Problems With A Salt Water Pool

[mike1963]

If you are considering changing the sand in your filter go for glass filter media. It is more expensive than sand but much better. Check it out with Google. I recently had a similar problem with a customer's pool & in the end we added flocculant which cleared up the problem.

Hi V, thanks for that, will check it out. Can you recommend a supplier for this media as Korat struggles with pool supplies. Also flocculant, supply?

Many thanks,

Mike.

[fdimike]

Mike

Check the pool supply web sites like Pool Doctor for supplies. Siam Pools is another good source. They can easily send you what you want. I ordered a drum of Cyanauric Acid from Pool Doctor. I paid via an ATM transfer and it was on the bus to Udon Thani the next day.

[mike1963]

Mike

Check the pool supply web sites like Pool Doctor for supplies. Siam Pools is another good source. They can easily send you what you want. I ordered a drum of Cyanauric Acid from Pool Doctor. I paid via an ATM transfer and it was on the bus to Udon Thani the next day.

Thanks Mike, I have ordered from PD in the past, just wondered if there was anyone out there who knew of someone closer to Korat.

Appreciated your comments towards the Algae Messiah.

Regards,

Mike

[fdimike]

Mike

It's not the first time I've run into people like him on these forums.

I would have thought Korat would have had more than ampl pool supply companies. We have at least a half dozen here in Udon Thani all of which opened in the last 5 years. Swimming pools have become quite popular up this way.

[mike1963]

Mike

It's not the first time I've run into people like him on these forums.

I would have thought Korat would have had more than ampl pool supply companies. We have at least a half dozen here in Udon Thani all of which opened in the last 5 years. Swimming pools have become quite popular up this way.

There are a couple of places but reluctant to order "new" items, easier to say "no have" than "let me see what I can do" TIT Na Khrap!

Also the huge differential on price, Muriatic Acid, was paying 900 Baht, current supplier 250 Baht!!!! These guys can get stuff, just whether they want to or not.

Regards,

Mike.

[WarpSpeed]

Gil

Actually, algae needs both sunlight AND high levels of phosphates/nitrates to bloom as described. It's one of the reasons that detergeant manufacturers have cut down the amount of phosphates in laundry detergeant in an effort to control algae which in turn leads to large fish kills.

Is there a possibility that Mike's sand filter is just not up to the job of removing the fine sediment which may have come with all the rain? The sediment may have also been carried by the local water supply.

He says that the CL level in the pool is ok. Is there a chance the test kit/chemicals are out of date and giving a false reading?

Do you have some sort of test equipment for sale to test for ORP?

Mike

There's definitely that possibility and he should vacuum to waste as quickly as permissible without stirring up the sediment on the bottom, so as to lose as little water as possible and then refill, shock and repeat as necessary.. If it's due to the local water supply this will be difficult but not impossible or alternatively he can find someone with a portable cartridge filter system who can give him a one time vacuum.. If it then comes back there is additional problems..

[fdimike]

Warp

Excellent point. Mike have you thought about trying what Warp is suggesting?

[WarpSpeed]

Naam

It's not what you're trying to convey but the WAY you say it. You come across as a know everything, listen to no one, arrogant individual who's unwilling to DISCUSS a subject in some mature manner.

While I agree in principle I often get this attitude too and it's really irrelevant to the OP who asked for help with his pool. Naam and others including myself have offered that and instead of getting all prissy about how the help has been offered it might be wise to get past the delicate sensitivities and appreciate the good will for taking the time to try and help out...

Naam has made some good points, I have on occasion myself used a small amount of DE to clear up problem pools with sand filters but usually I just shut down the entire system for a couple of days and let it settle and then vacuum to waste and refill which works if your water quality is up to par, this is always done in combination with high PH and alkalinity levels which aid in coagulation where as low Ph lends itself to suspending the sediment. I have used this technique on pools that were literally so green you couldn't see the top step and it's worked hundreds of times but on occasion you get one or 2 that require that little extra push to get them to crystal clear..

