Thai Dog Whisperer

[Richard4849]

I have a problem pooch.

Can anyone recommend a Thai version of the Dog Whisperer?

[F1fanatic]

No. You need to ask the question on your local forum.

[Dag]

shhhhh.......

[Richard4849]

No. You need to ask the question on your local forum.

I don't care where the person is located -- if they're good, I'll bring them to where my problem pup is.

[Semper]

No. You need to ask the question on your local forum.

I don't care where the person is located -- if they're good, I'll bring them to where my problem pup is.

What's the problem with your pup?

[Dag]

I just taught my 2 month old pup to sit, lay down when told, walk behind or beside me and sit whenever I stop, stay when told and not move until I call her, shake hands and fetch and return a stick.....

Maybe I could help.....I speak softly also.

if I am not of use....i know a Thai that was arrested for whispering things to dogs and then taking them inside his house.

[Richard4849]

Jealous, territorial, aggressive, attacking other dogs and nipping at people.

[mightyharriss]

Jealous, territorial, aggressive, attacking other dogs and nipping at people.

what breed matey?

[Richard4849]

You won't be surprised by my answer: Bang Kaew.

MODERATOR: I just noticed there is a Plants, Pets, and Vets Forum; please feel free to move this thread over there. Thank you.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Crossy
Moved just for you :)

[james24]

Its alll about domination, there are quite a few vids on youtube about this. Just watch them

[mightyharriss]

How does he/she do exercise wise... Does it have good long walks.. do you have a pool?

Walking helps more than you would know as dogs become aggressive out of frustration and dominance. The walk gives them structure and exercise at the same time.

Hyperactivity is a problem with many possible causes and solutions. Here are some simple techniques you can try at home to work to calm your boisterous dog:

• Ignore the behavior! Dogs seek attention from you. By paying them that attention during hyperactive outbursts, you’re reinforcing the very behavior that you're trying to eliminate. The next time your dog is jumping or nipping at you in an overexcited way, give it a try -- no touch, no talk, no eye contact -- and see how you fare. You might be surprised how quickly the dog settles down.
• Give your dog a job! Having a task to focus on can help tremendously. Hyperactivity can come from psychological needs as easily as it can from physical needs. By giving your dog a job to do, you are removing him from his state of hyperactivity and redirecting his energy elsewhere. The task should have a clear beginning and end, and should never be considered a replacement for physical exercise. Which brings us to…
  
• Go for a walk! If your dog has a lot of built-up energy, a really vigorous walk is another excellent way to redirect it where YOU want it to go. Once you’ve burned that extra energy away, your dog should be pleasantly exhausted and too tuckered out to jump and nip. Without that frustration, he’ll find it much easier to relax.
  
• Check your own energy! Your dog is your mirror. Any energy you project, he will reflect back. Are you in a calm assertive state of mind? Are you projecting a confident energy? Are you stressing out over an argument, or burdened with the worries of the work week? Nervous or anxious moods can translate into nervous or anxious body language or tones of voice, and can affect the energy of your dog.
  
• Try out aromatherapy! Don’t forget that dogs experience the world primarily by scent! Just as the smell of lavender is said to relax human beings, a soothing smell can also have a very calming effect on your pet. Talk to your vet or consult a holistic professional to find out what smells may work for your dog and which dispersal methods are the safest for him.

[harrry]

You may find Nienke in Chiang Mai able to help. She is a sponsor here.

[mightyharriss]

good shout Harry.

Also browse this website http://www.thaibangkaewshowcase.com/ breeders all over the place that may be able to help also

[BuffaloRescue]

Dont try to train a pup until its at least 8 months old

[LeCharivari]

Without considerably more details about the dog (sex, age, daily routine, living conditions, etc) and about you (experience with dogs, experience with this breed, lifestyle, time spent / available for the dog, other dogs, family, children, other pets, etc) any advice given here has to be so general that it is next to useless, however well meant it may be.

Without knowing what the problem is, and what caused it, its simply impossible to give any advice and any advice given may be wrong if it doesn't apply to your particular situation.

Usually, but not always, the problem is the owner, not the dog, BUT there are some genuine "problem dogs" just as there are some problem people, and (in my view) anyone who says that there aren't is best ignored.

"Dont try to train a pup until its at least 8 months old"

Dog training starts the day you get your dog and inter-act with it, and continues every time the dog sees you (or doesn't see you) even if you don't realise the effect of what you are doing on your dog.

