Can My Wife Do This?

[Unwisemonkey]

I'll try and keep it simple and only include relevant details. My wife and I have had our share of problems, and I've taken the Mai pen rai attitude for some time but then no progress ever gets made in our relationship. Anyways I needed to go to get an extension for my visa and she needed to be there, but was not answering her phone (typical these days). I saw her father who told me she had brought our daughter to school so I walked on over to the school only to find out my daughter was not there yet. Mai pen rai, I will try for the Visa anyways even though I knew it would be a bust.

I finally get a hold of her right before the officials go to lunch at twelve and ask her to come down and sign. She protested claiming she was busy and couldn't. I asked if she would keep her phone on and maybe this lady would give me a break later if she spoke with you. She agreed, I got a hold of her. I said that it was as I predicted she retorted by saying she was tired last night and turned her phone off. I said you shouldn't do that what if there is an emergency your father is very old.... CLICK.

I stick around immigration for some time after that trying to resolve my issues and then go home. It's about 3 p.m. when I get there and I think hey I'll pick up my daughter from school today now that I have a chance (they have been making a habit of cutting me out of everything lately... purposefully) and spend some quality time with my kid before they coax her out of Dr. Seuss readings in English with candy and food. I arrive to the school, we greet each other with the usual graciousness. They direct me down the hall where my daughter is supposed to be. She is not there. I write it off to being confused when another teacher that recognizes me directs me back to where my daughter is supposed to be. I see her playing and don't disrupt her. I converse with the teachers asking things like how she is doing socially with the other kids, is she responding to the lessons etc. etc. Then the teacher tells me that my wife signed a form declaring that only Grandma, Grandpa and Mommy are allowed to pick Gwyndalyn up from school. And it specifically stated that Daddy was allowed to wait there until one of the approved guardians arrived.

Naturally I had a problem with this. I told the teacher calmly and politely that this is not fair, it is nonsense and probably illegal. That I am married, not divorced and the father of these children. She directed me to the head whom I spoke with and I informed her that I knew Thai law and that the father has equal rights. She kept insisting that it was my wifes right and I reitterated that we were not divorced, it is not her right. She said it is not her problem that I should speak with my wife. She showed me the form (in Thai) I asked for a copy. She said sure, then didn't make a copy. My wife came she gave her the form, My wife came in asked what the problem was and I said thats what I wanted to know... What is this about? She said it was wrong the school made the mistake it was not what she wanted. I called B.S. because there was a specific clause stating rules for daddy.

She got angry defended her position and I asked to see the document. She handed it over and said she would translate. I said don't worry. I will go make a copy, and get it translated myself. She became offensive, agressive and physical in front of our daughter. I asked her to stop she kept grabbing at me and pushing me about. I motioned for the staff to come help me and they stuck their heads in the sand. She blocked the door and would not let me by, I managed get by eventually without having to get physical with her and asked the head and her minions to please take my daughter away from us so she doesn't have to witness this. She rebuked me and said She's already seen it all!

I responded quickly by saying to her she doesn't need to see anymore then does she? The schools muscle then came after me and blocked my path from leaving the school and demanded the document back. I told him I was promised a copy and I 'm going to get a copy made. He would not let me by I refused to get physical and he refused to step aside. So we waited for the police to come when the police came I handed them the document and cooperated. They handed it over to my wife who ran off to the head, and the Head promptly tore it to pieces. I cannot imagine they would have done that unless they knew it was a violation of my rights. but I digress.

We went down to the police station and had a chat with my mother in law lauding her virtues and chastising me about things that had nothing to do with the situation but the police appeared sympathetic to the fact that I don't speak Thai and didn't seem to judge however they did make me take a drug test which I don't know if that is a violation of my rights or not, but, no one was arrested, I didn't sign anything and some kind of report was made which they did not furnish me with a copy of, but gave to my wife instead.

Sorry for all the dribble drabble but the question boils down to this: Can my wife order the school to not let me pick up my daughter?

We were married in the U.S.

My children were both born in the U.S.

We have registered our marriage with the authorities, I have a Non-O visa.

I am listed on the birth certificates as the father of these children.

