Agent Orange / Dioxins In Thailand, Laos Or Cambodia?

[italian2011]

Hello, this is a serious and important topic so I would appreciate if any reply would be strictly on topic avoiding trolling responses, thank you.

While searching for an area to live in Thailand, I wonder if the USA had contaminated any area either in Thailand or in Cambodia and Laos with the highly toxic Agent Orange.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Agent_Orange

http://www.usatoday....e-Cleanup_n.htm

As you may know, dioxins last for many many decades and recently in North Queensland (Australia) it was discovered that the high numbers of cancers and leukemia in a particular town were linked to the fact that US Army washed all equipment for storage of Agent Orange (which was used in the Vietnam war) in the town water supply. Unfortunately no one bothered testing the water for Agent Orange and dioxins (since it seems it is a very expensive test) until in 2008.

If that chemical was used, then it is possible that town water is still contaminated, therefore I would like to know if any area of Thailand, especially near the border with Cambodia and Laos, stored the Agent Orange or even worse it was used on their land.

Within this thread I'd also like to hear about the quality of your town water, wherever in Thailand you live or if you need to drink bottled water, and if so, where does it come from.

Thank you

[italian2011]

Meanwhile I already can answer to my earlier question, sadly with a yes.

http://www.vspa.com/k9/Downloads/Chronology%20of%20Herbicides%20in%20Thailand.pdf

http://www.vspa.com/k9/ao_thailand.htm

So, now, it's just a matter of finding the exact areas and the current environmental impact, hopefully people living locally know something about this.

Thanks

[metisdead]

A post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered “fair use” and not a violation of copyright.

[Atmos]

Hi - if you Google search on "agent orange new plymouth" and "dioxin new plymouth" you will find many results relating to investigations carried out in my old home town New Plymouth, New Zealand relating to the local Ivon Watkins Dow (now Dow Chemicals) plant there that manufactured 2,4-D and 2,4,5,T the active ingredients of Agent Orange, from 1960 to as late as 1987. This may help you with information about the consequences of AO.

In New Plymouth there have been many studies, denials, more studies, more denials, on the high rates of birth defects and death rates in the surrounding areas.

"Dioxin, the defoliant's deadly component, can cause an increased risk of cancers, immunodeficiencies, reproductive and developmental changes, nervous system problems and other health problems, according to medical experts."

Published on Sunday, January 9, 2005 by Agence France Presse

New Zealand Confirms Supplying Agent Orange in Vietnam War

AUCKLAND - New Zealand supplied Agent Orange chemicals to the United States military during the Vietnam war, a government minister has revealed.

The disclosure led to immediate claims that New Zealand was in breach of the Geneva convention and could face a flood of lawsuits from veterans and Vietnamese.

Transport Minister Harry Duynhoven said the highly toxic chemical was sent to a United States base in the Philippines during the 1960s

[afarang]

There is so much secrecy surrounding this issue, that I doubt we will ever get to the truth. I can find no evidence that says A.O. was used in Thailand. But that could be the secrecy involved. I do not understand why A.O. was found at Hua Hin. I don't think that H.H. was used , by the Americans , to fly raids over Vietnam.Too far away. My understanding is that the main air base was Udon Thani. Definitely ,most heavy bombing raids emanated from there,as the runway was built specifically for that purpose. Was A.O. stored or flown from there? I don't know. Would dearly love to.But I have my doubts. The other air base of interest was at Ubon Ratchathani. I believe it was a smaller base ,and the planes required to dump A.O. would not have required such runway lengths as U.T..and so, may have used U.R.,as their A.O. base. But I have no proof. The other really nasty thing about U.T, was that any bombs still in the bomb bay, meant the plane could not land, so they very kindly dumped them on Laos. Until the bomb bay was empty. Then they were allowed to land.

