Thaksin, Red Shirts Cast Shadow Over Yingluck Govt

[lannarebirth]

As to the question your username asks, I think if you ever take the time to learn anything about provincial politics your answer will come easy.

My decision on resettlement will not be influenced by politics but by the attitudes of the people living there. If not for the fact that a lot of the doomsday posters on this forum do actually live upcountry, my answer would have come a lot easier.

You should read that book i posted yesterday. You can read the first couple of chapters online. That will give you some idea about attitudes of people,

http://books.google.com/books?id=-gW9Z0-q_xwC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Bkkorupcountry]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

Well my predictions are coming true, sadly.

Thaksin, the thin end of the globalist wedge. By agreement he'll move aside and become a "commerce facilitator", as ASEAN breaks down the Thai borders. Death to Thailand from within and without.

http://www.cfr.org/t...nd_thai_-070511

I read the first few paragraphs and stopped as it's obvious to me that author shares the same opinion as most of the anti-Reds on this forum. In any case, this article is merely an opinion and not exactly gospel, is it?

[SICHONSTEVE]

I'm just watching the Thai news and I see (from what I can make out) that maybe up to a million Cambodians want to come to Thailand to work now on account of the 300 baht minimum salary promise - oh dear so that's 1 million Thai jobs down the pan then!!!!

Nice one Yingluck!!! I'm sure the people who voted you in will applaud that!! ha ha ha ha!!!

Steve 600,000 is what my wife has just seen on the news bar on channel 3. Still innit good?

Yes I see 600,000 first time but then they mentioned 1,000,000 so assumed that this may be the anticipated amount. When will they realise what Thaksin and his Pheu Thai party is all about??? His policies were disastrous before and these extremely ill-thought out ones will top that no doubt!!!

Edited July 12, 2011 by SICHONSTEVE

[lannarebirth]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

Well my predictions are coming true, sadly.

Thaksin, the thin end of the globalist wedge. By agreement he'll move aside and become a "commerce facilitator", as ASEAN breaks down the Thai borders. Death to Thailand from within and without.

http://www.cfr.org/t...nd_thai_-070511

I read the first few paragraphs and stopped as it's obvious to me that author shares the same opinion as most of the anti-Reds on this forum. In any case, this article is merely an opinion and not exactly gospel, is it?

It is a book by a collection of authors, most of whom are recognized as experts on Thailand. I'm not sure any historical writing should be treated as gospel (nor should the gospel be) but I find value in works created in good faith by persons without an obvious agenda.

BTW; The author doesn't share any of the opinions of the anti or pro reds on here, at least in the book, as far as I can tell. You must be a prescient and discerning man to have groked that in a mere couple of paragraphs. Education isn't for everyone.

Edited July 12, 2011 by lannarebirth

[SICHONSTEVE]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

Well my predictions are coming true, sadly.

Thaksin, the thin end of the globalist wedge. By agreement he'll move aside and become a "commerce facilitator", as ASEAN breaks down the Thai borders. Death to Thailand from within and without.

http://www.cfr.org/t...nd_thai_-070511

I read the first few paragraphs and stopped as it's obvious to me that author shares the same opinion as most of the anti-Reds on this forum. In any case, this article is merely an opinion and not exactly gospel, is it?

All posts are peoples opinions unless they are pure facts relating to the topic subject. Of course they are not gospel but you "reds" must admit that everything isn't exactly going swimmingly for Khun Yingluck as everyone and everything is coming back to bite her.

First rule in politics is don't promise what you can't deliver - according to the experts this is exactly what she has done and done it spectacularly wrong at that!!

Abhisit must be having a right good chuckle to himself, don't you think???

[473geo]

With reference to the OP.......many on this forum made a big song and dance about the 'red shirts' being on a daily salary....there was no other reason for their presence in BKK

Now if there was to be another demonstration, based on this thinking......

Any idea who would fund it?........or in reality is it never going to happen

[Mosha]

With ref to the OP. Burning issue may be a poor choice of words too.

[Jirapa]

Don't be stupid he got fired. That's what happens when you lose in politics as no one want's a loser

Are you just bored now?

Ah, ThaiVisa forums. Ya gotta love 'em!

The Taksin's have won and all you "wanna be yellow shirts" have lost and the "I don't give a shit's" like me, who don't have a vote anyway, have seen a fair and democratic election so that's it! Live with it!

