What Do You Like About Chiang Rai? Dislikes?

[Trebek]

Hi there,

I am thinking about moving to CR with my son. From what I've read, Chiang Rai seems like a great place to live for those of us who enjoy a laid back lifestyle.

Since no place is perfect, feel free to include things specific to your city that you do not care for as well.

Cheers,

Trebek

[Limbo]

After thinking a long time I think my answer is that there are lot of nice foreigners living in Chiang Rai. So for me it is my friends!

The 'farang'-community can very roughly be divided in the 'pre-Big C group' and the 'post-Big C group'.

The 'pre-Big C group' still remembers the time people started to buy refrigerators and filled them with bottles of water (meat and other food was still bought fresh from the market).

The time you only could buy Nescafe and bread at the old wooden store on the Tannalai Road (they traditionally provided the first missionaries with this kind of things).

The time that most houses in the villages didn't have windows and doors yet, if you didn't count old paperbags framed with bamboo. The time that many young girls from this area went to work in towns close to the Malaysian border.

The times there was no internet and no mobile phones, two airplanes a week, two times the Bangkok Post in a week. No video-shops, no satellites.

But a lot of dust ...

One bar: The Baitong Bar of Canadian Ian and his friend German Reiner. About twenty regulars and some foreigners from Chiang Mai popping in once in a while with the latest news from outside.

The time that hardly any Thai resident of Chiang Rai spoke English. The time that you had to travel all the way to Penang to renew your visa.

The time every hour about three cars could be seen passing Hiyek.

The bells of the 'samlors' made up the traffic noise ...

The oldtimers had to stick together and they still do!

The 'post-Big C group' arrived when Chiang Rai already looked western in many ways: The houses of stone and cement, the clothes, a lot of motorcycles, cars, many people speaking English.

For them it is much more difficult to understand Thai culture and many of them don't seem to see the necessity to do so.

But there are a lot of good people among them as well

It is very easy to check to which group a foreigner belongs:

You just say 'hello'!

The 'pre Big C group' will answer your greetings.

The 'post Big C group' will look in another direction.

(Not all of them luckywise)

Limbo.

[Limbo]

Concerning the 'post Big C group':

I think many of the Europeans are retired and divorced in their home country.

After the prices in traditional old-age sanctuaries Spain and Italy skyrocketed Thailand became a cheap alternative. Their Euro is worth a lot more here (one of the reasons they buy 4wd trucks even when living at excellent roads). The modern means of communication bring Thailand closer to Europe.

And a pat on a shoulder by a young and attractive Thai lady does the rest.

After decades they start to feel young again and wear short pants again (look in Big C).

In the American 'post Big C group' it seems that missionaries are overrepresented.

Also for them Chiang Rai is a good choice. It is much safer to save souls here than in Africa and economically seen you can save souls here for much less than even half the price you could do in developed countries. And being able to look CNN every night will keep homesickness away. And there is still a lot of poverty, so it relatively easy to round up a target group.

Of course none of you would recognize yourself in the above

Limbo.

[Limbo]

Mr. Trebek, sorry for my joking.

Chiang Rai has a nice climate, clean air, friendly people (Thai, Chinese, Shan and Bignosians) and the surroundings are beautiful. The town is quite and lovely boring.

A lot of good and pleasant restaurants, Thai and western, some nice meeting places for foreigners.

There are three good schools for younger (English speaking) kids: The AMEC bilingual at Ban San Sai Noi and the Montessori and St. Mary's at the Rimkok.

There are three good hospitals for basic care, the Provincial (long waiting times, but cheap), the Overbrook and the Kasemrad Sriburin.

There are two 'universities', the Rajabhat and the Mae Fah Luang.

All kind of sport accommodation, tenniscourts, swimmingpools etc etc (for the people calling golf a sport there are many alternatives as well ).

Catholics do it in their church and Protestants in their own. Buddhists have a hundred 'wats' to choose among and atheists, well, they do it everywhere.

Many cultures, each in their own way contributing to Chiang Rai.

There are worse places in the world!

Limbo.

PS. And there is Big C of course!

Edited October 20, 2005 by Limbo

[Potter]

Hi there,

I am thinking about moving to CR with my son.  From what I've read, Chiang Rai seems like a great place to live for those of us who enjoy a laid back lifestyle.