[Richard4849]

Thanks everyone for the kind suggestions.

The dog is a male, one year old.

The property is 5 rai, and is not fenced, so he has considerable room to run.

We have three other dogs, not Bang Kaew, and the problem is largely when someone starts to give attention (or especially food) to one of the others. BK dog goes nuts, attacking the other dogs and nipping at people.

Unfortunately, this is a holiday home so we are not there all the time -- there is a gardener who looks after the dogs when we are not there.

We have now stopped giving food to any of them other than at their meal time, but BK dog still gets crazy when people are eating, or if they try to pet one of the others.

He is perfectly fine when no other dogs and no food is around.

[Cuban]

A year old means that he is set in he ways so it will take time and effort on your part to re-educate him. Also the other humans that will be teaching him will need to follow the training rules. IME this can be your most difficult task. Dogs with listen to instruction (generally) Thais will not.

Any dog training needs to be calm, considered and consistent. (EVERY TIME)

The first question I thought when reading this thread was where did the dog come from, puppy farm? If it was taken from the litter too soon it would have missed an important stage in development that often results in aggression to other dogs/people etc.

Not impossible to teach a one year old but you will need lots of time and dog control, walks on a lead. Restricted access to food and affection. If you are not there and a trainer comes and trains do you really think that that will cure the dog like mending a broken TV set???

Training a dog is partly about the dog but mostly about the humans that are the family/pack leaders.

When you describe 5 Rai with the dogs having free rein to do as they please, I see your BK as the pack leader seeking to enforce his control wishes on the pack. As pack leader he seeks to have the first refusal at food and the most affection. As he can not achieve control over stupid humans (because they do not follow him as pack leader) he attempts to correct them the only way he knows how, first will be a lip curl, then step up to a low growl, then bark and finally nipping. People just see nipping because they are not watching the early stages. They might see it but they do not register the meaning.

Without a motivated person there that will be the pack leader long term you are liable to pay a "trainer" a fee to train the dog to accept the trainer as the pack leader while they are there. When no longer present, if no other human takes Considered, Clam & Consistent control the BK will promote himself to pack leader again.

Without being there IMHO you are wasting your time/money.

[bina]

read up some of the bangkew threads but in short:

the dog has tons of territory and has no limits; you, the owners and therefore the 'should be' main man , are not around for staking the territory and limiting your teenage bangkew; and he is a male reaching his puberty;

although bangkews need a slightly different type of handling/training than the usual lab or shepherd, the short of it is: u have let a unruly teenage independant, territorial male of a guarding type breed with 'primitive' behaviors highly developed -- run loose. and he is taking full advantage.

bangkews were not bred as a 'human pleasing' breed like many working and housepet breeds , making them (labs, poodles, spaniels) a joy to train. bangkews, like other 'primitive' breeds, are the same as they started out as, many many many years ago: full canine behavior not suited for part time ownership, with no 'head man/woman', and therefore he is doing what he does best: guarding his area. area meaning food/attention/land...

nienke, and some others here can give u valuable advice but unless u are around to carry it out, 100% of the time, u are wasting your time and leaving a ticking bomb running loose. when he hits two or three years old fully mature adult male u will have a major problem on your (gardner's ) hands.

you might reconsider if you need/want him. do u need a yard guard? is he meant to be a pet? would he be better off with a full time owner who does need/want a bangkew?

bina

btw, non appropriate and nasty remark removed. useful and knowlegable information welcome : there is more then one way to train a dog , and there are several trainers here responding. all methods that are reasonable are acceptable. shooting the dog, is not.

[bangkaew]

Jealous, territorial, aggressive, attacking other dogs and nipping at people.

that sounds like how my bangkaew mix used to be like. From 11 months. Very fear aggressive. We then started exercising him so that he was like the most docile dog after. As well as that, implemented strict rules boundaries and limitations. Must wait to be invited out of the door/on to the furniture etc. No jumping up, eat only after every one else has, basically insist he shows ALL humans the upmost respect. Try introducing him to a friends dog, hold his rear to the dog and then let your dog smell the dogs rear. Obviously you and the friend must be in full control of the dogs. That way he can actually get to know and trust a dog because right now he is never getting to know any dogs.

Hope this helps!