[rubl]

More voted for him than for the other parties. They have the right to do so, on the basis of one man/woman, one vote.

The latest proportional-vote result I saw, which was Wikipedia a few days ago, said that PTP got 48.91% of the (75% turnout) vote. So I'm afraid that your statement "more voted for him" is possibly incorrect ?

I think my statement is correct. No other party got more than 48.91%, did they?

Strictly speaking, if 48.91% voted for PT, 51.09% didn't vote for them like in voted for others, did a no-vote, or invalidated their ballot somehow

(PS sorry, I studied mathematics for a while)

[BigJohnnyBKK]

At the end of the day, as long as he can improve the welfare, particularly of the poor people, then he has done right in my book.<br />

I'm not pro-yellow, but realize that Thaksin was just ensuring his popularity, I seriously doubt any true desire to improve the lot of the poor. The fact is their lot will only be improved by more resources put into education and by overall growth and development of the country, it's absolutely impossible for welfare-state programs to do so, there's just too many people in desperate need, it's the family networks that holds things together for them not the government.

from the Economist article:

>The poor, and their allies in Ms Yingluck's party, must accept that they have to protect private property rights and the rule of law and also that they must not let Mr Thaksin back into Thailand, no matter how much they love him.

"protect" the rule of law assumes there's ever been a degree of such but no, more like the golden rule, he with the gold writes them.

> The middle classes, including their allies in the army and the royal palace, need to accept that if Thailand is to be a democracy, the will of the voters must triumph.

My understanding is that they would like only the educated professional and merchant classes to have the vote, that's their solution to the problem of having such stupid voters up-country.

> Hardest of all, Mr Thaksin must accept that he really does have to retire, if he wants his country to flourish and his positive legacies – including political empowerment and poverty reduction – to stand the test of time. But if he and his sister insist on a comeback, he may yet have to take responsibility for the final fiery death of a once-promising democratic nation.

A bit overblown but I agree, but think a snowball's chance in hell he's going to do any retiring anytime soon. If he's smart he'll at least be a bit patient, consolidate power for a couple of years before trying to come back.

If the other side is smart they'll realize, as have all major players in the so-called democracies back home, you don't have to actually help the common people, you just have to make them *think* you're trying to, bread and circuses, go through the motions, lip service.

The problem is the powers that be here have such arrogant pride that pandering to the masses as Thaksin was so smart to do would be a huge loss of face for them, but that's how it works folks, face it, suck it up and let the people think they have a real democracy. Short-sighted indeed, if they had just put some work and money into persuading the poor they care they wouldn't have lost so much. Som nam na. . .

[rubl]

Don't be stupid he got fired. That's what happens when you lose in politics as no one want's a loser

Are you just bored now?

Ah, ThaiVisa forums. Ya gotta love 'em!

The Taksin's have won and all you "wanna be yellow shirts" have lost and the "I don't give a shit's" like me, who don't have a vote anyway, have seen a fair and democratic election so that's it! Live with it!

We live with the election result, no real problem there. That doesn't mean no-one can correct you on the 'fired k. Abhisit' issue. He stepped down as he said he would. So calm down, please

Edited July 12, 2011 by rubl

[lungmi]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

Well my predictions are coming true, sadly.

Thaksin, the thin end of the globalist wedge. By agreement he'll move aside and become a "commerce facilitator", as ASEAN breaks down the Thai borders. Death to Thailand from within and without.

http://www.cfr.org/t...nd_thai_-070511

good link, thank you.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Then FWIW, I can tell you the vast majority - vast - of Thais living here are warm, caring, and generous people.  Individually, they are interesting, and interested in more than just making a baht.  It's really a joy to walk down the street and be stopped by strangers just wanting to chat a bit.  Having learned a fair bit of the culture, I find it very easy to get along with almost anyone.  I really can recommend living in Issan.  <br /><br />Just my opinion, of course.  But I'd never move to BKK after living here.<br />

I wholeheartedly agree, the poor people are much nicer than those with money. But you have to learn Thai - worth it for many reasons! And you won't get intellectual stimulation.

But if I didn't need to make a living, I'd definitely get out of town. I'd get a house site at least three hours but not more than six out of Bangkok (3am traffic conditions), and ideally within two of Pattaya, somewhere well up above sea level and ideally overlooking protected national park forests.

And don't get married. . .

[lungmi]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

Well my predictions are coming true, sadly.

