Advice About Botched Medical Care At Bumrungrad Today

[plumeria]

The last time I was at Bumrungrad a number of years ago, I ran into the owner (co-owner of the family biz?) at that time. We' both been on the same board of directors for period of time so were chatting a bit while waiting for our doctors.

She was there for treatment. When it came time for HER to get her injections, she pulled out her own equipment, hypodermic needles, etc, from her purse for the hospital staff to use.

I never went back again.

Bumrungrad is world-class at marketing, They were first to market. They hire brilliant administrators. They spend a fortune on interior decorating. The place is slick. It's near the expat ghetto. They speak English and other languages. But that does not mean they have exceptional quality medical care.

It's unfortunate that local and convenient are often the parameters people everywhere use when choosing their health care.

Quality of results and good value for money would be much more sensible measurements.

I've lived here most of my life.

I've used all the farang-oriented hospitals mentioned on all these forums, with few exceptions. But not any longer.

You probably could not believe how many bad experiences I, or members of my family, have had at those places, including killing one of my daughters and almost killing my wife and trying to force me to have surgery I had already declined (none of the same places).

I find Thai community hospitals (private) provide as good or better care than the ones trying so hard to pull in expats. Many are also JCI accredited, HA accredited, ISO certified. They are clean, friendly, modern, the doctors speak English and at least a few of the key staff members do also. They have good interior decoration, convenient parking, golf carts ferrying patients from their cars to the appropriate building in the complex and back, and the lifts also tell you what floor it is in English.

Because they are competing for the THAI market, they must be competitive in service and quality or locals will just go down the street to the other nice hospital. That mechanism keeps things at a fairly high standard. It's the best care I've ever gotten anywhere.

Plus they are much more restrained about racist pricing.

I assume most expats know they are paying approximately double what Thai people are paying for the same health care at places like Bumrungrad (and almost any other hospital expats go to).

Generally, I find private Thai community hospitals treat and charge me approximately the same as everyone else (which are all Thais).

Yeah, SOMETIMES I might get charged a bit more but it's not substantial and they don't have two price lists behind the counter: one for Thais and one for non-Thais.

A private hospital in eastern Bangkok has just become the first Thai hospital EVER to make a full, public disclosure in ENGLISH of all POSSIBLE costs related to one department's service (it's a start) so expats can know without going there that IF this is needed THEN that cost will be incurred.

Instead of answering "It depends" when you ask "how much" they proactively give you the info needed to figure out if you can afford it.

Of course "it depends" on the doctor's diagnosis and the particulars of your case but at least they are trying to be transparent, straightforward and setting a new standard.

I like it.

It's something I've never seen in Thailand before or any hospital anywhere else in the world.

[plumeria]

An excerpt from the INFORMED CONSENT FORM of the private community hospital in eastern Bangkok (bold by me):

"In the event of problems or complications detrimental to our health, which are not due to acts of negligence on the part of the doctor, following ... treatment under the established standard protocol, we ... will not claim any damages."

That seems quite reasonable and does not exempt them from malpractice.

I have to say that cheeryble has amazing understanding and insight into the US healthcare system. Wow!

[czhteck]

plumeria,

Can you tell us the name of the hospital you refer to above. It is good to get a reference's to a good hospital Bangkok that does not charge a arm and leg.

Do they have a Web Site?

If you do not want to give a name here could you please send me a pm

[bunnaag]

I think many people would like to know the name.

[plumeria]

Hi czhteck,

Yeah, the racist pricing is pretty obscene and the higher prices are not justified.

For the past 5-6 years we have used two hospitals in eastern Bangkok because of easy access by Ekamai-Ramindra Expressway or the Outer Ring Road Highway 9.

For skin care or dental care we use Paolo Memorial Nawamin. Their English is weak, even the doctors, but the level of expertise is quite satisfactory.

The specialist doctor currently doing my molar root canal has about 30-40 years experience. It's my first root canal. It was no joy but the next day no pain and no swelling and today I feel great.

Full cost for: 1) dental diagnotics (X-ray of the problem tooth); 2) periodontal scaling and polishing by the HEAD of the department (trained in Germany) followed (after a 20-minute wait for the specialist with whom I had NO appointment) by 3) root canal therapy, with 4) outpatient nursing charge, 5) an item called "medical packages" and 6) outpatient hospital service charge added was a total of Baht 3660 or under US$125. It's what any Thai would have paid.

