Ms. Yingluck, Please Get Rid Of Mrs. / Miss Titling

[TigerWan]

.. Why Do Women's ?

Thai women have the choice to state they are married or not, yet they must choose whether to be a Mrs. ( presumed married ) or Miss ( presumed unmarried) Both of which are about labeling ( perceived ) sexual availability.

Men have never had to declare their marital status in their titles, like on a driver's license, it is high time women are afforded the same standard.

Mr. for male- Ms. for female. Or better yet, can't we just stop sexualizing everyone and use M. ? ( Like Khun is used? )

M. Tiger Wan

[HeavyDrinker]

Give her a chance! She has to make good on the 300B a day minimum wage promise first (among others)...

[AngelofDeath]

Are you serious? It's only a title. You can try your luck in the States. You stand a higher chance of fighting for Women's Rights.

[TigerWan]

In the States women can use Ms. Miss or Mrs. but must declare their true marital status, as do men who only have Mr. as title choice.

I was married , once, long ago in a past century , but am not any longer so I really don't want to be known as a married person, Mrs. ( never changed my name either, nor would I)

However I really am too old to be a Miss and am reluctant to use it as it isn't accurate- why is my marital status a basis for my title?

It's as sexist as it gets.

[p_brownstone]

It is rather telling that you reference these "titles" as an indication of "sexual availability" don't you think?

Patrick

[PoorSucker]

She is Ms. Yingluck although she is married, have never registered the marriage at the Amphur.

Call her Patrick, maybe you have a chance.

[HeavyDrinker]

...can of worms slowly opening....

[TigerWan]

It is rather telling that you reference these "titles" as an indication of "sexual availability" don't you think?

Patrick

Yes, it's telling of sexist cultures where women's titling is the sum of their perceived sexual availability.

It isn't just a title but indicative of how language is used to categorize women in ways men are not subject to. Sexually categorize in that it indicates if they are available, or not.

[TigerWan]

She is Ms. Yingluck although she is married, have never registered the marriage at the Amphur.

Call her Patrick, maybe you have a chance.

Actually she prefers to be Miss as that is her official title.

Why not use Ms. ? Because it isn't available . Why isn't it available ?

I bring it up as I was renewing my license and had to choose between two titles I found both to be sexist.

Women's role IS a can of worms that begs discourse.

I submit, men aren't subjected to this labelling, so can be forgiven if they think it's trivial.

[lovelomsak]

In the States women can use Ms. Miss or Mrs. but must declare their true marital status, as do men who only have Mr. as title choice.

I was married , once, long ago in a past century , but am not any longer so I really don't want to be known as a married person, Mrs. ( never changed my name either, nor would I)

However I really am too old to be a Miss and am reluctant to use it as it isn't accurate- why is my marital status a basis for my title?

It's as sexist as it gets.

Who cares what title she uses it is none of your business. This isnot America sorry. Since when do you as an observerer have the right to tell her how she wishes to be addressed. Also none of us care if you use miss, mrs, or ms. This leaves me with a question for you. How do prefer children address you? Maybe you would like to correct the use of pe and nong in Thailand also when addressing people.

[wolf5370]

As most women histoprically married (in their early teens), it was more a symbols of age a legal ability to marry (not have sex!). Men DO have such a title, "Master". Master and Mistress Whatever, would symbolise children (or those not yet of marrying age) - Mr and Mrs Whatever, would symbolise married couple (or equally brother and sister who are married). As, historically again, it was expected that gentlemen inherrit the family business, they assumed an adult status when at the age to take on emplyment - again historically, women were adults when they were married (that was their job - wife and mother). Therefore, it is NOT a sexist thing, it is (perhaps) an outdated titling system of adults and juniors based on historical expectations and generalisation (i.e. that women marry young and men either take to business - and then marry, usually a bit older). Therefore, if anything its agist, and not sexist!

A modern "get out of jail card" came along for unmarried spinsters (old maids as they were once called), divorced women and women that feel hard done by by a 1000+ year old language - "Ms". So, quel problem?

I can not really understand the requirement some people have that we should all be a homogenius soup of grey people - what is wrong with differences? If it is used as a means of descrimination, sure I see it, but "Mr" and "Mrs"? Really?

[TigerWan]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, and you're right it probably isn't so much deliberate current sexism as it is just harmless current sexism based on past sexism and noting that men have evolved from the Master / Mister titling

The fact is that men's titles have nothing to do with their marital status, whereas women's titles are based on whether they are married or not.

Ms. alleviates this but is not available in Thailand. Miss or Mrs. ONLY.