We are currently married not divorced.

I'm trying not to rehash old dirty laundry and keep it relevant so if any parts seemed vague I apologize, I'm just trying to keep it relevant to this incident.

[Sheryl]

From the sounds of it, you are headed for far worse problems than being barred from picking up your daughter at school.

I suggest you immediately:

1. Consult a Thai lawyer specializing in family law (a search of this forum will yield some suggestions)

and

2. Discuss your situation and options with the US Embassy or consulate.

Do not refrain for fear of angering your wife or "rocking the boat", the boat is already sinking. You need to secure your parental rights (and, if the paperwork has not not already been done, the children's US citizenship) ASAP.

[Geekfreaklover]

I'm sorry to hear this. The one question that begs to be answered is if you are living together or are seperated from your wife and daughter? Not that his makes too much difference legally, but could help to explain why there is all the hostility.

Be careful with who you choose for a lawyer. A good family lawer, or any lawyer is hard to find in Thailand. Where abouts are you based?

[Mario2008]

You have equal rights as the mother, and nobody can deny you the right to pick your daughter up from school (or the grandparents or anybody else). You can only not get your daughter from the mother herself, as she has equal rights as you.

Withholding your child from you by anybody else is a criminal offence. (although the police will be reluctant to act against the family, and you have to be careful with the school. They might be government officials, so keep your head cool and be polite, but if they brake the law the consequences for them can be serious).

Note that parental kidnapping is not a crime in Thailand.

Not sure hwere you are staying, but an excellent lawyer regarding family law is Isaanlawyers. www.isaanlawyers.com for contact details. Contact them or another lawyer before you do anything.

[Trembly]

I agree with previous posters.

You need the best lawyer money can buy.

I've heard good things about Tilleke & Gibbins.

Common wisdom has it that Thai family courts lack the apparent gender-bias of the west; if anything, they are more likely to come down like a ton of bricks on conduct unbecoming of a mother.

[vont]

find a thai friend

make an official complaint at the police station in thai and

ask for a certified and translated copy in english

then.... head to your favorite atty.... with those copies of doc....

your atty will tell you what next.

lodge your complaint first and foremost.... to start the ball rolling....

are you sure you want to go that route....?

wishing you the best.... stay cool and stay calm at all time.... don't let them say you are a violent person.... ok? :jap:

[TheWalkingMan]

Carry an mp3 player/recorder and keep it in your pocket. You never know, a recording could be helpful in documenting the problems.

TheWalkingMan

[SteeleJoe]

All of the above is excellent advice.

Be Very Careful.

Assuming that everything is just as you state, and all other thngs being equal, you are so clearly a victim of horrible injustice here and ahve every right to be enraged or otherwise extremely upset -- I literally don't like to think what I'd do if someone tried to prevent me access to my kids (even my beloved wife, their mother). -- but BE CAREFUL.

Play it cool and smart. To do otherwise could ruin everything (and maybe even be dangerous).

[Nawtier]

Note that parental kidnapping is not a crime in Thailand.

[seriouseats]

Take her and leave the country. Thais love to use their racism to keep people away from their things. In the USA whoever deserves the most time with the child will probably get it.

[Geekfreaklover]

The OP hasn't got back on this one. There has been lots of good advice on this thread.

To be frank, if your mrs is not allowing you to collect your child from school then there must be a big problem. There, I said it.

You may be able to rectify this problem and continue a stable relationship for your child/children, but this seems unlikely at present owing to your post . If you can get back into being loving caring parents then that would be the best soloution for the child/children.

The suggestion to file a complaint at a police station is a good one and should be taken up. Recording conversations between yourself and your wife may be inpracticle and not permissible in a Thai court (shold it come to that). Taking the child back to your own home country is only an option if that is where you wish to live for the forseeable future.

My experience with Thai courts (having won custody of my kids here) is that they view the parent that is better able to support the child financially and provide a better schooling over and above anything else regardless of that parents sex or nationality.

Not saying that it has come to a divorce situation, but keep that in mind. If you are the one with most of the income, if you are paying for the school that the mother has restricted you access to then there is a major advantage for any future legal action - hence the destroying of that document.

