Raising Beef Cattle In Issan

[bannork]

Thanks for all the useful advice MF, a list of recipes for mineral licks would be much appreciated as would a list of dealers for electrical fence dealers as our local store doesn't sell it.

Thanking in advance.

Bannork.

[RamdomChances]

You should be able to pick the regulators in nearly any hardware shop, as MF sadi about 1000 bhat. We just use the stainless steel wire rather than the braded stuff.

Dont get the really thick wire as it gets a bit heavy across the runs and is dificult to get any tension on. Just knock a stake (bamboo we buy ours as they are cheap) in about every 4-5 m and loop the wire around each pole. If you put one piece of wire to earth yyou don't actually need to make a circuit with the rest and it will still work.

I've seen some recipies for mineral licks, I'll post them if I can find them again. Your problem would be sourcing the "stuff" probaly easier to just buy the blocks 2x10kg blocks for about 500 bhat. You want to look for a milk co-op, pet shop farm supply/fertiliser shop that sort of thing to buy the blocks. You can buy bags of vitamine suplements form the same place usually as well, they are'nt expencive, look for the levels of vitimine A, D and E helps with fertility

Where actualy are you Bannork ?

[bannork]

Thanks for the advice RC, we're near Bandung which is 80 km north-east of Udon.

[Maizefarmer]

I tried to load up some mixes here for all to see - but the html is not sensitive to the layout ( the figures land up all over the place) - so I am going to attach it later as a doc you can click on to view.

Tim

Edited November 4, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[Maizefarmer]

Some notes on Mineral mixes are attached.

Tim

MINERAL_MIXS.doc

Edited November 4, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[Maizefarmer]

I should have added that the first set of figures given as percentages, mean percentage by weight and not percentage by volume.

Please ensure you get this right.

Tim

[RamdomChances]

Thanks for that MF, I'll try and have a bit of a play with it later and see if I can post it as a table on the forum, got a bit of a thick head at the moment though

[RamdomChances]

..........Pregnant......Post Partum......Tetany Time........Dry Cows & Calves

Mg..........15..................8....................20.........................

..2

P.............7..................10....................7........................

...10

Na..........13...................9...................10.........................

.12

Ca...........0..................13....................9.........................

..14

Per 1 kilogram of the above mix

Add the following

(figures given are in milligram (mg)

Cu.......5000...........3500...........3000...........4000

Zn.......5000...........6000...........5000..........7000

Mn.......4000...........3200...........2800..........3800

Per 1 kg of the above mix

Add the following Vitamin

(figures given are in International Units (IU)

D3..........80 000..........80 000..........650 000..........750 000

E..............2 500............1 500.............1 500..............2 000

A..........400 000.........400 000..........340 000..........360 000

The following notes are based on my experience with using licks in Thailand. The above can be fed as both a solidified lick or as a powdered formula with individual forage rations. If incorporated with a straw, the addition of molasses makes it more palatable.

The most common of all the deficiencies in dairy cattle diets is – Ca: do a Ca test on your cattle, 99% of you will find around 50% of your stock have low Ca levels. Problem with it is that it’s one of the elements that really has to be feed to cattle on a cow by co basis to get it right – and that’s not very practical.

1)For high yielding cows you can increase Ca by even more than the figure above.

2)Note reduction in Ca in pregnant cows: drop Ca to zero about to 2 months before birth. If calving can be predicted accurately then the addition of Ca to diet 3 days before calving can be very beneficial. If cow does not birth after 72 hours then withdraw Ca from diet.

The vitamin E levels I have given here are high (very high in fact). V E is good in combating mastitis. Excess will be excreted.

What – no copper (Cu)!?

Copper is one of those elements that can add a lot but also has the potential to do a lot of damage. While it is a fact that CU deficiency is an issue in Thai cattle, my experience is that the effort required to get each cow to an optimum Cu level is often out weighed by the effort required. Don’t worry about it unless the symptoms are so obvious that they are noticeable.

