Discussion At Immigration Today

[StreetCowboy]

You have completely and utterly misunderstood. That does not imply race is an issue in the slightest.

The meaning seemed clear to me: you're either "born" English or you're not. You cannot become English via naturalization.

What did it mean to you?

Yes you can. According to the IRB, it takes three years, I think.

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/0/060924gfirbregulation8_883.pdf

SC

[Richard4849]

You have completely and utterly misunderstood. That does not imply race is an issue in the slightest.

The meaning seemed clear to me: you're either "born" English or you're not. You cannot become English via naturalization.

What did it mean to you?

You can become a naturalized British citizen. The 'English' thing is a technicality because there is no "English passport'. Drop the race thing because you are so barking up the wrong tree.

I've tried to explain it to you in another post. Read it and at least try to absorb it, I'm trying to be patient and explain so you could at least try to understand.

I'm doing my best, you are not explaining things very well.

Perhaps you can describe then, what makes someone an English national? Is it anyone holding a UK passport born within England? Or any UK citizen -- including immigrants of all colors -- who lives within England? Or anyone who has lived there for a certain amount of time? Does a person born to Scottlish parents ever become English, even if he was born in London and lived there all his life?

If you are talking about a nationality, rather than a cultural identity, a people, an ethnicity, there should be very clear answers.

[Mosha]

Oddly when my wife's friends ask where I'm from, I butt in and say "Angkrit" They always say "Ah Englit" never "Britit"

Edited July 29, 2011 by Mosha

[Moonrakers]

You have completely and utterly misunderstood. That does not imply race is an issue in the slightest.

The meaning seemed clear to me: you're either "born" English or you're not. You cannot become English via naturalization.

What did it mean to you?

You can become a naturalized British citizen. The 'English' thing is a technicality because there is no "English passport'. Drop the race thing because you are so barking up the wrong tree.

I've tried to explain it to you in another post. Read it and at least try to absorb it, I'm trying to be patient and explain so you could at least try to understand.

I'm doing my best, you are not explaining things very well.

Perhaps you can describe then, what makes someone an English national? Is it anyone holding a UK passport born within England? Or any UK citizen -- including immigrants of all colors -- who lives within England? Or anyone who has lived there for a certain amount of time? Does a person born to Scottlish parents ever become English, even if he was born in London and lived there all his life?

If you are talking about a nationality, rather than a cultural identity, a people, an ethnicity, there should be very clear answers.

It's ALL of those things. But most definitely nothing to do with race or creed.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Moonrakers

[StreetCowboy]

You have completely and utterly misunderstood. That does not imply race is an issue in the slightest.

The meaning seemed clear to me: you're either "born" English or you're not. You cannot become English via naturalization.

What did it mean to you?

You can become a naturalized British citizen. The 'English' thing is a technicality because there is no "English passport'. Drop the race thing because you are so barking up the wrong tree.

I've tried to explain it to you in another post. Read it and at least try to absorb it, I'm trying to be patient and explain so you could at least try to understand.

I'm doing my best, you are not explaining things very well.

Perhaps you can describe then, what makes someone an English national? Is it anyone holding a UK passport born within England? Or any UK citizen -- including immigrants of all colors -- who lives within England? Or anyone who has lived there for a certain amount of time? Does a person born to Scottlish parents ever become English, even if he was born in London and lived there all his life?

If you are talking about a nationality, rather than a cultural identity, a people, an ethnicity, there should be very clear answers.

Each organisation generally makes its own rules for such things. The British government has specified rules under which it will issue a passport to people, and afford them consular protection. The British government makes no differentiation between Scots, Irish or English who hold British passports.

The IRB, which governs the international activities of the English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish rugby teams (amongst others), has set down quite clear rules on how one may become English or Scottish, for their purposes. Note that the IRB's view on how one may become Thai differs from that of the Thai government, and so it is credible that one could, for example, hold a passport from a country yet be ineligible to play for its rugby team; the most obvious cause of this might be having played previously for another country's senior team, though it is credible that one could be a citizen of a country in which none of your parents or grandparents were born, and where you yourself did not live.

SC

[David006]

OK, if England is a country, why is it not possible for an immigrant born there to ever be correctly called "English" in your estimation? You are describing an ethnicity, a people, a bloodline -- not a nationality.

Nobody said that.

So where does that leave HMQE2...product of German and Danish bloodlines ...... poor lass.

.....guess it coulda been even worse.. "French" ( Rowan Atkinson)

Not to mention Phil the Greek.

bugger me... is Edinburgh in Greece..? no wonder we won't mention it...

[Orac]

Since there is no legal definition then I would assume being English will depend on a subjective view of the observer or observed which i am sure will vary significantly depending on the person.

The large village in England where i lived for 30 years i was viewed by most there as an outsider as I wasn't born there and my family moved there when I was 10.