For OBGY, pediatrics or eye care we use Synphaet which is a stone's throw away from Nawamin on Ramindra KM 8.5, not far from Fashion Island Shopping Center.

We did encounter one young idiot doctor in Synphaet emergency who had the four-decade old Thai attitude of "doctors are God and patients are morons".

But the final result of my youngest daughter's treatment was very satisfactory.

PLUS Synphaet (JCI-accredited and unlike Bumrungrad also ISO-certified) offers and invites every patient to complain directly line to the CEO.

I took them up on the invitation and gave them my mind about the idiot doctor who didn't need facts and information on which to diagnose a patient.

But otherwise, the accounting department is honest, has no policy of hidden costs like Piyavate and other hospitals in that area, and the hospital is nice on the eyes.

What is truly radical and revolutionary and a historical first is their SMART CENTER (Synphaet Medical Assisted Reproductive Technology) publishing prices of all related services. For a 100% Thai hospital for Thai people I find that absolutely AMAZING.

It varies, but on most Google data centers like Google inter or USA (not Google Thai) their infertility clinic is currently #1 or #2 or #3 for related things like Thailand IVF or PGD Thailand cost or in vitro fertilization Thailand or reproductive doctor thailand or anything along those lines. I don't use Bing or Yahoo much so I don't know about those.

They've got a web site but it's aimed at Thais with some token English added. But the CEO agreed to accept foreigners and "treat them just like everybody else" and all the details have been reported in English by an 'observe and report' watchdog.

It's easy to find the English info on that stuff by Googling anything like Synphaet Hospital Medical Complex or Synphaet Hospital or Synphaet Hospital Bangkok or even just Synphaet IVF or SMART Center Bangkok.

Paolo may also have a web site but I never checked. These hospitals tend to rely heavily on traditional media, not the Internet.

[plumeria]

My third son is in construction in Ohio and is frequently injured. But US health care is so prohibitively expensive that he just goes without and spends his money on his daughter instead.

He's a pretty huge guy. No pussy.

He came to Thailand on a holiday. While in Phuket he went down while riding a big rented chopper and messed up his ankle badly.

I don't know what kind of medical care he got there but when he finally reached Bangkok it was looking really nasty.

We took him to Synphaet for emergency treatment. While they were taking care of that problem, the doc on duty, who was actually a professor of medicine somewhere, could tell he was in pain so severe the huge guy was close to crying -- and it wasn't his injured ankle.

The doc found out that he had chest pain so severe he could barely work.

The doc sent him for an X-ray and found out he had dislocated a rib connection to the sternum after a fall carrying heavy roofing material up a ladder.

They patched up his ankle, patched up his chest, gave him a pep talk about how much better his sex life would be if he gave up smoking Marlboro, loaded him up with meds and sent him back to the USA.

Total cost? About US$100.

[plumeria]

Forgot to mention that the last package of pre-natal, hospital stay, CAESAREAN delivery, nursing care and peri-natal care at Synphaet cost about Baht 35,000. It was awhile ago so I cannot remember the exact cost and the amount is out of date.

Thai friends of ours recently had a baby there under one of the hospital's packages. However, late in the pregnancy, the periodic testing of mother and baby revealed they had been exposed to measles.

This introduced new and special risks that put them outside the scope of the package. It required some special treatment and a selected delivery date instead of one determined by the baby.

Mother and baby are perfectly healthy and everybody is happy with their first son and total cost of the special, emergency, non-package CAESAREAN was Baht 65,000.

Not a small amount for a young Thai couple starting a family but not bad for a JCI-accredited, HA accredited, ISO certified hospital and an emergency situation -- only about US$2200.

One of my daughters required extended hospitalization after contracting hemorrhagic fever. She didn't like the IV drip and didn't like having stay to away from home but the private room was nice, one of us could always stay there with her, care was good, result was great and it didn't break the bank. It cost a reasonable amount but it was not enough that I can still remember the amount.

Anybody who can stand being treated "just like all the Thai patients" will probably find Synphaet Hospital satifactory. Anybody who thinks they deserve to be treated special because of their passport nationality or skin color can go to the hospitals who offer that service at 100-120% of Thai prices for the same health care -- and NOT as good in our personal experience of using all the major hospitals in the farang parts of Bangkok over the past 40 years, both private AND government hospitals. Prosperity, safety and good health to all ThaiVisa Members!