BTW Valentine refers to a flocculent which is in line with the same process I suggested only using a chemical to coagulate the sediment to get it to 'fall out' so it can be easily removed from the pool bottom by vacuum. The problem is that most sand filters are not efficient enough to pull out the overwhelming amount of this very fine sediment and thus they get saturated and allow much of it to pass straight through back into the pool especially when vacuuming which is why waste vacuuming is necessary until you can get the amount of sediment down to manageable proportions...

With Cl2 levels as high as stated it is clear he has CL2 lock out and the pool needs to be shocked to reactivate the Cl2 to be free active and available to sanitize the pool and not combined Cl2, which it is, as it is locked up. Yes, that means add more Cl2 temporarily and phosphates, and more over, high combined solids is what algae feed off of with sunlight and this is what is out of control and feeding the algae but you don't have a test kit to read the levels and comes from years of adding solid chems that have been dissolved plus natural causes in the surrounding ecosystem. The idea of waste vacuuming will also address this problem as it will dilute the amount of Cl2 and dissolved solids in the pool by refilling and getting it down to proper, effective levels.. Once the pool is clear then it is re-balanced to manageable swimmer comfort levels..

It is also important to flush Cl2 directly through your filter if it's a sand filter as guess what algae is? It's a plant so it grows in guess what?? Soil, like all plants which happens to be in your SAND filter so it will grow very well in your sand filter as it has all the nutrients it needs there, is well protected from high Cl2 levels and then will release back into your pool when it sees the opportunity again to do so, and that won't be long from now..

So you must backwash it and during backwash cycle put in a bit of Cl2 directly into the vacuum line if no skimmer is available (use vacuum head and hose if necessary under the water and in a bucket) and then shut it off over night. Why backwash? Because this loosens up the sand from the bottom of the filter upwards and gives the best flushing and rinsing effect providing thorough Cl2 penetration.

This will get a nice amount into the filter and before running the pump again the next day backwash once more and you'll be shocked how much crap comes out in white dusty looking powder, as healthy algae, not unlike plant roots holds onto sediment and contains it like they do soil.. A cup or 2 of liquid Cl2 directly into your filter will not harm it or your pump on such rare occasions..

Edited August 16, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

And the peoples of Posting Land hoped and prayed that Naam would do as the Lord had asked and GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY.

Naam however couldn't care less what the people hoped for. he remained in his chosen place, vowed to continue to enlighten the ignorants and point out rubbish if and when presented whether the infidels liked it or not. needless to say that the infidels did not like Naam's questioning and kept on shooting their own feet the blooming algae in their pools with... deep purple coloured parts per million.

Can I use this in other threads with a few edits??

[Naam]

Naam:

Yes indeed, I already held up my hands and said I know very little, if I knew it all like you mate then I would not be asking these questions in the first place. Yes, new to pools so need help....you don't want to help, then go and find another hobby instead of being a negative poster, all of the other posters have been helpful, apart from you

FYI, the strips I use, free chlorine ranges from a Tuscany cream to a Barney purple.

As I said, if you do not have anything constructive to add then don't post.....what's the point otherwise?

you still have not explained the "6-10ppm free Cl". stop the bla-bla and tell us the reason why the Cl content was that high. people with experience can't assist you with your problems if they get half-assed exotic information. i am well known having helped hundreds of times as far as technical problems are concerned and i am not used to arrogant and irrelevant as well as ignorant answers when i ask the simple question "is this supposed to be a joke?" because it looked like a joke if it wasn't a typing mistake!.

[Naam]

deleted because not applicable

Edited August 17, 2011 by Naam

[Naam]

Mike

It's not the first time I've run into people like him on these forums.

I would have thought Korat would have had more than ampl pool supply companies. We have at least a half dozen here in Udon Thani all of which opened in the last 5 years. Swimming pools have become quite popular up this way.

There are a couple of places but reluctant to order "new" items, easier to say "no have" than "let me see what I can do" TIT Na Khrap!