Thaksin, the thin end of the globalist wedge. By agreement he'll move aside and become a "commerce facilitator", as ASEAN breaks down the Thai borders. Death to Thailand from within and without.

http://www.cfr.org/t...nd_thai_-070511

I read the first few paragraphs and stopped as it's obvious to me that author shares the same opinion as most of the anti-Reds on this forum. In any case, this article is merely an opinion and not exactly gospel, is it?

Everyone has the right to be uninformed but don't blame the bad luck coming back.

Edited July 12, 2011 by lungmi

[Mosha]

I live in the south, in the sticks. Most people have a few Rai they grow rubber or palm oil. They aren't the elite. They just hate the guy in Dubai, and they are IMHO nice folks. I wouldn't fancy his chances though if he called in around here unaccompanied. Thankfully we haven't a gun. I've seen the look in my wife's eyes when his name crops up.

[rubl]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

Well my predictions are coming true, sadly.

Thaksin, the thin end of the globalist wedge. By agreement he'll move aside and become a "commerce facilitator", as ASEAN breaks down the Thai borders. Death to Thailand from within and without.

http://www.cfr.org/t...nd_thai_-070511

I read the first few paragraphs and stopped as it's obvious to me that author shares the same opinion as most of the anti-Reds on this forum. In any case, this article is merely an opinion and not exactly gospel, is it?

This one more to your liking? The 69 comments on the article show NewMandela is a bit more 'liberal' in the comments it accepts. A warning, some articles would not be tolerated here and can't be linked as they are clearly LM related.

"National lunacy

July 8th, 2011 by Andrew Walker"

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2011/07/08/national-lunacy/

[lungmi]

I live in the south, in the sticks. Most people have a few Rai they grow rubber or palm oil. They aren't the elite. They just hate the guy in Dubai, and they are IMHO nice folks. I wouldn't fancy his chances though if he called in around here unaccompanied. Thankfully we haven't a gun. I've seen the look in my wife's eyes when his name crops up.

In my area we have the elite. Skilled workers (Lybia, Katar, Algeria, etc.), small English, now they are farmers.. Democrat stronghold all the years with health stations, kindergarden and nursery , garbage collection and recycling in a western style.

Hilltribe People, poor and proud. Thaksin? Fart away.

Agricole cooperation, rice mill included, school for biofarming. Not all Thai people are stupid. The other ones only have to learn, to stop to believe Santa Claus.

[Bkkorupcountry]

More voted for him than for the other parties. They have the right to do so, on the basis of one man/woman, one vote.

The latest proportional-vote result I saw, which was Wikipedia a few days ago, said that PTP got 48.91% of the (75% turnout) vote. So I'm afraid that your statement "more voted for him" is possibly incorrect ?

I think my statement is correct. No other party got more than 48.91%, did they?

Strictly speaking, if 48.91% voted for PT, 51.09% didn't vote for them like in voted for others, did a no-vote, or invalidated their ballot somehow

(PS sorry, I studied mathematics for a while)

Obviously my communication skills are not too good so if I may, I would like to rephrase.

More voters voted for PT (him) than for any other party

or

PT received the most votes of all the parties contesting in the elections

Better?

ps: I didn't study mathematics

[Bkkorupcountry]

As to the question your username asks, I think if you ever take the time to learn anything about provincial politics your answer will come easy.

My decision on resettlement will not be influenced by politics but by the attitudes of the people living there. If not for the fact that a lot of the doomsday posters on this forum do actually live upcountry, my answer would have come a lot easier.

Then FWIW, I can tell you the vast majority - vast - of Thais living here are warm, caring, and generous people. Individually, they are interesting, and interested in more than just making a baht. It's really a joy to walk down the street and be stopped by strangers just wanting to chat a bit. Having learned a fair bit of the culture, I find it very easy to get along with almost anyone. I really can recommend living in Issan.

Just my opinion, of course. But I'd never move to BKK after living here.

I know, which is why I have decided to live here instead of the UK or Hong Kong or Australia or Malaysia or Singapore, all of which I have right of abode. I am already building a house up country for the extended family, one reason being that as I have a little wealth, I am happy to share it with people that I care about.

However, some of the posts I have read on this forum have been downright biased, prejudiced and condescending especially to the Thai people. Does living in Thailand for 20 years do that to the expats?

[jdinasia]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

Well my predictions are coming true, sadly.