Edited August 13, 2011 by plumeria

[plumeria]

Dear Sheryl,

I found it interesting that contrary to the norm you mention here, the CEO at Synphaet Hospital (think he is also the CEO of Ram Hospital) is God at those hospitals.

His hordes of staff are all directly responsible to him and when he says jump they all shout "HOW HIGH?"

Even questions to specialists doctors about non-medical issues are answered: "Up to the Boss."

NOBODY makes a decision there about ANYTHING without running it by "The Boss".

The absolute dictatorship at Synphaet rubs me the wrong way sometimes but the fruit is good so I guess the tree is good.

Perhaps Synphaet is an anomaly and the only place where Thai doctors do not enjoy any autonomy. Everywhere else in Thailand they are independent contractors just like you said.

In all the private hospitals here, doctors enjoy an enormous degree of autonomy....there is little or no oversight by the hospital on their practice. (This is also the case in many other countries). Nursing care is supervised, but the doctors are more like independent contractors who use the hospital's facilities.

There are many excellent doctors at Bumrungrad, just as there are in many other hospitals here. But there are also less competent ones, and as I often say, there is no such thing as a hospital where all the doctors are good.

There is more in the way of oversight in government teaching hospitals, because more senior physicians supervise the work of interns and residents. This has its own pluses and minuses, of course.

[plumeria]

PS: Believe me Sheryl, you do NOT want eight interns and residents working on you at 3 am in a government hospital because they are NOT being supervised.

After EIGHT bags of the wrong type of blood, my convulsing and dying wife had to be the the one to say: "IIIIII DDDDDOOONNN'T THINK IIIIIIITTTTSSS THE RRRRRIGHT TTTTTYPE OF BBBBBLLLLLOODDDDDDDDDD!"

Next day at the GOVERNMENT MEDICAL UNIVERSITY TEACHING hospital they sent people around to badger my wife (A THAI), saying "It's all YOUR fault for having so many kids!" (It was our fourth.)

The result: our baby daughter was killed and my wife's liver was toast and she had been reduced to a psychological wreck with a total mental meltdown as a result of the psychiatric war they waged on her.

The responsible doctor was "transferred upcountry".

All the medical records "disappeared".

That was Thais treating Thais.

If you don't mind the wait, Sirirat Hospital will probably give you good care. Chula would also be a reasonably good choice. But that's it, in my opinion and experience.

The good news is that from that point in time we started trying to change the situation here and it has taken quite awhile but it is no longer so easy for bad doctors to get away with criminal malpractice and the situation is much improved as well as the level of care.

[fullwhenempty]

plumeria

Thanks for your contributions. I sympathize with your bad experiences. I have had similar experiences which have made me rather cynical about trusting any Doctor. Even the sincere ones aren't without risk because they are often not allowed to deviate from standard treatments, or fear the professional consequences of doing so. Cancer springs to mind.

My mother died in hospital after 2 years of toxic drugs and mutilating surgeries. Even though we asked, they said there was no alternative. We learned afterwards, there was. Her illness didn't kill her. The drugs did. My wife lost a child through a 'D&C'. Given, despite her protestations, that she knew she was pregnant. The 'experts' said she wasn't. A grandmother who died of hospital-borne infection who begged us not to send her to the hospital because she knew she wouldn't come out again. She didn't. A sister on lifetime pig hormones, enriching the industry but doing nothing to address the underlying cause. A boss who died during chemo. They told him that he had to start the treatment the very next day after diagnosis, giving him no time to organize his thinking or get used to the shock. Then there was the cousin on fluoride-based, zombie-causing psychiatric drugs for years, who was suicidal when he tried to come off them, and who says they damaged him, even after 10 years of stopping. I have many similar stories from friends, whose relatives have suffered harm and death under the care of modern medicine. Drugs ease one problem, only to cause two others.

In Thailand, it's naive to expect the best treatment in a hospital that is private, for-profit. You are going to be recommended for unnecessary expensive surgery and come out with a shopping trolley full of unnecessary, over-priced drugs. No need to argue this. I've also been here long enough to see it's the norm.

Last time I was in a private hospital here McDonald's was in the foyer and I was given Pepsi with my meals. I was astonished. If the operation doesn't polish you off the food will. These people are now seriously peddling the idea that nutrition doesn't matter, except where it allows them to rustle up more business due to deficiency diseases! What on earth are they teaching them in medical school?