Since no place is perfect,  feel free to include things specific to your city that you do not care for as well.

Cheers,

Trebek

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Possitives:

* Friendly people - both farrangs and thais.

* I am told to drive carefully when finishing a fun night out.

* Lots of good bars.

* Almost no hassles with city steet sellers etc.

* Happy faces and kids smiling and waving hello when going for an off road motorbike ride.

* Easy traffic.

* International airport.

* BigC.

* Lots of good thai restaurents.

* Cheap and good value accomodation.

* Good doctors for both my pets and my family.

* Clean air.

* Lots of mountains.

* Very few problems with floodings (compared with other places in Thailand)

* Cheap and best overall quality massage in Thailand.

* Soon will have Texco Lotus to open.

* Near Chiang Mai, where everything is possible.

* Best weather in Thailand - This also the thais agree with.

Negatives:

* I am yet to taste a good steak (pardon me if I seem arrogant to some people)

* Connecting flights at bangkok sometimes a long waiting time.

* General lack of quality. Example I had some very bad painters paint my house and I had an accident on my motorbike in the mountains caused by a malfunctioning breaks, that just were checked before the ride.

* Not enough parking spaces at BigC during rush hours.

* At times a bit boring when nothing to do.

[Trebek]

Excellent! Well thought out answers from both of you.

American missionaries eh? I thought it would be nice to be surrounded by Buddhists for a change.

Cheers,

Trebek

[Limbo]

[quote=Potter,2005-

* I am yet to taste a good steak (pardon me if I seem arrogant to some people)

Dear Mr. Singasong Potter,

I think almost everybody agrees that 'The Bakery' (mentioned already by Tayto and me in some other topics) is a superb steakhouse (beef, pork, salmon, oistrich, between 180 and 240 Baht).

And a perfect 'ambiance'. Very few people, almost exclusively Thai.

I hope Chang35Baht forgives me that I mention it. I recommend it, which comes very close to advertising. But I won't give their website. I don't even know if they have one.

From Hayek (Porkhun, King Mengrai Monument) throught the gate with the portret of His Majesty direction Ban Panjamorn/Wiangchai. After about two kilometer. About hundred meter before you turn to the left to Sanam Kila (the sportfields).

It is a soi on your left hand with a big yellow sign with neonlight.

You might enjoy it!

Limbo.

[chownah]

It is my understanding that the high speed internet connections in Chiang Rai are really bad.....very slow alot of the time (slower than a dial up) and not functioning at all sometimes. I have a dial up so this information is based on the information contained in a topic that you can see below this topic in the Chiang Rai forum. You could go and look yourself.

[Nam Kao]

How are TGs up there?

[Limbo]

How are TGs up there?

Form Bangkok up to Chiang Rai you can take TG 180 (at 07.30)

and TG 182 (at 18.00)

They are fine (Airbus 380)! Give it a try!

Limbo

[Limbo]

It is my understanding that the high speed internet connections in Chiang Rai are really bad.....very slow alot of the time (slower than a dial up) and not functioning at all sometimes.  I have a dial up so this information is based on the information contained in a topic that you can see below this topic in the Chiang Rai forum.  You could go and look yourself.

I also still use the dial up (T-net 335 Baht a month excluding the calls).

Like everything in Chiang Rai also the internet is slow.

Let's say you would be looking at a portrait. It might take 40 seconds, starting with the eyebrows, before finally the moustache comes into the picture.

Limbo

[Judge]

After thinking a long time I think my answer is that there are lot of nice foreigners living in Chiang Rai. So for me it is my friends!

The 'farang'-community can very roughly be divided in the 'pre-Big C group' and the 'post-Big C group'.

The 'pre-Big C group' still remembers the time people started to buy refrigerators and filled them with bottles of water (meat and other food was still bought fresh from the market).

The time you only could buy Nescafe and bread at the old wooden store on the Tannalai Road (they traditionally provided the first missionaries with this kind of things).

The time that most houses in the villages didn't have windows and doors yet, if you didn't count old paperbags framed with bamboo. The time that many young girls from this area went to work in towns close to the Malaysian border.

