Chaos At Bangkok's Zen After Red Shirt Surrender, Court Hears

[animatic]

I pretty much agree with that. The coup wasn't done for the hell of it, it was a reaction to some serious problems. Had Thaksin and his government respected the bounds of office I very much doubt the coup would have occurred.

But since he didn't, its hypothetical.

Agreed.

[animatic]

This is what Nick entirely ignores. Lots of speculation etc etc ... but simply the situation arose from Thaksin's abuses. He thought that after buying up the regional power families and thus the vote, that he could act any way he chose to. The Dems called him on it leading to the failed elections. Thaksin quitting. Thaksin returning. The coup then followed.

We have a few more days to see how this election plays out ... maybe longer if things get kicked up to the Constitutional court level and the reds stay quiet and don't attack the EC.

Actually, i haven't ignored this point at all - i have made several posts concerning the points raised. I just do not agree with the view as it does not take the particular Thai complexities into account.

The problem existed,

neither of you agrees as to the severity of the problem or it's logical progression if the coup hadn't arrested that progression and sent things in a different direction.

The most startling difference in the post coup period is Thaksin himself not acting 'in the Thai way' and going to ground, taking a 10 year political sabbatical, and then returning. Instead he turned the game on it's head and fought. No doubt this tactic has to do with 'health, aging and current status of the future' being in flux. The maneuvering for a different future is putting ALL Thais at risk.

But the primary driver for this exercise in positioning is, by far, not the best choice for the people in the long run. Anything but. Regardless of back story, historical perspective, and interacting 'In The Thai Way', this is a new game being played, and 'Thai Ways' are not being as respected, as in the past, and that's why it is so dangerous, most don't fully understand how far it can or will go.

Edited July 30, 2011 by animatic

[metisdead]

This topic has gone so far off topic, here's a reminder of the subject of this topic:

Chaos At Bangkok's Zen After Red Shirt Surrender, Court Hears

Perhaps we can try to get back on topic?

[Siam Simon]

The problem existed,

neither of you agrees as to the severity of the problem or it's logical progression if the coup hadn't arrested that progression and sent things in a different direction.

The most startling difference in the post coup period is Thaksin himself not acting 'in the Thai way' and going to ground, taking a 10 year political sabbatical, and then returning. Instead he turned the game on it's head and fought. No doubt this tactic has to do with 'health, aging and current status of the future' being in flux. The maneuvering for a different future is putting ALL Thais at risk.

But the primary driver for this exercise in positioning is, by far, not the best choice for the people in the long run. Anything but. Regardless of back story, historical perspective, and interacting 'In The Thai Way', this is a new game being played, and 'Thai Ways' are not being as respected, as in the past, and that's why it is so dangerous, most don't fully understand how far it can or will go.

Notwithstanding the fact that the quoted poster has ignored his own advice earlier in this thread about getting back ontopic, there are many examples on this forum of insulting the perceptions and intelligence of the Thai population as a whole, which appear to me to be in direct conflict with rule 8 of the forum rules. The post quoted just about takes the biscuit for me, and I've reported it. And why do some posters think that shrouding their bs in a thesaurus makes the message any more reasonable?

[Scott]

Criticism of politicians is not necessarily an indictment against the entire population of a country. However, please exercise care in posting and, as noted, stay on topic.

[whybother]

Has there been anything new from the court case since the first page?

[metisdead]

This topic has gone so far off topic, here's a reminder of the subject of this topic:

Chaos At Bangkok's Zen After Red Shirt Surrender, Court Hears

Perhaps we can try to get back on topic?

Posters are reminded to stay on topic and to refrain from comments concerning the character of other posters. Off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[nicknostitz]

Confusing testimony from security guard in CentralWorld fire case

By PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK

THE NATION

Published on August 3, 2011

A prosecution witness who claimed who have taken a photograph of one of the two adult defendants in the case of the CentralWorld shopping-complex fire in May last year, yesterday gave confusing testimony as to how sure he was that the man in the blurry picture was in fact Saichon Paebua.

Ratchaphon Charoensuk, a security guard at CentralWorld who was assigned to take pictures of intruders in the immediate aftermath of the May 19 military suppression of red shirts in the area, first told the court that he had recognised Saichon from the photo he took, and had later identified him to the police on that basis. However, after further questioning yesterday by the prosecution, he told the court that he might have recognised Saichon from both the memory of what he had seen through his viewfinder and again by looking at the picture he took.Ratchapon said he had taken the blurry picture from a distance of about 20 metres and through a glass window. He told the court he was unaware of whether Saichon had been engaged in either theft or arson. Saichon and another red-shirt man face the maximum penalty of death for allegedly setting fire to the building and causing the death of a man who is believed to have suffocated on the fourth floor of the shopping complex.Saichon, who was not arrested at the scene but more than two weeks later at Sanam Luang, told The Nation yesterday afternoon that he had been forced to admit that he was the man in the photograph because "police threatened to lynch me and send me to the military". Saichon - a red-shirt guard - is illiterate, claims he is unsure of his exact age and says he can only sign his name.A defence lawyer yesterday tried to cast doubt over whether the man found dead after the fire had indeed died due to suffocation or had been killed by someone prior to the fire.However, a witness appeared unable to provide any conclusive testimony beyond saying that by the time he saw the body, it was "slightly smelly".The trial continues today with the prosecution vowing to screen a damning video implicating the two defendants.

