Many Thais Say Corruption Is Acceptable If Country Prospers, Poll Finds

[unanimosity]

It's the Thai mindset from birth to death....2 out 3 Thai's can't be wrong. Always remember, This Is Thailand.

come on in west everyone is as corrupt How many dont mind cheating on an insurance claim How many cheat if they can on their taxes and that just normal people. What about politicians bankers Lawyers overcharging and thats not even going into council in UK or city hall in USA taking money left and right to award contracts. In the west people are a lot more clever to hide it. i dont know a builder in UK who would not give you a large discount for cash or any small business in USA who dont filter away some cash. Here its just more open and you dont need to pay at land office or other place provided you want to wait a lot longer. Same with police if you want they will just give you the ticket and you go down to police station and pay the fine although a number make it clear it would be easier just to save yourself the bother and pay them direct. Ive been in business in USA and UK for 20 years or more and here for about 15 years and theirs no difference at all believe me. Most in the west never see it or know about it and you cana\ spend your whole life doing business in UK and USA without being aware its there but I assure you its as prevalent there as here. Even if its just fancy lunches corporate conventions in 5 star hotels and nice goody bags and thats just small scale stuff.

Grow up people and live in the real world.

They won't find you there, that's for sure.

[falangjim]

How can a country prosper with corruption? Very odd poll question. Anyway, I live here and even though I now call this my home, I feel very removed from all of this corruption... except when I am forced to deal with a government official (very rare) or sit to read TV posts over coffee. Like one poster wrote, why should a foreigner care when he's here living on a pension? While I don't live on a pension, I do find it hard to complain when I consider how easy it was to take my earnings from a 3 year post in the Middle East and set up a family here. Best decisions I ever made. Another great decision was to not actually work here in LOS. Been there, done that. What a headache. For two years I watched Thai kids pushed along the Thai educational system with little to no recourse for subpar performance. So be it. For a foreigner to actually incorporate standards is just asking for trouble, so few do it, and the ones who do, do it much to their own demise. Yeah, corruption. It's here. At all levels. Not worth getting in too much of a fuss over. "Mafi mishkala, mai pen rai, guenchaneyo, no problem." Acquiesce my fellow farang, acquiesce. Live as best you can while here (or anywhere) and tip those taxi drivers. They know where they're going.

[Roadman]

It's the Thai mindset from birth to death....2 out 3 Thai's can't be wrong. Always remember, This Is Thailand.

come on in west everyone is as corrupt How many dont mind cheating on an insurance claim How many cheat if they can on their taxes and that just normal people. What about politicians bankers Lawyers overcharging and thats not even going into council in UK or city hall in USA taking money left and right to award contracts. In the west people are a lot more clever to hide it. i dont know a builder in UK who would not give you a large discount for cash or any small business in USA who dont filter away some cash. Here its just more open and you dont need to pay at land office or other place provided you want to wait a lot longer. Same with police if you want they will just give you the ticket and you go down to police station and pay the fine although a number make it clear it would be easier just to save yourself the bother and pay them direct. Ive been in business in USA and UK for 20 years or more and here for about 15 years and theirs no difference at all believe me. Most in the west never see it or know about it and you cana\ spend your whole life doing business in UK and USA without being aware its there but I assure you its as prevalent there as here. Even if its just fancy lunches corporate conventions in 5 star hotels and nice goody bags and thats just small scale stuff.

Grow up people and live in the real world.

Wrong. "Everyone" in the west? I am not corrupt so your point is invalid. In the last week I have given back an overpayment of $5 in change to a large department store that fits the "could afford it". At work I have withdrawn from a close to finalised deal where the other party suddenly wanted a reinstatement favour - cost to us close to $150k. You chose your own morals and values and your committement to them.

And enough of the bullcrap that the west is corrupt as Thailand. It isn't and more importantly it isn't accepted by two thirds of its citizens. Thailand and Thais are morally corrupt and deserve what they currently have.

[evanson]

Hey, then we would move on to Greece where people are on strike about corruption

Can your imagination stretch to the Thais striking against corruption/marching, as they did in Mexico ... Boggles the mind.

[metisdead]

A post containing false information has been removed.