The times there was no internet and no mobile phones, two airplanes a week, two times the Bangkok Post in a week. No video-shops, no satellites.

But a lot of dust ...

One bar: The Baitong Bar of Canadian Ian and his friend German Reiner. About twenty regulars and some foreigners from Chiang Mai popping in once in a while with the latest news from outside.

The time that hardly any Thai resident of Chiang Rai spoke English. The time that you had to travel all the way to Penang to renew your visa.

The time every hour about three cars could be seen passing Hiyek.

The bells of the 'samlors' made up the traffic noise ...

The oldtimers had to stick together and they still do!

The 'post-Big C group' arrived when Chiang Rai already looked western in many ways: The houses of stone and cement, the clothes, a lot of motorcycles, cars, many people speaking English.

For them it is much more difficult to understand Thai culture and many of them don't seem to see the necessity to do so.

But there are a lot of good people among them as well 

It is very easy to check to which group a foreigner belongs:

You just say 'hello'!

The 'pre Big C group' will answer your greetings.

The 'post Big C group' will look in another direction.

(Not all of them luckywise)

Limbo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I seem to remember a time where these two worlds overlapped.

Around 1991-92 the best Italian restauarant in Northern Thailand (La Cantina?) was in Chiang Rai -not Chiang Mai - and the Easy Bar which had great burgers, was Thai run but catered to Westerners. A few bakeries sold real, good, cinnamon rolls there long before Chiang Mai discovered them, and there was that famous pie place.

Hookers were cheap and beautiful and lots would visit the guesthouses in the daytime looking for "boyfriends".

Chiang Rai had better foreign restaurants than Chiang Mai back then but was also a lot more laid back.

In my opinion, it has gone downhill since then, but I still enjoy it.

[mumbojumbo]

Trebek,

Don't listen to anything Limbo says. He is a paid official from big C and gets a kickback evertime he mentions them.

[chang35baht]

I sincerely hope Limbo that you haven`t upset any of your post BigC friends who I`m sure make up the majority of your friends.

Maybe from now on there will be more people than normal turning the other way when you say hello my good friend. Cheers from a post BigC buddy.

[Limbo]

I sincerely hope Limbo that you haven`t upset any of your post BigC friends who I`m sure make up the majority of your friends.

Maybe from now on there will be more people than normal turning the other way when you say hello my good friend. Cheers from a post BigC buddy.

Dear. Mr. Columbo,

The choice of your nick is pure clandestine advertising for Bo's Place (the old Bierstube and expat place number 1 of Chiang Rai, not to mistake for Hamburger number 1 which is the second expat place but in Bandu).

Everybody is guessing who you are but until now in vain.

Do you (or anybody else) know a good homestay in the Chiang Rai area, not to far from town?

Limbo

[chang35baht]

Actually Limbo, It was the first nick I could think of. It`s certainly not meant to be an Ad for Bo`s place. Besides I don`t drink the draft beer in there. That may be one clue as to my identity because there are not to many people in there that don`t drink it.

Keep on guessing and we can maybe have some fun along the way.

OKTERVER DOMMIT.

Cheers.

[gerry1011]

Hi there,

I am thinking about moving to CR with my son.  From what I've read, Chiang Rai seems like a great place to live for those of us who enjoy a laid back lifestyle.

Since no place is perfect,  feel free to include things specific to your city that you do not care for as well.

Cheers,

Trebek

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Possitives:

* Friendly people - both farrangs and thais.

* I am told to drive carefully when finishing a fun night out.

* Lots of good bars.

* Almost no hassles with city steet sellers etc.

* Happy faces and kids smiling and waving hello when going for an off road motorbike ride.

* Easy traffic.

* International airport.

* BigC.

* Lots of good thai restaurents.

* Cheap and good value accomodation.

* Good doctors for both my pets and my family.

* Clean air.

* Lots of mountains.

* Very few problems with floodings (compared with other places in Thailand)

* Cheap and best overall quality massage in Thailand.

* Soon will have Texco Lotus to open.

* Near Chiang Mai, where everything is possible.

* Best weather in Thailand - This also the thais agree with.

Negatives:

* I am yet to taste a good steak (pardon me if I seem arrogant to some people)

* Connecting flights at bangkok sometimes a long waiting time.

