Karma - your experience

[Abandon]

do you believe in karma, and if so was there an event that precipitated that decision? do you have any stories of an event you think demonstrates karma?

Is there a contradiction with the Christian notion of forgiveness?

[cdnvic]

Kharma is the basic law of the universe. Every action has an equal, and opposite reaction. Not always in reverse, ie if you steal a wallet it doesn't nessasarily mean yours will be stolen, but the negative energy you create will move on to affect others. We all feel it collectively.

There's no coincidence that the building blocks of life and the largest galaxies are all circular. Everything in the universe works in circles, what comes around goes around..blah blah blah, you see what I mean.

It has nothing to do with what anyone wrote, its all around you everyday.

cv

[chonabot]

Oh the Wheel of Samsara etc .......

[sabaijai]

There are several threads on karma in the Buddhism branch already, but there's always room for more!

Is there a contradiction with the Christian notion of forgiveness?

Some Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, does recognise good works or deeds vs bad, etc. Naturally the 'Jesus forgives all' sects argue against this. In most Protestant versions of Christianity, your deeds are irrelevant since Jesus died for all of humanity's sins. When critics of Xtianity and the Bible point out the archaic proscriptions in the Old Testamant, for example, the Christian well-versed in the New Testament will explain that there are no moral codes that must be adhered to, since the coming of Christ "fulfilled the law". So all those Leviticus verses - and any other seemingly contradictory moral content in the Bible - that sceptics like to quote to try to embarrass Xtians don't embarrass them at all.

In Buddhism your actions do matter, and more importantly it's the intent behind the action that determines the kamma (action) and thereby the result (vipaka). Hence two seemingly identical actions by two different people will create different kamma/vipaka depending on the context, intent, etc.

For me kamma/vipaka as explained in Theravada Buddhism -- skilful or wholesome action (kusala kamma) brings wholesome results (kusala vipaka) -- seems logical since it parallels what we see in the physcial world in many ways (Newtonian physics, for example). So I find the argument persuasive.

Yet I can't say that anything I've consciously experienced in my own life confirms this. I'm of the opinion that if kamma/vipaka works the way the Tiptaka suggests, it's probably too complex for most people to notice in daily life. Teachers I've studied or met with say that sati (awareness) knows.

[robitusson]

do you believe in karma, and if so was there an event that precipitated that decision? do you have any stories of an event you think demonstrates karma?

Is there a contradiction with the Christian notion of forgiveness?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As far as I understand it, the Buddha's teaching on karma is THE fundamental or most essential aspect of the whole Dharma. I think choosing what you think, say or do from moment to moment is the simplest way to see karma in action, as it were. There a three aspects to karma of which only one is our past actions. The other two are the actions we perform at any given moment and the other is the results of those actions taking place at that moment which will be felt immediately. So that means we have a lot more influence over what occurs to us than our past actions determine. At least that's what I understand. Anyone care to comment?

[chownah]

A simple view of karma is that 'actions have consequences'. What you do will effect you and others and likewise what others do will effect them and you. The most important result of this, in my opinion, is that Buddhists don't believe in fate or pre-destiny....the Buddha taught that your efforts bear fruit...either good or bad.

As for Christianity and forgiveness...........forgiveness means being forgiven for committing a sin...Buddhism has no concept of sin. Doing something that bears bad fruit is not a moral problem for Buddhists....its just something that might be avoided by following the path....you don't need to be forgiven, you just need to change your actions/attitudes/path or whatever.

[Neeranam]

One experience that got me really believing in the laws of karma was when i was doing a retreat in McLeood ganj in India where the Dalai Lama lives.

There was an Israeli girl who was totally against the Tibetan monks eating meat. When we had a question/answer session with a very senior Lama, she insulted the monks by comparing them to pigs. A senior foreign monk was pretty upset and told her not to say anything like that about the monks. Straight after this Lama left, we had a meditation and the girl fell asleep, rolling over on the ground and proceeded to snore very loudly for a few minutes - sounding just like a pig! This was obviously karma at work or maybe some magical spell by someone.

[robitusson]

In relation to forgiveness the concept of regret is an important one as far as I understand it. If we commit unskillful or harmful actions then regretting these actions is important in order that we do not repeat them, although without a sense of guilt. A difficult tightrope to walk.

[matthew78]

I wouldn't say I "believe" in karma any more than I "believe" in gravity.

[Abandon]

One experience that got me really believing in the laws of karma was when i was doing a retreat in McLeood ganj in India where the Dalai Lama lives.

