Flower Girl Animation

[Hermes100]

Friend's

Please look at the wonderful animation ' flower girl' on youtube.

It certainly pulled at my heart string's.

I think everyone knows only too well that this sort of horrible thing here is only too common. Many on TV will support this by proxy ( I hope that is correct term) directly or indirectly

by paying for sexual liaison's or others.

I consider marrying poorer lady's much younger lady's to be in a similar vein- it's all about the male ego and taking advantage of impoverished people who are not doing what they would want to be out of choice, but necessity.

And/or taking advantage of this country's ridiculously hypocritical policy's towards women and the poor.

What a sad state of affair's and wouldn't it be nice if we all somehow could show that we really love this wonderful country and tried to do something positive about it .

How many darling little girl's (or boy's), hungry, lonely ,used and abused like her did any of us see today...and simply just 'walk on by'?

[Penkoprod]

It might be nice to have, at least, a link to click on, if not the actual Youtube video attached here.

These white on white videos get a bit boring after a while

(i assume you mean this one?):

Penkoprod

Edited June 22, 2011 by Penkoprod

[robblok]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but most clients will be Thais. To blame foreigners here while there is a much larger Asian clientele is so annoying. All those NGOS making money of it while depicting the situation wrongly as westerners being the biggest abusers.

Not saying this is a good thing.. but to say that if you pay for a legal girl you are helping pedofiles is going to far.

[Hermes100]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but most clients will be Thais. To blame foreigners here while there is a much larger Asian clientele is so annoying. All those NGOS making money of it while depicting the situation wrongly as westerners being the biggest abusers.

Not saying this is a good thing.. but to say that if you pay for a legal girl you are helping pedofiles is going to far.

Oh yes, you are quite right.

In fact matter's were far worse before Thailand became heavily westernized.

Human right's were appalling they are not that good right now.

Its because so many westerner's come here simply for sexual matter's that I would like to draw attention to this.

Thailand is synonymous for one thing and I am always amazed at the word play of "Bangkok" which is exactly what so many come here to do.

I would like those who pay the 'legal" (it is not legal is it?, and lets move beyond that and ask 'is it right'? ) girls to be fully aware of what they are doing.

And that simply is the perpetuation of this misery.

They are indirectly helping because they are taking advantage of someones need ( be it to eat ,live, send the mother and buffalo some baht's) that they cannot fulfill by socially accepted means.A failure of the Thai government .

They know this and offer the lady's a solution that I think is simply wrong.That solution is sex.

Regardless if its a 8 year old child , or a 30 year old bar girl( they have pretty much the same brain maturity anyway) they do not want/enjoy or should have to do this.

Doing this expose's them to danger of rape, murder,disease . In the long term it seriously affects them in many way's.None of them positive.

I blame westerns in part because we should know better we would not accept this back home ,yet, take advantage of it here.

Right, off to cowboy, writing all that diatribe has made me desperate for a good shag!

[robblok]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but most clients will be Thais. To blame foreigners here while there is a much larger Asian clientele is so annoying. All those NGOS making money of it while depicting the situation wrongly as westerners being the biggest abusers.

Not saying this is a good thing.. but to say that if you pay for a legal girl you are helping pedofiles is going to far.

Oh yes, you are quite right.

In fact matter's were far worse before Thailand became heavily westernized.

Human right's were appalling they are not that good right now.

Its because so many westerner's come here simply for sexual matter's that I would like to draw attention to this.

Thailand is synonymous for one thing and I am always amazed at the word play of "Bangkok" which is exactly what so many come here to do.

I would like those who pay the 'legal" (it is not legal is it?, and lets move beyond that and ask 'is it right'? ) girls to be fully aware of what they are doing.

And that simply is the perpetuation of this misery.

They are indirectly helping because they are taking advantage of someones need ( be it to eat ,live, send the mother and buffalo some baht's) that they cannot fulfill by socially accepted means.A failure of the Thai government .

They know this and offer the lady's a solution that I think is simply wrong.That solution is sex.

Regardless if its a 8 year old child , or a 30 year old bar girl( they have pretty much the same brain maturity anyway) they do not want/enjoy or should have to do this.

Doing this expose's them to danger of rape, murder,disease . In the long term it seriously affects them in many way's.None of them positive.

I blame westerns in part because we should know better we would not accept this back home ,yet, take advantage of it here.

Right, off to cowboy, writing all that diatribe has made me desperate for a good shag!

I dont go to those places.. im still not in bad shape. But i like it that people are free to sell sex (if they are of legal age). There are always other ways to make money they can choose that too. They don't

The world is never a fair place and there will always be income differences. I find it crazy to say that a all bar girls are stupid. Anyway you might know better as me because i don't see them that much. But i doubt if there is much variation from the normal populace.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

How many darling little girl's (or boy's), hungry, lonely ,used and abused like her did any of us see today...and simply just 'walk on by'?

About 10 or so I suppose. Most at traffic light intersections.

What do you suggest I do about it? (That's a serious question by the way).

I would like those who pay the 'legal" (it is not legal is it?, and lets move beyond that and ask 'is it right'? ) girls to be fully aware of what they are doing.