I have a Doctor friend who has tried to work with the Thai health providers to introduce a new testing procedure. It doesn't matter who he talks to, the question is always the same.. "How much money will it make?"

Until money is removed from decision-making and Doctors drive the same cars as the rest of us, the best approach is to adjust your lifestyle so you never have to enter a hospital at all.

[plumeria]

Amem! 100% exactly right. Very sorry to hear you and your friends and loved ones have also suffered so much.

The last time he was in Bangkok, the late Professor Sava V Perovic MD PhD, Professor of Urology and Surgery at Belgrade School of Medicine (who has been given the same national scientific recognition as Nicola Tesla) told me that in his 40-year career, "the worst things he has even seen happen to people were done to them by other doctors." So there is your inside, attributed confirmation.

The really cheap herabl cancer cure of Dr Sommai in Singburi has an 80% success rate.

Some private hospitals in Bangkok convert the formulation into injections and jack up the price 10X.

Yes, our only hope is eat right, sleep right, work right and live right and do everything we possibly can to avoid going to the center of every infectious disease in the area -- a hospital. If you are not sick going in, you very well may be when you come out.

No US medical school teaches a course on nutrition as part of the curriculum. Some teach a class on it but that's about it.

Hope you stay in very good health a very long time! You've got the best tactic!

plumeria

Thanks for your contributions. I sympathize with your bad experiences. I have had similar experiences which have made me rather cynical about trusting any Doctor. Even the sincere ones aren't without risk because they are often not allowed to deviate from standard treatments, or fear the professional consequences of doing so. Cancer springs to mind.

My mother died in hospital after 2 years of toxic drugs and mutilating surgeries. Even though we asked, they said there was no alternative. We learned afterwards, there was. Her illness didn't kill her. The drugs did. My wife lost a child through a 'D&C'. Given, despite her protestations, that she knew she was pregnant. The 'experts' said she wasn't. A grandmother who died of hospital-borne infection who begged us not to send her to the hospital because she knew she wouldn't come out again. She didn't. A sister on lifetime pig hormones, enriching the industry but doing nothing to address the underlying cause. A boss who died during chemo. They told him that he had to start the treatment the very next day after diagnosis, giving him no time to organize his thinking or get used to the shock. Then there was the cousin on fluoride-based, zombie-causing psychiatric drugs for years, who was suicidal when he tried to come off them, and who says they damaged him, even after 10 years of stopping. I have many similar stories from friends, whose relatives have suffered harm and death under the care of modern medicine. Drugs ease one problem, only to cause two others.

In Thailand, it's naive to expect the best treatment in a hospital that is private, for-profit. You are going to be recommended for unnecessary expensive surgery and come out with a shopping trolley full of unnecessary, over-priced drugs. No need to argue this. I've also been here long enough to see it's the norm.

Last time I was in a private hospital here McDonald's was in the foyer and I was given Pepsi with my meals. I was astonished. If the operation doesn't polish you off the food will. These people are now seriously peddling the idea that nutrition doesn't matter, except where it allows them to rustle up more business due to deficiency diseases! What on earth are they teaching them in medical school?

I have a Doctor friend who has tried to work with the Thai health providers to introduce a new testing procedure. It doesn't matter who he talks to, the question is always the same.. "How much money will it make?"

Until money is removed from decision-making and Doctors drive the same cars as the rest of us, the best approach is to adjust your lifestyle so you never have to enter a hospital at all.

Edited August 14, 2011 by plumeria

[Topprofile]

There used to be a website called Bumrungrad Death (which someone else has taken over and all old information is gone) about a father who lost his son in Bumrungrad and how they had altered records in the hospital after his sons death... It was on the news in both Bangkok and in the US but I don't think anything ever came out of it.. Basically he accused the hospital for killing his son and he had 2-3 other doctors examine the body who all agreed that Bumrungrad's "explanations" didn't add up..

Anyway, my son just came home after staying 3 nights at Bumrungrad.

Cost for the room alone was more than medicine and doctors' fees..

Price for a room is higher than most 5-star hotels in Bangkok.

Not long before international insurance companies will exclude Thailand from their list of countries where they provide cover (like many now do with HK, Singapore, Japan, Macau, Taiwan, China) unless you pay a higher premium..