[evanson]

I keep seeing these stupid posts along the lines of 'Every country in the World is corrupt'. Referencing in the main, Wall Street/politicians/corporations. But I'm willing to bet you go report a crime in your home country, and something gets DONE about it.

And, by the way, not ALL Thais are 'happy' with corruption, they simply feel powerless to do anything about it. Which, given my previous post on other countries taking action, of whatever kind. This, I put down to the stupid amerta/'face' system here.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Unfortunately, for expats living here, the future does not look good.

I've been hearing similar for the last 20 years, yet most Farangs I know who have left Thailand left because they were broke and had no choice.

Given the choice they would probably have stayed here, just like I do, and just like you do.

Not nececelery!

Friends of mine have left so their kids can get a decent education in UK or Malaysia. General consensus is that international schools are poor AND expensive.

Money isn't everything. I'm doing very comfortably thank you but I am considering moving on. Life's a balance. These days Phuket doesn't feel so good.....

Of course, everyone's situation is different, I wasn't writing about you personally was I ?

I stand by what I say, most of the people I know who left Thailand, left because they were skint, not because they wanted to.

Your opinion is, of course, valid, and is based on your experience. It also makes sense that most people who leave are "down on their luck." But, as I am sure you will agree and I think have already, many expats have left who are anything but down on their luck. They simply have had enough of LOS. I certainly do not want to move for financial reasons. In fact, the place I am going to is more expensive than LOS.

[bangkockney]

I keep seeing these stupid posts along the lines of 'Every country in the World is corrupt'. Referencing in the main, Wall Street/politicians/corporations. But I'm willing to bet you go report a crime in your home country, and something gets DONE about it.

And, by the way, not ALL Thais are 'happy' with corruption, they simply feel powerless to do anything about it. Which, given my previous post on other countries taking action, of whatever kind. This, I put down to the stupid amerta/'face' system here.

The 2010 Corruption Perceptions Index shows that nearly three quarters of the 178 countries in the index score below five, on a scale from 10 (highly clean) to 0 (highly corrupt). These results indicate a serious, worldwide corruption problem.

Interestingly, it is the countries that surround Thailand that are more corrupt (Myanmar, Laos, Vietnam, India, Bangladesh, Nepal,Cambodia, Indonesia etc). In fact, in the immediate region, only Malaysia, Macau, Bhutan and Taiwan score better than Thailand.

With reference to the West, Russia is considered to be more corrupt than Thailand (it ranks a full 76 places below Thailand). Russia comes in at 154/178.

There are other European countries that have a comparable corruption perception index to Thailand, such as Italy, Ukraine, Belerus, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Moldova etc

That said, I do of course agree that whilst corruption is certainly present in the West, it is in no way as endemic as other parts of the world. What is interesting, is that there are a large number of European countries that are neither squeaky clean nor riddled with corruption. Hardly a fine example to hold up for the world.

It should also be pointed out that Thailand is in no way the most corrupt country in the world; it ranks 78/178 (i.e. in the top 50%), so massively harsh criticism of Thailand is rather unjustified.

[dominique355]

Perhaps we should take a look at the roots of corruption. Without claiming to be exhaustive, here some reasons why corruption is rampant:

- Inefficient bureaucracy and government agencies with outdated business models

- Lack of education in basic civic rights, organization of communities

- Patronage system; the elders are not questioned, or challenged.

- Thai law against libel and defamation. Truth does not exonerate. Corrupt officials cannot be publicly blamed.

- as the poll shows, people don't think it's bad, don't understand the enormous damage to the country and economy. 20% of taxmoney wasted.

Please add yours...

[bangkockney]

Perhaps we should take a look at the roots of corruption. Without claiming to be exhaustive, here some reasons why corruption is rampant:

- Inefficient bureaucracy and government agencies with outdated business models

- Lack of education in basic civic rights, organization of communities

- Patronage system; the elders are not questioned, or challenged.

- Thai law against libel and defamation. Truth does not exonerate. Corrupt officials cannot be publicly blamed.

- as the poll shows, people don't think it's bad, don't understand the enormous damage to the country and economy. 20% of taxmoney wasted.

Please add yours...

