Perception Of Thai Gold

[mjnaus]

The point is that the amount of Gold being traded by these "funds" is a high multiple of the amount of physical Gold that has ever been mined - ergo if (when?) the Economy implodes there will simply not be enough actual Gold in existence to redeem - at the then current Market price for physical Gold - all the funds invested.

It's just paper, like Dollar Bills or any other currency - backed by nothing but the reputation of the Issuer.

Do you have any solid proof for making these statements? Do you have looked in detail at every gold fund out there and compared their backing to the total amount of physical gold in circulation?

[tracy3eyes]

Why do you say that I will have already lost the case? The guy who bought the gold first said he had taken it to a gold shop and then he said he had taken it to 2 Asian gold shops. I think he is being less than truthful.

Anyway I advised him that he should take it to a professional gold assayer and gave him a local list. I als told him that Paypal would expect to see forrmal test results not here say. I also said that both he and I should be able to liaise with the assayer to ensure that what was being tested was what was sent etc. Informaed paypal of this already.

I checked the gold by going back to the same shop I have used many times and asked if they would buy back at the much higher price now and no problem so that confirmed to me that it must be for real.

See image

But I did sell one of the bars to someone in California and then a few days after they received it they said that it was fake and that they had been to a gold shop that day. I know its not fake and I advised them to take it to a real gold expert, thai town in LA or alike becuase western gold shops are not used to dealing with Thai yellow gold, nor are they aware that its a better investment and 100% cash to value redeemable. Now I have a dilemma trying to convince the buyer that what they have is the real deal.

Not sure how best to proceed with this

Hope you didn't use Paypal, because you would have already lost the case.

Back 20 years ago i took a gold thai bracelet to a jewelery store to get an estimate of value, they also told me it was fake, but they didn't seem like it was a big deal.

Fast forward 7 years later i get the bracelet weighed and the bracelet was lighter than when i first had it, by 3.5 grams. That shop 7 years ago had the bracelet in the back for more than half an hour and i always wondered why it took so long, theres no doubt in my mind that they took some gold off and stretched it back into length.

In thailand there is a saying, "if you see a snake and an indian at the same time, hit the indian first."

[ExpatJ]

Patrick- i wouldnt dimiss paper funds as you say. I just bought Kbanks Gold Fund (listed as 'kasgold' on bloomberg)- it invests 80% in the largest gold ETF in the US and 20% in gold related stocks mining etc. The fund price is directly linked to the price of gold and the fund also pays out dividends 2-3 times per year which have averged 6%-10%!

The point is that the amount of Gold being traded by these "funds" is a high multiple of the amount of physical Gold that has ever been mined - ergo if (when?) the Economy implodes there will simply not be enough actual Gold in existence to redeem - at the then current Market price for physical Gold - all the funds invested.

It's just paper, like Dollar Bills or any other currency - backed by nothing but the reputation of the Issuer.

Patrick

This is largely an urban myth. Any reputable gold fund gets audited almost 24/7 as big institutional investors investigate and then buy in. Certainly the SPDR gold fund that KBANK is based on is in the top 10 gold holders in the world and the gold is held in HSBC london vaults. Also you have to ask yourself why you are investing in gold- if you are investing for profit then a gold fund that pays dividends is surely a better investment that physical gold bearing in mind the small chance of a global melt down. The latter is the other reason that many buy gold is as security in the event that the system collapses i.e. where paper money becomes worthless and most/all insitutions fail (though its also worth pointing out that if society collapses, physical gold will be worth less than tinned food goods, guns, fishing equipment, cigarettes and gas/petrol/oil etc etc).

For me, im only invested in gold to make a profit.

Edited July 17, 2011 by ExpatJ

[p_brownstone]

This is largely an urban myth. Any reputable gold fund gets audited almost 24/7 as big institutional investors investigate and then buy in. Certainly the SPDR gold fund that KBANK is based on is in the top 10 gold holders in the world and the gold is held in HSBC london vaults. Also you have to ask yourself why you are investing in gold- if you are investing for profit then a gold fund that pays dividends is surely a better investment that physical gold bearing in mind the small chance of a global melt down. The latter is the other reason that many buy gold is as security in the event that the system collapses i.e. where paper money becomes worthless and most/all insitutions fail (though its also worth pointing out that if society collapses, physical gold will be worth less than tinned food goods, guns, fishing equipment, cigarettes and gas/petrol/oil etc etc).