And that simply is the perpetuation of this misery.

They are indirectly helping because they are taking advantage of someones need ( be it to eat ,live, send the mother and buffalo some baht's) that they cannot fulfill by socially accepted means.A failure of the Thai government.

What do you suggest the Thai government does about it? (That's a serious question by the way).

As an aside, I think almost everyone on this forum would object to you mixing child sexual abuse with consensual sex work. You in the God Squad by any chance? Even if you are, JC used to hang with a hooker; I sometimes do too.

Regardless if its a 8 year old child , or a 30 year old bar girl( they have pretty much the same brain maturity anyway)

<deleted>.. Now I seriously suspect you're trolling. Not sure there's much point in taking this any further. Go find yourself some life experience.

Edited June 22, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Hermes100]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but most clients will be Thais. To blame foreigners here while there is a much larger Asian clientele is so annoying. All those NGOS making money of it while depicting the situation wrongly as westerners being the biggest abusers.

Not saying this is a good thing.. but to say that if you pay for a legal girl you are helping pedofiles is going to far.

Oh yes, you are quite right.

In fact matter's were far worse before Thailand became heavily westernized.

Human right's were appalling they are not that good right now.

Its because so many westerner's come here simply for sexual matter's that I would like to draw attention to this.

Thailand is synonymous for one thing and I am always amazed at the word play of "Bangkok" which is exactly what so many come here to do.

I would like those who pay the 'legal" (it is not legal is it?, and lets move beyond that and ask 'is it right'? ) girls to be fully aware of what they are doing.

And that simply is the perpetuation of this misery.

They are indirectly helping because they are taking advantage of someones need ( be it to eat ,live, send the mother and buffalo some baht's) that they cannot fulfill by socially accepted means.A failure of the Thai government .

They know this and offer the lady's a solution that I think is simply wrong.That solution is sex.

Regardless if its a 8 year old child , or a 30 year old bar girl( they have pretty much the same brain maturity anyway) they do not want/enjoy or should have to do this.

Doing this expose's them to danger of rape, murder,disease . In the long term it seriously affects them in many way's.None of them positive.

I blame westerns in part because we should know better we would not accept this back home ,yet, take advantage of it here.

Right, off to cowboy, writing all that diatribe has made me desperate for a good shag!

I dont go to those places.. im still not in bad shape. But i like it that people are free to sell sex (if they are of legal age). There are always other ways to make money they can choose that too. They don't

The world is never a fair place and there will always be income differences. I find it crazy to say that a all bar girls are stupid. Anyway you might know better as me because i don't see them that much. But i doubt if there is much variation from the normal populace.

I would also think its crazy to seriously say all bar girls are stupid-who said that?

In fact some of the smartest people I have had the pleasure to meet in Thailand are bar-girls.Many with heart's of gold.

I also agree about selling sex. Because ,like drug use,it is natural and no man made law can ,has, will ever change it. My country has one of lowest rates of crime attached to drug use ( violence) and sex abuse because of the laws that basically say " there's a time and a place and we know you have a need, just do so in the right way"

And its not really a choice simply because ,what else can they choose in order to feed themselves?

[Hermes100]

How many darling little girl's (or boy's), hungry, lonely ,used and abused like her did any of us see today...and simply just 'walk on by'?

About 10 or so I suppose. Most at traffic light intersections.

What do you suggest I do about it? (That's a serious question by the way).

I would like those who pay the 'legal" (it is not legal is it?, and lets move beyond that and ask 'is it right'? ) girls to be fully aware of what they are doing.

And that simply is the perpetuation of this misery.

They are indirectly helping because they are taking advantage of someones need ( be it to eat ,live, send the mother and buffalo some baht's) that they cannot fulfill by socially accepted means.A failure of the Thai government.

What do you suggest the Thai government does about it? (That's a serious question by the way).

As an aside, I think almost everyone on this forum would object to you mixing child sexual abuse with consensual sex work. You in the God Squad by any chance? Even if you are, JC used to hang with a hooker; I sometimes do too.

Regardless if its a 8 year old child , or a 30 year old bar girl( they have pretty much the same brain maturity anyway)

<deleted>.. Now I seriously suspect you're trolling. Not sure there's much point in taking this any further. Go find yourself some life experience.

First of all - please have a sense of humor you silly man!

It always surprise's me at how many person's here take things so seriously and then make some personal slight that they probably would not in person.

The comm net about " god-squad" was totally unnecessary and the sign of...... beside's we all know Jesus was in fact gay, He would never use the service's of a" hooker"!

I suspect I have had my fair share of life experience thank you. But I am still willing to learn and try and have an open mind.

Anyone can object that is freedom of speech. Something not legal here.

But people they really say that the two are not related at all?

And can they honestly can they think it is "right"?

Forget the law- by and large it is an ass.But we know inside us what is right and also what is wrong.

And so I submit to you that paying someone from a 3rd world nation to do something they would never choose to do in order to live in this day and age is simply wrong.

Would you agree?

Would you be happy to see you wife/sister/daughter have done to them what you pay lady's to allow you to do?

Consensual? You see, its not really like that.