Also the huge differential on price, Muriatic Acid, was paying 900 Baht, current supplier 250 Baht!!!! These guys can get stuff, just whether they want to or not.

Regards,

Mike.

that's really cheap! but is it 30% strength? i pay for a 25L container 700 Baht.

[Naam]

Naam has made some good points, I have on occasion myself used a small amount of DE to clear up problem pools with sand filters but usually I just shut down the entire system for a couple of days and let it settle and then vacuum to waste and refill which works if your water quality is up to par, this is always done in combination with high PH and alkalinity levels which aid in coagulation where as low Ph lends itself to suspending the sediment. I have used this technique on pools that were literally so green you couldn't see the top step and it's worked hundreds of times but on occasion you get one or 2 that require that little extra push to get them to crystal clear.

an interesting procedure WarpSpeed. but is it more efficient than adding DE on top of the sand and let the pump do the work instead of using vacuuming?

plus... i had huge problems in my last pool when a Dummy (my-not so-humble self) backwashed without opening the end valve of the backwash pipe (an additional feature) and all the DE was pumped into the pool. it took me weeks to filter the cloudy water clear again because only a small part settled at the bottom.

by the way, i went overboard with my combined pool/spa/solar/filter piping and could not find a pool builder in Florida who would do the job according to my detailed sketches. so i did it myself. it took a couple of weeks sweating, cursing, trials and errors till everything worked. and when i was out of the country for a few months it took time to familiarise myself again. it looked like this:

[WarpSpeed]

That's a few years ago yes Naam? Lucky you didn't blow out your multiport valve gasket with that oversight of not opening the waste valve.. It's a nightmare removing DE from a pool with a sand filter you could have cut that time by a third if you shut down the system and let it settle then vacuumed it to waste, all a sand filter does in a situation like that is stir it up constantly which should give you an idea of how inefficient a sand filter really is as either a cartridge or a DE filter would pull it right out in a day or so. There is a vast difference between the coarseness of the sand media here too compared to back home which is much less coarse, so much more efficient..

That's a decent looking plumbing job it takes some plumbers years to plumb in a system that well let alone that complicated and I'd have to see it in person and study it for a few minutes to completely figure it out, I most definitely would have used these instead though:

They have Teflon seals and used to be guaranteed for 5 years but I find out now they are guaranteed for life, nothing beats them.. I sure do miss white PVC pipe, though they are starting to carry some now at Home Pro I can't get my mind around all this blue crap with inconsistent fit, no tapered threads on threaded fittings, crap reducers and no male threaded 90's.

That process is sometimes more efficient it all depends on the water quality and the amount of fall out sediment both of which is sometimes a problem here. What is best about it is he has what is known as Cl2 lockout right now which is why his pool is @ 6-10ppm Cl2 and he still has algae issues so unlike just adding DE with this procedure he addresses several problems with one action in vacuuming to waste he is reducing the amount of Cl2 and dissolved solids in his pool water which is the primary cause of his lockout and then he is adding untreated water to compensate and dilute.

It also sounds to me as if maybe he has already added CYA at some point and it is too high (though could have done it unknowingly and most likely does not have a test kit to test or someone around knowledgeable enough to understand it as it's a special test and chem not often understood even back home) this is also addressed by a waste vacuum and adding fresh water, so in that vein it addresses several potential issues and removes the sediment from the bottom instead of just that alone..

I don't mean any insult by saying this but when test kits/results are unavailable and knowledge is short, this is a lesson in "pool care for dummies" to help him potentially address all his demons in a few steps..

Hope it helps..

Edited August 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[Naam]

1. That's a few years ago yes Naam?

2. Lucky you didn't blow out your multiport valve gasket with that oversight of not opening the waste valve..

3. It's a nightmare removing DE from a pool with a sand filter you could have cut that time by a third if you shut down the system and let it settle then vacuumed it to waste,

4. all a sand filter does in a situation like that is stir it up constantly which should give you an idea of how inefficient a sand filter really is as either a cartridge or a DE filter would pull it right out in a day or so.