My best advice is to just be strong. And be just.

[SteeleJoe]

My best advice is to just be strong. And be just.

YES.

Advice doesn't get better than that.

[MikeyIdea]

The OP has written a very good introduction and deserves an equally good answer, not easy. I'll give it a try

Your title question: Can my wife do this? No, but if she with holds your child from you, then she will get away with it until you force court to act

Your legal situation is clear, you have equal rights to the mother. Grand mothers whoever relatives are nothing, you have rights they have none whatsoever. You could actually even demand that the school only allow guardians mother and father to fetch the child, no one else including dear grand mother… But then of course, that would only escalate problems and that is not what you want

The not allowing father to fetch child letter is gone and you will never get it back. Nor will this incident matter in court really, custody is about the future of the child first of all. You could make it matter a bit by including it an as intention to illegally withhold the child from the father when you eventually have to go to court about this

A few things about Thai courts

Judges are NOT biased against either fathers or westerners. You will get a fair trial in that sense. Lawyers can very feel that they are not "patriotic" if they defend the western parent too well. Watch out for if your lawyer to be shows this tendency and replace him if he does. Changing lawyer is a valid reason for delay of a court case in Thailand. Court will want to have a negotiated solution for sure. You will get bored with all negotiation, only accept what is good for the child and don't be afraid of letting court order

It sounds like you are heading for a divorce to be honest and there are a few missing pieces of information that would help

What are your intentions regarding the future of the child and you?

What is the mothers intentions regarding the future of the child?

If you want to be an active part of the childs future, then that future will (most likely) have to be in Thailand because the mother can veto that you are allowed to bring the child abroad until the child is at least 15 or so - unless you can prove pretty considerable abuse etc or unless you are doing a very good job presenting yourself in court and don't have too much resistance from the mother – in which case maybe you can get summers abroad. If that is going to happen depends more on the mothers intention than anything else actually and it sounds like the mother wants fight more than reconciliation

The fight in court will be about possession of the child, who will get child and on which days. Custody – possession of the child rather, is about the childs future - The parent who the judges think is the one who will care for the childs education will most likely get the majority of the school days

Common scenarios are 4-3 and 5-2 (the parent that the judges decide is the best for the future of the child gets 4 or 5 week days). As said earlier, custody is between mother and father, custody agreement should have nothing about relatives in it (court will support that), if mother is not available, then her time does not go to other relatives… If mother does not take care of the child (i.e., child sleeps with the mother), then she have to hand her over to the father, not grand mother

Divorce and mother gets half of what was acquired during marriage – there is NO wife alimony in Thailand

Custody and court has a formula that is used to calculate child alimony. It's a hundred bath per day or so for 4 to 6-7 year old children, a bit more for really young children and for older children. Point is: Child alimony is ONLY for the child and it is peanuts. It is not the intention of Thai law that a mother should be able to live and take care of the child on what the father gives. 3,100 to 5,000 bath per month and child is common. Mother and father should share education and health costs (equivalent of government care)

It is common that the mother tries to skin both Thai and western fathers for child alimony when love gets replaced with hate and revenge thoughts but the court will have nothing of it if you present yourself well. Women tend to be stronger than men in situations like this (and quite a lot harder too), you will need both patience and strength to go through this ensuring the best possible future for your child

It's every childs dream to have both a father and a mother, a negotiated solution is best for all parties of course. If that can't be, then be fair to the child first of all

Good Luck

Michael

Edited June 29, 2011 by MikeyIdea

[Unwisemonkey]

Thank you for all the kind words and advice. I apologize for the delay in response time. I have been ridden with anxiety and not sleeping well. To answer some of the questions, My wife and I are not separated in any legal sense. She did begin sleeping in another room in her parents house, and recently I suspect her of renting an apartment nearby where she would bring the oldest daughter to sleep at night. I told her this is unacceptable it's too destabilizing etc etc.. and that she needs to adress whatever her issues with me are so we can move on from this. When we first got to Thailand the parents put us up in their girls dormitory, a buildiing adjacent to their home. Because their eldest daughter does not like me and is not on speaking terms with her sister. This sister threatened to move out of the house if we, my wife, me and my daughters were not thrown out.