If you have groups of cows amongst which fertility has been an issue in the past, the doubling of the Mn figures in their diet for about 1 month before AI has shown to have a beneficial effect on this problem.

Thanks to MF

(edited lot's of time by RC )

Edited November 5, 2006 by RamdomChances

[teletiger]

No Selenium?

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

Nope I have never used it and out of all the people around here who should, in theory I should be top of that list because my cattle are restricted to the same area day after day.

I have always suspected the average Thai cow is getting enough by way of selenate from the enviroment, but my ears are open - share with me any evidance or indication you have that Thai cows have low Selenium levels.

Tim

[teletiger]

Well. I'm no chemist, but....

(1) Institute for International Development and Cooperation, Hiroshima University

(2) Faculty of Agriculture, Kansetsart University, Thailand

volume The 12th Symposium on Trace Nutrients Research(1995)

P P.155-159

Summary

　Nutritional status of minerals of beef and diary cattle and buffalo in central Thailand were investigated by evaluating the mineral concentrations in feedstuff and blood plasma of animals during both rainy and hot seasons. One hundred fifty nine females from 4 beef cattle herds, 1 buffalo herd and 3 dairy cattle herds were studied. Low Na concentrations (below 0.07 % on a dry matter basis) in pasture samples from the field for particular beef cow herds was observed. Cu concentrations in all the pasture samples were ranged from 4.2 to 13.5 mg/kg. More than 42 % of animals from 2 beef cattle herds, a buffalo herd and a dairy cattle herd showed lower plasma Cu concentrations than the critical level (0.65 µg/ml). Iron and Se concentrations in forage samples had a wide variety ranging from 185 to 1345 and 0.033 to 1.127 mg/kg, respectively. The concentrations K, Ca, Mg, P, Zn and Mn in the diets totally fed were higher than the requirements for beef and dairy cattle. The concentrations of Ca, Mg, Pi, Fe and Zn in plasma of animals were normal.

Firstly, this was a central Thailand study. These forage samples show a Se deficiency. Most if not all mineral mixes/blocks available in Thailand contain Se. Selenium deficiency does not show a specific symptom, but produces a whole range of problems.

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1607/eb1607.html

Those Cu figures above should be noticed. 42% of animals tested were below the critical level.

Regards

[teletiger]

Personally I will stick with the mixes/blocks available. To lose a 20,000/30,000 Baht cow just to save a few thousand Baht on the retail price, seems to me a false economy.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

TT - yes, I would largely concurr with those findings.

Are you best to stick with commercially avalible mineral mixes/blocks?

Yes and no. To offer a mineral mix or block just for its own sake and not taking into consideration what the lick is mad eup of or what the rest of the daily diet the cow consumes is made up of, while not been dangerous in any way, can be just a waste of money - and the reality of the matter is , is that that is just what happens in most cases in Thailand. Farmers hang up a mineral lick because "it's good for the cow" without much appreciation for just what the lick is offering.

If one doesn't understand what is in the mineral lick and/or just what role it is serving in the overall diet the animal is eating then, no its not not best to stick with a commercially availible lick. One may well find one is better off doing without it.

However, if one goes to the extent of understanding what their livestock is eating and understands the role each compnent of the diet is playing - then, yes - choosing the right comercially avalible off-the-shelf lick can offer tremnedous benefits.

From my perspective the problem is that no one rececipe is going to be perfect for all instances. I have to bare in mind the avaliability of the ingredients and the way they are or could be used by forum members.

At the end of the day the best I can do - while keeping in mind health and safety issue which you raise - is offer something that is practical, cost effective and which I know from experiance will be safe to use. That means just that - and what I offered it is very much a recipe that will offer realisable and noticeable benefits in diets in which no lick has been used to date and which I would be prepeared to garuntee as been safe - nothing more and nothing less.