Thaksin, the thin end of the globalist wedge. By agreement he'll move aside and become a "commerce facilitator", as ASEAN breaks down the Thai borders. Death to Thailand from within and without.

http://www.cfr.org/t...nd_thai_-070511

I read the first few paragraphs and stopped as it's obvious to me that author shares the same opinion as most of the anti-Reds on this forum. In any case, this article is merely an opinion and not exactly gospel, is it?

You are right .. it is an Op-Ed piece ... published by .....

http://www.cfr.org/about/

and originally published in the Financial Times http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/10772e7a-a737-11e0-b6d4-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F10772e7a-a737-11e0-b6d4-00144feabdc0.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cfr.org%2Fthailand%2Fthaksins-dreams-can-end-thai-democracy%2Fp25423%3Fcid%3Drss-democracyandhumanrights-thaksin%2526%25238217%253Bs_dreams_can_end_thai_-070511#axzz1RH990Enz (subscription only)

It's not gospel at all ... it is well thought out and explains a lot. That you dismissed it after a few paragraphs tells more about you than it does about the piece itself. From the piece itself ....

In the longer run, both Thailand's urban middle classes and its poor must accept the need for painful change. The poor, and their allies in Ms Yingluck's party, must accept that they have to protect private property rights and the rule of law and also that they must not let Mr Thaksin back into Thailand, no matter how much they love him.

......

. Hardest of all, Mr Thaksin must accept that he really does have to retire, if he wants his country to flourish and his positive legacies – including political empowerment and poverty reduction – to stand the test of time. But if he and his sister insist on a comeback, he may yet have to take responsibility for the final fiery death of a once-promising democratic nation.

I redacted one questionable sentence that might violate the forum rules.

Edited July 12, 2011 by jdinasia

[rubl]

I think my statement is correct. No other party got more than 48.91%, did they?

Strictly speaking, if 48.91% voted for PT, 51.09% didn't vote for them like in voted for others, did a no-vote, or invalidated their ballot somehow

(PS sorry, I studied mathematics for a while)

Obviously my communication skills are not too good so if I may, I would like to rephrase.

More voters voted for PT (him) than for any other party

or

PT received the most votes of all the parties contesting in the elections

Better?

ps: I didn't study mathematics

Personally I'd say 'more voters voted for PT (him) ...'. Keep in mind the Pheu Thai party list started with Ms. Yingluck and had a few other females on it

[lannarebirth]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

Well my predictions are coming true, sadly.

Thaksin, the thin end of the globalist wedge. By agreement he'll move aside and become a "commerce facilitator", as ASEAN breaks down the Thai borders. Death to Thailand from within and without.

http://www.cfr.org/t...nd_thai_-070511

I read the first few paragraphs and stopped as it's obvious to me that author shares the same opinion as most of the anti-Reds on this forum. In any case, this article is merely an opinion and not exactly gospel, is it?

It is a book by a collection of authors, most of whom are recognized as experts on Thailand. I'm not sure any historical writing should be treated as gospel (nor should the gospel be) but I find value in works created in good faith by persons without an obvious agenda.

BTW; The author doesn't share any of the opinions of the anti or pro reds on here, at least in the book, as far as I can tell. You must be a prescient and discerning man to have groked that in a mere couple of paragraphs. Education isn't for everyone.

Sorry about that. I don't make posts with links often and I thought you were referring to the book I linked to. Sure, this last one is an op-ed piece, but it's still worth reading. Again, sorry for my confusion.

[473geo]

I don't believe Thaksin will return to frontline politics.......so where does that leave all your pontificating?

[LingLek]

Quote from the Nation piece:

:..The red-shirt activities evolved from an anti-coup sentiment before morphing into a mass movement crusading against perceived injustice, including that inflicted on Thaksin in the Bt46-billion asset seizure case.

..." This is rubbish. The anti-coup sentiment, injustice* etc is spin added by thaksin and even later by amsterdam.

* However, broadly there is s lack of equal application of the law, and nor forgetting that the red shirts have tried to be vigilante groups and at one stage tried to take over law and order (their style) in Chiang Mai. They are just as much involved in disrespect for justive and the judicial process as anybody else, but then of course we have their war cry of 'no double standards' - all added by the master manipulator and his amsterdam sidekick.

Nation needs to get better journalists who are insightful and get it right.

Ought to look to you then, oughtn't they.

[Bkkorupcountry]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

Well my predictions are coming true, sadly.