There was an Israeli girl who was totally against the Tibetan monks eating meat. When we had a question/answer session with a very senior Lama, she insulted the monks by comparing them to pigs. A senior foreign monk was pretty upset and told her not to say anything like that about the monks. Straight after this Lama left, we had a meditation and the girl fell asleep, rolling over on the ground and proceeded to snore very loudly for a few minutes - sounding just like a pig! This was obviously karma at work or maybe some magical spell by someone.

I like the story. Anyone else with stories? I knew someone who did not follow Buddhism, but one day had a car accident through not paying attention to the road. Skidding to a halt on wet roads he found that between his foot and the brake was a brass plate with a Buddha image on it that had been stuck to the dashboard. He said that this showed him that the Buddha had always been looking after him, but the accident was showing him that he should be more careful about his current choices (karma).

robitusson made one point clear that had been bugging me. Karma as predetermination of all the things that happen to you .... If it was so powerful as to determine all of our experiences, there would be no room for choice, which is the aspect of karma LB was pointing to.

[thaibebop]

Science showed me karma first. Cause and effect ya know. I think science was what led me to Buddism.

[chonabot]

As far as I understand it, the Buddha's teaching on karma is THE fundamental or most essential aspect of the whole Dharma.

I would say that teaching the essence of Not-Self is a also a fundamental aspect of Therevada Buddhism.

The cessation of unskilful actions leading to ills , is another integral concept.

Karma is one of the buzz words of Buddhism , IMO, Sangha, Viyana, Dhukka are as at least relevant.

But to be frank the whole shenanigans has to be taught collectively to even have an inkling of what Buddhism is trying to aspire to.

I have some knowledge of Buddhism , through my A213 World religions part of my OU degree , but I am slow to come into such discussions because I orefer to watch and take notes.

Edited October 19, 2005 by chonabot

[robitusson]

One experience that got me really believing in the laws of karma was when i was doing a retreat in McLeood ganj in India where the Dalai Lama lives.

There was an Israeli girl who was totally against the Tibetan monks eating meat. When we had a question/answer session with a very senior Lama, she insulted the monks by comparing them to pigs. A senior foreign monk was pretty upset and told her not to say anything like that about the monks. Straight after this Lama left, we had a meditation and the girl fell asleep, rolling over on the ground and proceeded to snore very loudly for a few minutes - sounding just like a pig! This was obviously karma at work or maybe some magical spell by someone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like the story. Anyone else with stories? I knew someone who did not follow Buddhism, but one day had a car accident through not paying attention to the road. Skidding to a halt on wet roads he found that between his foot and the brake was a brass plate with a Buddha image on it that had been stuck to the dashboard. He said that this showed him that the Buddha had always been looking after him, but the accident was showing him that he should be more careful about his current choices (karma).

robitusson made one point clear that had been bugging me. Karma as predetermination of all the things that happen to you .... If it was so powerful as to determine all of our experiences, there would be no room for choice, which is the aspect of karma LB was pointing to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I found these talks by Thanissaro Bhikkhu very helpful.

http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/ThanissaroBhikkhu.html

They're all good but the one called Karma and Western Misunderstanding is very good on the topic of this thread. My comprehension is that we have to "play out" the current karma we have accumulated and set about creating positive actions for the present and future. Apparently the more mindful and awakened we become the less power our past karma has over our current state too. In the talk Thanissao Bhikku gives he likens the influence of past karma in the unawakened mind to putting a grain of salt in a glass of water. Whereas to to the more awakened mind it is like putting the grain of salt in a river. Listen to the talk, he explains it much better.

[Abandon]

good talk robitusson , jsut finished it. Went a bit askew on the Q and A though ...

i find thanissaro's talks nice, being half an hour it is easy to keep focussed on the salient points and it means he does not waffle.

[robitusson]

good talk robitusson , jsut finished it. Went  a bit askew on the Q and A though ...

i find thanissaro's talks nice, being half an hour it is easy to keep focussed on the salient points and it means he does not waffle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Definitely. Short 'n sweet is much better. He's got some interesting insights about Thailand in a couple of those talks too, about the seemingly puzzling ways the Thais practise their religion. He has a really good website too, maybe you've seen it already, called accesstoinsight dot something. You'll find it easily.

[sbk]

My brother-in-law has always been cruel and neglectful of his wife, children and dogs (not abusive just uncaring). He now has an illness that is slowly eating his muscle mass away (he swears its diabetes). Personally, I think its all the mean, petty minded things he has said and done finally coming back.

Or, my sister-in-law's first husband was 27 years old when she ran away from home to be with him at the age of 14!! A man that age has to be responsible enough to say no to a child that age, I believe. He obviously didn't believe the same. They had a daughter who is now living with her boyfriend and she is 14.