[kerryk]

There is so much secrecy surrounding this issue, that I doubt we will ever get to the truth. I can find no evidence that says A.O. was used in Thailand. But that could be the secrecy involved. I do not understand why A.O. was found at Hua Hin. I don't think that H.H. was used , by the Americans , to fly raids over Vietnam.Too far away. My understanding is that the main air base was Udon Thani. Definitely ,most heavy bombing raids emanated from there,as the runway was built specifically for that purpose. Was A.O. stored or flown from there? I don't know. Would dearly love to.But I have my doubts. The other air base of interest was at Ubon Ratchathani. I believe it was a smaller base ,and the planes required to dump A.O. would not have required such runway lengths as U.T..and so, may have used U.R.,as their A.O. base. But I have no proof. The other really nasty thing about U.T, was that any bombs still in the bomb bay, meant the plane could not land, so they very kindly dumped them on Laos. Until the bomb bay was empty. Then they were allowed to land.

I can't think of any reason not to drop bombs over a target as the plane was lighter without the bombs and flew faster to get out of a combat area. Go in drop the bombs and go home to Thai gf at base and have a beer.

[geriatrickid]

Sufficient time has past between the possible application of Agent Orange and 2011 to minimize the risk to humans living in an area where it may have been applied.

I suggest you concern yourself more with the herbicides that are being used today. Look at where the large power pylons are. Chances are that those corridors will have discernible residues of potent of herbicides. You are also more likely to have contamination from agricultural waste, heavy metals and pesticides in your water supply than agent orange. it is recommended that a person verify his/her well water quality regularly.

Large parts of Thailand recently experienced catastrophic flooding that saw chemical and fuel storage facilities breached and water treatment plants washed out. The substances from these exposures had to go somewhere and the damage has yet to be quantified. Let me put it another way; Since the massive flooding has there been any public discussion of what happened to the sewage runoffs from humans and farms, the gas storage tanks and the chemical tanks? Has there been any large scale assessment of the damage that resulted in Thailand? To the best of my knowledge, the answer is no.

[afarang]

There is so much secrecy surrounding this issue, that I doubt we will ever get to the truth. I can find no evidence that says A.O. was used in Thailand. But that could be the secrecy involved. I do not understand why A.O. was found at Hua Hin. I don't think that H.H. was used , by the Americans , to fly raids over Vietnam.Too far away. My understanding is that the main air base was Udon Thani. Definitely ,most heavy bombing raids emanated from there,as the runway was built specifically for that purpose. Was A.O. stored or flown from there? I don't know. Would dearly love to.But I have my doubts. The other air base of interest was at Ubon Ratchathani. I believe it was a smaller base ,and the planes required to dump A.O. would not have required such runway lengths as U.T..and so, may have used U.R.,as their A.O. base. But I have no proof. The other really nasty thing about U.T, was that any bombs still in the bomb bay, meant the plane could not land, so they very kindly dumped them on Laos. Until the bomb bay was empty. Then they were allowed to land.

I can't think of any reason not to drop bombs over a target as the plane was lighter without the bombs and flew faster to get out of a combat area. Go in drop the bombs and go home to Thai gf at base and have a beer.

Laos was not a target .Vietnam was.So you think that killing ,maiming , wounding countless thousands of Laotians is or was acceptable behaviour?

[Ijustwannateach]

When I was a child, there was a man in our neighborhood that I remember my parents talking about sympathetically. He had been a soldier fighting in Viet Nam and had been exposed to A.O., and was still suffering from various unusual nerve disorders as a result and couldn't work. That's no proof, of course, but these kinds of stories are so common that I think for Americans it's considered a common knowledge item.