Edited August 22, 2011 by Topprofile

[Sheryl]

... my son just came home after staying 3 nights at Bumrungrad.

Cost for the room alone was more than medicine and doctors' fees..

Price for a room is higher than most 5-star hotels in Bangkok.

Not long before international insurance companies will exclude Thailand from their list of countries where they provide cover (like many now do with HK, Singapore, Japan, Macau, Taiwan, China) unless you pay a higher premium..

While no room at Bumrungrad is inexpensive, if your son's cost more than the medical care did, he may have been in one of the higher end rooms. At all the hospitals, there are multiple types of rooms available which are far apart in pricing, and in all the hospitals I've dealt with -- even the non-profits -- the admissions people are pretty aggressive about trying to push the those at the top end of the price spectrum. Often without the patient really ever knowing there were less costly options.

It can take some pretty firm bargaining to get them to even show a listing of the different room options, and even then what they show may omit the lowest cost semi-private rooms. One has to be very firm and keep insisting you want the lowest cost semi-private room...unless of course it is worth it to you to pay substantially more for a private room...and even then, there is a range of prices for rooms the differences among which (1) if you are well enough to even notice, you probably don't need to be in a hospital and (2) are far from equal in value to the price difference.

Again, this is true of pretty well all the private hospitals, even the non-profit ones.

My sister recently had a colonoscopy at a not-for-profit hospital, in the course of which she had to spend about half a day there (for the prep and then recovering from the sedation). Admissions staff initially showed us only their most costly deluxe suite. We said no, we want a plain, inexpensive room. This produced scowls and pouts and finally a price list which still showed nothing below the level of a 2 bedded room full of perks. I knew for a fact this particular hospital had inexpensive ward beds. Again pushed and finally succeeded in getting a bed in about a 6 bed ward for 200 baht vs the 10,000 baht thing initially presented to us by the admissions officer..(As it happened, she had that ward all to herself! But for the few hours involved, we wouldn't have cared if it had been full.)

In the case of bumrungrad, their website shows room rates ranging from $43 (4 bedded room) to a whopping $702 ("royal suite"), not counting the nursing service charge and meals which are additional.

Some hospitals include the meals in the room fee, some do not; some charge additional for "foreign" meals and will put you down for them automatically (a true horrors since in addition to costing more, they are especially unappetizing, even by hospital food standards...)

[wpcoe]

For my two recent short-term stays at BNH Hospital in 8-hour recovery rooms, the cheapest room on offer was B4200.

The first time, my recovery period expired around midnight, and they actually let me stay the night for that rate.

The second time, when offered the room choices -- and again B4200 was the cheapest -- I asked about spending the night and was firmly told B4200 had an 8-hour limit. The cheapest option for an overnight stay was, I believe, B7200 (maybe B7500?) with the cheapest (Thai) food option. That's about US$250 per night. Yikes!

[Sheryl]

Looking at their website this seems to be so, making it about the pricest place around, room wise at least.

[plumeria]

... my son just came home after staying 3 nights at Bumrungrad.

Cost for the room alone was more than medicine and doctors' fees..

Price for a room is higher than most 5-star hotels in Bangkok.

Not long before international insurance companies will exclude Thailand from their list of countries where they provide cover (like many now do with HK, Singapore, Japan, Macau, Taiwan, China) unless you pay a higher premium..

While no room at Bumrungrad is inexpensive, if your son's cost more than the medical care did, he may have been in one of the higher end rooms. At all the hospitals, there are multiple types of rooms available which are far apart in pricing, and in all the hospitals I've dealt with -- even the non-profits -- the admissions people are pretty aggressive about trying to push the those at the top end of the price spectrum. Often without the patient really ever knowing there were less costly options.

It can take some pretty firm bargaining to get them to even show a listing of the different room options, and even then what they show may omit the lowest cost semi-private rooms. One has to be very firm and keep insisting you want the lowest cost semi-private room...unless of course it is worth it to you to pay substantially more for a private room...and even then, there is a range of prices for rooms the differences among which (1) if you are well enough to even notice, you probably don't need to be in a hospital and (2) are far from equal in value to the price difference.

Again, this is true of pretty well all the private hospitals, even the non-profit ones.