[nicknostitz]

Officer relied on a blurred image to make arrest over CentralWorld fire

By PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK

THE NATION

Published on August 4, 2011 <br class="clear-all">

A police officer who arrested one of the two suspects for the arson attack on CentralWorld shopping centre on May 19, 2010, admitted in court yesterday that he had relied on one blurry photograph to make the arrest.

Pol Captain Pornlert Rattanakam testified that the arrest of Saichon Paebua was based on a blurry silhouette image of a man walking during an unspecified place and time. Asked by a defence lawyer whether the picture showed a |man with a sharp chin, Pornlert admitted that he could not really tell from the image.

However, the police officer told the court that he believed the man in the photograph resembled Saichon, and that the defendant had himself admitted being the person in the image after he was arrested on June 7 last year in the Sanam Luang area.

Saichon, who could face the death penalty if convicted of set-ting fire to the shopping complex, which cost a life, told The Nation on Tuesday that his confession |was made under duress and that police threatened to have him |tortured and handed over to the Army.

Although Saichon signed the blurry image after he was arrested, the defence lawyers questioned whether the defendant really knew what he was putting his name on, because he is illiterate. The arresting officer, however, insisted that Saichon knew his rights.

The next hearing is on August 23.

Another prosecution witness yesterday was Sataporn Paothong, an underwriter with Thai Setakij Insurance. Sataporn told the court that Central Pattana, the owner of CentralWorld, had a Bt3.5-billion policy for terrorism attacks and that it would cover if the courts can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the fire was an act of terrorism.

He added that Central Pattana also had fire insurance worth Bt8.5 billion with Deves Insurance. According to information available, the Crown Property Bureau owns 98.2 per cent of Deves Insurance, and the remainder is owned privately by His Majesty the King. The CentralWorld shopping complex is also located on land owned by the Crown Property Bureau.

[phiphidon]

Officer relied on a blurred image to make arrest over CentralWorld fire

By PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK

THE NATION

Published on August 4, 2011 <br class="clear-all">

A police officer who arrested one of the two suspects for the arson attack on CentralWorld shopping centre on May 19, 2010, admitted in court yesterday that he had relied on one blurry photograph to make the arrest.

Pol Captain Pornlert Rattanakam testified that the arrest of Saichon Paebua was based on a blurry silhouette image of a man walking during an unspecified place and time. Asked by a defence lawyer whether the picture showed a |man with a sharp chin, Pornlert admitted that he could not really tell from the image.

However, the police officer told the court that he believed the man in the photograph resembled Saichon, and that the defendant had himself admitted being the person in the image after he was arrested on June 7 last year in the Sanam Luang area.

Saichon, who could face the death penalty if convicted of set-ting fire to the shopping complex, which cost a life, told The Nation on Tuesday that his confession |was made under duress and that police threatened to have him |tortured and handed over to the Army.

Although Saichon signed the blurry image after he was arrested, the defence lawyers questioned whether the defendant really knew what he was putting his name on, because he is illiterate. The arresting officer, however, insisted that Saichon knew his rights.

The next hearing is on August 23.

Another prosecution witness yesterday was Sataporn Paothong, an underwriter with Thai Setakij Insurance. Sataporn told the court that Central Pattana, the owner of CentralWorld, had a Bt3.5-billion policy for terrorism attacks and that it would cover if the courts can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the fire was an act of terrorism.

He added that Central Pattana also had fire insurance worth Bt8.5 billion with Deves Insurance. According to information available, the Crown Property Bureau owns 98.2 per cent of Deves Insurance, and the remainder is owned privately by His Majesty the King. The CentralWorld shopping complex is also located on land owned by the Crown Property Bureau.

Another prosecution witness yesterday was Sataporn Paothong, an underwriter with Thai Setakij Insurance. Sataporn told the court that Central Pattana, the owner of CentralWorld, had a Bt3.5-billion policy for terrorism attacks and that it would cover if the courts can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the firewas an act of terrorism.

No pressure there then..................

[nicknostitz]

There are also some interesting articles about the case written by Achara Ashayagachat in the other paper.

[Siam Simon]

Thanks for the update, Nick. This case is starting to smell of something other than what has been presented to the court by the prosecution.

[scotbeve]

A few Thais I spoke to about this a while back are of the belief that this was an inside job for insurance purposes.

I am aware of this conspiracy theory.

No evidence though came out to support this idea.

Opportunistic folks have done this in Thailand and everywhere else in the world. Quite a feasible "theory".

[whybother]

A few Thais I spoke to about this a while back are of the belief that this was an inside job for insurance purposes.

I am aware of this conspiracy theory.

No evidence though came out to support this idea.

Opportunistic folks have done this in Thailand and everywhere else in the world. Quite a feasible "theory".

I might have been lit by a laser beam from a CIA satellite too. No evidence, but who needs evidence for ridiculous theories.