[kerryk]

There is so much secrecy surrounding this issue, that I doubt we will ever get to the truth. I can find no evidence that says A.O. was used in Thailand. But that could be the secrecy involved. I do not understand why A.O. was found at Hua Hin. I don't think that H.H. was used , by the Americans , to fly raids over Vietnam.Too far away. My understanding is that the main air base was Udon Thani. Definitely ,most heavy bombing raids emanated from there,as the runway was built specifically for that purpose. Was A.O. stored or flown from there? I don't know. Would dearly love to.But I have my doubts. The other air base of interest was at Ubon Ratchathani. I believe it was a smaller base ,and the planes required to dump A.O. would not have required such runway lengths as U.T..and so, may have used U.R.,as their A.O. base. But I have no proof. The other really nasty thing about U.T, was that any bombs still in the bomb bay, meant the plane could not land, so they very kindly dumped them on Laos. Until the bomb bay was empty. Then they were allowed to land.

I can't think of any reason not to drop bombs over a target as the plane was lighter without the bombs and flew faster to get out of a combat area. Go in drop the bombs and go home to Thai gf at base and have a beer.

Laos was not a target .Vietnam was.So you think that killing ,maiming , wounding countless thousands of Laotians is or was acceptable behaviour?

Your statement is completely in error.

Laos was the key to the Vietnam war and was certainly a target. The majority of the Ho Chi Minh trail, the route that supplies were moved from North to South Vietnam was in Laos. The Americans bombed Laos daily for years to prevent supplies from reaching the North Vietnamese Army fighting in South Vietnam.

Thailand was also very concerned with Laos and US troops were first deployed to Thailand in 1962 as a result of the Laotian civil war. Check your history of the SEATO treaty. Britain even deployed combat units to Thailand during that period.

For some interesting reading check out Thai troops and the Plain of Jars in Laos.

[kerryk]

When I was a child, there was a man in our neighborhood that I remember my parents talking about sympathetically. He had been a soldier fighting in Viet Nam and had been exposed to A.O., and was still suffering from various unusual nerve disorders as a result and couldn't work. That's no proof, of course, but these kinds of stories are so common that I think for Americans it's considered a common knowledge item.

There was a struggle for years between the VA and veterans of the Vietnam war about who was covered under VA health care and what parts of Vietnam were exposed. The last I heard was that anyone who served in Vietnam is now covered for diseases that were caused by exposure to agent orange.

I don't know about veterans who were stationed in Thailand. I am sure someone here does.

The list of diseases covered from exposure to agent orange is significant. But as geriatrickid said there is no evidence of current danger from agent orange applied 40 years ago. Someone more up to date with the American VFW than I am sure can explain but I have read that you may be treated in Thailand for diseases caused by agent orange and be reimbursed by the VA.

[IMA_FARANG]

As a Vietnam vet...5 years in the military there and 2 years as a civilian working for a U.S. contractor employed by the U.S. Army....(no I didn't get the those numbers wrong, I was in Vietnam for a total of nearly 7 years between 1965 and 1972)... I just learned abaout 10 years ago that for much of that Army time one of the compounds I was working/living in was rotinely sprayed with an "herbicide" to keep the weed growth down, that we now know was in fact Agent Orange. It took a federal Freedom of Information Act suit to get the U.S. goverment; and specfically the U.S. Army to reveal what they did at that compound just outside of Saigon in 1963 to 1971. Those of us who asked questions at that time were told that it was just a "herbicide" that they were spraying to keep the area free of weeds. It was in fact Agent Orange. To be fair, at that time the military command had been told it was "safe", and that's why it's use was authoised to clear weeds.

I expect, if you could ever manage to get an investigation started, you would find that Utapao airbase in Thailand routinely stored Agent Orange for trans-shipment to Vietnam also...but I doubt anyone will ever bother to investigate that now. If not for the simple reason that no Thai government wants to re-open such a now painful wound from that long ago.

To paraphrase an old saying, "Better to let the lieing dogs sleep".

[italian2011]

A post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered "fair use" and not a violation of copyright.

I'm sorry, I did not know about such rule, can I re-post it in the way you just explained, as I think it really explains a lot of things about this topic.

Thanks

[italian2011]

Sufficient time has past between the possible application of Agent Orange and 2011 to minimize the risk to humans living in an area where it may have been applied.