For me, im only invested in gold to make a profit.

It’s certainly not an “Urban Myth” – indeed if one truly thinks about it, it’s basic Economics and common sense.

Whilst there are some Funds which may have actual physical Gold holdings to support the total value of their issued Shares, the vast majority are using whatever Holdings they have to Trade and leverage – Futures, Derivatives, whatever, all of which are ephemeral – and the corresponding “other side” in each transaction trades it on, and so the cycle continues – a whole cosmos of business based on what may be nothing more than the assumption, the trust, that the original Trader actually has physical Product to back up his initial transaction ............ and that the same Unit of physical Product has not already been committed several times over to guarantee other Trades of course.

Simple exercise: Just consider for a moment the outgoings, the expenses, which have to be borne by the majority of these Funds:

Rent of secure premises, Insurance, Salaries and Commissions .......... and of course the 6 – 10% per Annum “Dividend” which you receive to name but the most obvious. From where does money – actual Cash money - come to pay these expenses?

Do you imagine that at the end of every month the Fund Manager gives a flunky a few Kilos of physical Gold from the Vault and tells him to go to the Bank next door and get Cash at the current Market price? Of course not, expenses are met by continuing the incestuous Trading cycle – but eventually that cycle must end.

Patrick

[ExpatJ]

This is largely an urban myth. Any reputable gold fund gets audited almost 24/7 as big institutional investors investigate and then buy in. Certainly the SPDR gold fund that KBANK is based on is in the top 10 gold holders in the world and the gold is held in HSBC london vaults. Also you have to ask yourself why you are investing in gold- if you are investing for profit then a gold fund that pays dividends is surely a better investment that physical gold bearing in mind the small chance of a global melt down. The latter is the other reason that many buy gold is as security in the event that the system collapses i.e. where paper money becomes worthless and most/all insitutions fail (though its also worth pointing out that if society collapses, physical gold will be worth less than tinned food goods, guns, fishing equipment, cigarettes and gas/petrol/oil etc etc).

For me, im only invested in gold to make a profit.

It's certainly not an "Urban Myth" – indeed if one truly thinks about it, it's basic Economics and common sense.

Whilst there are some Funds which may have actual physical Gold holdings to support the total value of their issued Shares, the vast majority are using whatever Holdings they have to Trade and leverage – Futures, Derivatives, whatever, all of which are ephemeral – and the corresponding "other side" in each transaction trades it on, and so the cycle continues – a whole cosmos of business based on what may be nothing more than the assumption, the trust, that the original Trader actually has physical Product to back up his initial transaction ............ and that the same Unit of physical Product has not already been committed several times over to guarantee other Trades of course.

Simple exercise: Just consider for a moment the outgoings, the expenses, which have to be borne by the majority of these Funds:

Rent of secure premises, Insurance, Salaries and Commissions .......... and of course the 6 – 10% per Annum "Dividend" which you receive to name but the most obvious. From where does money – actual Cash money - come to pay these expenses?

Do you imagine that at the end of every month the Fund Manager gives a flunky a few Kilos of physical Gold from the Vault and tells him to go to the Bank next door and get Cash at the current Market price? Of course not, expenses are met by continuing the incestuous Trading cycle – but eventually that cycle must end.

Patrick

Yes some funds are well managed, some are scams. So important to do your research and pick those with actual gold holdings . The Kbank fund invests in mining stocks and other gold related stocks/bonds so i imagine thats where the bulk of the Kgold Fund dividend comes from. Yes there is increased risk in an ETF because the company itself may go bust as opposed to holding physical gold- for me the dividends payments more than make up for that risk.

[Naam]

Yes some funds are well managed, some are scams. So important to do your research and pick those with actual gold holdings . The Kbank fund invests in mining stocks and other gold related stocks/bonds so i imagine thats where the bulk of the Kgold Fund dividend comes from. Yes there is increased risk in an ETF because the company itself may go bust as opposed to holding physical gold- for me the dividends payments more than make up for that risk.

a seasoned investor knows that there is no gold fund that is able to pay 6-10% dividends p.a. without resorting to derivative trading such as writing covered calls on their own equity and generate some cash due to volatility. and the latter means risk and loss of capital. as simple as that!

any paper gold investor should read and digest p_brownstone's arguments which do hit the nail on the head.