As most women histoprically married (in their early teens), it was more a symbols of age a legal ability to marry (not have sex!). Men DO have such a title, "Master". Master and Mistress Whatever, would symbolise children (or those not yet of marrying age) - Mr and Mrs Whatever, would symbolise married couple (or equally brother and sister who are married). As, historically again, it was expected that gentlemen inherrit the family business, they assumed an adult status when at the age to take on emplyment - again historically, women were adults when they were married (that was their job - wife and mother). Therefore, it is NOT a sexist thing, it is (perhaps) an outdated titling system of adults and juniors based on historical expectations and generalisation (i.e. that women marry young and men either take to business - and then marry, usually a bit older). Therefore, if anything its agist, and not sexist!

A modern "get out of jail card" came along for unmarried spinsters (old maids as they were once called), divorced women and women that feel hard done by by a 1000+ year old language - "Ms". So, quel problem?

I can not really understand the requirement some people have that we should all be a homogenius soup of grey people - what is wrong with differences? If it is used as a means of descrimination, sure I see it, but "Mr" and "Mrs"? Really?

[TigerWan]

I am complaining about the practice as it affects me directly and Ms ( Or Miss ? ) Yingluck is now in a position to change it.

Neither she or me are free to choose Ms. as it is NOT AVAILABLE in Thailand on official registries such as a driver's license.

My complaint is why is it only women who are subject to having to declare marital status in their titles?

When one sex has to abide by a set of rules that the other sex is not subject to, how it that NOT sexism?

Give us Ms. !!!

In the States women can use Ms. Miss or Mrs. but must declare their true marital status, as do men who only have Mr. as title choice.

I was married , once, long ago in a past century , but am not any longer so I really don't want to be known as a married person, Mrs. ( never changed my name either, nor would I)

However I really am too old to be a Miss and am reluctant to use it as it isn't accurate- why is my marital status a basis for my title?

It's as sexist as it gets.

Who cares what title she uses it is none of your business. This isnot America sorry. Since when do you as an observerer have the right to tell her how she wishes to be addressed. Also none of us care if you use miss, mrs, or ms. This leaves me with a question for you. How do prefer children address you? Maybe you would like to correct the use of pe and nong in Thailand also when addressing people.

[TigerWan]

Are you serious? It's only a title. You can try your luck in the States. You stand a higher chance of fighting for Women's Rights.

Lovelamsak I was responding to this ^ which is why I mention USA.

Thailand should allow women's titles to be independent of marriage - just like men.

This isnot America sorry.

[lovelomsak]

OH i got it now you are trying to change Thailand. Maybe you can go down in history to be the leader of title change in Thailand. I am sure all the members here will be so proud to say they once knew the person who lead the change in Thai titles. Not a small task for a visitor to a country I would say. But you are an american woman right and the heralders of women rights for the world am I not correct. You should have brought this up before she was elected. Because when Thailand changes to suit the new world order as you want it , they will have to go back and change all their written material about her so as not to offend future generations. But it will be all worth it because you want it so right, because you see sexism in it.

I just read your last post.

I think the reason a person is given two options married or single is because they are the only 2 options. Can you give me any others. Ms isnot a third it is a blend. There is no grey here. Also mrs or miss allows for quick distinct with paper work where marriage status is necessary to know. I am sure you can think of many things where status of the person can make a difference in cost. e.g.. insurance. Do you want to creat more work for people or stall paper work in some cases just so a person can use ms.

I think ms was created because old maids were embarassed to be called miss. They are the ones who felt it was a young persons title.

Would it not be easier to have divorced women just go back to being a miss.

[Kwasaki]

I reckon it's good for women to have a choice, it's really up to them to do something about it, if they want to, what do the ladies have to say about it.

I don't get called Mr they say something like chip whatever to me.

[TigerWan]

Lovelomsak,

Your post is hostile and confrontational.

I seek merely to equalize women's status across the globe. It seems having Thailand's first female PM is a good time to discuss it. I shall write a letter to the editor's of English language papers as I think it is an important issue. Language is very important in discerning roles and assigning status.

Your edit on post says it all- women are subject to assignation of marital status, men are not. Why aren't men forced to declare marital status with use of separate titles, say Mr. and Mirr. ? Kinda silly, eh?

Yeah, Sexism.

Males and females ticking off a marital status box on an insurance form is one thing, having your title as on your driver's license reflect your sexual availability is another - especially when only women are forced to do it.