One of the biggest qualifiers must surely be being born in England though there will be a number of other circumstances, such as born overseas to an English parent/parents, but there would also need to be linked in some element of residence. Examples might be my daughter who has never visited England but has me as a parent - I wouldn't consider her English as she was born in Thailand and lives there. Similarly Abhisit was born in England but I would never consider him as English.

I would not have a problem with anyone calling themselves English if they were born there and/or spent a very significant portion of their life there though there are obviously others who take a different point of view.

[Moonrakers]

I could not become Scottish even if I wanted to, and my Grandfather was Scottish.

[endure]

Why split hairs. You're all a bunch of pikeys anyway.

It's hard to refute that comment

Actually its not hard to refute ignorant comments,and silly point scoring,

although I know what you are refering to,in your wisdom the word "Pikeys" is not in any Dictionary that I know of,

so please explain the word for all of us to see,and by all means quote a Dictionary reference.

Must try harder. Pikey is in the dictionary and has it's origins in the mid-19C.

In the 16th according to Wiki

"16th Century

The term pikey as a pejorative appears to be a very old English word, remaining near unchanged, probably in common use during William Shakespeare's lifetime. The text Gypsy Politics and Social Change notes Boorde's 1547 reference:

Egipcions be swarte and doth go disgsy'd in theyr apparel, contrary to other nacyons: they be lyght fyngered, and use pyking.[5]

Gypsies are swarthy and go disguised in their apparel, contrary to other nations: they are light-fingered and use piking.

The term is strongly associated with itinerant life and constant travel: pikey is directly derived from pike which, circa 1520, meant to "go away from, to go on" and related to the words turnpike (toll-road) and pike-man (toll-collector) [6]"

[endure]

Even Briton has been hijacked and includes anyone born on that sacred isle. Many times I've clicked on headlines such as " Briton fighting for the Taliban." Or some such negative headline. You read the article and it's someone who has family on the India Sub-contiment

Citizen of the Republic of Yorkshire. - Definintely

You can tell a Yorkshireman - but not much

[StreetCowboy]

Even Briton has been hijacked and includes anyone born on that sacred isle. Many times I've clicked on headlines such as " Briton fighting for the Taliban." Or some such negative headline. You read the article and it's someone who has family on the India Sub-contiment

Citizen of the Republic of Yorkshire. - Definintely

You can tell a Yorkshireman - but not much

Al he knowsis rosis

SC

[7by7]

Perhaps you can describe then, what makes someone an English national?

Strictly speaking, nothing. There is legally no such thing as English nationality.

Even though England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are referred to as 'the Home Nations' they are not, legally, nations but 2 kingdoms (England and Scotland) a principality (Wales) and a province (Northern Ireland) combined to form one nation; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; whose nationals hold what is, for brevity and convenience, called British nationality and, if they so desire, a British passport.

Over the centuries Britain has received many immigrants, firstly from Europe and then worldwide; especially over the last 60 years or so from the New Commonwealth. These people have assimilated, mostly, and they and their descendent's consider themselves British and are proud to be so (witness the number of black and brown faces whenever film of British soldiers appears on the TV news).

Whether they also consider themselves English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh depends on where they live and were born and their own personal preference.

I have read, for example, that both Colin Jackson and Shirley Bassey are fiercely proud to be Welsh.

To many it doesn't matter. I know many people who are proud to be British yet are currently supporting India at Trent Bridge! (What a day, thank God for Broad and Swann, and kudos to Jimmy for a first ball wicket!) However, when the World Cup qualifiers start again, they will be wearing an England shirt and waving the cross of St. George.

I guess that you have to be British to understand this.

[smokie36]

I could not become Scottish even if I wanted to, and my Grandfather was Scottish.

We don't hold it against you. After all we are all British....this is a fool's paradise this thread....driven by feelings I thought left in the council estates and tabloid newspapers.

Hardly befitting the globalised internet generation.

[Moonrakers]

Sorry 7by7 but Wales IS a Country

There is a part (not all) of Wales that is a Principality, but Wales in its entirety IS a nation in its own right.

I must be very confusing to others if us Brits can't quite agree on it.

[smokie36]

Perhaps you can describe then, what makes someone an English national?

Strictly speaking, nothing. There is legally no such thing as English nationality.

Even though England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are referred to as 'the Home Nations' they are not, legally, nations but 2 kingdoms (England and Scotland) a principality (Wales) and a province (Northern Ireland) combined to form one nation; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; whose nationals hold what is, for brevity and convenience, called British nationality and, if they so desire, a British passport.

Over the centuries Britain has received many immigrants, firstly from Europe and then worldwide; especially over the last 60 years or so from the New Commonwealth. These people have assimilated, mostly, and they and their descendent's consider themselves British and are proud to be so (witness the number of black and brown faces whenever film of British soldiers appears on the TV news).