* General lack of quality. Example I had some very bad painters paint my house and I had an accident on my motorbike in the mountains caused by a malfunctioning breaks, that just were checked before the ride.

* Not enough parking spaces at BigC during rush hours.

* At times a bit boring when nothing to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

very complete answer about the advantages and disadvantages of living in Chiangrai.

There is only one thing I would add:

I love Chiangrai because I feel like I am really living in Thailand, while Chiangmai seems to me more like a "mass tourism city", with all the inconvenience that goes together with it.

[Judge]

There is only one thing I would add:

I love Chiangrai because I feel like I am really living in Thailand, while Chiangmai seems to me more like a "mass tourism city", with all the inconvenience that goes together with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With "inconveniences" like really good DVD stores, great movie theaters, excellent English book stores, pretty good foreign restaurants of all different types, health food stores, English libraries, lots of farang friends, lots of night life and so on, I can put up with not being in the "real" Thailand much better than being bored silly in Chiang Rai with almost no entertainment!

[chownah]

If you are traveling into Chiang Rai city and you follow the bus route when you turn off of the super highway (really, that's what they call it, LOL) and then you get about half way to the bus depot, where the street angles slightly to the right, if you look on the left you'll see a shop building with living quarters above and they painted it orange...I mean they painted it BRIGHT ORANGE. I really like it and since this is a post about what we like about Chiang Rai I thought I'd share this with you. The first time I saw this building with its new paint job I said to my wife, "Wow, Look at that building! Its easy to tell that they pained that building orange!!! No doubt about it!!!"......really, that's what I said......she just shrugged.

Uncle Donald, have you ever been to Chiang Rai? If you come to visit I think you'd enjoy the orange building.....really, I do. Someday if I'm rich or own an orange orchard I'm going to extract some essence of orange and pay some hoodlums to put this scent on the building daily. I think if I did that it would be a candidate for inclusion in some TAT promotions.

Chownah

[Judge]

If you are traveling into Chiang Rai city and you follow the bus route when you turn off of the super highway (really, that's what they call it, LOL) and then you get about half way to the bus depot, where the street angles slightly to the right, if you look on the left you'll see a shop building with living quarters above and they painted it orange...I mean they painted it BRIGHT ORANGE.  I really like it and since this is a post about what we like about Chiang Rai I thought I'd share this with you.  The first time I saw this building with its new paint job I said to my wife, "Wow, Look at that building! Its easy to tell that they pained that building orange!!! No doubt about it!!!"......really, that's what I said......she just shrugged.

Uncle Donald, have you ever been to Chiang Rai?  If you come to visit I think you'd enjoy the orange building.....really, I do.  Someday if I'm rich or own an orange orchard I'm going to extract some essence of orange and pay some hoodlums to put this scent on the building daily.  I think if I did that it would be a candidate for inclusion in some TAT promotions.

Chownah

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Orange building?

Wow, thanks for telling me. I cancelled work for the next few days and I'm off to Chiang Rai to do some sight-seeing!

[Trebek]

There is only one thing I would add:

I love Chiangrai because I feel like I am really living in Thailand, while Chiangmai seems to me more like a "mass tourism city", with all the inconvenience that goes together with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With "inconveniences" like really good DVD stores, great movie theaters, excellent English book stores, pretty good foreign restaurants of all different types, health food stores, English libraries, lots of farang friends, lots of night life and so on, I can put up with not being in the "real" Thailand much better than being bored silly in Chiang Rai with almost no entertainment!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems that everyone has their own idea of entertainment. I live near the entertaining city of Austin Texas but after living in the city until age 32, I moved 20 miles away and live in a quaint little town called Bastop. I love the quiet streets, starlit nights, wild animals, fishing, bicycling, ect. True I don't see a starbucks on every corner, nor a metropolitan opera. But small town living works for me (the rednecks get tiresome). Chiang Rai might be more cosmopolitan than what I prefer.

The guy who wrote "Chiang Mai if your under 40. Chiang Rai if your over 40" makes sense to me.

Cheers,

Trebek

[Limbo]

The guy who wrote "Chiang Mai if your under 40. Chiang Rai if your over 40" makes sense to me.

Cheers,

Trebek

Mr. Trebek, please accept my friendship!