When my wife started sleeping in the another room of her parents home I continued on in the dormitory.

I found a job as a chef recently my old trade back in the U.S. but after three days the owner decided he was not happy with the fit. This is after he flew me down once already. Well no sooner had the bed cooled off they decided that they needed to rent out my old dormitory room and there was no place for me. I told my wife fine then they need to make room for me in the house. I cannot help it if the owner does not like my food. I had been teaching English at an agency prior to this but did not resign my contract because being a dutiful husband my wife asked me for help with her business, a small cafe, writing the menu. I obliged but told her she needed to get on the ball with getting the cafe properly supplied to produce food i.e. more refrigeration, some gas burners etc. She agreed and then the family dragged their feet the entire summer vacation. I went back to my agency but by then they had no vacant schools for me to be assigned to.

So now I am unemployed in LOS I found a job but it didn't work out so my search continued. This is one of the things they were chastising me in front of the police about, and obviously neglected to mention the fact all the work I did for them in the past and present. My wifes mother pays for our daughters schooling which is what she agreed to do for a year before we even moved over to Thailand. My relationship with my wife was hot and cold over the last year and I would travel back and forth between where I was teaching and BKK to spend time with my family. I spent a good deal of money on family entertainment trying to repair the bridge between my wife and I. I cleaned up my in laws home which as I mentioned in another post is in disrepair home to rodents and basically unsanitary. I was all in all a good guy.

The violence issue, is no laughing matter. I have had to defend myself on multiple occasions from her temper tantrums only to have been bullied by police upon their arrival on the scene and forced to leave my own home. Eventually they got wise to her game and they sent her for Psychiatric evaluation in our home county, she was prescribed anti-depressants and was okay for a few days but then stopped taking them and continued doing everything she could to force us into a situation that we could move to Thailand or be homeless.

So now I am staying at a friends place nearby so I can be close to my children. I went back to the in-laws last night to pick up some clothes and they were in transit to taking my wife and children to her apartment. My wife came out immediatly and asked what I was doing in a confrontational pose, I told her to cool off I was just getting some clothes. My mother in law began asking where I was staying I did not oblige the information to her and I continued packing some clothes. My daughters came out and saw me and ran up to me happy and excited to see me and began to motion to their stroller begging me to take them for a walk. They get no stimulation during the day because they are stuck inside with the extended family and as I said they have been alienating me from them and I don't cause trouble because that is the only way to keep the peace.

My mother in law told me they were taking them to the picture studio for school (at 7:30 p.m.) This is the time when I try to put my kids to bed. Naturally I didn't believe this what studio is open at this time? I asked my daughter where she was going and Grandma insisted on inserting studio into my daughters mouth. I non challantly asked my daughter where she was going, and she was struggling to come up with the proper word, I suggested "are you going to go sleep?" She said "Yes!" Emphatically.

I let them leave before I did just to make things smoothly but eventually caught up with them because they were moving slowly. My daughters saw me and ran to me again wanting to be carried by daddy. my heart was breaking but I kept cool. My oldest daughter began running about as we walked refusing to hold her mothers hand and her mother began demanding she hold her hand, ordering her to do so and not getting any results. Not wanting to use any vulgar displays of power I did not ask my daughter to hold my hand which she would have without question and responded immediatly. My wife has no control over the children and reguarly says she can only handle one of them at a time. My wife kept trying, my daughter started talking back to her in Thai and batting her h and away. All I could think was great, the mothers influence is already affecting her. My wife began pleading with her which I hate because I've coached her before that you don't plead with a child, you are their parent and you must make strong boundaries with them. We are not their friends we are their parents. When my daughter started batting her hand away I stepped in because I don't want my wifes violence becoming my daughters nature. My wife took a defensive posture and I said to her hey just let me talk with her for a minute. I kneeled down to my daughters level and put my arm around her and asked her what was the matter. She began bawling and sobbing uncontrollably.