1. it was in 1994 when i was still "young" and thought Viagra is for old gits only

2. luckily i opened another (wrong) valve through which the DE and dirt was pumped into the pool. if the gasket had blown that would have been harmless. but have you ever seen a blown filter? in North Florida a man was killed and building codes were changed requiring an additional safety valve.

3. i had a DE filter. in a civilised country sand filters are a big no-no actually i waited two days, nothing settled, pool was milky white that i couldn't see the bottom. then i started filtering again tripling pumping hours.

4. that's why i came up with the idea using once in a while DE. works to my utmost satisfaction. if i knew where to get the often mentioned broken glass i'd change. have asked in Pattaya poolshops but nobody knows. what i was told is to change the sand every 3-5 years because (as you mentioned sand is stirred up) the sand grinds itself "blunt".

p.s. the reason why i added an additional valve at the end of the backwash discharge pipe was that the multiport valve did not shut off completely inspite of changing gasket and using a special sealer paste. before adding the valve i had considerable water loss during pumping times

[mike1963]

[

There's definitely that possibility and he should vacuum to waste as quickly as permissible without stirring up the sediment on the bottom, so as to lose as little water as possible and then refill, shock and repeat as necessary.. If it's due to the local water supply this will be difficult but not impossible or alternatively he can find someone with a portable cartridge filter system who can give him a one time vacuum.. If it then comes back there is additional problems..

Ok, did that am am now refilling the pool.

Will re-shock tomorrow.

Pool is still blue, but cloudy....needs a re-shock as the blue is definitely fading and if left I can only assume will go green again.

I'll post back after shocking.

Mike

[mike1963]

that's really cheap! but is it 30% strength? i pay for a 25L container 700 Baht.

The label says 35% HYDROCHLORIC ACID, bought at Do Home.

[WarpSpeed]

1. That's a few years ago yes Naam?

2. Lucky you didn't blow out your multiport valve gasket with that oversight of not opening the waste valve..

3. It's a nightmare removing DE from a pool with a sand filter you could have cut that time by a third if you shut down the system and let it settle then vacuumed it to waste,

4. all a sand filter does in a situation like that is stir it up constantly which should give you an idea of how inefficient a sand filter really is as either a cartridge or a DE filter would pull it right out in a day or so.

1. it was in 1994 when i was still "young" and thought Viagra is for old gits only

2. luckily i opened another (wrong) valve through which the DE and dirt was pumped into the pool. if the gasket had blown that would have been harmless. but have you ever seen a blown filter? in North Florida a man was killed and building codes were changed requiring an additional safety valve.

3. i had a DE filter. in a civilised country sand filters are a big no-no actually i waited two days, nothing settled, pool was milky white that i couldn't see the bottom. then i started filtering again tripling pumping hours.

4. that's why i came up with the idea using once in a while DE. works to my utmost satisfaction. if i knew where to get the often mentioned broken glass i'd change. have asked in Pattaya poolshops but nobody knows. what i was told is to change the sand every 3-5 years because (as you mentioned sand is stirred up) the sand grinds itself "blunt".

p.s. the reason why i added an additional valve at the end of the backwash discharge pipe was that the multiport valve did not shut off completely inspite of changing gasket and using a special sealer paste. before adding the valve i had considerable water loss during pumping times

That's about the period I had it pegged it for, that's my hey day too, and that's about when the Jandy valve was all the rage but the Never Lube had just come out so not so well known yet, still think Viagra is for old men though ..

Actually exploding filters is a bigger problem here then most realize due to salt chlorinators which produce hydrogen gas and if not properly installed or operated can collect and boil backward into the filter collecting and creating quite an explosion..

So yes your gasket was already blown out then and the usual 'quick fix' applied that's why I said "good thing" as once they're blown out they're very seldom properly fixed as they come glued and when removing, few people take the time required to properly remove the old gasket, clean all it's bits out of the seat that stay behind so the gasket and the valve seat properly, dry and install the new one.

