Refusal Notice and Appeal Overview

[brynpugh]

Hi its brynpugh, heres the refusal letter we got for the application of my wife's daughter

Edited July 13, 2011 by 7by7
Attachment removed; see my post below.

[kunash]

sorry to see your wife's daughter cannot come to the uk. You will appeal i guess? I hope you can answer all the points raised by the eco. I wish you luck. I have also applied for settlement for my wife (and her two children )

[bobrussell]

This may well have to go down the full appeal route. I see your wife's daughter is only six years old so it is quite appropriate for her to live with her mother rather than grandparents should that be her preference.

On technical and probably legal grounds this refusal may be correct but IMO inappropriate. It would be very unusual for a British court to prevent a young child living with his or her mother and would generally expect this to be the case.

You will need to get proper legal advice on this one. I would hope that any legal process in the UK would consider the child's interests as paramount.

Edited July 13, 2011 by bobrussell

[raven0099]

shocked !

A six year old thai child is supposed to understand that ?

You would think they would show a bit of consideration that the child lives with grandparents and not the father.

It may be worth contacting your member of parliment regarding this, its worth a try.

Goodluck hope you get it sorted

[Cuban]

Very interesting to see the content of the letter - it really acts as a guide what not to do in future cases.

The appeal should explain the reasons for each point they raise. Showing support and contact via phone/email etc would help?

Good luck with the appeal.

[7by7]

From the refusal notice:-

The child has lived with the grandmother since she was three months old.

The grandmother makes all the decisions involving the child.

The mother makes infrequent phone calls and has visited the child only once since moving to the UK in October 2008.

The father is around and takes an interest in the child's life.

If the above is true, then it is no wonder that the application was refused; it seems that your wife has failed to show that she has been exercising sole responsibility (see here).

For any appeal to succeed, your wife needs to show that the above points are not true and that she is solely responsible for the child's welfare and upbringing.

For the best way forward, I think you do need the advice of a professional. Hopefully Visa Plus and/or Thai Visa Express will respond.

Remember that any notice of appeal needs to be submitted within 28 days of the refusal.

Finally, this is an open forum that anyone can read, not just members. It is therefore not wise to post the identity of a child.

When I suggested in the other topic that you post the refusal notice I did say that you should remove any names and other identifying features; unfortunately you haven't.

I can't edit the attachment, so have removed it. Please delete her name and the post reference and then post it again.

[VisasPlus]

I briefly saw the refusal notice yesterday, but it didn't look complete. Is there a second page ? If so, there may be other refusal reasons to consider too. From what I saw it looks like the ECO has refused the application mainly ( or solely ) on the grounds that there are no compelling compassionate circumstances, etc, not on sole responsibility. Is that correct ? If so, then I wonder how your application was worded ?

I agree with 7x7. The refusal looks fairly sound, and will be difficult to overturn. You will have to show evidence that your wife has had sole responsibility for the child for the whole time that your wife has been away. Please read the link on sole responsibility that 7x7 has provided.

You only have 28 days to appeal this decision. Getting everything together in that time will be a problem for you, and you do really need someone to represent you in the UK at the appeal. I would certainly look for an OISC Level 3 immigration advisor in the UK to assist you. It will be expensive. He may advise you to submit the appeal now, and try to get documents together which can be presented at the appeal. Although " new " evidence cannot be presented, I think you will be able to present evidence about the points that caused the ECO to refuse.

[7by7]

I briefly saw the refusal notice yesterday, but it didn't look complete. Is there a second page ? If so, there may be other refusal reasons to consider too. From what I saw it looks like the ECO has refused the application mainly ( or solely ) on the grounds that there are no compelling compassionate circumstances, etc, not on sole responsibility. Is that correct ? If so, then I wonder how your application was worded ?

Tony, from your experience, could it be that with child applications the ECO first looks for compassionate grounds and if they are there grants the visa, and if not then looks for other reasons to grant, such as sole responsibility? Or maybe this is just standard wording on a child refusal?

I agree that seeing the second page would help.

[VisasPlus]

I briefly saw the refusal notice yesterday, but it didn't look complete. Is there a second page ? If so, there may be other refusal reasons to consider too. From what I saw it looks like the ECO has refused the application mainly ( or solely ) on the grounds that there are no compelling compassionate circumstances, etc, not on sole responsibility. Is that correct ? If so, then I wonder how your application was worded ?

Tony, from your experience, could it be that with child applications the ECO first looks for compassionate grounds and if they are there grants the visa, and if not then looks for other reasons to grant, such as sole responsibility? Or maybe this is just standard wording on a child refusal?

I agree that seeing the second page would help.