You are the first accusing me of having sense in this forum.

And concerning Mr. Judge's remarks: There can be hundred nice places in Chiang Mai, but you can visit only one at the time!

But from Chiang Rai it is great to make a trip to Chiang Mai (190 kms), or to Mae Sai (65 kms), or to Chiang Saen (67 kms), or to Payao (90 kms) or to Chiang Khong (105 kms).

And to go to our excellent DVD shops takes at its most twenty minutes, where you would have to to count for an hour at least in Chiang Mai.

And finally, what these rascals in Chiang Mai probably don't understand: They also will be over 40 one day .

Limbo.

[gerry1011]

There is only one thing I would add:

I love Chiangrai because I feel like I am really living in Thailand, while Chiangmai seems to me more like a "mass tourism city", with all the inconvenience that goes together with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With "inconveniences" like really good DVD stores, great movie theaters, excellent English book stores, pretty good foreign restaurants of all different types, health food stores, English libraries, lots of farang friends, lots of night life and so on, I can put up with not being in the "real" Thailand much better than being bored silly in Chiang Rai with almost no entertainment!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, my comments were not ment at "competing" with CM foreign residents, but ok.

I maintain that CM has too many inconvenience to make my life enjoyable, compared to the few advantages of living in such a mass tourism city.

I have DVD shops in my own city (north of CR), but even prefer to go to Myanmar, where the quality is better, the CDs are cheaper, and where the latest releases are available before they can be found in CM... Now, I should also add that I don't spend al lot of my time in front of the TV...

Great movie theater in CM? Yes, you are right. But I am equaly happy to watch movies at home.

Excellent english bookstores? It has less importance for me, since I read thai (after 3 years, so it means everybody can do it), and for the rest we also have Asia Books, etc... not that bad I thought.

Pretty good foreign restaurants? Yes, you are right. When I need a good argentinian steack I go to Fillmore East in CM. But for the rest I am really happy with thai food and Hamburger No1 in Bandu. Even if sometimes I go with my friends (yes, I have friends too) (many) to an ostrich restaurant, the Italian or German restaurant in front of Night Bazaar, Anantara, Phu Chai Sai, Wiang Inn buffet, ... In other words, no problem to find pizzas, schnizels, cordon bleu, etc... Of course you must know where these restaurants are located, since you can't find them between two souvenir shops (In fact we don't have many souvenir shops either )

Health food stores? uh? I eat enough vegetables and fruit, do I need to go to a store instead of the market? (the canned health food types of things are ok for americans, but I though I should stay away from it )

Lot's of farang friends? You would be surprised how many farangs live in CR area.

But they do not all live in the same street... They are mostly living somewhere around the city.

And again, when you speak thai you can also have thai friends... I am happy with that.

Lot's of night life? Oh yes, you are right. But not everybody enjoys life the same way. Bars are not really my cup of tea (can I say so? ), but I understand the needs of the others, no problems. Now, those who think that CR has no night life are wrong (you can even find bar girls here too! Yes! incredible ). But discotheques are mostly crowded with thais, not only farangs...

I guess that for you "Chiangrai" means that little area near the bus station and the night bazaar. But it is bigger than that, you know?

Oh, by the way, I am in the "younger than 40yrs old" group... and love CR

[mumbojumbo]

The CM people are happy with:

Traffic approaching Bkk status.

Polution

Construction torn city

Night bazaar you have to walk sideways in

Let them have it. By the way, many CM'rs have moved to CR to get away from this in the last couple years.

All i want is a Mcdonalds.

I think the new Tesco Lotus in Mai Sai is crap.

[Mymechew]

Hi there,

I am thinking about moving to CR with my son.  From what I've read, Chiang Rai seems like a great place to live for those of us who enjoy a laid back lifestyle.

Since no place is perfect,  feel free to include things specific to your city that you do not care for as well.

Cheers,

Trebek

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not so many farangs/tourists ........ Too many farangs/tourists

Great Thai food ........ Not enough good farang food

Great climate ......... Too much rain, heat, humidity

I think the most important issue for you to consider is why you want to move to Chiang Rai – or Thailand. The biggest disappointment some farangs have here is that they can’t live the same lifestyle as they were accustomed to in their own country. Thailand is not like your country! Each day you live here you are reminded of that through many minor and sometimes major inconvenient, strange or frustrating experiences. Maintaining perspective is important – and remembering that you left behind many things you didn’t like about your own country/culture. Chiang Rai is not for everyone but for some of us its better than most other places.