It not only grinds itself blunt but it ends up sitting in locations in the filter where there is no backflow between the filter laterals when backwashing and then it clumps together. The sand used back home doesn't really reuire changing that often nor does it here really, they just want to sell you new sand and a service but secretly I'll tell you a trade secret. You only need to do what I suggest with adding some Cl2 while backwashing and then shut the pump down overnight. The next day backwash again, not too long tough, open it up and take a garden hose with a nice pressure nozzle on it and rinse the sand by hand like rinsing a pot of rice until the water goes clear, besides feeling and breaking up the dirt clumps you'll be amazed at how much dirt comes out that you thought was not there.

Do this every year or so instead of replacing the sand every 3-5 years, it's not that critical how often you flush/rinse could be every 2years but every time you do it your filter will actually get more efficient not less, as like you said the sand gets smooth over time so that increases it's efficiency up to a point as long as it's not getting too dusty, it acts like adding your DE.. Most pool owners and pool techs don't know that their sand filter is actually most inefficient just after backwashing and for the next couple of weeks as the sand needs to be tamped down into the filter for it to be at it's best filtering capacity and that takes a few weeks to happen.

While all filters get more efficient the dirtier they get up to a saturation point, DE and cartridges are more efficient clean then a sand filter at peak efficiency by a wide margin so backwashing them too often is self defeating as the are considerably less efficient after backwashing....

Edited August 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Ok, did that am am now refilling the pool.

Will re-shock tomorrow.

Pool is still blue, but cloudy....needs a re-shock as the blue is definitely fading and if left I can only assume will go green again.

I'll post back after shocking.

Mike

Will definitely go green again, how much constitutes a "shock" do you think?? Are you using liquid Cl2? I forgot what size pool but it'd be safe to put in at least least 35 to 40 liters and expect it to be gone tomorrow if you don't have any Cya in the pool... If that seems a lot, remember you're not only treating the old water but the new water and then having enough free active to continue to keep the pool from going backwards you must also consider that there is little uniformity or consistency with liquid Cl2 strength here so ok to seemingly over do it to get the needed result..

Edited August 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[PoolDoctor]

Algea is almost always a sign of low chlorine. However, there is a chemistry phenomenon that chlorine does not work efficiently in high pH water (above 8.0). Algae is sometimes seen in pools where there is a good chlorine level, but high pH. Knock the pH down with acid to release the killing power (oxidation) of chlorine. Keep alkaline in range to stabilize pH at 7.5.

You can shock a SW pool with either granular chlorine, or liquid chlorine. We like liquid chlorine, because its safe, easy, works quickly, then burns off quickly. However, if your pool pH is high, use the granules (90% strength); this is because this chlorine has a very low pH, and you will kill two birds with one stone (see first paragraph). You should try to learn about ORP, and begin measuring this instead of free chlorine. ORP takes into account the ph at the moment of testing sanitizer oxidation potential. All of our pools now have ORP sensors and pH sensors plumbed in.

Also, keep CYA in range, in 90% of all salt water pools, the owner is not familiar with CYA. Chlorine from a chlorinator is un-stabilized, and needs a supplemental stabilizer.

Cloudy water is almost always a filter problem. Don't backflush though, if pressure readings are normal. A little bit of dirt in the filter actually helps filtration. Check the pump impellor to make sure there is good cirulation rates (stagnant water goes green). There are no mysteries with pools, you will find the problem eventually.

Best,

Gil

All true but with one important omission. The culprit of high Ph is usually high Alkalinity and just adding acid in the usual ways or even using the powdered Cl2 will not effect the alkalinity enough in a one time dose to bring the Ph down to stable levels unless the acid is added in one place directly and not dispersed like the usual application. Test your alkalinity first and then make adjustments accordingly, the silt on the bottom is either algae fall out from some algae dying or it is potentially sand from a broken lateral in the bottom of the filter which can also aggravate or have even initiated the original problem..

Good point. In fact, we teach the "APC's" of water chemistry in our corporate training programs - A - adjust alkaline first, then P - pH, and then C - chlorine. Like cyuranic acid though, 99% of the pools we see in Thailand have little or no alkaline (because the owner is misusing granular chlorine). I have yet to see a pool with high alkaline. Technically though, you are spot on correct, I should have also thought of this.