All said - I will add to the safety aspect by saying that unless you are confiedent you can mix properly and are not going to get mg quantities mixed with g quantities, and g quanities mixed with IU qauntities, then please do not attempt slef mixing.

Lastly, one also has to bare in mind the economics of self mixing. Generally it's not worth doing it yourself unless you are going to do it in quanitties of about 500kg - 1000kg. Buying stuff like Selenium and 6 or 7 other ingredients I would like to have added to that recipe would be impractical to buy in small quantities - at least in quanities that make it economicaly viable.

Tim

Edited November 5, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[chownah]

".................

Those Cu figures above should be noticed. 42% of animals tested were below the critical level.

Regards

Do you know what is critical about the critical level?...I mean exactly how is the critical level defined?

Chownah

[teletiger]

Gawd.....google it.

http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/MineralPr...information.htm

Here's something to confuse you.....and me

Molybdenum and selenium interfere with Cu absorption by forming thiomolybdates that bind Cu, resulting in compounds that cannot be absorbed by the animal. Decreased liver Cu levels can be caused by excessive Fe in the diet. In the same study, Mo appeared to have an additive action with Fe by decreasing liver Cu, while S and Fe had independent effects on Cu. The antagonistic mechanism of Fe is not well understood. Excessive dietary Zn can also negatively effect Cu absorption of copper.

Try this one.

http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2004/August/CT345.shtml

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

If you go back to page 2 of this thread Cu was the one element I highlighted above all others as the element which needs to be added to the diet of cattle in Thailand. Yes it is a problem in local diets.

So having now blown my trumpet – just what is the issue with copper?

Well – it’s critical in that without it the immune system ceases to function as it should, exposing the cow to a whole host of problems it wouldn’t otherwise suffer. The same can be said in respect of anything lacking from a diet, at some point it is going to cause problems, except that with respect to copper, the lack of it can result in a whole host of illnesses & problems that are usually incorrectly diagnosed as been caused by something else, and in contrast to other diet defienciencies it is relatively straight forward to treat – you just have to add the stuff to the diet.

So what is critical level: I would say it’s that level at which problems are manifesting them selves or about to manifest themselves.

From a development point of view (in particular beef cattle) lack of copper results in reduced growth rate and poor carcass development – pretty much an irretrievable situation if you have to get the animal to market by certain time (having to keep it longer both mess up the economics of the raising programme and if the deficiency was suffered in early grow then its quite possible that effects to deal with it later will produce little benefit i.e. once the damage is done it’s done).

If looked at as an actual figure/or amount needed, and the point at which lack of it starts to become a problem for the cow, the figures below are roughly in line with what I would want to see in one of my cows’ diets:

Ideal: 10 - 20 ppm (parts per million of feed intake)

Overall: 200 – 400ppm

Below 7ppm things are getting critical.

Ideal is the actual intake or the “bio-availability” from the overall amount fed i.e. like proteins, just feeding it is no assurance the animal is going to absorb it. It needs to be fed in the right way, and in the case of copper its absorption is in part down to what else in the diet. If there is a lot molybidenium (check spelling) and certain types of sulphates in the diet then copper will not be absorbed. It then has to be fed as a copper oxide – and in Thailand, their may well be an argument to support taking copper out of animals diets and feeding copper oxide instead, as in this form it’s bio-availability is so much greater.

Why do I say in Thailand?

Because I have learnt not always to believe what is written on bags about what they are supposed to contain – especially concentrate bags!

Like a lot of other quality assurances given (and ISAO 900 whatever is no garuntee either) about products, what it says on the tin is not always accurate. But surely not so inaccurate to lead to cattle falling down?? No, I would be exaggerating to say that that was the case. It would be extreme to say this was the case, but it should be noted that the survey done that TT refers to was in respect of live animals in any case.