[ExpatJ]

Yes some funds are well managed, some are scams. So important to do your research and pick those with actual gold holdings . The Kbank fund invests in mining stocks and other gold related stocks/bonds so i imagine thats where the bulk of the Kgold Fund dividend comes from. Yes there is increased risk in an ETF because the company itself may go bust as opposed to holding physical gold- for me the dividends payments more than make up for that risk.

a seasoned investor knows that there is no gold fund that is able to pay 6-10% dividends p.a. without resorting to derivative trading such as writing covered calls on their own equity and generate some cash due to volatility. and the latter means risk and loss of capital. as simple as that!

any paper gold investor should read and digest p_brownstone's arguments which do hit the nail on the head.

Yes, ETF type funds have a risk above and beyond physical gold for a variety of reasons including those mentioned by p_brownstone and myself in posts above - but for me, im comfortable and willing to take this greater risk in exchange for the extra return above and beyond what i would get for holding physical gold - and Kgolds 6% twice (10% last year) yearly dividends are very nice (but this this is the beauty of investing, theres something every one

Note- i also hold about 10% of my portfolio in physical gold and am happy to forgoe a higher return from gold funds for the extra security- the portion going into this Kgold fund is about 8% of my portfolio.

Edited July 17, 2011 by ExpatJ

[Naam]

but for me, im comfortable and willing to take this greater risk in exchange for the extra return above and beyond what i would get for holding physical gold - and Kgolds 6% twice (10% last year) yearly dividends are very nice...

have you done your homework ExpatJ? did you check how the actual fund price fared compared to physical gold? without this comparison any dividend percentage is meaningless, id est if the share price did not match exactly the price of physical or perhaps trails physical by 10% then the dividend is nothing but a lukewarm fart.

:jap:

[ExpatJ]

but for me, im comfortable and willing to take this greater risk in exchange for the extra return above and beyond what i would get for holding physical gold - and Kgolds 6% twice (10% last year) yearly dividends are very nice...

have you done your homework ExpatJ? did you check how the actual fund price fared compared to physical gold? without this comparison any dividend percentage is meaningless, id est if the share price did not match exactly the price of physical or perhaps trails physical by 10% then the dividend is nothing but a lukewarm fart.

:jap:

Excellent point! Yes, the Kgold fund almost exactly matches physical gold price since its inception..

[Naam]

Excellent point! Yes, the Kgold fund almost exactly matches physical gold price since its inception..

any link to facts available?

[Naam]

here some facts:

since inception aug 2008..Gold +100% / KGold +60% =

YTD.....Gold +12% / KGold +12% =

1Y........Gold +36% / KGold +28% = depending on dividend paid

3Y........Gold +60% / KGold +60% =

fiscal year 01-04-2010 > 31-03-2011:

Gold +35% / KGold +60% plus dividend = impressive :jap:

[ExpatJ]

here some facts:

since inception aug 2008..Gold +100% / KGold +60% =

YTD.....Gold +12% / KGold +12% =

1Y........Gold +36% / KGold +28% = depending on dividend paid

3Y........Gold +60% / KGold +60% =

fiscal year 01-04-2010 > 31-03-2011:

Gold +35% / KGold +60% plus dividend = impressive

Exactly. Actually i should say the dividend payments range from 3-6 % not the higher ones i said earlier (miss typed, not that im getting a cut for new investors in the fund or anything)- but the dividends are paid out 2-3 times per year so thats still outstanding :jap:

[Naam]

Exactly. Actually i should say the dividend payments range from 3-6 % not the higher ones i said earlier (miss typed, not that im getting a cut for new investors in the fund or anything)- but the dividends are paid out 2-3 times per year so thats still outstanding :jap:

terribly sorry but i have to correct my calculation for the last fiscal year! the correct percentages are Gold +28% / KGold +25.5% plus dividend yield for last fiscal year 5.431% = fund +2.93% above physical = not exactly outstanding.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=KASGOLD:TB

p.s. i did not consider any exchange rate effect because KGold is quoted in THB and physical Gold in USD.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Naam