Best,

Gil

[PoolDoctor]

Algea is almost always a sign of low chlorine. However, there is a chemistry phenomenon that chlorine does not work efficiently in high pH water (above 8.0). Algae is sometimes seen in pools where there is a good chlorine level, but high pH. Knock the pH down with acid to release the killing power (oxidation) of chlorine. Keep alkaline in range to stabilize pH at 7.5.

You can shock a SW pool with either granular chlorine, or liquid chlorine. We like liquid chlorine, because its safe, easy, works quickly, then burns off quickly. However, if your pool pH is high, use the granules (90% strength); this is because this chlorine has a very low pH, and you will kill two birds with one stone (see first paragraph). You should try to learn about ORP, and begin measuring this instead of free chlorine. ORP takes into account the ph at the moment of testing sanitizer oxidation potential. All of our pools now have ORP sensors and pH sensors plumbed in.

Also, keep CYA in range, in 90% of all salt water pools, the owner is not familiar with CYA. Chlorine from a chlorinator is un-stabilized, and needs a supplemental stabilizer.

Cloudy water is almost always a filter problem. Don't backflush though, if pressure readings are normal. A little bit of dirt in the filter actually helps filtration. Check the pump impellor to make sure there is good cirulation rates (stagnant water goes green). There are no mysteries with pools, you will find the problem eventually.

Best,

Gil

All true but with one important omission. The culprit of high Ph is usually high Alkalinity and just adding acid in the usual ways or even using the powdered Cl2 will not effect the alkalinity enough in a one time dose to bring the Ph down to stable levels unless the acid is added in one place directly and not dispersed like the usual application. Test your alkalinity first and then make adjustments accordingly, the silt on the bottom is either algae fall out from some algae dying or it is potentially sand from a broken lateral in the bottom of the filter which can also aggravate or have even initiated the original problem..

Good point. In fact, we teach the "APC's" of water chemistry in our corporate training programs - A - adjust alkaline first, then P - pH, and then C - chlorine. Like cyuranic acid though, 99% of the pools we see in Thailand have little or no alkaline (because the owner is misusing granular chlorine). I have yet to see a pool with high alkaline. Technically though, you are spot on correct, I should have also thought of this.

Best,

Gil

Just re reading your post, noticed - "unless the acid is added in one place directly and not dispersed like the usual application." Only the most harcore pool people know this trick regarding the relationship between acid, pH, and alkaline, and how to acid acid to affect either independently. Kudos to you. In 8 years of pool work, I have never seen anybody know this. Myself, I have actually never tried it. Does it work?

Best,

Gil

[mike1963]

Mike

Will definitely go green again, how much constitutes a "shock" do you think?? Are you using liquid Cl2? I forgot what size pool but it'd be safe to put in at least least 35 to 40 liters and expect it to be gone tomorrow if you don't have any Cya in the pool... If that seems a lot, remember you're not only treating the old water but the new water and then having enough free active to continue to keep the pool from going backwards you must also consider that there is little uniformity or consistency with liquid Cl2 strength here so ok to seemingly over do it to get the needed result..

Hi , WS, today i bought (no chemical info on the label) liquid bleach, according to the supplier the chlorine content is 12%, it is unscented. The label says it is FL3 bleach CL, it's primary use (according to the label) is for bleaching clothing. I was instructed on another forum to use liquid bleach as a shock treatment.

Pool measures 15m x 5m x 1.74m so you think I need to use the quantity you mentioned above?When I do, do I fliter at the same time or leave the filter off for how long?

Many thanks,

Mike.