- Low salaries of public servants

- Low education of people

- Big financial gaps between social classes

- Lacking transparency of governance

- Unstable political situation

- Lack of democracy

- Lack of freedom of word

- Heavy bureaucracy

- Centralized power

[GM1955]

Thailand and Thais are morally corrupt and deserve what they currently have.

You married a Thai or live in Thailand I take it, does the ' Thailand and Thais ' apply to your loved ones too, and what country do you come from that is doing so well because of the high moral stance of the institution and the general populace?

USA...

UK..

You cannot be serious !!

Edited July 22, 2011 by GM1955

[osiboy]

here we go again with the thais on the site trying to defend what is obviously disgusting behaviour replying with " look at your country", and "thais are happy with things as they are ",.......... PATHETIC !!, they only THINK they are happy with the way things are here becouse they have never known it any other way , as one commentor stated "its in the thais DNA", ....again its all down to education, how easy are thais to believe what they see on tv ??? ,...... the easiest way to make a million $ in thailand must be to put an advert on TV stating your ' wonder cream' is the fasted and the 'best ever' at making your skin white.........., and when it evidently fails to work , what recourse do thais have ???,..........mmmmm , so gullible its amazing,....ever tried to get your money back from a shop in thailand ??, unless its from an american or european chain you've got no chance, they've got your money and now dont care , not a thought about repeat custom - "live for the now , <deleted> tomorrow" . i went to a resteraunt recently and ordered " pat kapow goong", ... the prawns were 'off ' / rancid' so i informed the waitress who was also the owner , within 10 mins i was served another which was not 'off' but had only half as many prawns .........when given the final bill it included 2 pat kapow goong !!........not a word of appoligy, and they could have put me in hospital or worse , but i still payed for it !!.......... WHERE ARE THEIR MORALS ?? = corrupted beyond repair im afraid !.....their sense of fairness ?, they live, eat , dream and breath only money ,............ this is why its so easy for corruption the breed so rapidly and to be seen as " the norm". take a look at the state of the roads and pavements, not fit for soi dogs to walk on, the schools and health, law and order could all be improved if the money went into the "system instead of greedy pockets ................. mai pen rai !

Edited July 22, 2011 by osiboy

[bangkockney]

Just why are you here then osiboy if you have such contempt for Thailand and Thais?

[DumFarang]

What a surprise!

[DumFarang]

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

I couldn't agree more. I'm not religious, but I'm well aware that my moral base is deeply rooted in Christianity, and all I've done is omitted the God and church part. It's a good moral base to have as well.

[DumFarang]

Not so long ago, I quizzed a newly qualified Thai lady barrister, married to a friend of mine, if she would ever consider taking a bribe.

Without hesitation, she replied "yes, if I thought it would help my family".

This really depressed me. If the younger generation of "well educated" Thais are just as corrupt as their elders there is no hope....

"Without hesitation..." Wow. Her answer might as well have been, "of course!" Followed by loud cackling.

[VBF]

Corruption in the west is as high as it is anywhere, it is just played at a different level, Offer a police officer $50 or 100 pounds GBP and you're likely to get arrested and go to jail, But if you're a big drug dealer and pass across 1m then they take it and your off the hook, (if they can)

Same in business in the West, at the top of the ladder it goes on at the bottom it does not, simply because the stakes are not high enough, could be called greed, Now there is a good religious teaching, never be corrupt unless the stakes are high enough. Who was it that said "A rich man can never enter the Kingdom of Heaven" I forget (facetious)

You would probably go to jail (but not collect 200 pounds) if it was a force other than the Metropolitan police!!!!!

Or you were a member of a family who happened to own a large media empire!

[osiboy]

Just why are you here then osiboy if you have such contempt for Thailand and Thais?

well, i can see why you think i have contempt for thais , but its not contempt, i actually love the place and because my wife, son and business are here , and if a customer is unhappy with a service they will get their money back,... even if i have already been robbed by a thai partener in the past, as have thousands of other investers in this corruption infested place and had no recourse simply becouse im a farang ,.... im an honest guy , and believe it or not love to help people ,.....is there something in my post you dissagree with ?? and why are you here ?? you have kids here ? want a better future for them ?..............be constructive dont just critisise ,... we can all do that !