OH i got it now you are trying to change Thailand. Maybe you can go down in history to be the leader of title change in Thailand. I am sure all the members here will be so proud to say they once knew the person who lead the change in Thai titles. Not a small task for a visitor to a country I would say. But you are an american woman right and the heralders of women rights for the world am I not correct. You should have brought this up before she was elected. Because when Thailand changes to suit the new world order as you want it , they will have to go back and change all their written material about her so as not to offend future generations. But it will be all worth it because you want it so right, because you see sexism in it.

EDIT ADDED Also mrs or miss allows for quick distinct with paper work where marriage status is necessary to know. I am sure you can think of many things where status of the person can make a difference in cost. e.g.. insurance. Do you want to creat more work for people or stall paper work in some cases just so a person can use ms.

[PoorSucker]

And why must lady boys have Mr. in their ID-cards.

[lovelomsak]

Lovelomsak,

Your post is hostile and confrontational.

I seek merely to equalize women's status across the globe. It seems having Thailand's first female PM is a good time to discuss it. I shall write a letter to the editor's of English language papers as I think it is an important issue. Language is very important in discerning roles and assigning status.

Your edit on post says it all- women are subject to assignation of marital status, men are not. Why aren't men forced to declare marital status with use of separate titles, say Mr. and Mirr. ? Kinda silly, eh?

Yeah, Sexism.

Males and females ticking off a marital status box on an insurance form is one thing, having your title as on your driver's license reflect your sexual availability is another - especially when only women are forced to do it.

OH i got it now you are trying to change Thailand. Maybe you can go down in history to be the leader of title change in Thailand. I am sure all the members here will be so proud to say they once knew the person who lead the change in Thai titles. Not a small task for a visitor to a country I would say. But you are an american woman right and the heralders of women rights for the world am I not correct. You should have brought this up before she was elected. Because when Thailand changes to suit the new world order as you want it , they will have to go back and change all their written material about her so as not to offend future generations. But it will be all worth it because you want it so right, because you see sexism in it.

EDIT ADDED Also mrs or miss allows for quick distinct with paper work where marriage status is necessary to know. I am sure you can think of many things where status of the person can make a difference in cost. e.g.. insurance. Do you want to creat more work for people or stall paper work in some cases just so a person can use ms.

My post is showing the other side since when is that confrontational? Your on a mission fill your boots. I said what i wanted to say I wasnot aware of hostility on my part but do get a feeling that you have anger issues. Conselling can help more than forums.

[TigerWan]

I reckon it's good for women to have a choice, it's really up to them to do something about it, if they want to, what do the ladies have to say about it.

I don't get called Mr they say something like chip whatever to me.

At last !! Thank you, finally.

When I was in high school, USA, yes, in the late 70's- the use of Ms. was widespread. Now it seems no one understands Ms. simply denotes female, no marital status need be revealed and I can't see why the concept is so controversial and threatening.

We are going ass- backwards on women's equality.

[TigerWan]

My post is showing the other side since when is that confrontational? Your on a mission fill your boots. I said what i wanted to say I wasnot aware of hostility on my part but do get a feeling that you have anger issues. Conselling can help more than forums.

I found little of way of discourse in your reply, nor this one. Recommending "counseling" is really just trolling and reveals a lack of argument,

I'm quite sure remarking on fellow users perceived personalities is not really a topic the forum admins wish to foster.

We agree, Mrs and Miss is all about labeling the female's marital status, no?

I simply think it is sexist to apply this standard to women only.

[lovelomsak]

Sorry to post agaian I wasnot planning on posting anymore here but just had a thought and it requires some explaining to help me out with it.

How does miss,mrs or ms show sexual availability? Sexual availibilty is a personal thing . Some married women (mrs)are available all their married lives to many men,well some single women (miss) die a virgin. Where does mrs or miss come in on personall issues?

[TigerWan]

My post is showing the other side since when is that confrontational? Your on a mission fill your boots. I said what i wanted to say I wasnot aware of hostility on my part but do get a feeling that you have anger issues. Conselling can help more than forums.

I found little of way of discourse in your reply, nor this one. Recommending "counseling" is really just trolling and reveals a lack of argument,

I'm quite sure remarking on fellow users perceived personalities is not really a topic the forum admins wish to foster.

We agree, Mrs and Miss is all about labeling the female's marital status, no?

I simply think it is sexist to apply this standard to women only.

[TigerWan]

Sorry to post agaian I wasnot planning on posting anymore here but just had a thought and it requires some explaining to help me out with it.

How does miss,mrs or ms show sexual availability? Sexual availaibilty is a personal thing . Some married women (mrs)are available all their married lives to many men,well some single women (miss) die a virgin. Where does mrs or miss come in on personall issues?