I suggest you concern yourself more with the herbicides that are being used today. Look at where the large power pylons are. Chances are that those corridors will have discernible residues of potent of herbicides. You are also more likely to have contamination from agricultural waste, heavy metals and pesticides in your water supply than agent orange. it is recommended that a person verify his/her well water quality regularly.

Large parts of Thailand recently experienced catastrophic flooding that saw chemical and fuel storage facilities breached and water treatment plants washed out. The substances from these exposures had to go somewhere and the damage has yet to be quantified. Let me put it another way; Since the massive flooding has there been any public discussion of what happened to the sewage runoffs from humans and farms, the gas storage tanks and the chemical tanks? Has there been any large scale assessment of the damage that resulted in Thailand? To the best of my knowledge, the answer is no.

You are certainly right about being concerned with current herbicides, but the severity of health effects of Agent Orange has no match with the herbicides used these days, however what you wrote about flooding and its side effects clearly should worry everyone since once chemicals go around, they eventually will be found in the food we eat, starting from fruit and vegetables, then in farm animals, milk.....everything really.....that's why few years ago in Belgium there were thousands (or millions? You can check it by googling it) of animals killed for a small contamination of dioxine.

I agree that knowing the truth in this matter is hard even in more developed countries due to the fact that not even the USA Government, nor Dow Chemical ever want to pay the bill to clean up the mess they have done around the world.

[metisdead]

A post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered "fair use" and not a violation of copyright.

I'm sorry, I did not know about such rule, can I re-post it in the way you just explained, as I think it really explains a lot of things about this topic.

Thanks

Go ahead and repost as per those guidelines.

[SteeleJoe]

Laos was not a target .Vietnam was.

Actually they both were.

If you think Laos was not part of the conflict in SEA -- and irrespective of what the US did do or shouldn't have done, the North Vietnamese have much to answer for in regards to how and when it became one -- then you simply don't know much about the topic.

[SteeleJoe]

Oops, didn't see Kerry's post. Sorry for redundancy.

I'll add though that it wasn't just the HCM Trail that brought Laos into it -- that began with North Vietnam violating the Geneva Accords with an invasion of Laos in '58.

Prior to the Johnson administration, Laos was seen as THE area of concern (by both Eisenhower and Kennedy).

[SteeleJoe]

Just noticed this:

I don't think that H.H. was used , by the Americans , to fly raids over Vietnam.Too far away...

Apparently you are unaware of U Tapao - a large and very important base in Rayong. B-52s not heavy?

And nowhere in Thailand was "too far away" from Vietnam to be used as a base from which stage operations in VN -- it's just that some places were more suitable than others (sometimes Guam was the best option).

[Diablo Bob]

An interesting side note to this sad period of history is that not only was the Vietnam war a USA vs Communism conflict but at the same time there was an internal conflict happening between the Chinese Communist factions and the USSR Communist factions.

Vietnam was a USSR faction, the Khmer Rouge were a Chinese faction. It has been documented that the Khmer Rouge spent as much time killing Nationalist troops as they did attacking the Russian communist factions (supported by N. Vietnam)in Cambodia. When Vietnam threw out the Khmer Rouge, what happens, China invades Vietnam....... crazy era. Oh, China lost this little conflict, they ran into a Vietnamese buzzsaw.

I am not positive, but I believe that Laos was alighned with Moscow until the fall of the USSR.

[Atmos]

from US Dept of Veterans Affairs

Agent Orange: Thailand Military Bases

Vietnam-era Veterans whose service involved duty on or near the perimeters of military bases in Thailand anytime between February 28, 1961 and May 7, 1975 may have been exposed to herbicides and may qualify for VA benefits.