[fdimike]

All

Those of you having difficulty sealing PVC non-tapered threaded fittings forget the white teflon tape and switch to Rectorseal T plus 2 pipe thread sealant. This is a teflon enriched non hardening paste which works great. It's safe for all plastic and metal pipe. You apply the paste to the male threads on all fittings up to 1 1/4" and apply to both male & female threads on larger pipe. Be carefull using the stuff on the large plastic filter valve because I believe the fittings are tapered. If that's the case then use it on the male thread only. I've usd this paste on all my fittings and absolutely no leaks. I used it for many years in the US in place of teflon tape. Unfortunately, it's not available here in Thailand as best I can determine. I ordered it from the US through EBay. A bit pricey when you include the shipping but worth every penney.

Upgrdaed sand replacement (glass beads etc) is available through the GDL Pool Shop http://www.poolshopthailand.com/ . They stock the stuff. I'm using a DE filter so need for it.

[WarpSpeed]

Algea is almost always a sign of low chlorine. However, there is a chemistry phenomenon that chlorine does not work efficiently in high pH water (above 8.0). Algae is sometimes seen in pools where there is a good chlorine level, but high pH. Knock the pH down with acid to release the killing power (oxidation) of chlorine. Keep alkaline in range to stabilize pH at 7.5.

You can shock a SW pool with either granular chlorine, or liquid chlorine. We like liquid chlorine, because its safe, easy, works quickly, then burns off quickly. However, if your pool pH is high, use the granules (90% strength); this is because this chlorine has a very low pH, and you will kill two birds with one stone (see first paragraph). You should try to learn about ORP, and begin measuring this instead of free chlorine. ORP takes into account the ph at the moment of testing sanitizer oxidation potential. All of our pools now have ORP sensors and pH sensors plumbed in.

Also, keep CYA in range, in 90% of all salt water pools, the owner is not familiar with CYA. Chlorine from a chlorinator is un-stabilized, and needs a supplemental stabilizer.

Cloudy water is almost always a filter problem. Don't backflush though, if pressure readings are normal. A little bit of dirt in the filter actually helps filtration. Check the pump impellor to make sure there is good cirulation rates (stagnant water goes green). There are no mysteries with pools, you will find the problem eventually.

Best,

Gil

All true but with one important omission. The culprit of high Ph is usually high Alkalinity and just adding acid in the usual ways or even using the powdered Cl2 will not effect the alkalinity enough in a one time dose to bring the Ph down to stable levels unless the acid is added in one place directly and not dispersed like the usual application. Test your alkalinity first and then make adjustments accordingly, the silt on the bottom is either algae fall out from some algae dying or it is potentially sand from a broken lateral in the bottom of the filter which can also aggravate or have even initiated the original problem..

Good point. In fact, we teach the "APC's" of water chemistry in our corporate training programs - A - adjust alkaline first, then P - pH, and then C - chlorine. Like cyuranic acid though, 99% of the pools we see in Thailand have little or no alkaline (because the owner is misusing granular chlorine). I have yet to see a pool with high alkaline. Technically though, you are spot on correct, I should have also thought of this.

Best,

Gil

Just re reading your post, noticed - "unless the acid is added in one place directly and not dispersed like the usual application." Only the most harcore pool people know this trick regarding the relationship between acid, pH, and alkaline, and how to acid acid to affect either independently. Kudos to you. In 8 years of pool work, I have never seen anybody know this. Myself, I have actually never tried it. Does it work?

Best,

Gil

Cheers, absolutely it works! I'm about as hard core as they come, I've had decades of first hand experience with my own companies since being a teenager in one of the most advanced markets pool wise (at least 15 to 20 years ahead of much of what has been here technologically) and some great technicians along the way to learn from plus one of my first bosses was some kind of fricking pool genius chemical wise all from hands on and a multitude of sand filter experience (more then I care to remember once Hayward cartridge filters came out) plus loads of factory direct warrantee training and certifications for equipment maintenance as well..

I usually garner quite a price for this type of advice too ... 8 years huh? That's how long I've been here...

[WarpSpeed]

Hi , WS, today i bought (no chemical info on the label) liquid bleach, according to the supplier the chlorine content is 12%, it is unscented. The label says it is FL3 bleach CL, it's primary use (according to the label) is for bleaching clothing. I was instructed on another forum to use liquid bleach as a shock treatment.