I have to be honest, even if it sounds self - serving, but we haven't had any refusals of child visas in the time I have been working here. Again, in all honesty, we haven't dealt with many. That said, from experience, applications were usually refused on sole responsibility, not compelling compassionate grounds. That's why I asked if it is correct that the refusal was on these grounds alone. Normally, again from experience, an ECO looks at one or the other, and would refuse on one ground alone. Again, I asked how the application was worded, trying to see if the mother claimed sole responsibility in the application. I really think that it will depend largely on what was included in the application itself, especially the supporting letter.

[harrry]

I have no knowledge of this but it appears the Biological father is British. If he legitimised the child cannot he claim UK citizenship for the child?

Sorry if this is clouding the waters.

[VisasPlus]

I have no knowledge of this but it appears the Biological father is British. If he legitimised the child cannot he claim UK citizenship for the child?

Sorry if this is clouding the waters.

How do you know that, harry ? OP says " my wife's daughter ", and the child's father seems to be Thai as he still takes an interest in the child's upbringing here in Thailand.

[harrry]

I have no knowledge of this but it appears the Biological father is British. If he legitimised the child cannot he claim UK citizenship for the child?

Sorry if this is clouding the waters.

How do you know that, harry ? OP says " my wife's daughter ", and the child's father seems to be Thai as he still takes an interest in the child's upbringing here in Thailand.

Sorry...I was relying on poor memory of what I thought I saw before it disappeared.

Hope things work out for him.

[brynpugh]

With reference to the comments about the points we got refused, the ECO who speaks fluent Thai seems to have misunderstood my mother in law who has lived in Laos and Isaan all her live so with this in mind it was hard for her to understand the position she was in. Her phrase of the father being in touch regular was actually about me(in the village im seen as the girl's father) as its been documented with the Embassy he has never seen his daughter. My wife has just returned from her village where she had been since February doing the passport and visa. We didnt take the daughter over as my wife was 4month pregnant and we only had a 1bedroom bungalow so wouldve failed on accommodation, and we both wanted the baby born in the UK as this is where we want to live, hopefully with my stepdaughter also once we had sold our properity and bought a house which would fuliful the criteria for a settlement visa. My job was also away to end as i worked offshore and the contract wasnt getting renewed so i would end up with a lower wage and not permanent so again we wouldve been refused on them grounds. all this was submitted but....

[harrry]

With reference to the comments about the points we got refused, the ECO who speaks fluent Thai seems to have misunderstood my mother in law who has lived in Laos and Isaan all her live so with this in mind it was hard for her to understand the position she was in. Her phrase of the father being in touch regular was actually about me(in the village im seen as the girl's father) as its been documented with the Embassy he has never seen his daughter. My wife has just returned from her village where she had been since February doing the passport and visa. We didnt take the daughter over as my wife was 4month pregnant and we only had a 1bedroom bungalow so wouldve failed on accommodation, and we both wanted the baby born in the UK as this is where we want to live, hopefully with my stepdaughter also once we had sold our properity and bought a house which would fuliful the criteria for a settlement visa. My job was also away to end as i worked offshore and the contract wasnt getting renewed so i would end up with a lower wage and not permanent so again we wouldve been refused on them grounds. all this was submitted but....

I think that is one problem with employing young graduates for interviews. THey may speak standard thai but are not fluent in regional idioms and dialects. I have had a similar problem with a phone call fronm the Australian embassy.

[VisasPlus]

With reference to the comments about the points we got refused, the ECO who speaks fluent Thai seems to have misunderstood my mother in law who has lived in Laos and Isaan all her live so with this in mind it was hard for her to understand the position she was in. Her phrase of the father being in touch regular was actually about me(in the village im seen as the girl's father) as its been documented with the Embassy he has never seen his daughter. My wife has just returned from her village where she had been since February doing the passport and visa. We didnt take the daughter over as my wife was 4month pregnant and we only had a 1bedroom bungalow so wouldve failed on accommodation, and we both wanted the baby born in the UK as this is where we want to live, hopefully with my stepdaughter also once we had sold our properity and bought a house which would fuliful the criteria for a settlement visa. My job was also away to end as i worked offshore and the contract wasnt getting renewed so i would end up with a lower wage and not permanent so again we wouldve been refused on them grounds. all this was submitted but....

I don't think it would have been the ECO who called your mother in law. It would have been a locally engaged ( probably Thai ) member of staff. The ECO would have asked questions, and the interpreter ( the Thai speaker ) would have asked them to your mother in law. You need a copy of the transcript of the telephone call for your appeal. You should ( hopefully) be able to see any misunderstandings in the transcript. If what you say is correct, then this should be brought out fully in the grounds of appeal.