U-Tapao Air Base, Thailand, 1972

The National Archives

The following Veterans may have been exposed to herbicides:

• U.S. Air Force Veterans who served on Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) bases at U-Tapao, Ubon, Nakhon Phanom, Udorn, Takhli, Korat, and Don Muang, near the air base perimeter anytime between February 28, 1961 and May 7, 1975.
• U.S. Army Veterans who provided perimeter security on RTAF bases in Thailand anytime between February 28, 1961 and May 7, 1975.
• U.S. Army Veterans who were stationed on some small Army installations in Thailand anytime between February 28, 1961 and May 7, 1975. However, the Army Veteran must have been a member of a military police (MP) unit or was assigned an MP military
  occupational specialty whose duty placed him/her at or near the base perimeter.

Report on Defense Tactics in Thailand

A recently declassified Department of Defense (DoD) Report written in 1973 titled, "Project CHECO Southeast Asia Report: Base Defense in Thailand 1968-1972," contains evidence that there was a significant use of herbicides on the fenced-in perimeters of military bases in Thailand to remove foliage that provided cover for enemy forces.

VA determined that herbicides used on the Thailand base perimeters may have been tactical and procured from Vietnam, or a strong, commercial type resembling tactical herbicides.

[harrry]

Just noticed this:

I don't think that H.H. was used , by the Americans , to fly raids over Vietnam.Too far away...

Apparently you are unaware of U Tapao - a large and very important base in Rayong. B-52s not heavy?

And nowhere in Thailand was "too far away" from Vietnam to be used as a base from which stage operations in VN -- it's just that some places were more suitable than others (sometimes Guam was the best option).

Not heavy when they came back.....

To stand on the road outside the base and see waves of those bombers take off should have bbeen enough to put anyone off.

[Semper]

italian2011. Most/many of the things USA did is classified.

[SteeleJoe]

An interesting side note to this sad period of history is that not only was the Vietnam war a USA vs Communism conflict but at the same time there was an internal conflict happening between the Chinese Communist factions and the USSR Communist factions.

Vietnam was a USSR faction, the Khmer Rouge were a Chinese faction. It has been documented that the Khmer Rouge spent as much time killing Nationalist troops as they did attacking the Russian communist factions (supported by N. Vietnam)in Cambodia. When Vietnam threw out the Khmer Rouge, what happens, China invades Vietnam....... crazy era. Oh, China lost this little conflict, they ran into a Vietnamese buzzsaw.

I am not positive, but I believe that Laos was alighned with Moscow until the fall of the USSR.

Well, I think -- probably deliberately and I can see why you would -- you've put it bit simply but that's largely correct as far as it goes. But in fact the Chinese were VERY deep into Vietnam during the conflict years (billions of dollars of aid, weapons and even personnel) but it was always a marriage of convenience on very shaky foundation given historical enmity that goes back generations. When the Chinese and Soviets split started, Vietnam went with the Soviets (again putting things simply).

The Khmer Rouge would never been a viable entity without the North Vietnamese who sheltered, trained and sponsored them for years. That too was a a marriage of convenience on very shaky foundation given historical enmity that goes back generations and goes deeper than politics.

Laos was absolutely reliant on Vietnam as the Pathet Lao (who won their revolution and run the country) -- like the Khmer Rouge if not more so -- would not have been what they were or succeeded as they did without North Vietnam. So when Vietnam and China split, Laos went with Vietnam and thus were largely a Soviet client state as was Vietnam (though they tried to not anger the mighty neighbors too much).

Before anyone takes issue with this posts lack of nuance and streamlining, I fully admit to simplifying -- though hoepfully not being simplistic -- for the sake of brevity. This one a few topics that I tend to go and on about -- citing detailed facts and names etc -- so I'm trying to refrain from doing so here (out of pity for forum readers and laziness and concern for going off topic). I also am doing it off the top of my head so apologize for any oversights...

[Thongkorn]

Laos was not a target .Vietnam was.

Actually they both were.

If you think Laos was not part of the conflict in SEA -- and irrespective of what the US did do or shouldn't have done, the North Vietnamese have much to answer for in regards to how and when it became one -- then you simply don't know much about the topic.