These lady's often really do not have much choice.It is not like back home where the lady's choose to do this because they want more.

The lady's back at home are able to avail themselves to welfare and are much better taken care of.

This is a key point which I want to make- the lady's do it here to survive. To eat, to live,etc. To live.

Would you tell a drowning lady " I will save you, if you have sex with me"?

None of them really enjoy what they are doing in fact they hate it. And so, come's the rise of drug abuse, and with that the drug dealer,on and on, misery upon misery.

They do this to blot of what they have to do. Horrible is it not?

What would I suggest you do?

I am not going to suggest you stop using their service's, after all, you are human.

This,like the partaking of substance's is a human need.

I do suspect you have a genuine desire to do something.

Perhaps contribute to one of the many nice charity's there are that help lady's who have made an effort to leave that trade behind them.

You will feel better about yourself and one I went to recently had some really hot-babes there hanging out!

[Thongkorn]

I Totally agree with above comments , Some people do not want to believe when they see it, and some people only see what they want to .

I personally had an experience of a young girl who went to work as a bargirl because her parents where very poor, So she started to sell her only possession, her body , after a week she bought a drug to dull the pain of being used by sex tourists. unfortunately the tablet that she bought was packed with brick dust or talcom powder. or chalk. it caused her to go into a fit, then later into a coma. I took her to a Hospital in a Taxi, My friend and I who is a Thai (lady). went to visit her because she had nobody. She died on the third day of being in Hospital.The doctors told me that her brain had swollen and that even if she had recover she would have been brain damaged. I went through her bag which was on the table next to her bed, i found a piece of paper in her bag with a few telephone numbers on. i gave them to my Thai friend who went through them until she found one, which was her mothers phone number. My friend told her what had happened to her daughter.I can still hear the screams and crying of that girls mother,Her mother did not have any money to even come let alone recover the body to take her home. My friend and i gave a little money for the monks to come and take the Girl away and cremate her, After my friend had to get some monks in to bless the room where the girl stayed. when the monks arrived, some girls who worked nearby asked what was happening, my friend told them, Within about 30 minutes there where many girls that arrived and stayed for the blessing , and even though they did not know the girl, they all gave willingly for the Hospital bill, and for her cremation and for the monks to bless the room.The girl that died was just 19. she did not want to sell her body and did not want to be there, she had to to survive, she sold her only possession, her body. i will not enter into a discussion about this incident. I know its true and still have the pictures of the blessing. i will not name the bar or Soy it happened in because i have many" so called" sluts, Bargirls, and many other things which are looked on as low life, I regard them as human and my friends.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Thongkorn

[WinnieTheKhwai]

First of all - please have a sense of humor you silly man!

It always surprise's me at how many person's here take things so seriously and then make some personal slight that they probably would not in person.

Ah.. Out of all the topics that I could imagine having a humorous angle to them, child sexual abuse isn't one of them.. I apologise if we are just joking around.

And can they honestly can they think it is "right"?

Which value of 'it' are we discussing right now, child abuse consensual sex work between adults? As long as this line is blurred, no reasonable discussion can be had. Any comment in favor of legalizing sex work can then be taken out of context and be applied to raping children. Also the causes and solutions are very different. As different as buying a pack of cigarettes is from smuggling heroine, that kind of different.

And so I submit to you that paying someone from a 3rd world nation to do something they would never choose to do in order to live in this day and age is simply wrong. Would you agree?

Actually, no I wouldn't. Because she is actually choosing it. If for argument's sake I would also consider Thailand a 3rd world nation, then I am also living and working in that same 3rd world nation. Am I expected to take a plane to Hong Kong or Singapore (or even further out) before I am allowed to have a beer and chat up bar girls? (I do actually also do that when I'm in Hong Kong, but do I feel better when doing it in Hong Kong... Not really, no. )

Would you be happy to see you wife/sister/daughter have done to them what you pay lady's to allow you to do?

I would want the best possible career for them, and will do anything in my power to make her achieve everything she can. But that's me, and I have the means to make that happen. So for me to answer the question I have to now imagine being of very modest means, not able to provide a good formal education, and decide if I would be happier if she was working a construction site, factory or other very hazardous job for very low pay. Would I be happy knowing she was at a construction site at night? If that would make me happier than the though of her doing sex work, would I feel that happiness out of essentially selfish reasons relating to my own 'face', or because I truly thought she made a bad choice? Would I try to talk her out of it, and if I would, what would I say? No easy answers there. Having observed sex work up close for a really long time, I would say that some people are more suited to it than others. Some seem to do really well and 'prosper', for lack of a better word, others look and feel miserable. So my answer would be that it would depend on her personality, and that it would ultimately be her choice. If she is the person who would be miserable then I may try to talk her out of it yes, just like I would for any other job that is a very bad match. But if she prospers then I would make it her choice. And I would be happy at least in the knowledge that she made the choice that's best for her.

> These lady's often really do not have much choice.It is not like back home where the lady's choose to do this because they want more.

> This is a key point which I want to make- the lady's do it here to survive. To eat, to live,etc. To live.