• Give your dog a job! Having a task to focus on can help tremendously. Hyperactivity can come from psychological needs as easily as it can from physical needs. By giving your dog a job to do, you are removing him from his state of hyperactivity and redirecting his energy elsewhere. The task should have a clear beginning and end, and should never be considered a replacement for physical exercise. Which brings us to…

The gardener, if you are not there, has to be willing, I am sure if you paid him, to see the BK as his. He has got to take him somewhere where the BK can run along with him on a motorbike. That is a Job for the dog. Having a 500 rai yard is no good. He has to be exercised!

Edited August 5, 2011 by bangkaew

[LeCharivari]

read up some of the bangkew threads but in short:

the dog has tons of territory and has no limits; you...are not around... u have let a unruly teenage independant, territorial male of a guarding type breed with 'primitive' behaviors highly developed -- run loose. and he is taking full advantage.

.... he is doing what he does best: guarding his area. area meaning food/attention/land...

.... unless u are around to carry it out, 100% of the time, u are wasting your time and leaving a ticking bomb running loose. when he hits two or three years old fully mature adult male u will have a major problem on your (gardner's ) hands.

Ditto, DITTO, DITTO.

This does not sound like a "problem pooch" at all - just a bangkaew doing exactly what his breed have been bred to do for centuries and exactly what he will revert to doing if you waste your time and money getting him "trained" as soon as he is no longer under the trainer's supervision.

If things continue as they are, trained or not, they can only get worse: he is allowed to run loose on land which is "not fenced", with the only thing keeping him there being his meals. Sooner or later he will decides to test his freedom and he may take a dislike to a neigbour's pets, livestock or young children - for which you will be directly responsible. There is no excuse for letting a dog run wild.

Even if the gardener is willing "to see the BK as his" that doesn't solve your problem: either the dog is his or its yours. It can't be both and a bangkaew is very unlikely to show loyalty to both of you - if the gardener can train the dog successfully (and judging by present performance he can't) the dog will be loyal to him, and you and your family will be the intruders.

... you might reconsider if you need/want him. do u need a yard guard? is he meant to be a pet? would he be better off with a full time owner who does need/want a bangkew?

bina

Sorry, bina, but I'd put it more strongly. You MUST reconsider if you need/want him. He will never be a reliable guard dog if he is allowed to run loose, uncontrolled and unfenced; he will never be a family pet if the family is not there. At one year old he is still young enough for someone who knows and likes this breed to be able to train him successfuly and to make him either a reliable guard dog or a family pet . You can't. Do what is best for you and your dog, admit it, and find someone who can before you, your family, your neighbours or your dog get hurt.

[camu]

I have sent you a message to email me regarding your need for a 'dog whisperer'

Please check you email and get back with me,

Camu

[bangkaew]

If things continue as they are, trained or not, they can only get worse: he is allowed to run loose on land which is "not fenced", with the only thing keeping him there being his meals. Sooner or later he will decides to test his freedom and he may take a dislike to a neigbour's pets, livestock or young children - for which you will be directly responsible. There is no excuse for letting a dog run wild.

You obviously are not aware that 99% of dogs in Thailand are free to 'run wild'.

Even if the gardener is willing "to see the BK as his" that doesn't solve your problem: either the dog is his or its yours. It can't be both and a bangkaew is very unlikely to show loyalty to both of you - if the gardener can train the dog successfully (and judging by present performance he can't) the dog will be loyal to him, and you and your family will be the intruders.

What nonsense, a dog, even a bangkaew, can have a large family who come and go who they are loyal to. A dog can remember the scent of 100s of people and even if the family in question went away for 5 years, the dog would remember them. It might take a day or two to get the relationship right back to where it was, but after that there should be no problem. That is assuming the dog is currently affectionate and loyal to the family!

[harrry]

If things continue as they are, trained or not, they can only get worse: he is allowed to run loose on land which is "not fenced", with the only thing keeping him there being his meals. Sooner or later he will decides to test his freedom and he may take a dislike to a neigbour's pets, livestock or young children - for which you will be directly responsible. There is no excuse for letting a dog run wild.

You obviously are not aware that 99% of dogs in Thailand are free to 'run wild'.

Even if the gardener is willing "to see the BK as his" that doesn't solve your problem: either the dog is his or its yours. It can't be both and a bangkaew is very unlikely to show loyalty to both of you - if the gardener can train the dog successfully (and judging by present performance he can't) the dog will be loyal to him, and you and your family will be the intruders.