I think it is " historically " used to denote sexual availability i. e. married or single?

When a woman is introduced as Mrs, we know she is or was married. When a man is introduced as Mr, what do we glean from the title? Nothing. The title has no basis in marital status.

In Thailand, somehow I guess they thought is was liberating to allow women to choose whether they were known as married or unmarried , Mrs. or Miss but that fails to negate that is is woman only who are forced to announce marital status in their title.

Personally? I am currently not married, though was once at one time, long ago.

I am also not a young women yet to married, yet I must choose one of those two titles. Mrs. or Miss.

Really LLS, you aren't understanding any of this and how it is sexist?

[Wallaby]

I think you need a hobby.

[TigerWan]

I do! I enjoy discourse on internet forums !!

Perhaps you'll wish to defend a sexist practise or explain why it can't / mustn't be changed without resorting to personal innuendos?

I think you need a hobby.

[HeavyDrinker]

Told you!!!

"Ms" was adopted by older feminist divorcees who felt "miss" didn't befit their elder status.

It isn't an official title in many countries let alone Thailand.

Sorry Tigerwan but this does come across as a bit of a feminist rant.

Does it really matter that much what your title is?

Will it really strike a blow for feminism in Thailand?

Personally I feel that if PM Yingluck is going to address feminist issues in Thailand then there are far more important issues to address than this one.

[webfact]

a very rude post (and a correct reply to it) deleted.

Be reminded: If You cannot post in a civilized manner, don't post or you get your posting right suspended

/Admin

[TigerWan]

Told you!!!

"Ms" was adopted by older feminist divorcees who felt "miss" didn't befit their elder status.

It isn't an official title in many countries let alone Thailand.

Sorry Tigerwan but this does come across as a bit of a feminist rant.

Does it really matter that much what your title is?

Will it really strike a blow for feminism in Thailand?

Personally I feel that if PM Yingluck is going to address feminist issues in Thailand then there are far more important issues to address than this one.

Please be aware Ms. is used officially in UK US and EU ( and AUS ?)

It is also used by all English language newspapers in Thailand.

Well yes it is a feminist subject. And well, yes I am a feminist, raised by a feminist mother and interested in the subject as I find it sexist, thus objectionable, thus worthy of discussion.

But, no-half the population, being male aren't giving a dam_n. And no, maybe not too many women either, as they are I find , inculcated to the inequity of their titles, perhaps? Too busy in work, baby turds and keeping house to have time for seemingly pointless endeavors?

Nor, are there many women on this forum, yet it deserves the .. airing.

I won't harbor abuse but I am interested in the justifications of why there seems to be little in way of explanation of just how a blatantly sexist practice- is not sexist?

Or is a sexist practice, actually quite acceptable?

I have written letters off to Editors, maybe it is an issue they would want to address, also.

[kerryk]

Told you!!!

"Ms" was adopted by older feminist divorcees who felt "miss" didn't befit their elder status.

It isn't an official title in many countries let alone Thailand.

Sorry Tigerwan but this does come across as a bit of a feminist rant.

Does it really matter that much what your title is?

Will it really strike a blow for feminism in Thailand?

Personally I feel that if PM Yingluck is going to address feminist issues in Thailand then there are far more important issues to address than this one.

Please be aware Ms. is used officially in UK US and EU ( and AUS ?)

It is also used by all English language newspapers in Thailand.

Well yes it is a feminist subject. And well, yes I am a feminist, raised by a feminist mother and interested in the subject as I find it sexist, thus objectionable, thus worthy of discussion.

But, no-half the population, being male aren't giving a dam_n. And no, maybe not too many women either, as they are I find , inculcated to the inequity of their titles, perhaps? Too busy in work, baby turds and keeping house to have time for seemingly pointless endeavors?

Nor, are there many women on this forum, yet it deserves the .. airing.

I won't harbor abuse but I am interested in the justifications of why there seems to be little in way of explanation of just how a blatantly sexist practice- is not sexist?

Or is a sexist practice, actually quite acceptable?

I have written letters off to Editors, maybe it is an issue they would want to address, also.

I am in agreement with you. I think men should have to be identified as married or not married and that should be reflected in more than their general demeanor. Admittedly it is pretty easy to tell the difference between a married man and unmarried man but it is not entirely fair and I do see your point. I think men should be made to choose from Mr. or Married Mr. or well, ... I am sure some of the more enlightened posters can think of something.

If women have to be identified as Miss or Mrs. then men should have to be to. Since you are going to have to add an extra title it might as well be for the man. When I was young our maid called me master and continued that until she died when I was past 40, I rather liked it.