Out of curiosity, have you actually been to Thailand yet for longer than a two week holiday? That's not a flame, just asking. It just seems you were pitched a story and are running with it.

> The lady's back at home are able to avail themselves to welfare and are much better taken care of.

I agree it would be great if Thailand had better social security. New opportunities in that respect may arise after next Sunday.

> Would you tell a drowning lady " I will save you, if you have sex with me"?

I'd say the odds are pretty good anyway after saving her.

[Beetlejuice]

Yes, very sad indeed.

The problem is that to many people the welfare of these children has little significance because they are part of an underclass that the authorities prefer to ignore and turn a blind eye to in the hope that the problem can be swept under the carpet and not brought into public scrutiny.

The strength to help these children must come from the will of the Government and the majority of the general public.

Except for bringing the plight of these children to the attention of the public as this video for example, there is very little else we can do as individuals.

[Hermes100]

I Totally agree with above comments , Some people do not want to believe when they see it, and some people only see what they want to .

I personally had an experience of a young girl who went to work as a bargirl because her parents where very poor, So she started to sell her only possession, her body , after a week she bought a drug to dull the pain of being used by sex tourists. unfortunately the tablet that she bought was packed with brick dust or talcom powder. or chalk. it caused her to go into a fit, then later into a coma. I took her to a Hospital in a Taxi, My friend and I who is a Thai (lady). went to visit her because she had nobody. She died on the third day of being in Hospital.The doctors told me that her brain had swollen and that even if she had recover she would have been brain damaged. I went through her bag which was on the table next to her bed, i found a piece of paper in her bag with a few telephone numbers on. i gave them to my Thai friend who went through them until she found one, which was her mothers phone number. My friend told her what had happened to her daughter.I can still hear the screams and crying of that girls mother,Her mother did not have any money to even come let alone recover the body to take her home. My friend and i gave a little money for the monks to come and take the Girl away and cremate her, After my friend had to get some monks in to bless the room where the girl stayed. when the monks arrived, some girls who worked nearby asked what was happening, my friend told them, Within about 30 minutes there where many girls that arrived and stayed for the blessing , and even though they did not know the girl, they all gave willingly for the Hospital bill, and for her cremation and for the monks to bless the room.The girl that died was just 19. she did not want to sell her body and did not want to be there, she had to to survive, she sold her only possession, her body. i will not enter into a discussion about this incident. I know its true and still have the pictures of the blessing. i will not name the bar or Soy it happened in because i have many" so called" sluts, Bargirls, and many other things which are looked on as low life, I regard them as human and my friends.

A tragic case. All too common I am sure. Thank you for this post.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I Totally agree with above comments , Some people do not want to believe when they see it, and some people only see what they want to .

I personally had an experience of a young girl who went to work as a bargirl because her parents where very poor, So she started to sell her only possession, her body , after a week she bought a drug to dull the pain of being used by sex tourists. unfortunately the tablet that she bought was packed with brick dust or talcom powder. or chalk. it caused her to go into a fit, then later into a coma. I took her to a Hospital in a Taxi, My friend and I who is a Thai (lady). went to visit her because she had nobody. She died on the third day of being in Hospital.The doctors told me that her brain had swollen and that even if she had recover she would have been brain damaged. I went through her bag which was on the table next to her bed, i found a piece of paper in her bag with a few telephone numbers on. i gave them to my Thai friend who went through them until she found one, which was her mothers phone number. My friend told her what had happened to her daughter.I can still hear the screams and crying of that girls mother,Her mother did not have any money to even come let alone recover the body to take her home. My friend and i gave a little money for the monks to come and take the Girl away and cremate her, After my friend had to get some monks in to bless the room where the girl stayed. when the monks arrived, some girls who worked nearby asked what was happening, my friend told them, Within about 30 minutes there where many girls that arrived and stayed for the blessing , and even though they did not know the girl, they all gave willingly for the Hospital bill, and for her cremation and for the monks to bless the room.The girl that died was just 19. she did not want to sell her body and did not want to be there, she had to to survive, she sold her only possession, her body. i will not enter into a discussion about this incident. I know its true and still have the pictures of the blessing. i will not name the bar or Soy it happened in because i have many" so called" sluts, Bargirls, and many other things which are looked on as low life, I regard them as human and my friends.

A tragic case. All too common I am sure. Thank you for this post.

Agreed. Though I don't think a freak meds incident directly related to the work, or is more common than incidents in jobs that involve hazards every minute of the day; imagine being a motorcycle pizza courier (or any kind of messenger) in Bangkok, construction worker with local safety standards (or lack thereof) and so on. Far too many tragic cases.

[Hermes100]

First of all - please have a sense of humor you silly man!

I first visited Thailand in early 80's.

I have probably spent apx 8 years here in total. But not all of it in Bangkok. I like the quiet south. Where did "two week holiday come from"?

Was it one of those sort of clever TV cheap shot's I see all too much of? It would be nice if we could focus on the subject and not throw cheap shots to each other from behind cover as it were. And that one kinda missed did it not?

Sorry if my humor however misguided was out of order. Sometimes its a case of laugh or cry for me.

But I still cannot agree that they are 'choosing it" because a better life style is not afforded to them.