Lack of copper is potentially critical:

Here are a list of symptoms associated with lack of copper in cattle diets:

- unusually high incidence of broken or damaged bones

- reduced DMI intake and slow or stunted growth

- problems with rear legs (unsteadiness

- increase an dieses in the herd

- swollen joints

- diarrhoea

Problem with all of these is that they can occur for a number of other reasons and it is really down to the vet to be able to recognise the symptoms for what they are. It is very much a problem that requires the whole herd to be looked at – isolating one cow and looking just at it will be to almost certainly miss the problem – it is very much a “herd problem”.

Testing for Cu in cattle can only really be done reliably by taking a liver biopsy – so next time you have a cow slaughtered get a piece of the liver (about 2 – 5 ounces will be enough) and get that tested. If that cow has a Cu deficiency chances are the rest of the herd will also be suffering form CU deficiency.

[teletiger]

Sorry if I came across as a bit flippant there Chownah. Mineral requirements for cattle really is a science all of it's own. Most commercial foods contain a broad spectrum of minerals that should cover most deficiencies. If cattle are on native forage, a mineral mix/block, fed ad lib, should cover most eventualities. You can get different mixes for dairy and beef.

Regards

[chownah]

I questioned the meaning of the term "critical level" because it can be an emotionally charged term and can lead people to false assumptions about its meaning. Some human being determines a level of some thing and then gives it the name "critical". In particular when pertaining to health it is difficult to clearly define what is "critical" and what is not. Sometimes what is labeled "critical" should probably be labeled "cautionary". In matters of health there are few nutritional items which are just fine on one side of a threshold and then disaster occurs just on the opposite side of the threshold.

I think that this discussion of mineral requirements is interesting and informative and can benefit many farmers. I think that this discussion is most critical for feedlot animals whose food often comes from a very narrow range of plants and thus has a much higher possibility of deficiency. I think that an animal that gets a large percentage of its diet from grazing in a natural pasture of diversified plant species is much more likely to get its mineral requirements met without supplementation.

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

I have yet to come across a pasture in Thailand (natural or cultivated) that comes anywhere near been able to supply dairy or beef cattle with even half decent diet. It just does not exist.

Cows do not naturally select what is best for them - they select what tastes best for them, so their is going to be a conflict in natural pasture between what is avalible and what they eat versus what is best for them.

Cows fed in feedlots and/or is stalls tend to get a much better diet. Of course the farmer has the responsibility to see to it that they are been fed properly.

Tim

[chownah]

Maizefarmer,

In my post I indicated that a cow eating a diviersified diet from natural pasuture is more likely to get its mineral requirements met and a cow eating a feedlot diet is more likely to have a mineral deficiency so mineral supplementation is a more likely requirement for them.

You posted that you have not seen a pasture in Thailand (natural or cultivated) that comes anywhere near been able to supply dairy or beef cattle with even half decent diet. I'm wondering what you mean by this. Are you saying that a cow getting most of its fodder in a natural diversified pasture will not even come close to getting half of its mineral requirements? I find this hard to believe. I have seen what seem to be healthy cows that only eat natural pasture. It seems to me that if a cow was not even getting half of its mineral requirements that it would be obviously in poor health.....but perhaps these healthy looking animals are actually mineral deficient and I am simply not able to see the symptoms. I would like to observe the symptoms of mineral deficiency in the cows in my neighborhood.....can you tell me what the most obvious ones would be so I can check them for this?

Also, are you saying that you have not seen a pasture in Thailand that can even come close to providing half of the mineral requirements or are you saying this as a world wide phenomena? Is there something about Thailand that makes a natural pasture (or a cultivated one) unable to produce a healthy cow or is it impossible anywhere in the world to find a pasture that can provide a healthy cow? Are all of the native guars mineral deficient too?...if so how have they survived?

Chownah

Edited November 6, 2006 by chownah

[Issangeorge]

Chownah, the cows you are observing may be eating off of natural pasture, but at night when they go back to the cow house they may have mineral licks provided as our cows do. Issangeorge.