Yes, I believe in Karma.

[camerata]

Some of the examples here are very much in the traditional and literary tradition of what karma is supposed to be. For example, if I badmouth someone and then accidentally bite my tongue an hour later, it must be karma because the punishment seems to fit the crime. It's a lot like the Western idea of "poetic justice."

I like P.A. Payutto's emphasis on looking for the results of karma in our state of mind. i.e. good actions lead to an improved mental state whereas bad actions lead to a bad mental state.

Some time ago I made a big effort to practise right speech because I thought it would produce the fastest results and the quickest "proof" that following the Dhamma worked. Of course it's a no-brainer that if you are nice to people, most of them will be nice to you. But I was wondering about the ones that refuse to be nice under any circumstances.

After about three months, things were working out as I expected and certain people were being friendlier to me because I had stopped criticizing them ( ), but then I started noticing my intention every time I was about to speak or write, and how the ego was involved in sarcasm, criticism and arguing with people. This awareness of ego as the bad guy worked as a kind of feedback loop that made it increasingly easy to catch myself before saying or doing something I shouldn't.

Then after about a year the test came. Some paranoid American with a whining New York accent tried to pick a fight with me in Villa supermarket. There I was, minding my own business looking for Raisin Bran, and he gives me the old "What are you looking at, man?" routine. Naturally, I walked past him without saying anything and that was the end of it but I noticed that not only didn't it bother me, but I actually felt sorry for the guy coming half way around the world on vacation and feeling compelled to demonstrate how tough he is to strangers in supermarkets. I'm sure that before practising right speech this would have really bugged me, that Fate brought some bozo with a chip on his shoulder half way around the world and put him right in my face. "Why me?" etc etc.

So this to me is good karma - I engaged in good actions and was rewarded with a much calmer state of mind.

[camerata]

Here's a story that may or may not be about bug karma. Last week I was walking out of an underground station when I noticed something big on the front of my shoulder. It was so close that I couldn't focus on it clearly but it was obviously a big green bug of some kind. Since it didn't seemed inclined to move, I blew on it and it flew off.

When I got home I found it had laid three green eggs on my shirt. A friend suggested the bug had chosen me because it sensed I had metta but it could just have been a confused and desperate female (I seem to attract them). Anyway, I gave the eggs to my friend's daughter and a week later they hatched out. Now they are getting big and running round in a jar full of leaves. Hopefully, they'll be set free when they are ready to fly, and the bug will have made a good choice in choosing me in the underground.

[sabaijai]

Here's a story that may or may not be about bug karma. Last week I was walking out of an underground station when I noticed something big on the front of my shoulder. It was so close that I couldn't focus on it clearly but it was obviously a big green bug of some kind. Since it didn't seemed inclined to move, I blew on it and it flew off.

When I got home I found it had laid three green eggs on my shirt. A friend suggested the bug had chosen me because it sensed I had metta but it could just have been a confused and desperate female (I seem to attract them). Anyway, I gave the eggs to my friend's daughter and a week later they hatched out. Now they are getting big and running round in a jar full of leaves. Hopefully, they'll be set free when they are ready to fly, and the bug will have made a good choice in choosing me in the underground. 

Nice one.

[thaibebop]

Here's a story that may or may not be about bug karma. Last week I was walking out of an underground station when I noticed something big on the front of my shoulder. It was so close that I couldn't focus on it clearly but it was obviously a big green bug of some kind. Since it didn't seemed inclined to move, I blew on it and it flew off.

When I got home I found it had laid three green eggs on my shirt. A friend suggested the bug had chosen me because it sensed I had metta but it could just have been a confused and desperate female (I seem to attract them). Anyway, I gave the eggs to my friend's daughter and a week later they hatched out. Now they are getting big and running round in a jar full of leaves. Hopefully, they'll be set free when they are ready to fly, and the bug will have made a good choice in choosing me in the underground. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really Cool!

[Heng]

I used to like to test the cat landing on its feet theory when I was young (from the roof of our house)... they all landed on their feet by the way, no injuries/deaths... but as an adult, I am now allergic to cat hair. A couple of amusing/cruel seduction type situations failed during my MBA years with gals that had cats lying in wait for me (kind of a karma last line of defense) at their condominiums was about the worst of it.

[Abandon]

great stories - just what I was after.

anyone else got any ???

[Abandon]

every 5th of november in the UK people light fires in their gardens in the freezing cold, and burn a dummy human made from old clothes. We also let off fireworks. It is a commemoration of an event in British history when a chap called Guy Fawkes tried to burn down parliamant.