For me this moment was a mixture of compassion for my daughter and quiet rage at my wife. I've told her many times that she can hate me that's fine but we need to reconcile our differences and do what's good for these children. I've offered her divorce, no response. I've offered to go to marriage counseling, Whatever response. The list goes on and on. I could not stand this. The two persons I love more then anything in the whole world are being told to lie to me, being alenated from me and even they realize on some level what is going on and it is wrong and these people just continue to act this way and treat the children as property and not as individuals.

At the moment I cannot support a legal case, or my family. I supported them completely in the U.S. my wife did not work at all. Only when I was laid off from my job at the hotel I was working at and we ran out of money did her parents come into the picture offering to help support us if we came to Thailand. I'm just going to stop there because I have a lot of work to do, police reports, job search, visa's and more....

My wife really has no means of supporting the children other then her elderly parents. They've helped her with three businesses that I can say with 90% certainty are nothing more then money pits, acting as a babysitter for one of their adult children to keep them busy during the day while they watch her child. I aplogize for the disjointed freewriting style, but thank you as it will serve to order my grievances for the future fight.

[MikeyIdea]

***********

Taking the child back to your own home country is only an option if that is where you wish to live for the forseeable future.

My experience with Thai courts (having won custody of my kids here) is that they view the parent that is better able to support the child financially and provide a better schooling over and above anything else regardless of that parents sex or nationality.

Not saying that it has come to a divorce situation, but keep that in mind. If you are the one with most of the income, if you are paying for the school that the mother has restricted you access to then there is a major advantage for any future legal action - hence the destroying of that document.

My best advice is to just be strong. And be just.

Excellent post, one thing though

If the father takes the child abroad, then that is not kidnapping but... mother needs almost no funds at all to take it to court and father will have to come here to defend what he has done or he will lose custody. In fact, he will most likely lose custody also if he comes back to defend his decision. The mother will be recommended to sue for kidnapping (again almost free if she doesn't have funds) - arrest warrant for father will be issued, kidnapping is a criminal offence -> father will be picked up at the airport if he goes to Thailand (yes, Thailand has computers with that kind of information in nowadays)

There is a post somewhere here on ThaiVisa about an Englishman who did what is described above. The mother took the case to England and the court there of course up-held the Thai court decision and removed custody in England too. That case in in the Supreme Court in Thailand now and there is no way that they will re-instate custody for the father - but he may get some possession of the child if he is lucky

And last, IMO, it would be very wrong to deny a child her Thai background

[Unwisemonkey]

Oh I was going to ask should I make a report at a neighboring police district? Children of police officers in my district go to this school. My wifes mother said some foreboding things at the police station which may have been a rouse, but I don't know... she said "The officer says you should go back to the U.S. because this is Thailand it is not the same as U.S. You are foreigner here it is dangerous for you."

I took this as a threat.

I don't think I can trust police in this district.

[Unwisemonkey]

***********

Taking the child back to your own home country is only an option if that is where you wish to live for the forseeable future.

My experience with Thai courts (having won custody of my kids here) is that they view the parent that is better able to support the child financially and provide a better schooling over and above anything else regardless of that parents sex or nationality.

Not saying that it has come to a divorce situation, but keep that in mind. If you are the one with most of the income, if you are paying for the school that the mother has restricted you access to then there is a major advantage for any future legal action - hence the destroying of that document.

My best advice is to just be strong. And be just.

Excellent post, one thing though

If the father takes the child abroad, then that is not kidnapping but... mother needs almost no funds at all to take it to court and father will have to come here to defend what he has done or he will lose custody. In fact, he will most likely lose custody also if he comes back to defend his decision. The mother will be recommended to sue for kidnapping (again almost free if she doesn't have funds) - arrest warrant for father will be issued, kidnapping is a criminal offence -> father will be picked up at the airport if he goes to Thailand (yes, Thailand has computers with that kind of information in nowadays)

There is a post somewhere here on ThaiVisa about an Englishman who did what is described above. The mother took the case to England and the court there of course up-held the Thai court decision and removed custody in England too. That case in in the Supreme Court in Thailand now and there is no way that they will re-instate custody for the father - but he may get some possession of the child if he is lucky

And last, IMO, it would be very wrong to deny a child her Thai background

So you're saying that England picks and chooses when it will adhere to the Hague convention treaty. Thailand does does not recognize other nations rulings. Great. Well please do me a favor and try not to speculate on other issues that promote trolling e.g. that I or others would deny my children their Thai heritage. I've got enough anxiety and the deck is already stacked against me enough without coming to other foreigners for advice only to begin speculating. I'm looking for solid advice not speculation.