A huge percentage of these girls have taken /are taking /forced to take drugs that may fool others into thinking they are actually choosing and enjoying what they do. So,in a way, we are part of this destructive cycle .

Is it not the case that true choice comes from having good option's. Do they have good option's? Could we help them get better option's?

Does anyone honestly think they enjoy having sex with some sweaty overweight person and that they would choose to sleep with a man old enough to be their father if they had a real choice.

Perhaps they enjoy destroying their physical and mental health by dangerous sex practice and drug abuse. Look at their eyes before they wander into the back and tell me what you really see.

Disgust, shame, regret,yes, I can see this is a real choice indeed.

In these case's it's a forced and loaded by circumstance option.

I could not really get through the rest of your mail, but I do thank you for your opinion and lets all agree on one thing that we would like thing's to improve at least.

I see many replys loaded with guilt ( hence the not so smart and failed retort's) because no doubt I have pricked a few conscious ,I myself am far from innocent .I think it would be nice to simply somehow accept the past ,perhaps we are more defined by what we do, rather than what we have done...not sure on this one myself, I read it somewhere and it seems apt, but at the same time let's all try and do something a little more positive for the future. Thank you.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I first visited Thailand in early 80's.

I have probably spent apx 8 years here in total. But not all of it in Bangkok. I like the quiet south. Where did "two week holiday come from"?

I was wondering because you claimed that sex workers by and large were not freely choosing it but being forced out of necessity, and implying that they would not have enough money to even feed themselves otherwise. And claimed to know that sadness is clearly visible when going with a sex worker. "look into their eyes". You should have learned that this is not the case, and that anyone able and willing to live a modest life does not have to resort to sex work. Exceptions may include people with large debts, perhaps due to gambling or other misfortunes in life. From personal observation I don't see that a lot though, it's mostly that the pay-out is just significantly more reasonable doing sex work compared to working the long hours in dangerous jobs that are available. And of course the incredible grey area of people doing sex work not full time but are more 'opportunity sex workers', women becoming mia nois and suchlike. There's a so much hiddne prostitution that it's actually very hard to draw a line somewhere. Also look at all the Internet based prostitution; this scene is incredibly large now and completely cuts out entertainment venues from the sex-work business model. (Speaking personally, the entertainment is the main attraction so I'm not very likely to either curb-crawl or site-crawl.)

> But I still cannot agree that they are 'choosing it" because a better life style is not afforded to them.

> A huge percentage of these girls have taken /are taking /forced to take drugs that may fool others into

> thinking they are actually choosing and enjoying what they do. So,in a way, we are part of this destructive cycle .

In those 8 years in Thailand, did you ever come across a case of a sex worker being forced to take drugs? Because I haven't. Drugs were pretty common 5-6-7 years ago as they were so affordable. I don't see a lot of drug use these days, other than alcohol. Alcohol actually remains one of the main risks in this line of work.

> Is it not the case that true choice comes from having good option's. Do they have good option's?

> Could we help them get better option's?

Absolutely. I completely agree with that. Some NGOs are being very genuine about providing options without actively trying to force people out of doing sex work, or making it seem sinful. A very good example is www.empowerfoundation.org. Ultimately though, in Thailand as in any other country, sex work will pay significantly more than most jobs. So it's a hard sell to get people go back to farming, or cleaning up my house for 300 baht a day. A successful sex worker can earn as much as a doctor, I had a recent experience where spending close to an hour with a top doctor at Bumrungrat cost pretty much the same as spending that amount of time with a very average sex worker from a beer garden nearby. Good luck convincing that girl to go plant rice or sell noodles.

> Does anyone honestly think they enjoy having sex with some sweaty overweight person and that they would

> choose to sleep with a man old enough to be their father if they had a real choice.

It's called 'sex work' for a reason. I wouldn't be working on my job either if I had a real choice. And again, we don't ask ourselves if the pizza delivery guy enjoys bringing me a pizza, or if the maid enjoys cleaning up my mess, or the worker breathing in all kinds of crap doing some home improvement work for me. To a large extent you're arguing against capitalism. (Which is fair enough, just realize that this is what you're doing.)

> Perhaps they enjoy destroying their physical and mental health by dangerous sex practice and drug abuse.

> Look at their eyes before they wander into the back and tell me what you really see.

I can only assume you tried that a couple times to know this? Anyway I would not want any service from any person who is clearly miserable providing it. That applies to everything from getting my house cleaned to getting a hair cut. There should be enough mutual respect to have it not be an exploitive proposition. If you did actually use the services of a sex worker more than once or twice then you would likely see that the sex workers tends to be very happy, if only to get the 'sale'. So if it is financially worthwhile then that's par for the course. You state stuff like 'look in their eyes and tell me what you see', as if a sex worker, or any other service provider, would not be happy at least financially to get the sale!

> I could not really get through the rest of your mail, but I do thank you for your opinion and

<deleted>.. why am I writing this then? First you claim to be joking, then to express great concern for sex workers, but now you can't even bother to read a reply? Guess I can stop too then.

Edited June 23, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Beetlejuice]

I first visited Thailand in early 80's.