My sister recently had a colonoscopy at a not-for-profit hospital, in the course of which she had to spend about half a day there (for the prep and then recovering from the sedation). Admissions staff initially showed us only their most costly deluxe suite. We said no, we want a plain, inexpensive room. This produced scowls and pouts and finally a price list which still showed nothing below the level of a 2 bedded room full of perks. I knew for a fact this particular hospital had inexpensive ward beds. Again pushed and finally succeeded in getting a bed in about a 6 bed ward for 200 baht vs the 10,000 baht thing initially presented to us by the admissions officer..(As it happened, she had that ward all to herself! But for the few hours involved, we wouldn't have cared if it had been full.)

In the case of bumrungrad, their website shows room rates ranging from $43 (4 bedded room) to a whopping $702 ("royal suite"), not counting the nursing service charge and meals which are additional.

Some hospitals include the meals in the room fee, some do not; some charge additional for "foreign" meals and will put you down for them automatically (a true horrors since in addition to costing more, they are especially unappetizing, even by hospital food standards...)

I find a $43 room at Bumrungrad totally unbelievable.

What exactly is a "not-for-profit" hospital? That's a new one for me. I'm only aware of government and private and private meaning "for profit". I don't mind profit, but sometimes it's obscene profit on the misfortune of others.

Sorry to hear BNH is no better than when it was Bangkok Nursing Home. Last time I stayed there it was a nightmare and they literally took me for every Baht I had -- including that month's rent on the house.

[plumeria]

UPDATE TO ALL MY PREVIOUS POSTS ON THE TOPIC: Synphaet Hospital has a new policy to be just like so many other hospitals in Bangkok and has firmly and with great gusto confirmed they will charge all foreigners and all THAIS married to foreigners 70% more than a Thai couple for IVF, PGD, ICSI or any other type of infertility treatment.

The only fairly good value for money in west Bangkok that I know about is Paolo Memorial Nawamin -- but they could also improve a few things.

Sorry to report there is no longer any clearly superior health care facility on this side of the city.

I think the blatant racist pricing policy at Synphaet is currently only applied to infertility treatments?? But it shows the mindset of the CEO who also runs RAM Hospital so it's not a good development. A step backward for Thai health care.

Just when I thought things were getting better ...

Edited September 2, 2011 by plumeria

[khun_j]

"My advice to anyone, is to stay away from this place and carefully consider the standards of these types of so-called International hospitals, which on the face of things show a smart and attractive facade, but in reality still lack proper standards"

Exactly this is the point - regardless to what hospital it is. But these things happen all over the world :/ Just be careful out there and think for yourself!

[Sheryl]

What exactly is a "not-for-profit" hospital? That's a new one for me. I'm only aware of government and private and private meaning "for profit".

A not-for-profit private hospital is exactly what the name implies: a non-governmental institution that does not seek to make a profit, although it does of course seek to make ends meet in terms of meeting its actual costs. But no profit to share holders and so forth, and may in varioius ways waive or subsidize c are for the poor. These are usually affiliated with either a church or charitable organization and enjoy tax exempt status. In Thailand, all the non-profits I am aware of are affiliated with Christian churches - mainly Catholic or Adventist, but they do not in any way proselytize or restrict whom they serve.

I don't know what country you are from but I would be surprised if there are not non-profit private hospitals in your home country as well, they are found worldwide.

[plumeria]

What exactly is a "not-for-profit" hospital? That's a new one for me. I'm only aware of government and private and private meaning "for profit".

A not-for-profit private hospital is exactly what the name implies: a non-governmental institution that does not seek to make a profit, although it does of course seek to make ends meet in terms of meeting its actual costs. But no profit to share holders and so forth, and may in varioius ways waive or subsidize c are for the poor. These are usually affiliated with either a church or charitable organization and enjoy tax exempt status. In Thailand, all the non-profits I am aware of are affiliated with Christian churches - mainly Catholic or Adventist, but they do not in any way proselytize or restrict whom they serve.

I don't know what country you are from but I would be surprised if there are not non-profit private hospitals in your home country as well, they are found worldwide.