[MikeyIdea]

A couple of things from your post

You having a work permit or not doesn’t matter much, what matters is if you can provide for the childrens future, if you can present them with stability – don’t need work permit to be able to do that

The psychiatric evaluation in your home country can be very important in a future custody case. You need evidence, get it or anything that has mothers name and anti-depressants on it (receipts, bottles), get a certified translation done and get the translation certified by the ministry of counselor affairs at Cheang Wattana Rd – That way it can be presented as formal evidence in a Thai Juvenile court – mother having been on anti-depressants matters (a bit) and you will need every single bit of help you can get

“My daughters came out and saw me and ran up to me happy and excited to see me”

Get video evidence of that before the mother and the relatives teaches them to be afraid of you – you will need to show that evidence in court one day

“She began bawling and sobbing uncontrollably.”

Video is the best evidence there is in court. Video like that is super evidence. Also start writing a diary. Do this while you can, it is likely that the mother and all relatives will teach the children to dislike you or at least put doubts in their minds so they will probably not be as open to you in the future. Children are so easily mislead. We are of course very happy if this does not happen but it doesn’t hurt to have video regardless if it doesn’t become necessary to use it

“My wife really has no means of supporting the children other then her elderly parents”

That will be enough for a Thai court though

[MikeyIdea]

***********

Taking the child back to your own home country is only an option if that is where you wish to live for the forseeable future.

My experience with Thai courts (having won custody of my kids here) is that they view the parent that is better able to support the child financially and provide a better schooling over and above anything else regardless of that parents sex or nationality.

Not saying that it has come to a divorce situation, but keep that in mind. If you are the one with most of the income, if you are paying for the school that the mother has restricted you access to then there is a major advantage for any future legal action - hence the destroying of that document.

My best advice is to just be strong. And be just.

Excellent post, one thing though

If the father takes the child abroad, then that is not kidnapping but... mother needs almost no funds at all to take it to court and father will have to come here to defend what he has done or he will lose custody. In fact, he will most likely lose custody also if he comes back to defend his decision. The mother will be recommended to sue for kidnapping (again almost free if she doesn't have funds) - arrest warrant for father will be issued, kidnapping is a criminal offence -> father will be picked up at the airport if he goes to Thailand (yes, Thailand has computers with that kind of information in nowadays)

There is a post somewhere here on ThaiVisa about an Englishman who did what is described above. The mother took the case to England and the court there of course up-held the Thai court decision and removed custody in England too. That case in in the Supreme Court in Thailand now and there is no way that they will re-instate custody for the father - but he may get some possession of the child if he is lucky

And last, IMO, it would be very wrong to deny a child her Thai background

So you're saying that England picks and chooses when it will adhere to the Hague convention treaty. Thailand does does not recognize other nations rulings. Great. Well please do me a favor and try not to speculate on other issues that promote trolling e.g. that I or others would deny my children their Thai heritage. I've got enough anxiety and the deck is already stacked against me enough without coming to other foreigners for advice only to begin speculating. I'm looking for solid advice not speculation.

I answered what actually is a pretty common response from another poster in cases like this and I gave a correct description of what both can and has happened, as supported by Thai law. I advice that it is a very bad idea to bring a child out of Thailand against her mothers wish.

I never for a second thought that you would do it, I complimented you on your writing, you show very clearly already in your first post that you care about the child first of all

[Unwisemonkey]

***********

Taking the child back to your own home country is only an option if that is where you wish to live for the forseeable future.

My experience with Thai courts (having won custody of my kids here) is that they view the parent that is better able to support the child financially and provide a better schooling over and above anything else regardless of that parents sex or nationality.

Not saying that it has come to a divorce situation, but keep that in mind. If you are the one with most of the income, if you are paying for the school that the mother has restricted you access to then there is a major advantage for any future legal action - hence the destroying of that document.