[chownah]

Chownah, the cows you are observing may be eating off of natural pasture, but at night when they go back to the cow house they may have mineral licks provided as our cows do. Issangeorge.

Nope. At least the ones my uncle takes care of definitely don't have a salt lick. I've never seen a salt lick in my village....but maybe I've missed them. I'll go ask around and see what people do.

Also, since my last post I have done some internet research on trace minerals for cows and it seems that the overwhelming majority of farmers (at least the majority of those that get mentioned on the internet) use mineral supplements. It also seems that a herd of cows on a natural pasture where the soil is not defficient in minerals can live and reproduce indefinitely but their weight gain would be less overall and there would be more health problems on average including more missed reproductive opportunities. It seems that trace mineral supplements are a cost effective way to boost yields but generally speaking a cow can live a healthy life without them on the proper pasture....as far as I can tell from my three hour cruise of the internet.

[Maizefarmer]

Maizefarmer,

In my post I indicated that a cow eating a diviersified diet from natural pasuture is more likely to get its mineral requirements met and a cow eating a feedlot diet is more likely to have a mineral deficiency so mineral supplementation is a more likely requirement for them.

You posted that you have not seen a pasture in Thailand (natural or cultivated) that comes anywhere near been able to supply dairy or beef cattle with even half decent diet. I'm wondering what you mean by this. Are you saying that a cow getting most of its fodder in a natural diversified pasture will not even come close to getting half of its mineral requirements? I find this hard to believe. I have seen what seem to be healthy cows that only eat natural pasture. It seems to me that if a cow was not even getting half of its mineral requirements that it would be obviously in poor health.....but perhaps these healthy looking animals are actually mineral deficient and I am simply not able to see the symptoms. I would like to observe the symptoms of mineral deficiency in the cows in my neighborhood.....can you tell me what the most obvious ones would be so I can check them for this?

Also, are you saying that you have not seen a pasture in Thailand that can even come close to providing half of the mineral requirements or are you saying this as a world wide phenomena? Is there something about Thailand that makes a natural pasture (or a cultivated one) unable to produce a healthy cow or is it impossible anywhere in the world to find a pasture that can provide a healthy cow? Are all of the native guars mineral deficient too?...if so how have they survived?

Chownah

Here we go again.......

Lets see if I can convey this better.

You made a statement about cows feeding off a natural diet out in the field versus cows feeding in a feedpen - the former been more a case of the cow been at liberty to select what it wants to eat versus what it is given to eat.

If I undertsood what you said correctly your argument was that cow would be better off feeding form a natural pasture than it would be feeding off food it was given to eat (in a feed pen).

My reply to that is you are not going to find pasture natural or otherwise in Thailand that will fullfill cattle nutritional requirements better than you will be able to tailor a diet for cattle kept in feedlots.

While cattle may well be able to survive quite happily feeding off pasture you will not find cattle in Thailand who feed off pasture getting all their nuritional requirements, and as for the idea off cultivating a mixed forage pasture that is sustainable/viable for feeding cattle - well, I 've tried it, and at best it lasts about 1 year - 18months before the dominant forage overtakes the weaker forage. i.e. while in theory it would seem that forages providing a perfectly balanced diet can be mixed to grow in pasture together, in practise it just don't work.

I was making a comparison - cattle feeding on natural pasture in Thailand do not feed anywhere near as well as cattle fed properly worked out balanced rations in a feedlot.

As for drawing gaurs into the argument - well thats just plain daft Chownah - you are comparing an animal that is geneticaly very different to the average cow, and which has a digestive system geared to wards living off natural grasses and habitat growth - and you are asking me if I was referring to that as well. Its clear to even the dimmest forum member that my statement was very much orientated towards cattle/cows as in the contect of the average farm - not a gaur!