I have probably spent apx 8 years here in total. But not all of it in Bangkok. I like the quiet south. Where did "two week holiday come from"?

I was wondering because you claimed that sex workers by and large were not freely choosing it but being forced out of necessity, and implying that they would not have enough money to even feed themselves otherwise. And claimed to know that sadness is clearly visible when going with a sex worker. "look into their eyes". You should have learned that this is not the case, and that anyone able and willing to live a modest life does not have to resort to sex work. Exceptions may include people with large debts, perhaps due to gambling or other misfortunes in life. From personal observation I don't see that a lot though, it's mostly that the pay-out is just significantly more reasonable doing sex work compared to working the long hours in dangerous jobs that are available. And of course the incredible grey area of people doing sex work not full time but are more 'opportunity sex workers', women becoming mia nois and suchlike. There's a so much hiddne prostitution that it's actually very hard to draw a line somewhere. Also look at all the Internet based prostitution; this scene is incredibly large now and completely cuts out entertainment venues from the sex-work business model. (Speaking personally, the entertainment is the main attraction so I'm not very likely to either curb-crawl or site-crawl.)

> But I still cannot agree that they are 'choosing it" because a better life style is not afforded to them.

> A huge percentage of these girls have taken /are taking /forced to take drugs that may fool others into

> thinking they are actually choosing and enjoying what they do. So,in a way, we are part of this destructive cycle .

In those 8 years in Thailand, did you ever come across a case of a sex worker being forced to take drugs? Because I haven't. Drugs were pretty common 5-6-7 years ago as they were so affordable. I don't see a lot of drug use these days, other than alcohol. Alcohol actually remains one of the main risks in this line of work.

> Is it not the case that true choice comes from having good option's. Do they have good option's?

> Could we help them get better option's?

Absolutely. I completely agree with that. Some NGOs are being very genuine about providing options without actively trying to force people out of doing sex work, or making it seem sinful. A very good example is www.empowerfoundation.org. Ultimately though, in Thailand as in any other country, sex work will pay significantly more than most jobs. So it's a hard sell to get people go back to farming, or cleaning up my house for 300 baht a day. A successful sex worker can earn as much as a doctor, I had a recent experience where spending close to an hour with a top doctor at Bumrungrat cost pretty much the same as spending that amount of time with a very average sex worker from a beer garden nearby. Good luck convincing that girl to go plant rice or sell noodles.

> Does anyone honestly think they enjoy having sex with some sweaty overweight person and that they would

> choose to sleep with a man old enough to be their father if they had a real choice.

It's called 'sex work' for a reason. I wouldn't be working on my job either if I had a real choice. And again, we don't ask ourselves if the pizza delivery guy enjoys bringing me a pizza, or if the maid enjoys cleaning up my mess, or the worker breathing in all kinds of crap doing some home improvement work for me. To a large extent you're arguing against capitalism. (Which is fair enough, just realize that this is what you're doing.)

> Perhaps they enjoy destroying their physical and mental health by dangerous sex practice and drug abuse.

> Look at their eyes before they wander into the back and tell me what you really see.

I can only assume you tried that a couple times to know this? Anyway I would not want any service from any person who is clearly miserable providing it. That applies to everything from getting my house cleaned to getting a hair cut. There should be enough mutual respect to have it not be an exploitive proposition. If you did actually use the services of a sex worker more than once or twice then you would likely see that the sex workers tends to be very happy, if only to get the 'sale'. So if it is financially worthwhile then that's par for the course. You state stuff like 'look in their eyes and tell me what you see', as if a sex worker, or any other service provider, would not be happy at least financially to get the sale!

> I could not really get through the rest of your mail, but I do thank you for your opinion and

<deleted>.. why am I writing this then? First you claim to be joking, then to express great concern for sex workers, but now you can't even bother to read a reply? Guess I can stop too then.

Firstly, the cases of able and willing legal age sex workers, slave sex workers and the abuse of children cannot be placed into the same category. Women forced into prostitution and children are victims

Pertaining to the majority of sex workers, the able and willing legal age prostitutes, I am glad you wrote this reply.

Because what you say is absolutely the truth and fact. A very informative post and your best yet.

Sex sells and sex pays. It is a fact and not just a dirty little secret that millions of women worldwide are willing to use their bodies in order to obtain money or to make a living.

They are not exploited, coerced, or forced into that choice any more than those that choose other occupations.

Just to make clear, prostitution, although is still recognised as the oldest profession, will never gain credibility or be classified as a bona fide occupation. It is still placed firmly in the tramp, beggar bracket and the women involved frowned upon by society, even if some women’s groups and charity organisations try to portray them as victims of circumstance.

It`s just the way it is.

[Hermes100]

Friends...

Please have a look at the photo I tried to attach. It really seemed to tug at my heartstrings.I wonder what the future hold's for this dear little girl. Hunger/loneliness/sickness/despair/sexual abuse/drug intake/mental depression......................I am sure we can all agree, none of it very nice.

All those thing's are highly probable for her.90% of the lady we see at the bar's were once like her in some way.

Our pleasure is their pain.