Thaksin, the thin end of the globalist wedge. By agreement he'll move aside and become a "commerce facilitator", as ASEAN breaks down the Thai borders. Death to Thailand from within and without.

http://www.cfr.org/t...nd_thai_-070511

I read the first few paragraphs and stopped as it's obvious to me that author shares the same opinion as most of the anti-Reds on this forum. In any case, this article is merely an opinion and not exactly gospel, is it?

It is a book by a collection of authors, most of whom are recognized as experts on Thailand. I'm not sure any historical writing should be treated as gospel (nor should the gospel be) but I find value in works created in good faith by persons without an obvious agenda.

BTW; The author doesn't share any of the opinions of the anti or pro reds on here, at least in the book, as far as I can tell. You must be a prescient and discerning man to have groked that in a mere couple of paragraphs. Education isn't for everyone.

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same article / book?

Taken from the article, opening sentence : Only a decade ago, Thailand was one of Asia's strongest democracies

Isn't this already an oxymoron? Democracies in Asia?

Same para : Now, with the election of the Puea Thai party, led by Yingluck Shinawatra, sister of exiled former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, Thailand risks losing a last chance to put its wobbly democracy back on track

If this is not biased and prejudiced writing, then I don't know what is

Next : Thailand's democratic fall is relatively recent

18 coups in what, 70 years?

Followed by : [Recent] Growing divides between the middle and upper classes and the poor, however, gradually polarised Thai society, leading to turmoil, and a bloody crackdown in Bangkok last year that killed at least 90 people.

I have been coming to Thailand since the 80's and as far as I can recall, there has ALWAYS been a great divide btw the middle and upper classes and the poor

This next statement really takes the cake : The result saw a familiar pattern from angry middle class revolts from Venezuela to the Philippines, in which these groups disdained elections and fought back in the streets,toppling Mr Thaksin in a coup in 2006

So there were street demonstrations, marches etc etc resulting in Thaksin's government being toppled in 2006?

This is when I couldn't be bothered to continue reading.

[lannarebirth]

I don't believe Thaksin will return to frontline politics.......so where does that leave all your pontificating?

Your post follows mine so I'm assuming you are addressing me? IMO Thaksin will not return to "frontline" politics either. It is the sweetest of all circumstances for someone like him. he gets to direct policy but still remain outside where he can frontrun and profit from it. The only problem is, his personality traits shown heretofore would make it hard for him not to be seen as "running the show".

[lannarebirth]

[so there were street demonstrations, marches etc etc resulting in Thaksin's government being toppled in 2006?

This is when I couldn't be bothered to continue reading.

No there weren't. Thaksin's government was removed because he was not the legitimate leader at that time. There was none. There was a power vacuum that he assumed, but not legitimately.

[Bkkorupcountry]

[so there were street demonstrations, marches etc etc resulting in Thaksin's government being toppled in 2006?

This is when I couldn't be bothered to continue reading.

No there weren't. Thaksin's government was removed because he was not the legitimate leader at that time. There was none. There was a power vacuum that he assumed, but not legitimately.

Exactly. But that's not the picture the author was trying to paint so I call into question his objectivity and balanced writing reporting style.

[anterian]

If the supposedly educated and intelligent members of this forum cannot cease their bitching about the election results what chance do the poorly educated majority of Thais have to reconcile. It seems the mutual hatred which has slowly become entrenched in the Thai psyche, the hatred between the rural and poor and the Bangkok affluent and the South, has been taken onboard by the farangs on this forum.

The PT are not yet in power yet many members are already rejoicing over their perceived future failures and demise. Cynicism is a useful tool if applied in moderation, some members are applying it by the bucketful.

Most (all) Thai parties have skeletons in their cupboards, they don't need to be constantly revealed ad nauseam, the best use of bones is to grind them up as fertiliser to help grow a better future. I think there are many people here who would rather prefer Thailand in ruins than truly reconciled, a "better dead than red" attitude. (I don't mean red in the Thai sense but in the sense of this saying).

[whybother]

The Taksin's have won and all you "wanna be yellow shirts" have lost and the "I don't give a shit's" like me, who don't have a vote anyway, have seen a fair and democratic election so that's it! Live with it!

Is that Thaksin's big red cross - "inappropriate question", "sue you for billions of baht if you criticise me" - type "live with it"?

What does winning an election have to do with not being able to accept criticism?

They won the election, now they have to live with the criticism.