[ExpatJ]

Exactly. Actually i should say the dividend payments range from 3-6 % not the higher ones i said earlier (miss typed, not that im getting a cut for new investors in the fund or anything)- but the dividends are paid out 2-3 times per year so thats still outstanding :jap:

terribly sorry but i have to correct my calculation for the last fiscal year! the correct percentages are Gold +28% / KGold +25.5% plus dividend yield for last fiscal year 5.431% = fund +2.93% above physical = not exactly outstanding.

http://www.bloomberg...cker=KASGOLD:TB

p.s. i did not consider any exchange rate effect because KGold is quoted in THB and physical Gold in USD.

Its important to invest in what one feels comfortable with and i would advise you to buy physical gold before branching out into gold funds- but for me, with this portion of my portfolio, i am looking for a cash income plus capital appreciation which a gold fund can provide but not the physical stuff.

[ExpatJ]

Exactly. Actually i should say the dividend payments range from 3-6 % not the higher ones i said earlier (miss typed, not that im getting a cut for new investors in the fund or anything)- but the dividends are paid out 2-3 times per year so thats still outstanding :jap:

terribly sorry but i have to correct my calculation for the last fiscal year! the correct percentages are Gold +28% / KGold +25.5% plus dividend yield for last fiscal year 5.431% = fund +2.93% above physical = not exactly outstanding.

http://www.bloomberg...cker=KASGOLD:TB

p.s. i did not consider any exchange rate effect because KGold is quoted in THB and physical Gold in USD.

Its important to invest in what one feels comfortable with and funds are more risky than physical gold so i would advise you (or anyone) to buy physical gold before branching out into gold funds- but for me, with this portion of my portfolio, i am looking for a cash income plus capital appreciation which a gold fund can provide but not the physical stuff.

Edited July 18, 2011 by ExpatJ

[KRS1]

Why do you say that I will have already lost the case? The guy who bought the gold first said he had taken it to a gold shop and then he said he had taken it to 2 Asian gold shops. I think he is being less than truthful.

Anyway I advised him that he should take it to a professional gold assayer and gave him a local list. I als told him that Paypal would expect to see forrmal test results not here say. I also said that both he and I should be able to liaise with the assayer to ensure that what was being tested was what was sent etc. Informaed paypal of this already.

I checked the gold by going back to the same shop I have used many times and asked if they would buy back at the much higher price now and no problem so that confirmed to me that it must be for real.

See image

But I did sell one of the bars to someone in California and then a few days after they received it they said that it was fake and that they had been to a gold shop that day. I know its not fake and I advised them to take it to a real gold expert, thai town in LA or alike becuase western gold shops are not used to dealing with Thai yellow gold, nor are they aware that its a better investment and 100% cash to value redeemable. Now I have a dilemma trying to convince the buyer that what they have is the real deal.

Not sure how best to proceed with this

Hope you didn't use Paypal, because you would have already lost the case.

Back 20 years ago i took a gold thai bracelet to a jewelery store to get an estimate of value, they also told me it was fake, but they didn't seem like it was a big deal.

Fast forward 7 years later i get the bracelet weighed and the bracelet was lighter than when i first had it, by 3.5 grams. That shop 7 years ago had the bracelet in the back for more than half an hour and i always wondered why it took so long, theres no doubt in my mind that they took some gold off and stretched it back into length.

In thailand there is a saying, "if you see a snake and an indian at the same time, hit the indian first."

No offense intended to you. It's just that Paypal will always take sides with the buyer, thats there MO. Ive lost 3 cases to scammers thanks to Paypal.

Paypal does not protect the sellers, and don't even think of selling something without tracking. Any paper evidence that he provides will not be able to be viewed by you at all.

That guys scamming you, no one buys that much gold without knowing what they are getting into.

When dealing with gold you should really use Western Union.

[tracy3eyes]

Why do you say that I will have already lost the case? The guy who bought the gold first said he had taken it to a gold shop and then he said he had taken it to 2 Asian gold shops. I think he is being less than truthful.