You have not posted the full refusal notice. Nor have you said if you are going to appeal. You have only limited time to do this.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

With reference to the comments about the points we got refused, the ECO who speaks fluent Thai seems to have misunderstood my mother in law who has lived in Laos and Isaan all her live so with this in mind it was hard for her to understand the position she was in. Her phrase of the father being in touch regular was actually about me(in the village im seen as the girl's father) as its been documented with the Embassy he has never seen his daughter. My wife has just returned from her village where she had been since February doing the passport and visa. We didnt take the daughter over as my wife was 4month pregnant and we only had a 1bedroom bungalow so wouldve failed on accommodation, and we both wanted the baby born in the UK as this is where we want to live, hopefully with my stepdaughter also once we had sold our properity and bought a house which would fuliful the criteria for a settlement visa. My job was also away to end as i worked offshore and the contract wasnt getting renewed so i would end up with a lower wage and not permanent so again we wouldve been refused on them grounds. all this was submitted but....

I think that is one problem with employing young graduates for interviews. THey may speak standard thai but are not fluent in regional idioms and dialects. I have had a similar problem with a phone call fronm the Australian embassy.

The ECO will have asked a Thai to make the call however I would certainly ask for the transcript of the conversation.

[kunash]

How is the appeal preparation going Brynpugh? Are you feeling confident?

I wish you all the best. Good luck

[brynpugh]

Very interesting to see the content of the letter - it really acts as a guide what not to do in future cases.

The appeal should explain the reasons for each point they raise. Showing support and contact via phone/email etc would help?

Good luck with the appeal.

Dont you think we put all this in the application?

[brynpugh]

How is the appeal preparation going Brynpugh? Are you feeling confident?

I wish you all the best. Good luck

Thank you and yes i hope the luck is with us. As confident as i was when we first submitted but look how that turned out, seems some already know the answer before we do as they all know word by word my application we put in on the 7th April

[somtampet]

My brother has had 2 refusals and spent plenty of money too.

In all honesty the uk will sink if it lets anybody else in and i believe that the government are stopping anybody if they can.

[VisasPlus]

How is the appeal preparation going Brynpugh? Are you feeling confident?

I wish you all the best. Good luck

Thank you and yes i hope the luck is with us. As confident as i was when we first submitted but look how that turned out, seems some already know the answer before we do as they all know word by word my application we put in on the 7th April

brynpugh, people here are trying to help you. You haven't answered any of the questions, such as, is there a second page to the refusal. Why haven't you re-posted the full refusal notice so we can see it ?

Have you appealed ? Have you asked for a transcript of the telephone call to the grandmother ?

[brynpugh]

Does anyone(who has gone through one) know what happens after a letter from the tribunal in the UK arrives at an address in Thailand. Does it mean they are still looking at the overview or has it been sent to the UK for the process of a court appeal?The letter just states that they will contact my in laws again around the 15th November which will take it up to 16wks since we appealed the original decision.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

It would help if you indicated which visa the applicant has been refused ?

[7by7]

It's settlement for a child.

To avoid further confusion, I'm merging this new topic with the OP's previous one on this refusal.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

It's settlement for a child.

To avoid further confusion, I'm merging this new topic with the OP's previous one on this refusal.

He started a new thread on the subject 7/7 that is why I asked.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Does anyone(who has gone through one) know what happens after a letter from the tribunal in the UK arrives at an address in Thailand. Does it mean they are still looking at the overview or has it been sent to the UK for the process of a court appeal?The letter just states that they will contact my in laws again around the 15th November which will take it up to 16wks since we appealed the original decision.

Again did you ask for the transcripts of the telephone conversation ?

[brynpugh]

Just an enquiry about the next stage of an appeal. We got refused on the overview and now have the long wait of the tribunal. My wife is seriously down and is wanting to go back to be with her daughter asap so the moral of this topic is to ask, we know itll be next year now before we get a date so IF we wanted to reapply, would it be sensible to do it or will we just keep on getting refused due to the last application as i dont want to apply if we just keep getting the same answer and wasting money.

[theoldgit]

Can I ask what country this is for?

[brynpugh]

Can I ask what country this is for?

For the UK

[7by7]

Topic title amended.

I assume by 'We got refused on the overview' that you mean you have submitted a notice of appeal and the Entry Clearance Manager at the embassy has reviewed the decision and upheld the refusal.

The next stage is that everything will be sent to the First-tier Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber) (FTTIAC) in the UK and a date set for the hearing. This can be a lengthy wait, I'm afraid.

See Appeals - visas and entry clearance and Appeals for more details.

There is nothing to stop you from submitting both an appeal and a new application; withdrawing one when/if the other is successful. However, if you do submit a new application unless you adequately deal with the reasons for the refusal of the first one, it will only be refused again.

BTW, you don't say what type of visa was applied for, and by whom. It sounds from your OP that it was settlement for your step-daughter; is this correct?

It may also help people advise you if you were to post the original refusal notice; removing names and any identifying info.

Edit.

Checking your posting history, I see you have already posted on this; it's your step-daughter's refusal. So, again, I've merged the topics so people wont have to search their memories to try and remember the history.

It will help people give you advice if you

• Post another copy of the refusal notice, this time removing identifying info as mentioned above.
• Answer the questions already asked.
• Keep everything in the one topic and not start a new one each time.

Edited October 1, 2011 by 7by7