What nonsense, a dog, even a bangkaew, can have a large family who come and go who they are loyal to. A dog can remember the scent of 100s of people and even if the family in question went away for 5 years, the dog would remember them. It might take a day or two to get the relationship right back to where it was, but after that there should be no problem. That is assuming the dog is currently affectionate and loyal to the family!

I would support that. The two that live with our family and us certainly remember people. THey are always friendly and so not bark to advise that anyone that they have seen welcomed by us comes. This is even if the people were workmen who renovated our house.

[bina]

dogs remember how they behave with each family member; but that is not the point. the point is is that while the owners are away, there is a person who is left in charge that might not really work with the dog... its the 'soldier buys a rottweiler and the mother is left taking care of it' sydrome we have here. lots of young guys like to buy big working type dogs. then they go to the army and the parents /siblings are left with the caretaking. and often the rest of the family isnt keen on the dog, or cant or wont work with it, or the breed doesnt fit the rest of the family's lifestyle, and then u ahve an unruly dog. one of the reasons i never sold my (r/i/p) boxer's pups to under 23 year olds. al those single young guys wanting boxers and then going to army and not around to be iwth the dog...

the point being, the dog can be a great dog, the fact is he will be a great dog if both the gardner or whom ever else there will work and 'be there' for the dog while u arent around.

bina

[LeCharivari]

You obviously are not aware that 99% of dogs in Thailand are free to 'run wild'.

I was not aware of the exact figure, but I am well aware that the majority of dogs are free to run loose - just as I am aware of the dogs that I see run over on the road every week, the dogs with curable diseases and injuries from mange to broken bones who never get taken to a vet, the packs of semi-feral dogs in many areas that are a menace to other dogs and to people alike, and the children who have to have rabies injections because they have been bitten by them. I don't see any of that as either excusable or necessary - just my opinion, but I don't see something as justifiable just because others do it.

Even if the gardener is willing "to see the BK as his" that doesn't solve your problem: either the dog is his or its yours. It can't be both and a bangkaew is very unlikely to show loyalty to both of you - if the gardener can train the dog successfully (and judging by present performance he can't) the dog will be loyal to him, and you and your family will be the intruders.

What nonsense, a dog, even a bangkaew, can have a large family who come and go who they are loyal to. A dog can remember the scent of 100s of people and even if the family in question went away for 5 years, the dog would remember them. It might take a day or two to get the relationship right back to where it was, but after that there should be no problem. That is assuming the dog is currently affectionate and loyal to the family!

What "can" happen and what is happening are two totally different things. Of course a dog can "remember" people and can accept them (as with Harrry's workmen) or show affection to them with friends and family if consistently trained to do so. That clearly is not going to happen here - the gardener is evidently not capable of training the dog properly or he would have done so already (at least to a certain extent so that he doesn't get bitten) and the owner and his family are not there. Any training by some outside "dog whisperer" will last as long as this dog is in training and once it ends after "a day or two" everything will indeed be "right back to where it was"!

[Nienke]

Any training by some outside "dog whisperer" will last as long as this dog is in training and once it ends after "a day or two" everything will indeed be "right back to where it was"!

Amen to this.

Of course a dog can "remember" people and can accept them (as with Harrry's workmen) or show affection to them with friends and family if consistently trained to do so. That clearly is not going to happen here - the gardener is evidently not capable of training the dog properly or he would have done so already (at least to a certain extent so that he doesn't get bitten) and the owner and his family are not there.

But here you are speculating.

People (anywhere, not only Thailand) who are asking the services of a dog behaviorist often lack the knowledge on how to guide their dog into good behavior. If they knew and acted accordingly they wouldn't need help.

If this gardener (I focus on the gardener as obviously he is the prime care-giver of the dog) is not capable to train or modify the behavior of the Ban Keaw once he receives the know-how and guidelines on how to do, we do not know (yet).

(of course, you are right in saying that until now the gardener has not been capable in properly training the dog)

[LeCharivari]

..... the gardener is evidently not capable of training the dog properly or he would have done so already (at least to a certain extent so that he doesn't get bitten) and the owner and his family are not there.

But here you are speculating.

People (anywhere, not only Thailand) who are asking the services of a dog behaviorist often lack the knowledge on how to guide their dog into good behavior. If they knew and acted accordingly they wouldn't need help.

If this gardener (I focus on the gardener as obviously he is the prime care-giver of the dog) is not capable to train or modify the behavior of the Ban Keaw once he receives the know-how and guidelines on how to do, we do not know (yet).