Secondly, would not be at all accurate to say that a cow getting half its nutritional requirement would look obviously unwell. Take copper for example (as this has come up recently). A cow getting no copper or an excess of one of a number of other elements would fail to absorb a whole host of nutritients it requires to sustain normal bone strength, normal fertality, normal microbe function. It would look outwardly quite normal - other than for perhaps been thinner than other cows in the herd - but a blood test woul dshow a whole host of nutrietn deficienicies. By the same token I can of course highlight nutrional deficiencies that will be blatantly obvious just loking at the cow. How visualy obvious it is would depend on exactly what it is was that was lacking. It would not be acccurate to say that a cow getting half or less than half of it's nutrional requirement would be visualy unwell. The deficiencies may be obvious or it may not be obvious.

I don't know if I have the worng end of the stick here, but I get the feeling you are spending a large amount of your time taking issue with peoples contributions as you seldom start a topic off but lurk in the bckground waiting for an oppurtunity to correct something. My idea of this forum is somewhat different - it should be about sharing ideas and discussing & debating them.

Anyway, whatever you are most comfortable with, but I am fast loosing interest in having to keep coming back and restating what no-one else seems to have an issue with.

My statement was very much across the board so to speak, while by contraste you orignal statement (to which I replied) was very much a theoretical scenario which could very well be the case under certain conditions, but not likely in reality

I stand by what I said - cows in Thailand feeding off natural pasture do not get anywhere near their full dietry requirements (not that they can't - just that they don't), and cows fed in feedlots from prepeared forage diets and additives get a much better diet.

It is after all the very reason why concentrates and feed additives are developed and used - to compensate for what natural pasture fails to offer to the cow.

Tim

[chownah]

Maizefarmer,

I would be glad to discuss my posting style with you anytime you would like and as much as you feel a need for but I do think that the public forum is not the place for it. Why not send me a personal message with your questions and comments about me and my motives and my posting style.

You described your post as "very much across the board so to speak". What you posted was that pasture can not provide "even half decent diet". At the time it seemed to me that this characterization of a pasture's ability to provide necessary nutrients was severly at odds with my experience of the health of the cows I have seen in Thaland.....why weren't all the cows which only get pasture unhealthy?....with NOT EVEN a half decent diet. So I replied in a way to clearly point out the disconnect I was having between what you had said and my personal experiences....and I didn't just sit passively and wait for your reply...I went out to the internet and looked for the answer myself.

You posted, "My idea of this forum is somewhat different - it should be about sharing ideas and discussing & debating them." Isn't this what I'm doing? Aren't I discussing and debating and sharing ideas. Maybe they aren't the ideas that you like because they differ from your own...but then isn't that what we're looking for here?..another point of view.

I'm getting tired of feeling the need to defend my posting and my self here on the public forum where I feel it is really out of place. In the future please either direct your comments to me by PM or just stick to the topic.

Sincerely,

Chownah

[RamdomChances]

You posted, "My idea of this forum is somewhat different - it should be about sharing ideas and discussing & debating them." Isn't this what I'm doing? Aren't I discussing and debating and sharing ideas. Maybe they aren't the ideas that you like because they differ from your own...but then isn't that what we're looking for here?..another point of view.

Personaly I think theres a difference between "sharing ideas and discussing & debating them" and deliberatly being pedantic and just picking minor points out of posts that have to be explained to tha N'th degree

[bannork]

The title of this thread is raising beef cattle as opposed to dairy, I would venture most beef cattle farmers' prime objective is to raise their cattle to fetch as high a price as possible as cheaply as possible, and as quickly as possible.

As milk production is of no concern, weight, size and general attractiveness( long ears, the slope on the back, etc) are important factors, as is whether one is selling for slaughter or for continued growth or breeding.

In that regard it may be that a detailed analysis of differing mineral content may be unnecessary for the average beef farmer but nevertheless it makes interesting reading.