Edited July 22, 2011 by osiboy

[DumFarang]

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

christian ethics are so just? let us look at the current scandal in the uk with the press or perhaps nixon and watergate a financial system that looked away whilst banks got round bad debt by selling it off...

corruption or cover up?

Don't see what that has to do with western morals which condemn this behavior. These are just more examples of corruption which of course occurs everywhere in the world. The question, especially in relation to the article, is how prevalent is it in any one country, and what view does society have of it? The article makes it clear that a majority of Thais don't mind corruption because they themselves are corrupt.

[DumFarang]

Yes people are very short sighted here. It a "what's in it for me" attitude that pervades this country and will keep it destined to always be a third world country.

They are not just short sighted they are downright greedy (majority). quote=as long as it benefits themselves= Ha Ha would you say that remark was a little selfish ???...........The age group in the poll I would question as it seems to suggest just the younger population, I personally think the older generation are the worst-by far. the youngsters just learn by habit that this is the way here,and the norm. This is rife from the farm to the runaway politicians.

I agree that there's definitely a selfishness to them, but it's of a funny sort isn't it? I mean unless you don't spend time around Thais very often, how many times have you been invited to eat food you haven't paid for or take part in one of the many other things they enjoy doing communally when there's nothing to be gained from your presence except your company? I know this example is a cultural thing, but it's still unselfish of them.

I have trouble putting my finger on the exact way that they are selfish, because in certain regards they definitely are, and then a Thai person will turn around and give me something for free or share with me and my perception changes again. It's weird. It's certainly not pure, outright selfishness that runs through this country. It's almost institutionalized in that there are systematic times when they just will be corrupt, and it's accepted. For instance, when they're driving and a cop pulls them over for speeding they already know that they just need to bribe the guy and avoid all the ticket hassle. It's a funny country for sure.

[slapout]

The next time someone compares corruption in Thailand vs other countries, ask them if the teachers must pay a fee for their promotion (pay increase) to go thru?

How many competitor prices are the same for the same product in other countries vs Thailand? Plus how many competitors do you have for the same product?

The Thai public are exposed to corruption/tea money payments from the time they start preschool and it continues thru some allotted time after death. How do you convince them it is wrong, when virtually every aspect of getting what you need/want depends on it? To compare to the majority of the countries of the world, that we TV members come from or have lived, does not make sense, in my opinion.

[DumFarang]

The next time someone compares corruption in Thailand vs other countries, ask them if the teachers must pay a fee for their promotion (pay increase) to go thru?

How many competitor prices are the same for the same product in other countries vs Thailand? Plus how many competitors do you have for the same product?

The Thai public are exposed to corruption/tea money payments from the time they start preschool and it continues thru some allotted time after death. How do you convince them it is wrong, when virtually every aspect of getting what you need/want depends on it? To compare to the majority of the countries of the world, that we TV members come from or have lived, does not make sense, in my opinion.

It's not quite that bad, although it's true that it's just incorporated into their lives. I wouldn't go as far as to say everything they need/want depends on it, but it's prevalent there can be no doubt. I've only directly seen a Thai bribing another twice (as in handing the money over). The first was my brother in law getting pulled over for speeding and just handing the policeman money and we were on our way again. The second was a bigger deal, and I'm not even exactly sure what it was over, but it was one of those meetings where there's a normal Thai guy and a few other "official" looking ones. I know it was greatly in the Thai guy's interests to keep selling what he was selling at the time, and I don't know if he was stepping on some toes by doing so. But, I saw the money change hands, and it was pretty obvious.

Anyway, I own a business here, and I've never bribed anyone, and if my wife ever bribed anyone she didn't tell me, so I'm pretty sure it never happened because I would have to hear about it as part of the saga of her difficult life which is regularly recited to me. Which reminds me, bribes or no bribes, Thais love a good complaining session.

[osiboy]

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

christian ethics are so just? let us look at the current scandal in the uk with the press or perhaps nixon and watergate a financial system that looked away whilst banks got round bad debt by selling it off...

corruption or cover up?