Every Nov 4th I would sneak through all the gardens and light their fires for them hehe

Until one year when I put on too much petrol (stolen from their garden shed) and burnt my head to a crisp. i thought that was the karma expunged, but no - today I lit a big fire of tree cuttings, and it took off like a rocket and toasted 100 m/sqr of land. Barely got it under control without calling the fire engine - it was touch and go for an hour or more.

[meadish_sweetball]

You pyromaniac, you.

[Bang Pra]

do you believe in karma, and if so was there an event that precipitated that decision? do you have any stories of an event you think demonstrates karma?

Is there a contradiction with the Christian notion of forgiveness?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope that I am not off the topic.

My teacher – my g/f who is a devout Buddhist and very learned, tells me about the concept that the “final thought” of ones life can determine the “status” (my word) of the next life irrespective of ones misdeeds during this one.

To me this seems to contradict the Karma logic – in that a single “good” final thought can wipe out a lifetime’s misdeeds.

[camerata]

My teacher – my g/f who is a devout Buddhist and very learned, tells me about the concept that the “final thought” of ones life can determine the “status” (my word) of the next life irrespective of ones misdeeds during this one.

To me this seems to contradict the Karma logic – in that a single “good” final thought can wipe out a lifetime’s misdeeds.

There is a previous thread on this subject at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=42234

[Abandon]

found this one on the www. Seems to be one womans idea of karma - it is called step mother and karma.

As my father-in-law had an evil wife which he was off and on with for a year it made it difficult to plan for certain aspects of my wedding. Finally - the "Evil One" left and it was a great relief to the entire family. I figured all my problems were solved. Two days before the wedding my soon to be father-in-law announces that he is back together with his wife and she HAD to be included in every aspect of MY wedding. This caused an enormous fight between my fiance, his family, and myself. It was agreed to that he could bring her as long as he kept a short leash on her. Also, he was to immediately leave with her if she made any scene whatsoever.

The day of the wedding rehearsal came. We were sitting in the church when the wedding consultant asked that all members of the wedding party and the parents come to the back of the church. The Evil One stood up and proceeded to walk to the back of the church at which time I told her she was not a parent and to sit down. She looked at me as if I was Satan and burst into tears. Needless to say she stayed in the bathroom crying at the top of her lungs the entire rehearsel which was fine with all of us. I never saw her again that evening.

The day of the wedding came and of course I did not have a floral arrangement for her. Good thing as I have no idea where she would have pinned it as she was dressed so inappropriately. A strapless micro mini jet black dress with 5-inch stilletto heels is what she wore to a very formal wedding - the woman was 52 - "Tart" came to mind. The wedding went off without as so much as a peep from the Evil One. I have a feeling she was threatened with great bodily harm if she made a noise.

Off to the reception at a private golf and country club. The Evil One started making a scene as she was not being included in the family portraits. I announced that she could be included if and only if my father-in-law agreed to pay for the pictures taken that she was in as I would guarantee that they would split before I got the proof's back. He agreed!

Well before a "family picture" was taken the Evil One was walking towards the waterfall area on a cobblestone path where we were all waiting when my 2-year old niece ran past and frightened her. Needless to say the Evil One lost her balance on her five inch hills and fell on her butt into the pond! It was absolutely perfect. My father-in-law and the Evil One both left and the rest of the evening was a blast! I guess what goes around comes around!

[orchis]

It could also be that your lack of compassion for a fellow human being and the tears and fights created on your own wedding could at some point come and bite you in the butt.

[suegha]

Is there a contradiction with the Christian notion of forgiveness?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't comment more than there has been on Karma.

However, there is no contradiction with the notion of forgiveness. It is not the forgiveness that is important per se, it's the thoughts and actions afterwards. An interesting distinction between the OT and NT meaning of repentance, they both essentially mean the same thing, however, the OT carries more of a meaning of 'returning to the correct path', whereas the NT carries more of the meaning of 'thinking differently'. I think this is in keeping with Buddhist teaching.

[Jersey_UK]

As I am in the religous section anyway.............

I am a 110% happy heathen. Not sure if this is exactly what Karma is / relates to - cos the only buddhist stuff I know is from the odd bit on telly.

But many years ago I REALISED that the saying "what goes around comes around" is pretty true, not only for when you do bad stuff, but also when you do good stuff.

Doing good stuff for people (no matter how minor) when you do NOT have to, always seems to come back, usually from a totally unexpected source.

I dunno whether this is Karma or indeed religous anything. But it sure as s#it works in practice.

Also has the unexpected benefit of occassionally baffling the s#it outta folk trying to work out what the catch is

One of my favourite sayings (no idea where it comes from) is "you ask me why, I asked why not".