The reward/gratification we get is so short ( and these day's it getting even shorter for me!) compared to their prolonged misery.

Our patronage fuels a whole horrible trade and train of event's that will most likely befall this little girl.

Those human trafficker's will go and buy someone like her, rape her, ,take her away from her family and friend's ( I can quite honestly tell you I feel a teardrop coming on right now, silly old softy I am !) force her to take drug's so they can blot out reality and pretend to enjoy what we do to them .

I just woke up one day and asked myself 'what am I doing here"? I am just as ' guilty" as many others,if indeed that is the correct term. I just want others to be a bit more aware and if possible, give a little something back.

I have thought deeply about this and would certainly welcome any positive advice /suggestions.

I think it is an illusion of choice. When we choose we either base our choice's on A- moving towards pleasure/gain/postive etc B- away from from pain/further lose/negative ( according to NLP study's).

The lady's here are strictly B.

If we spent a fraction of the amount we on ourselves we could help them be able to make better choice's. We want a better world do we not? Let's all do something then( please)

Who among you would really not like to be able to do that?

Who could look at little girl like this and deny her the ability to avoid such misery if she choose. She most definitely would never choose the path that may one day lead her to pouring us a drink cowboy if she had the option.

We can help with that option.

There will always be prostitution. But let's at least try and make for those lady's who want more.Who are in the cat A. Not the cat B.

Let's try and make it they do not choose to sell their body's so they can eat, send moneys back home, avoid beating's, pay for more drug's that they take in order to cope with what they do....

This in my mind is simply very sad and wrong.

I suppose in some way we are all prisoner's of our DNA. Its natural to want to have some fun.But at what expense? And can we have fun and yet do so in perhaps a better way?

I think we can. So now I support a charity which help's lady's who have decided to walk away based in Pattaya ( run by some lovely people) and sponsor some educational event's.

I divert some of my pension towards these thing's and I am happy to say it brings me much joy.

I have the strong feeling that even those who tried to score a point against me and make thing's personal ( really there is no need for that.And besides let's stay on the matter at hand) would actually like to help too.

I am quite willing to admit my rum fueled rant's confuse even me at time's and I may be wrong about many thing's( it would certainly not be the first time!), but please let's all just remember the plight of that little girl and agree we would like to help her avoid something we help bring upon her and think about giving a little something back.

One thing I can promise you all- you would all feel much better for doing so.

Thank you all.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Friends...

Please have a look at the photo I tried to attach. It really seemed to tug at my heartstrings.

Hermes, it's a severely photoshopped image intended to get a response on something. It's specifically designed to tug heartstrings, probably with the best of intentions.

I don't mind "effective visual communications" such as the image you posted, but when having discussions you can't just post a sad image and expect it to magically illustrate any point you wish to make. It just doesn't work that way.

Edited June 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

All those thing's are highly probable for her.90% of the lady we see at the bar's were once like her in some way.

Source?

Those human trafficker's will go and buy someone like her, rape her, ,take her away from her family and friend's ( I can quite honestly tell you I feel a teardrop coming on right now, silly old softy I am !) force her to take drug's so they can blot out reality and pretend to enjoy what we do to them .

I don't doubt your sincerity, but on a forum with clued in people who mostly live in Thailand it just doesn't fly. Try it on forums where people visit who've never been here, it'll likely work.

I don't want to sound harsh, but excuse me for not joining you on some epic guilt-trip.

I am quite willing to admit my rum fueled rant's confuse even me at time's and I may be wrong about many thing's( it would certainly not be the first time!), but please let's all just remember the plight of that little girl

Wait, you plug in 'smiling slum girl" into Google Images and one of the resulting picture collection makes a point? I can do that. : https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=smiling+slum+girl

[IanForbes]

I tend to believe what WinnietheKwai said on this subject. I have spent a LOT of time in Hill tribe villages while on fishing trips in Thailand. The children all seem loved and well cared for. I've got hundreds of photos to back that up. However, I do see the children beggers every night in all the major cities. Most are "owned" by Mafia gangs and used as pawns to be milked for as long as they can con unsuspecting tourists into giving them something. They mostly live in squalid conditions around every major city and tourist destination. Very few of them ever go to school because they are still out begging at midnight most evenings. This little girl was left all alone to sit in the street by herself with a cup to collect whatever money she ccould. She couldn't have been any older than 3 or 4 years old. There wasn't an adult in sight... because I stood there watching for 10 minutes just to see what happened. She was still there alone 2 hours later when I came back from the bar. And there STILL wasn't an adult in sight... other than myself. If that isn't child abuse then what is. But, there is nothing I can do as a farang in a foreign country that doesn't even want me here.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ Now that's sad.

No other words for it. Nothing to do with bars, but I fully agree that's child abuse.

[Thongkorn]

The Thai Government use to have TV adverts telling people not to give to beggars, because most where under the control of the local Mafias. Children use to be abducted and sold to these gangs.Their use to be cases of Some of the Gangs deliberately dis figuring children to make them look more pitiful so the would get More cash. i have heard of cases where some woman has borrowed a small child to go begging.