Mymechew

[chownah]

There's a really big recycling company in Chiang Rai and I really like it....it is located at the south edge of town on a wide street which looks like it was at one time considered to by the main entry into the city from the south, but now gets bypassed by most everyone who busily scurry along the superhighway (that's what they call it) making their way into town. It's a tall old warehouse style building. Inside there are various areas where the different types of recycled stuff is dumped, sorted, and stored...but it mostly has no dividers so its like one huge huge room with different activities happening in different areas. The place where they handle the plastic has the musty smell of decay from the clinging bits of whatever it is that is smeared on the plastic, the place where they have old motors and the like smell of motor oil, the place where they use cutting torches smell like burnt metal with clouds of smoke wafting slowly to the roof far above.......and all of this is diffusely lit like a Rembrandt masterpiece!!!! People scurrying back and forth among vaguely sorted piles of old stuff on the verge of becoming new again......be sure to take your camera!!!!!

Edited October 26, 2005 by chownah

[Tokker]

I am still looking for a delicious and cheap baguette with cheese. In Cambodia and especially Vietnam they're selling great baguettes on every corner of the street. Here the bread seems to get soft and mushy (is that a real word?) an hour after they've come out of the oven ( Limbo, maybe you can talk about this with your Big C connections because the big C baguettes seems to transform themselves after you buy them. They seem fine when you buy'em but when you want to actually eat it a few hours later, you're thinking "Is this the same baguette as the one that I bought?" )

The same about pizza's: I am aware of the fact that real cheese (not that cheddar crap) is an expensive product around here, but is 200 bath really justified? Where are all you Italians out there? I am shure any one of you can do a better job.

Of course it is likely that I don't know my way around CR well enough, so if somebody could enlighten me...

[Limbo]

Mymechew wrote:

Thailand is not like your country! Each day you live here you are reminded of that through many minor and sometimes major inconvenient, strange or frustrating experiences. Maintaining perspective is important – and remembering that you left behind many things you didn’t like about your own country/culture.

My two Baht:

Yes, maintaining perspective ..... You hit the nail on the head!

Living in Chiang Rai (or Thailand) is a little bit like being a deaf and dumb illiterate in the west.

The language makes it difficult to understand what is going on around you and the fact that you cannot express yourself is very frustrating.

My respect for Gerry1011, who cut the knot and learned himself Thai. This is the best way to fight alienation I think.

Aside from the linguistic problem there is the cultural difference. It is very difficult to learn to understand the Thai culture from within, if not impossible.

If you don't know the language you can only learn by observing Thai behaviour.

And the minimal form of integration should be showing respect by adapting the Thai way to behave in certain situations. Maybe via this roundabout way there is a chance to get some understanding of the cultural coherence.

What is happening now in Chiang Rai, is that the foreigners are creating islands.

Like mini-societies, enclaves, very inward oriented.

A little bit like North-African immigrants do in the big towns of Europe.

Limbo.

[Thetyim]

There's a really big recycling company in Chiang Rai and I really like it....it is located at the south edge of town on a wide street which looks like it was at one time considered to by the main entry into the city from the south, ................................................................................

...........................................

................................................................................

................................................

People scurrying back and forth among vaguely sorted piles of old stuff on the verge of becoming new again......be sure to take your camera!!!!!

Do you have a link or a phone number please ?

It's the wife's birthday in a couple of weeks, I need to get her something special

[chownah]

There's a really big recycling company in Chiang Rai and I really like it....it is located at the south edge of town on a wide street which looks like it was at one time considered to by the main entry into the city from the south, ................................................................................

...........................................

................................................................................

................................................

People scurrying back and forth among vaguely sorted piles of old stuff on the verge of becoming new again......be sure to take your camera!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you have a link or a phone number please ?

It's the wife's birthday in a couple of weeks, I need to get her something special

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry, I don't....but no need to call in advance....they've got just about anything you could imagine!! and you won't believe the prices!!!