Thanks for the explanation. It's nice to learn something new every day. I think I've used "Christian" hospitals if 'Bangkok Christian' or 'Mission' are ones and I think I've used 'Catholic' if St. Louis on Sathorn is one. But both charged plenty and I noticed no difference between their hospital and others that are for profit. Can you give me some examples? Do they provide the same quality of care as public and private? I'm not young and this is the first time I've heard of a 'not-for-profit' hospital. Theoretically, it sounds like a great concept. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

[Sheryl]

Bkk Christian, St Louis and the Adventist Mission Hosp are indeed all examples of non-profit hospitals (Camellian on Soi Thonglor is another) and their charges are considerably less than those of private for-profits. However, even their prices have risen like all prices in Thailand due to the double digit inflation and general economic growth. I find St. Louis to cost less than Bkk Christian in most instances.

While they do not seek to make a profit, in some cases these hospitals may subsidize care given for free or at a large subsidy to the poor by turning a profit on other services that target the middle/upper class, for example the cosmetic services in St Louis derm clinic are costly and obviously turn a profit, and I have the impression that some or possibly all of these places have begun to practice tiered pricing i.e. charging more to foreigners, less to Thais and then even less or nothing to poor Thais. These institutions see their primary mandate as serving needy Thais and they do provide numerous free services for example St. Louis's weekly free clinic and foundation that helops the poor pay for hospital services, Bkk Chrisitans' free HIV/STD clinic etc etc. In other words, any money the hospital makes from you as a foreign clinet gets channeled directly into servcies for the poor, it does nto go into stock holders pockets. And at less cost to you than the same thing would have cost at places like Bumrungrad, BNH, Bangkok hospital etc.

Aside from costing less (I find usually by between 1/3 to 1./2 if comparing lowest to highest end e.g. St Louis to Bumrungrad/BNH etc) another benefit to the non-profits is that the physicians are under less pressure from management to boost revenue and this is reflected in medical practices and the amount of time spent per patient, especially, in my experience, at St Louis.

If you find the costs of even the non-profits to be too much, then you should be looking at government hospitals or military/police hospitals. As a non-Thai you are not eligible for free care in these, but you are welcome to utilize them on a private pay basis and costs will be below even the nonprofit privates, although offset by more red tape, longer waits and of course fewer amenities. In addition to these factors a major drawback from my perspective is that it is often difficult or impossible to choose your doctor, although some of these places are starting to make that possible as a sort of quasi-private service, recognizing that there is a market for private pay low cost health care out there.

The quality of care at military hospitals in particular is usually quite good and they can be found throughout the country. Many people, do not realize that non-military people can utilize them.

[plumeria]

Thanks. Useful info.

I think privately socialized medicine is a wonderful concept, meaning the doctor/hospital have flexible rates that are adjusted -- "from each according to his ability unto each according to his need".

Pure early Christian principle and practice.

But I will continue to fight prices based on skin color or passport color or the false concept that "white people are rich" and "Thai people are poor".

This is not a poor country although there are plenty of poor.

Sure, expatriates who come here to do business or make money or holiday for long periods have money. They don't need any protection from capitalism gone wild.

But international medical tourists come here for only one reason -- they have limited funds and need quality healthcare. Good value for money.

NOBODY comes to Thailand for medical treatment because it's the best in the world. (I think. Could be wrong.)

Formerly, Thailand was good value for money with a nice balance between quality and cost. But that has become an urban myth and hasn't been true for a long time.

Not all expatriates in Thailand are rich. Not all expatriates are in the upper class. Not all expatriates are retired on a good income. Not all expatriates are in tourist spots (which I think means they have picked their poison so don't need any help or protection regarding healthcare).

What I would love to know about are places the international medical tourists who come because they have limited funds could use to get good health care because they cannot afford it at home.

Where can someone get good care that is still less than it would cost at home even with airfare and accommodations added to the hospital costs?

Or does anyone know any doctors in any field that are truly better than most of the rest of the doctors in their field in other countries of the world?

My eldest child was born at St Louis. It wasn't cheap but it wasn't expensive. Lots of friends have gone to Mission. I've actually never heard a negative report about that place and their professionals.

But I think the most valuable point you made and something I had forgot is the excellent health care available from the MILITARY HOSPITALS!

I forgot.

And you are correct that they should not be classed with GOVERNMENT hospitals. We have never received a bad report from anyone about treatment or cost at a military hospital. And perhaps the biggest secret among the military hospitals is the VETERANS hospital on Viphawadi-Rangsit, especially for dental care.

I am not current on their policies toward foreigners and pricing but if I remember correctly they do NOT practice racial pricing or even socialized pricing. When I have received treatment there the price was the price. I was just another person needing attention. But specialists are there only at certain times and on certain days.