My best advice is to just be strong. And be just.

Excellent post, one thing though

If the father takes the child abroad, then that is not kidnapping but... mother needs almost no funds at all to take it to court and father will have to come here to defend what he has done or he will lose custody. In fact, he will most likely lose custody also if he comes back to defend his decision. The mother will be recommended to sue for kidnapping (again almost free if she doesn't have funds) - arrest warrant for father will be issued, kidnapping is a criminal offence -> father will be picked up at the airport if he goes to Thailand (yes, Thailand has computers with that kind of information in nowadays)

There is a post somewhere here on ThaiVisa about an Englishman who did what is described above. The mother took the case to England and the court there of course up-held the Thai court decision and removed custody in England too. That case in in the Supreme Court in Thailand now and there is no way that they will re-instate custody for the father - but he may get some possession of the child if he is lucky

And last, IMO, it would be very wrong to deny a child her Thai background

So you're saying that England picks and chooses when it will adhere to the Hague convention treaty. Thailand does does not recognize other nations rulings. Great. Well please do me a favor and try not to speculate on other issues that promote trolling e.g. that I or others would deny my children their Thai heritage. I've got enough anxiety and the deck is already stacked against me enough without coming to other foreigners for advice only to begin speculating. I'm looking for solid advice not speculation.

I answered what actually is a pretty common response from another poster in cases like this and I gave a correct description of what both can and has happened, as supported by Thai law. I advice that it is a very bad idea to bring a child out of Thailand against her mothers wish.

I never for a second thought that you would do it, I complimented you on your writing, you show very clearly already in your first post that you care about the child first of all

I'm not trying to be provocative I apologize if it seemed that way it is not my intent.

[Unwisemonkey]

Sorry I decided this is a question better left to the discretion of a lawyer.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Unwisemonkey

[MikeyIdea]

Oh I was going to ask should I make a report at a neighboring police district? Children of police officers in my district go to this school. My wifes mother said some foreboding things at the police station which may have been a rouse, but I don't know... she said "The officer says you should go back to the U.S. because this is Thailand it is not the same as U.S. You are foreigner here it is dangerous for you."

I took this as a threat.

I don't think I can trust police in this district.

You will have to make the police report in the district it happened

Regarding what the grand mother said: The police didn't threaten you like that, that was the grand mother threatening you. The police would not threaten you (unless you behaved very rudely and not even then would they do it in that way - and you didn't behave rudely, not your style at all), they may support the mothers side because of connections, lies etc. and they can be unwilling to support, unavailable, delaying things etc because of that but they will not openly say something like that, never

IMO, this only tells you that the grand mother is parting with the mother to 100% and is prepared to be a bit nasty about it too

There are 2 steps of "police report" - the first one is just "jaeng kwam" and means nothing really, police won't act and family / juvenile court will not put much weight on one report either (unless there is other supporting evidence like doctors report with bruises or several reports etc). The second level is "saab" (the Thai word for exam) and that one means that you are pushing an issue out-of the control of the police and on to the district atterney. The district atterney (ajjagarn) can decide to drop and pass on to court. The second step matters

You could make a police report about the now already destroyed paper but the police may not want to cooperate = refuse to do it - if they do then you need a lawyer to get it done.

Family/Juvenile court judges don't really like the suing game, it's not beneficial for the child in any way. You present yourself well and always always talk about in the best interest of the child in court and I don't think that it is worth it to make the police report be honest. You can achieve the same by including intent to deny father access to his child when this goes to court one day

[MikeyIdea]

Sorry I decided this is a question better left to the discretion of a lawyer.

You can make court aware of the problem by including it (and how many times = 3 and where) when you file for divorce / custody. It will be the courts decision if they want to request to see journals or not. They most likely won't but it should still matter a bit, everything is up to the impact on the child that you describe and any formal evidence you also can present

[OlafStapleton]

We were married in the U.S.

My children were both born in the U.S.

We have registered our marriage with the authorities, I have a Non-O visa.

I am listed on the birth certificates as the father of these children.

We are currently married not divorced.

Grab the child when nobody looking, get on a plane to USA soon.