(of course, you are right in saying that until now the gardener has not been capable in properly training the dog)

Actually, Nienke, we seem to be in agreement - I said "the gardener is evidently not capable of training the dog properly" and you said "until now the gardener has not been capable in properly training the dog". To me that is six of one and half a dozen of the other!

Training the gardener to train the dog is of course an option, as most people are perfectly capable of learning how to handle dogs successfully if they have the motivation and the opportunity to learn. Ideally all it needs is a local club run by a dog trainer that he and the dog could attend for a few months (with the 5 rai being fenced in the interim) and a vehicle to transport the dog (if he doesn't have one already) to their weekly training sessions, but as far as I am aware there are very few of these in Thailand. Alternatively he and the dog could attend a full-time dog handling course somewhere with someone else doing the gardening and taking care of the other dogs while he is away - I know of a few places where this is available (K9, the VDHA (Thailand), SKC and CPS, for example).

Edited August 8, 2011 by LeCharivari

[Nienke]

Training the gardener to train the dog is of course an option, as most people are perfectly capable of learning how to handle dogs successfully if they have the motivation and the opportunity to learn. Ideally all it needs is a local club run by a dog trainer that he and the dog could attend for a few months (with the 5 rai being fenced in the interim) and a vehicle to transport the dog (if he doesn't have one already) to their weekly training sessions, but as far as I am aware there are very few of these in Thailand. Alternatively he and the dog could attend a full-time dog handling course somewhere with someone else doing the gardening and taking care of the other dogs while he is away - I know of a few places where this is available (K9, the VDHA (Thailand), SKC and CPS, for example).

The problem the OP mentioned is a behavioral problem.

The focus should be on the interaction between the people and the dogs, and on the behaviors the owners want to see in their dog (not on the behaviors the owners do not want to see in their dog). Therefore, as this dog already is showing aggression at certain times, and for safety concerns, the training technique used should be positive reinforcement, IMO.

Further, both owners and gardener should learn about behavioral development, how dogs communicate and interact, how this 'mis'behavior of the BK has developed, and how to change this.

Just an obedience course, where the owner learns how to make a dog sit/down/stay/come can help but most probably will not solve the problem.

I do not have any experience with the training schools you mentioned, so can't say anything about their knowledge on dog-behavior, -communication, and behavior modification.

And, yes, fencing off (part of) the 5 rai is definitely advisable. And, of course, if the motivation is not there or the owners and/or gardener only want a quick fix chances on a successful behavioral change in the dog will be near to nil.

[LeCharivari]

Agreed 100%, Nienke.

[LeCharivari]

The problem with the "Dog Whisperer" and similar series is that although it is great "infotainment" and his methods are very effective it gives the impression that it is quick and simple once you know the right techniques - sometimes it is (after all, most dogs want to please their owners as that is what they have been bred to do) but often it takes not just knowledge but a lot of time, hard work and perseverance and sometimes there is no ideal solution or outcome.

With one of my dogs, much to my regret, I have no option but to keep him permanently muzzled (except for once a week when all the dogs get a shampoo and his muzzle gets changed for a clean one). Its far from a perfect solution for him or us, but its the best of a number of bad options.

He is a large, black Bang-kaew who is a really super dog - for more than 90% of the time he is playful (with us and the other dogs), happy, friendly (except to strangers), affectionate, gentle and obedient; for most of the rest of the time he is moody but always obedient. Unfortunately for 1% of the time he is totally unpredictable, changing from friendly to vicious (and back again) in a second for no apparent reason and with no provocation. On one occasion, which resulted in his having to be muzzled, all our dogs were sitting at the gate when we drove back to the house, with the normal barking and tail wagging. They quietened down as usual as the gate was opened when, right in front of us and without any provocation or warning, he turned to the dog near him and tore his throat open with one bite (the dog died in my lap within 5 minutes).

He was taken from a temple in Bangkok when he was only a few weeks old by a group of bikers and was given to me when his then owner could no longer take care of him. He had been shot in the head when he was about a year old, which blinded him in one eye and some of the pellets are still lodged in his skull and under his skin.

Could he be better trained? Impossible to tell - sometimes he will go for weeks without any sign of aggression whatsoever, so it is impossible to train aggression out if he doesn't show it. He is also at his most temperamental during electrical storms which can obviously happen at any time, when we may not be there to intervene.

My point is that there is often no "quick fix" and sometimes there is no perfect solution for either the owner or the dog - all you can do under those circumstances is try to do what is best for both you and the dog.