[scotbeve]

A few Thais I spoke to about this a while back are of the belief that this was an inside job for insurance purposes.

I am aware of this conspiracy theory.

No evidence though came out to support this idea.

Opportunistic folks have done this in Thailand and everywhere else in the world. Quite a feasible "theory".

I might have been lit by a laser beam from a CIA satellite too. No evidence, but who needs evidence for ridiculous theories.

Why bother,

I DID say "feasible". Definitely NOT ridiculous... There was an MP 15+ years ago in the north who did this not once, but twice... He had his business premises torched for the insurance money. No charges brought forward...

[whybother]

Why bother,

I DID say "feasible". Definitely NOT ridiculous... There was an MP 15+ years ago in the north who did this not once, but twice... He had his business premises torched for the insurance money. No charges brought forward...

Feasible ... but no evidence. I'm sure there are plenty of other "feasible" theories of which there is no evidence. Do you want to bring all of those up, too?

[rubl]

Why bother,

I DID say "feasible". Definitely NOT ridiculous... There was an MP 15+ years ago in the north who did this not once, but twice... He had his business premises torched for the insurance money. No charges brought forward...

Feasible ... but no evidence. I'm sure there are plenty of other "feasible" theories of which there is no evidence. Do you want to bring all of those up, too?

I guess this means none have anything new, substantial to add? Why not continue with the topic on 169 bodies of possible red colour found ?

[scotbeve]

Why bother,

I DID say "feasible". Definitely NOT ridiculous... There was an MP 15+ years ago in the north who did this not once, but twice... He had his business premises torched for the insurance money. No charges brought forward...

Feasible ... but no evidence. I'm sure there are plenty of other "feasible" theories of which there is no evidence. Do you want to bring all of those up, too?

whybother,

No need to bring them up but no need to discount them so rapidly either.... I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I do like to look at all sides for a better balanced view.

[scotbeve]

Why bother,

I DID say "feasible". Definitely NOT ridiculous... There was an MP 15+ years ago in the north who did this not once, but twice... He had his business premises torched for the insurance money. No charges brought forward...

Feasible ... but no evidence. I'm sure there are plenty of other "feasible" theories of which there is no evidence. Do you want to bring all of those up, too?

I guess this means none have anything new, substantial to add? Why not continue with the topic on 169 bodies of possible red colour found ?

Yes dear Rubl, "possible" red color....

[oldsailor35]

In spite of what Peua Thai says, I don't think we will ever know for sure without any doubt who burned down Centralworld, Zen, etc. Now that PT is in power, any of their guilt will be swept under the carpet. By the time the Shinawatra clan, PT, the Red Shirts, and the UDD are kicked out, we'll all be so old and grey-haired, and our memories of of 2010 will have long faded.

I'm keen to see how many PT politicians end up on the Forbes list of the world's richest people.

Those that get there wont be able to move for democrats

[phiphidon]

Why bother,

I DID say "feasible". Definitely NOT ridiculous... There was an MP 15+ years ago in the north who did this not once, but twice... He had his business premises torched for the insurance money. No charges brought forward...

Feasible ... but no evidence. I'm sure there are plenty of other "feasible" theories of which there is no evidence. Do you want to bring all of those up, too?

I guess this means none have anything new, substantial to add? Why not continue with the topic on 169 bodies of possible red colour found ?

Well theres this;

Guard in arson case 'signed police statement without reading it'

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on August 31, 2011

A former security guard who testified to the Criminal Court on the May 19, 2010 arson and death case at Central World told judges yesterday that he had put his signature approving the police statement charging the two defendants without reading the document.

http://www.nationmul...u-30164098.html

[oldsailor35]

It seems to me that the Thai Army, always has been and always will be immune to common Thai law.

[phiphidon]

I guess this means none have anything new, substantial to add? Why not continue with the topic on 169 bodies of possible red colour found ?

Well theres this;

Guard in arson case 'signed police statement without reading it'

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on August 31, 2011

A former security guard who testified to the Criminal Court on the May 19, 2010 arson and death case at Central World told judges yesterday that he had put his signature approving the police statement charging the two defendants without reading the document.

http://www.nationmul...u-30164098.html

and this from an earlier article - for some reason the Courts clerks are banning everyone from making notes now, maybe its too embarassing that the prosecutors key witnesses are not proving as useful as they thought they would be

CentralWorld attackers aimed 'to loot goods'

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on August 24, 2011

A prosecutor witness in the arson case at CentralWorld and Zen department store told the Criminal Court yesterday that many people who entered CentralWorld in the aftermath of the military crackdown on red-shirt protesters on May 19, 2010 were looking to loot goods.

"They probably came in to look for goods," Hansuek Samnakhoad, a senior security staff at CentralWorld, told the two presiding judges.

Hansuek said he personally saw no one setting fire to the complex although he encountered a group of some 30 to 40 men, some armed with sling shots, who had their faces covered.

http://www.nationmul...s-30163496.html

[Siripon]

It seems to me that the Thai Army, always has been and always will be immune to common Thai law.

Thaksin wants the same.