Look up Hells gate on you tube , a secret war was going on along side the vietnam war,

[SteeleJoe]

italian2011. Most/many of the things USA did is classified.

Care to elaborate?

[SteeleJoe]

Laos was not a target .Vietnam was.

Actually they both were.

If you think Laos was not part of the conflict in SEA -- and irrespective of what the US did do or shouldn't have done, the North Vietnamese have much to answer for in regards to how and when it became one -- then you simply don't know much about the topic.

Look up Hells gate on you tube , a secret war was going on along side the vietnam war,

Uhmmm...why are you telling me? I'm the one who was pointing out -- in the very senetnce you qoute -- that Laos was part of the conflict. And trust me, I don't need Youtube to tell me that a war was fought in Laos, I've studied this history for far longer than Youtube (or the internet) has existed.

[Semper]

italian2011. Most/many of the things USA did is classified.

Care to elaborate?

No, and you know why.

[SteeleJoe]

italian2011. Most/many of the things USA did is classified.

Care to elaborate?

No, and you know why.

Not sure I do. Are you afraid the CIA/Mossad/Bilderburg Group assassins will track you down and silence you?

Given that hundreds of books have been written by well respected historians of the scholars of the era who have had extremely extensive access to declassified files from the US and USSR (as well as many other valuable sources) and that among the dozens I've read I don't recall many references to information that was unavailable, I'm surprised to learn that you know that 'most or many' of the things the US did are still classified. I'm even more surprised that you apparently can't tell us how you know this...

Oh, wait....how old are you (and where were you 40 or 50 years ago)?

[wandrinstar]

The Profusion of Wildlife should answer the Question. Or is there a hidden agenda behind it.

[Diablo Bob]

An interesting side note to this sad period of history is that not only was the Vietnam war a USA vs Communism conflict but at the same time there was an internal conflict happening between the Chinese Communist factions and the USSR Communist factions.

Vietnam was a USSR faction, the Khmer Rouge were a Chinese faction. It has been documented that the Khmer Rouge spent as much time killing Nationalist troops as they did attacking the Russian communist factions (supported by N. Vietnam)in Cambodia. When Vietnam threw out the Khmer Rouge, what happens, China invades Vietnam....... crazy era. Oh, China lost this little conflict, they ran into a Vietnamese buzzsaw.

I am not positive, but I believe that Laos was alighned with Moscow until the fall of the USSR.

Well, I think -- probably deliberately and I can see why you would -- you've put it bit simply but that's largely correct as far as it goes. But in fact the Chinese were VERY deep into Vietnam during the conflict years (billions of dollars of aid, weapons and even personnel) but it was always a marriage of convenience on very shaky foundation given historical enmity that goes back generations. When the Chinese and Soviets split started, Vietnam went with the Soviets (again putting things simply).

The Khmer Rouge would never been a viable entity without the North Vietnamese who sheltered, trained and sponsored them for years. That too was a a marriage of convenience on very shaky foundation given historical enmity that goes back generations and goes deeper than politics.

Laos was absolutely reliant on Vietnam as the Pathet Lao (who won their revolution and run the country) -- like the Khmer Rouge if not more so -- would not have been what they were or succeeded as they did without North Vietnam. So when Vietnam and China split, Laos went with Vietnam and thus were largely a Soviet client state as was Vietnam (though they tried to not anger the mighty neighbors too much).

Before anyone takes issue with this posts lack of nuance and streamlining, I fully admit to simplifying -- though hoepfully not being simplistic -- for the sake of brevity. This one a few topics that I tend to go and on about -- citing detailed facts and names etc -- so I'm trying to refrain from doing so here (out of pity for forum readers and laziness and concern for going off topic). I also am doing it off the top of my head so apologize for any oversights...

I kept it simple because it has been years since I read about this issue and I only know the basics, not the in depth history.

Thank you for filling in some of my fuzzy memories from the past.