Don't see what that has to do with western morals which condemn this behavior. These are just more examples of corruption which of course occurs everywhere in the world. The question, especially in relation to the article, is how prevalent is it in any one country, and what view does society have of it? The article makes it clear that a majority of Thais don't mind corruption because they themselves are corrupt.

spot on dumbfarang,....well played sir !,....... to me being honest is'nt " thai bashing" i just hope someone is taking notice !

[Johpa]

There was an identical poll taken by an academic some 20 years ago that generated the exact same results. That being said, I see only a difference in quality of corruption, and not in quantity of corruption, between Thailand and my home country the US, where corporations are given, under a very dubious legal reasoning, the same legal status as individuals. In the US the quality of corruption is much higher as the corruption is hidden under the smoke and mirrors of lawyers, accountants, and politicians. Ordinary people are not allowed to participate in the game. I will take the Thai mode of corruption over the US mode any day, and that is one reason why I look forward to retirement in Thailand and not in the rapidly declining USA.

[maidu]

If you asked Thais, "What specific harm does corruption cause on a country?" - most would have nothing more than a vague answer. Something like, "corruption is bad because it makes bad people rich."

A deeper look, or course, shows corruption is bad for a country in many specific ways.

Even if Thais could fathom the specific ways in which corruption is bad, they would still tolerate it - if it benefited them personally, or their family/friends/ or super rich politician who continually promises riches for them.

[GM1955]

Even if Thais could fathom the specific ways in which corruption is bad, they would still tolerate it - if it benefited them personally, or their family/friends/ or super rich politician who continually promises riches for them.

And of course, Farangs are different.

Edited July 23, 2011 by GM1955

[slapout]

Even if Thais could fathom the specific ways in which corruption is bad, they would still tolerate it - if it benefited them personally, or their family/friends/ or super rich politician who continually promises riches for them.

And of course, Farangs are different.

Not all farang nor Thais are different thinking, but those who are, stand out due to their condemnation of such self centered thinking.

[GM1955]

Even if Thais could fathom the specific ways in which corruption is bad, they would still tolerate it - if it benefited them personally, or their family/friends/ or super rich politician who continually promises riches for them.

And of course, Farangs are different.

Not all farang nor Thais are different thinking, but those who are, stand out due to their condemnation of such self centered thinking.

I'm sure if enough Farangs banded together to protest the corruption in Thailand by waving banners and going on hunger strikes it would make the national and international news.

Judging by the high moral stance of so many posters here, ThaiVisa may be a good recruiting ground for volunteers.

[a51mas]

Even if Thais could fathom the specific ways in which corruption is bad, they would still tolerate it - if it benefited them personally, or their family/friends/ or super rich politician who continually promises riches for them.

And of course, Farangs are different.

Not all farang nor Thais are different thinking, but those who are, stand out due to their condemnation of such self centered thinking.

I'm sure if enough Farangs banded together to protest the corruption in Thailand by waving banners and going on hunger strikes it would make the national and international news.

Judging by the high moral stance of so many posters here, ThaiVisa may be a good recruiting ground for volunteers.

Farang's governments are as corrupt as any and probably much more, but we don't hear about it because they are hidden better. When farang's corruptions are expose they are usually big and stink to high heaven.

[rreddin]

Even if Thais could fathom the specific ways in which corruption is bad, they would still tolerate it - if it benefited them personally, or their family/friends/ or super rich politician who continually promises riches for them.

And of course, Farangs are different.

Not all farang nor Thais are different thinking, but those who are, stand out due to their condemnation of such self centered thinking.

I'm sure if enough Farangs banded together to protest the corruption in Thailand by waving banners and going on hunger strikes it would make the national and international news.

Judging by the high moral stance of so many posters here, ThaiVisa may be a good recruiting ground for volunteers.

To rid Thailand of what we call "corruption" and Thais often call sin nam jai (gift of goodwill) will require a major cultural change affecting every aspect of Thai society. A few farangs parading round Siam Plaza with placards and threatening to go on hunger strike would achieve nothing other than confirming they are a bunch of nutters. Even if there is enough demand from Thais to make the necessary changes, the OP makes it clear that that is unlikely, I doubt that any current members of this forum will live long enough to see it happen - maybe in our grand-children's lifetime.