[seriouseats]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but most clients will be Thais. To blame foreigners here while there is a much larger Asian clientele is so annoying. All those NGOS making money of it while depicting the situation wrongly as westerners being the biggest abusers.

Not saying this is a good thing.. but to say that if you pay for a legal girl you are helping pedofiles is going to far.

Oh yes, you are quite right.

In fact matter's were far worse before Thailand became heavily westernized.

Human right's were appalling they are not that good right now.

Its because so many westerner's come here simply for sexual matter's that I would like to draw attention to this.

Thailand is synonymous for one thing and I am always amazed at the word play of "Bangkok" which is exactly what so many come here to do.

I would like those who pay the 'legal" (it is not legal is it?, and lets move beyond that and ask 'is it right'? ) girls to be fully aware of what they are doing.

And that simply is the perpetuation of this misery.

They are indirectly helping because they are taking advantage of someones need ( be it to eat ,live, send the mother and buffalo some baht's) that they cannot fulfill by socially accepted means.A failure of the Thai government .

They know this and offer the lady's a solution that I think is simply wrong.That solution is sex.

Regardless if its a 8 year old child , or a 30 year old bar girl( they have pretty much the same brain maturity anyway) they do not want/enjoy or should have to do this.

Doing this expose's them to danger of rape, murder,disease . In the long term it seriously affects them in many way's.None of them positive.

I blame westerns in part because we should know better we would not accept this back home ,yet, take advantage of it here.

Right, off to cowboy, writing all that diatribe has made me desperate for a good shag!

So many of these girls were offered a way out and they'd rather stay there.. Please do not talk BS about this subject.

The best example i have is my old friend's gf.. he came here.. Chose 9-10 freelancers, juggled them untill he met her.. she wasnt a real freelancer(way too good looking) after a while they got together and staid for more than 2years. On xmas she went to see one of her 10x very rich and attractive ex's while he was waiting at home, not knowing. Then one day he left the country for work for 3months and gave her a ton of money.. she spent it fast and got a legit job (while studying).. She still spent her days in farang bars when she had a 25 year old guy with tons of money and a future.

fast forward to this year.. She's moved to pattaya, hanging around gogo's and disco's.. talking to fat old guys.. she's getting older and in 4-5 years she'll be ~30 with no way out. She has no asset and her english is getting worse by hanging with depraved men now instead of rich, educated good looking guys.

I got a ton of hilarious examples on top of that, most of them are girls who never took a fee for the night but they still sleep around to find farang men so imo, tis all the same.. but ill keep them formyself this time.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The above illustrates very well why you can't have a discussion on child abuse if you start mixing it up with tourist bars.

I don't think this discussion has any place to go now. Maybe sometime we can raise child / trafficked beggars as a topic. (The bar thing comes up a couple times a month anyway.)

[seriouseats]

i was just relating the fact that he doesnt know anything about older women so he shouldnt even start opening topics about child abuse.

There is NO LINK WHATSOEVER link to a forced child slave and a bargirl. I'd go as far as saying that only a sociopath would think both of these people can fit into the same category.. a willing sexual pleasurer and a desperate slave.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

i was just relating the fact that he doesnt know anything about older women so he shouldnt even start opening topics about child abuse.

There is NO LINK WHATSOEVER link to a forced child slave and a bargirl. I'd go as far as saying that only a sociopath would think both of these people can fit into the same category.. a willing sexual pleasurer and a desperate slave.

Agreed.

I think it's actually malicious to blur these two into one when done on purpose (such as NGOs trying this for funding purposes, or for faith based reasoning.) For one thing it does actual abused children no favors when there is no accurate focus on facts, causes and solutions.

[Thongkorn]

i was just relating the fact that he doesnt know anything about older women so he shouldnt even start opening topics about child abuse.

There is NO LINK WHATSOEVER link to a forced child slave and a bargirl. I'd go as far as saying that only a sociopath would think both of these people can fit into the same category.. a willing sexual pleasurer and a desperate slave.

At what age does a small person become an Adult, and there are many young girls who are forced into the sex trade, thats the link. many are not willing, even some of the older ones , you do not seem to understand abuse is abuse at any age. to anybody.

[GM1955]

i was just relating the fact that he doesnt know anything about older women so he shouldnt even start opening topics about child abuse.

There is NO LINK WHATSOEVER link to a forced child slave and a bargirl. I'd go as far as saying that only a sociopath would think both of these people can fit into the same category.. a willing sexual pleasurer and a desperate slave.

Yeah but you seem to take a very aggressive stance against the OP, wonder if you'd do that to the OP in real life ?

Thought so.

Edited June 26, 2011 by GM1955

[seriouseats]

No one but children are forced into sex slave. This is why a lot of us despise farangs with those girls and those girls. They made their choices.

Unless you think that a girl leaving her family home for some thai bad boy and then him telling her to sell herself or he'll leave her is slavery.

[GM1955]

No one but children are forced into sex slave. This is why a lot of us despise farangs with those girls and those girls. They made their choices.

Unless you think that a girl leaving her family home for some thai bad boy and then him telling her to sell herself or he'll leave her is slavery.

Trying to justify farangs flying thousands of Kms to exploit poor Thai women ?