Anyway I advised him that he should take it to a professional gold assayer and gave him a local list. I als told him that Paypal would expect to see forrmal test results not here say. I also said that both he and I should be able to liaise with the assayer to ensure that what was being tested was what was sent etc. Informaed paypal of this already.

I checked the gold by going back to the same shop I have used many times and asked if they would buy back at the much higher price now and no problem so that confirmed to me that it must be for real.

See image

But I did sell one of the bars to someone in California and then a few days after they received it they said that it was fake and that they had been to a gold shop that day. I know its not fake and I advised them to take it to a real gold expert, thai town in LA or alike becuase western gold shops are not used to dealing with Thai yellow gold, nor are they aware that its a better investment and 100% cash to value redeemable. Now I have a dilemma trying to convince the buyer that what they have is the real deal.

Not sure how best to proceed with this

Hope you didn't use Paypal, because you would have already lost the case.

Back 20 years ago i took a gold thai bracelet to a jewelery store to get an estimate of value, they also told me it was fake, but they didn't seem like it was a big deal.

Fast forward 7 years later i get the bracelet weighed and the bracelet was lighter than when i first had it, by 3.5 grams. That shop 7 years ago had the bracelet in the back for more than half an hour and i always wondered why it took so long, theres no doubt in my mind that they took some gold off and stretched it back into length.

In thailand there is a saying, "if you see a snake and an indian at the same time, hit the indian first."

No offense intended to you. It's just that Paypal will always take sides with the buyer, thats there MO. Ive lost 3 cases to scammers thanks to Paypal.

Paypal does not protect the sellers, and don't even think of selling something without tracking. Any paper evidence that he provides will not be able to be viewed by you at all.

That guys scamming you, no one buys that much gold without knowing what they are getting into.

When dealing with gold you should really use Western Union.

Thanks for the info.

How is it possible for the buyer to just claim something is fake and get away with it?

I withdrew the monies from paypal straightaway now paypal balance is negative to the sum that the buyer paid.

What will happen now? Will paypal try to get the money back from me? And how?

When they try cant I demand the item be returned to me before I pay any money back?

Is there any legal steps I can take?

Surely paypal wont allow the buyer to get their money back and keep the gold?

[KRS1]

All the buyer has to do is send you an empty box with tracking number, and Paypal will calculate the shipping cost associated with the weight. That's all a scammer has to do to steal from you.

First you will lose the gold cost which you have already paid, then Paypal will deduct from you again and you will lose that also whenever there are funds in your account. YOU WILL LOSE DOUBLE YOUR AMOUNT.

All Paypal wants is a tracking number. If the buyer doesn't reply with a tracking number within the dispute time, you will win the case and the negative balance will be cleared.

If you used ebay to sell, those bastards will deduct from your credit card on file. Ebay and paypal are owned by the same company. While Paypal is a bit better, the ebay claims and fraud protection department is run by a bunch of cun_ts in the UK , with a power trip.

The only company I know that can defeat Paypal is American Express, i've won 2 claims from Paypal scammers by filing a dispute with American Express, when my purchases were processed with Paypal cc processing using my Amex card. Always use Amex for online purchases.

I love American Express, they are truly customer oriented and love their customers, eventhough customer service is run out of India. In both cases I was the buyer though not the seller.

Edited July 19, 2011 by KRS1

[tracy3eyes]

All the buyer has to do is send you an empty box with tracking number, and Paypal will calculate the shipping cost associated with the weight. That's all a scammer has to do to steal from you.

First you will lose the gold cost which you have already paid, then Paypal will deduct from you again and you will lose that also whenever there are funds in your account. YOU WILL LOSE DOUBLE YOUR AMOUNT.

All Paypal wants is a tracking number. If the buyer doesn't reply with a tracking number within the dispute time, you will win the case and the negative balance will be cleared.

If you used ebay to sell, those bastards will deduct from your credit card on file. Ebay and paypal are owned by the same company. While Paypal is a bit better, the ebay claims and fraud protection department is run by a bunch of cun_ts in the UK , with a power trip.

The only company I know that can defeat Paypal is American Express, i've won 2 claims from Paypal scammers by filing a dispute with American Express, when my purchases were processed with Paypal cc processing using my Amex card. Always use Amex for online purchases.