Thanks again for reminding me of that valuable resource. I guess that's why you are TITANIUM. You sure know Thailand.

[ZiggyTelling]

Lots of negativism here, but I have mostly only had good experiences here in my 8y living in Bangkok. MRI? Zero wait, 24K THB for full spine and head. Colonoscopy? Did it the same day, all problems cured immediately. After trying Bumungrad, Bangkok Hospital and a few others, I've settled on Samitivej. Do they charge a lot vs a local Thai hospital? Yes. Do I care? No. I get good service, 100% of the time, with almost no waiting periods, so far (and I've probably been there at least 100 times). My only complaint is too many drugs on exit that are useless, but not really that expensive, but now, I just go through each one recommended by the doctor, and reject them if I think they are unnecessary (like painkillers for example). If u want local prices, local language, in this 3rd world country, but with global standards and quality, I think that's a big ask. The 5-star ripoffs noted here are still 1/4th or so the cost of a Western hospital with 1/100th the wait time.

My only livid vile is for Rutnin Eye Clinic. A factory where appointments are meaningless (you get in the same queue with or without an appointment). You are ferried around to 6 stations or so like a sausage, each one seemingly aimed at some imaginary time schedule they need to meet. And at the end of it all, it is more expensive that the 5-star hospitals. And just to add insult to injury, my glasses, and the guy beside me, were made incorrectly, at a higher cost, and longer wait, than the local optical shop, and they were unable to tell me (or anyone else) what power the lens' actually were. That will be the last place I visit as long as I still have a pulse.

But Samitivej? Will likely go there this month for my cataract surgery and stay in a high-end room, with zero wait, high comfort, good service, and yes, inflated expat prices. But I eat my sense of justice on that because the alternatives are far worse, like in my native country, Canada.

[plumeria]

Lots of negativism here, but I have mostly only had good experiences here in my 8y living in Bangkok. MRI? Zero wait, 24K THB for full spine and head. Colonoscopy? Did it the same day, all problems cured immediately. After trying Bumungrad, Bangkok Hospital and a few others, I've settled on Samitivej. Do they charge a lot vs a local Thai hospital? Yes. Do I care? No. I get good service, 100% of the time, with almost no waiting periods, so far (and I've probably been there at least 100 times). My only complaint is too many drugs on exit that are useless, but not really that expensive, but now, I just go through each one recommended by the doctor, and reject them if I think they are unnecessary (like painkillers for example). If u want local prices, local language, in this 3rd world country, but with global standards and quality, I think that's a big ask. The 5-star ripoffs noted here are still 1/4th or so the cost of a Western hospital with 1/100th the wait time.

My only livid vile is for Rutnin Eye Clinic. A factory where appointments are meaningless (you get in the same queue with or without an appointment). You are ferried around to 6 stations or so like a sausage, each one seemingly aimed at some imaginary time schedule they need to meet. And at the end of it all, it is more expensive that the 5-star hospitals. And just to add insult to injury, my glasses, and the guy beside me, were made incorrectly, at a higher cost, and longer wait, than the local optical shop, and they were unable to tell me (or anyone else) what power the lens' actually were. That will be the last place I visit as long as I still have a pulse.

But Samitivej? Will likely go there this month for my cataract surgery and stay in a high-end room, with zero wait, high comfort, good service, and yes, inflated expat prices. But I eat my sense of justice on that because the alternatives are far worse, like in my native country, Canada.

Thanks for the heads-up about Rutnin.

Maybe some day I won't need to be concerned about how much something costs and whether it's good value for money. At present, I still cannot afford ANY price. I need a reasonable one.

Thailand is not a 3rd world country. And most private Thai hospitals have higher standards than in the USA. JCI (I for International) demands much higher standards from hospitals outside the USA than the Joint Commission (no "I" and not international) requires of hospitals within the USA which get accreditation even when they FAIL inspection for things such as nobody washed their hands and/or nobody checks incoming patients for drug allergies, current drug use to be aware of any negative interaction, and really basic stuff like that.

The USA may have a few places where standards are high but the average is not good at all.

Thai people get good hospitals at reasonable prices and the institution makes a very healthy profit on THOSE prices.

No need for them to double the price because my skin is white.

The truly funny thing is that with all the skin bleaching going on, many Thais in Bangkok are whiter than I am.

And many of them make more money that I do.