I like MF's comment,' the cow eats what tastes good,not necessarily what's good for it'. Like naughty children gorging out on ice-cream. I've noticed our cows, especially the calves love the weed that's common in ricefields, it has a long ,tough stem with many side shoots, it has firmroots but not deep, it's useful for tethering cows to. it can grow to about 6 foot, cows usually bite off the side shoots.

[chownah]

Bannork,

At the risk of seeming "deliberately pedantic" I would like to point out that just because a cow eats what tastes good to it doesn't necessarily mean that if given the opportunity it will choose an unhealthy diet. An example that I am sure some will see as being daft and unrelated I point out that I eat what tastes good to me and I eat a healthy diet. It is suggested by some that all/most animals will instinctively eat a healthy diet if the means to a naturally healthy diet are available....I don't know if these people are right or wrong....I'm only mentioning them (and my eating habits) to show that animals might actually pick out a healthy diet because it tastes good to them if a naturally healthy diet is available. I have watched what the cows around here eat and I have noticed that when they are in an area where there are many types of plants available they often will start by eating a relatively large quantity of one particular type of plant available but then after awhile they stop eating this and change to a more browse like activity where they pick and choose among many different plants. It seems like they are making choices about what they are eating and the result is that they get alot of one particular plant and smaller amounts of many other different one.....could this result in a well rounded diet?....I don't know....I really don't know....I would like to find out. Of course alot of other people on this forum don't give a rat's a55 about this so they will say that I'm being "deliberately pedantic" and that this is "just plain daft" and get all in a huff about me asking about this. I ask them to jjust send their comments to me in a PM and I'll be glad to discuss it there...but please no more of these discussions about me or my reasons for posting here in the forum....if it helps then just accept the fact that I'm "just plain daft" and "deliberatley pedantic" and leave it at that.

I would just like to point out that cows lived and reproduced for a long long time without the help of feedlot tactics and mineral supplements. I'm not trying to say that feedlots or mineral supplements are bad....but clearly they are not necessary in raising cows....at least in my opinion. When I get some cows I don't know if I'll give them mineral supplements or not. I'm still learning about this topic....I haven't learned enough about yet so I welcome any links or opinions on this.

Sincerely,

Chownah

Edited November 7, 2006 by chownah

[Maizefarmer]

Chownah

Just because a cow is at liberty to eat what it likes does not mean it will eat unhealthily!

Oh yes it will - try putting a cow in a fiield with a selection of as many different crops as you like - and yes, go to the effort to make sure they are all crops they knowning to like and eat. Oh, and one of the choices should be alfalfa.

And what will happen?

The cow will make a bee line for the alfalfa - and kill its self over a period of 24 - 36 hrs.

I suggest the feeding behaviour you describe where you are is as much a function of natural grazing behaviour as it is about learning what is/what is not palatable.

No - cattle do not make a distinction between what is good for them and what is not. What they eat is very much determined by how palatable it is - even to the point that they will kill themselves.

Tim

[chownah]

Maizefarmer,

Thanks for the information. Now I know that it is possible to create a pasture situation that will lead a cow to eat to the detriment of its health....and that situation is to have a large stand of alfalfa in the pasture and letting the cow eat only alfalfa if that is what it wants to do. I'll try to make sure that I don't have alot of alfalfa in my pasture....that shouldn't be difficult since alfalfa will not grow sustainably in Thaland from what I know about the requirements of alfalfa. Are there other plants which would have the same effect, i.e. a cow will eat it until they die?

Chownah

[teletiger]

No grazing animal can get a full mineral load from grass or plants alone. Thats why they have salt licks. These are usually rocky outcrops of high mineral value, or river mud. When cows are deficient in minerals they tend to chew bark, eat mud, lick each other, lick at dried escreta, etc. Then there's the higher instances of prolapse, abortion, disease, bloat.....the list goes on. No doubt that home raised ruminents do get more (much more actually) minerals than their wild cousins, but then we can keep them productive until they are in their late teens, even twenties. Without the supplaments they'd be lucky to see ten.

Regards