I love American Express, they are truly custos for th headsmer oriented and love their customers, eventhough customer service is run out of India. In both cases I was the buyer though not the seller.

Thanks for the heads up. Let you know how it unfolds.

[tracy3eyes]

Why do you say that I will have already lost the case? The guy who bought the gold first said he had taken it to a gold shop and then he said he had taken it to 2 Asian gold shops. I think he is being less than truthful.

Anyway I advised him that he should take it to a professional gold assayer and gave him a local list. I als told him that Paypal would expect to see forrmal test results not here say. I also said that both he and I should be able to liaise with the assayer to ensure that what was being tested was what was sent etc. Informaed paypal of this already.

I checked the gold by going back to the same shop I have used many times and asked if they would buy back at the much higher price now and no problem so that confirmed to me that it must be for real.

See image

But I did sell one of the bars to someone in California and then a few days after they received it they said that it was fake and that they had been to a gold shop that day. I know its not fake and I advised them to take it to a real gold expert, thai town in LA or alike becuase western gold shops are not used to dealing with Thai yellow gold, nor are they aware that its a better investment and 100% cash to value redeemable. Now I have a dilemma trying to convince the buyer that what they have is the real deal.

Not sure how best to proceed with this

Hope you didn't use Paypal, because you would have already lost the case.

Back 20 years ago i took a gold thai bracelet to a jewelery store to get an estimate of value, they also told me it was fake, but they didn't seem like it was a big deal.

Fast forward 7 years later i get the bracelet weighed and the bracelet was lighter than when i first had it, by 3.5 grams. That shop 7 years ago had the bracelet in the back for more than half an hour and i always wondered why it took so long, theres no doubt in my mind that they took some gold off and stretched it back into length.

In thailand there is a saying, "if you see a snake and an indian at the same time, hit the indian first."

No offense intended to you. It's just that Paypal will always take sides with the buyer, thats there MO. Ive lost 3 cases to scammers thanks to Paypal.

Paypal does not protect the sellers, and don't even think of selling something without tracking. Any paper evidence that he provides will not be able to be viewed by you at all.

That guys scamming you, no one buys that much gold without knowing what they are getting into.

When dealing with gold you should really use Western Union.

I have just had a gold ingot returned to me because the buyer says its fake and I need to get the money back from the shop i bought it from. How best should I approach this? Just go to the shop? Consult a lawyer first? Report it to the police. Ideas on best approach?

Thanks

[cloudhopper]

How about you just go back to the shop and sell it back to them, most likely for more than you paid.

[MAJIC]

What does one say to someone who has been told by a western gold shop that the thai gold they have is fake? When it isnt

Sounds like the same kind of Western shop that offered me £75 for my half baht Thai ring and 2 weeks later I sold it to a Thai gold shop for £270.

Edited August 8, 2011 by MAJIC

[maccaroni man]

Problem is Im in Thai and they are in California. But I will tell them anyway. Assume there are assayer offices in California? Is that what they call them in the US?

typically the pawn shops will do a chemical test and can validate the bar within minutes.

[tracy3eyes]

How about you just go back to the shop and sell it back to them, most likely for more than you paid.

I am concerned that they will say that it was not what they sold me, although do I have receipt ticket and evidence of withdrawing the money from the nearest bangkok bank (150m away) 10 mins before the purchase.

I dont want to waltz in without fully understanding my options and best approach. i.e. do I go see my lawyer first? go to police first or go back to shop first and reveal my hand.

Any ideas? Anybody?

[cloudhopper]

In your case it's usually better to go straight to your embassy and have them call in an air strike on that shop Tracy.

[tracy3eyes]

I checked the gold by going back to the same shop I have used many times and asked if they would buy back at the much higher price now and no problem so that confirmed to me that it must be for real.

See image

But I did sell one of the bars to someone in California and then a few days after they received it they said that it was fake and that they had been to a gold shop that day. I know its not fake and I advised them to take it to a real gold expert, thai town in LA or alike becuase western gold shops are not used to dealing with Thai yellow gold, nor are they aware that its a better investment and 100% cash to value redeemable. Now I have a dilemma trying to convince the buyer that what they have is the real deal.

Not sure how best to proceed with this

Hope you didn't use Paypal, because you would have already lost the case.