Whether they also consider themselves English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh depends on where they live and were born and their own personal preference.

I have read, for example, that both Colin Jackson and Shirley Bassey are fiercely proud to be Welsh.

To many it doesn't matter. I know many people who are proud to be British yet are currently supporting India at Trent Bridge! (What a day, thank God for Broad and Swann, and kudos to Jimmy for a first ball wicket!) However, when the World Cup qualifiers start again, they will be wearing an England shirt and waving the cross of St. George.

I guess that you have to be British to understand this.

I am Scottish and love India....yet I hope England win the series 4-0. Why you ask?

Its cricket old chap!

[7by7]

I am Scottish

Then you must love the line in Oh What a Lovely War.

It's the unofficial 1914 Christmas truce in no man's land. German and British troops are playing football when shells start flying overhead.

German Soldier; Those are your guns!

Scottish Soldier: It's nae us; it's the bastard English.

(2-0 or 3-1 will do, as that means we'll replace India at the top of the rankings.)

[Moonrakers]

Is it only the English who call 'home' Blighty?

[smokie36]

I am Scottish

Then you must love the line in Oh What a Lovely War.

It's the unofficial 1914 Christmas truce in no man's land. German and British troops are playing football when shells start flying overhead.

German Soldier; Those are your guns!

Scottish Soldier: It's nae us; it's the bastard English.

(2-0 or 3-1 will do, as that means we'll replace India at the top of the rankings.)

I'm just looking forward to ribbing the Aussies for the foreseeable.....complicated this business isn't it?

Thanks for the film reference...yeah its a great line!

[smokie36]

Is it only the English who call 'home' Blighty?

No.Not in that context.

[7by7]

Sorry 7by7 but Wales IS a Country

There is a part (not all) of Wales that is a Principality, but Wales in its entirety IS a nation in its own right.

I must be very confusing to others if us Brits can't quite agree on it.

Didn't say that Wales, nor any of the other three, are not countries; I said that they were not, legally, nations.

Ethnically and emotionally, yes. But not recognised as such by the UN or in international law.

[Moonrakers]

Forget to say in my stuttering efforts that 7by7 summed it up pretty well.

A good answer to a difficult question

[smokie36]

All of the home nations have freedom of expression....regional government where its wanted and a sense of their own identity. Really its as good as its been in my lifetime.

I'm happy with the status quo. If this means I have to call myself British on an immigration card in order to make life easier for these officers around the world then its a small price to pay.

[Zammo]

I'm no Pickey, I'm a Didicoy, an "English" one at that.......

d'ya like dags?

[Mossfinn]

No wonder people are confused, this Province which is part of the UK, is also part of the Republic of Ireland, which is not part of the UK and when you consider that Ireland is part of the British Isles and not an integral part of Great Britain, crickey Good Luck in sorting that out.

[smokie36]

No wonder people are confused, this Province which is part of the UK, is also part of the Republic of Ireland, which is not part of the UK and when you consider that Ireland is part of the British Isles and not an integral part of Great Britain, crickey Good Luck in sorting that out.

Yes there's a lot of confusion from the politicized. Lovely unblemished folk though from my experience....not confused at all!

[endure]

If you understand this you may very well be English. Welcome!

[eyebee]

No wonder people are confused, this Province which is part of the UK, is also part of the Republic of Ireland, which is not part of the UK and when you consider that Ireland is part of the British Isles and not an integral part of Great Britain, crickey Good Luck in sorting that out.

The terminology of the UK, Great Britain, England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Itreland etc. is confusing. But I think the following Wikipedia article sums it up quite well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_British_Isles

[a99az]

Like me, you are an Englishman who comes from Britain. OK na.

[7by7]

No wonder people are confused, this Province which is part of the UK, is also part of the Republic of Ireland, which is not part of the UK and when you consider that Ireland is part of the British Isles and not an integral part of Great Britain, crickey Good Luck in sorting that out.

The Republic may lay claim to Northern Ireland, but it is not part of the Republic. At the moment it is politically and legally part of the UK, and will hopefully remain so until and unless the majority of it's population wish otherwise.

Geographically, both NI and the RoI are parts of the island of Ireland; but that does not mean that NI is part of the RoI.

Great Britain is an island, not a political entity.

The island of Ireland and the island of Great Britain are geographically both part of the British Isles; as are the Isle of Man, the Inner and Outer Hebrides, the Orkneys, the Scilly Isles etc.

Edit:-

Just read eyebee's link, which explains it in more detail and much better than I.

[clinique]

Scottish by birth and proud of it. And anyone who asks will be answered with "Scottish" - except;

A British national by politicisation , carry a British passport , and have no problem with immigration forms by writing British.

Learned a long time ago that creating a "storm in a teacup" with immigration officers (anywhere) normally is not wise.