Back 20 years ago i took a gold thai bracelet to a jewelery store to get an estimate of value, they also told me it was fake, but they didn't seem like it was a big deal.

Fast forward 7 years later i get the bracelet weighed and the bracelet was lighter than when i first had it, by 3.5 grams. That shop 7 years ago had the bracelet in the back for more than half an hour and i always wondered why it took so long, theres no doubt in my mind that they took some gold off and stretched it back into length.

In thailand there is a saying, "if you see a snake and an indian at the same time, hit the indian first."

No offense intended to you. It's just that Paypal will always take sides with the buyer, thats there MO. Ive lost 3 cases to scammers thanks to Paypal.

Paypal does not protect the sellers, and don't even think of selling something without tracking. Any paper evidence that he provides will not be able to be viewed by you at all.

That guys scamming you, no one buys that much gold without knowing what they are getting into.

When dealing with gold you should really use Western Union.

I have just had a gold ingot returned to me because the buyer says its fake and I need to get the money back from the shop i bought it from. How best should I approach this? Just go to the shop? Consult a lawyer first? Report it to the police. Ideas on best approach?

Thanks

I went to the fedex office yesterday to have the so called return shipment opened by a fedex employee before I signed for anything and guess what the buyer didnt send back what I sent him. In its place was a fake bar with a lipped edge and all the writing and markings were in english. It looked like a fake US bar becaue it said fine gold on it. Anyway I took photos and refused to accept the package and signed for nothing. The size also does not reflect what the buyer received and that is acknowledged by him with paypal. Anyway I have already provided the images to Paypal and they were already suspicious before this. But they say that even if they were to find in my favour the buyer can still press his credit card company for a chargeback so I may lose out. How can Paypal allow such a thing to happen if the find in my favour. This means that both Paypal and Credit card companies are aiding criminals and fraud!

Just unbelievable!!!

[hyperdimension]

So what happened afterwards? Who lost and who won?

[jsflynn603]

In America most reputable buyers would pay you the rate for 18kt. Why?

Because 23kt does not really exist in trade in the US (it does but it's specialized, such as Chinese shops).

A reputable dealer has a ring, on it are usually 6 "fingers" On the tip of each finger is a small ~3x1.5x2mm piece of 10k, 12k, 14kt, 18kt and pure gold.

The dealer rubs the item and if necessary uses a file to make sure she gets beneath any plating onto a piece of stone that is rough (like sandstone but sandstone is too porous)

Then the dealer takes a glass stoppered bottle of concentrated nitric acid and makes a small drop on the stone. Next she add a few tiny grains of salt.

The salt disassociates and gives Cl ions which react with the nitric acid to create Aqua Regia which will dissolve pure gold. The dealer if she suspects that it is 14kt makes a mark to the left of the mark that the rubbed item made with the 12kt finger--then makes to the right, a mark with the 18kt finger. The dealer then takes the glass end of the stopper and wipes a smear of the aqua regia across the three stripes. If it's 14kt, within a minute the 12kt line disappears. Another minute the 14kt line (from the item for sale) disappears, and a few minutes later, the 18k line disappears.

Your small ingot would disappear after the 18kt line, but before the pure gold line. Still most dealers would only offer you the going rate for the 18kt because they cannot tell if it's 18, 20, 23 1/2kt, but they know it's better than 18kt.

You cannot assay a single ounce of gold. Well you can, but about the cheapest assayer would charge you (in the US about $125).

If I were buying this and thought the small ingot might have a different metal core I'd explain that I would cut it in half and make a mark from the inside center and if it held true I'd pay you the 18kt rate.

Hope this helps to understand the process.

Oh, by the way, there are other types of chemical kits but the fingers are the ones that I like and use.

[jsflynn603]

You wrote:

No offense intended to you. It's just that Paypal will always take sides with the buyer, thats there MO. Ive lost 3 cases to scammers thanks to Paypal.

Paypal does not protect the sellers, and don't even think of selling something without tracking. Any paper evidence that he provides will not be able to be viewed by you at all.

Agreed! Though once Paypal sided with a "big" seller over me the buyer--in violation of their own rules.

Paypal in my opinion is a "necessary evil." But beware of them. They are not a bank and accountable to nobody.