Pool measures 15m x 5m x 1.74m so you think I need to use the quantity you mentioned above?When I do, do I fliter at the same time or leave the filter off for how long?

Many thanks,

Mike.

Yes Mike at least what I mentioned though actual pool chlorine is about 20% Cl2 and is processed a bit differently to remove more metal sediment which is a byproduct of the manufacturing process and can stain a pool if you have anything besides tile..

I'd put it in in the shallow end as Cl2 is heavier then water and will flow down to the deep end, let it mix about an hour and then shut down the system, brush it thoroughly overlapping your strokes and let it sit, but as I said check the Cl2 again tomorrow and also make sure the PH and T/A are a bit high, Ph above 7.8 and T/A no lower then 100PPm.

Brushing algae is very important though a wire brush is not needed a nylon brush is like trying to find a virgin bar girl here it seems (not that I'd know anything about that ..........seriously ) as once algae has matured to the point of it being visible it has grown a skin like ours that provides it protection and it did this in the amount of Cl2 you currently have so adding just a bit more Cl2 in that volume of water isn't going to effect it all that much in the grand scheme of things as it's already built up a resistance.

What is required is to 'scratch' this outer skin to allow the Cl2 to penetrate the algae and then it will kill it off just as if you were to sit in a bathtub of diluted Cl2 it would not harm you either, add another liter and it still won't hurt you maybe just burn a bit until you wash it off but it's just more volume not more strength.. Now, if you drink even a half cup of Cl2 you'd need some aid pretty quickly and that's what is happening in that case...

Premature algae before it becomes mature enough for you to see is slippery to the touch but not visible unless it's in concentration suspended in the pool as it sounds like you're now seeing.. But it continues to grow and try to mature like any plant (which is when you see color be it green, red, or brown) until you stunt it completely by shocking, brushing and backwashing.. Basically you're applying weed killer..

When I think of the volumes of algae I've killed over the decades and now they are studying to make fuel out of it I could have been an oil tycoon which would have been much more lucrative ...

[WarpSpeed]

All

Those of you having difficulty sealing PVC non-tapered threaded fittings forget the white teflon tape and switch to Rectorseal T plus 2 pipe thread sealant. This is a teflon enriched non hardening paste which works great. It's safe for all plastic and metal pipe. You apply the paste to the male threads on all fittings up to 1 1/4" and apply to both male & female threads on larger pipe. Be carefull using the stuff on the large plastic filter valve because I believe the fittings are tapered. If that's the case then use it on the male thread only. I've usd this paste on all my fittings and absolutely no leaks. I used it for many years in the US in place of teflon tape. Unfortunately, it's not available here in Thailand as best I can determine. I ordered it from the US through EBay. A bit pricey when you include the shipping but worth every penney.

Upgrdaed sand replacement (glass beads etc) is available through the GDL Pool Shop http://www.poolshopthailand.com/ . They stock the stuff. I'm using a DE filter so need for it.

Rectorseal?? That's the ticket Mike but only ordered as you say online, and it still has some problems if the threads have been used already and won't tighten (I.E. used pipe, new valve) but you're on target.. Dam_n! I'm giving all of my trade secrets away but you can also get Permatex gasket maker here at True Value and some other sources it's the original, though only in black so you can not use it on Cycolac plastics as it attacks cycolac and will crack it over time through a chemical reaction, which by the way, is most all multiport valves..

Permatex also makes a white Teflon thread sealer and you may be able to request an order from one of these sources since most do carry Permatex products but for PVC black is no problem and here's the ideal way to use either Rectorseal or Permatex.. I would always caution to only use thread sealer on the male side as it's more then enough to do the job with the technique I'm listing below and that way you don't have a large ball of it that was unused while threading it in the fitting that ends up in your house faucets or pool valves or where ever you are plumbing as it will wash through and cause a clog in small openings or filters, etc..

First clean the threads with PVC pipe cleaner to remove the silicone release agent they used to make the pipe with, if not the sealer mostly just rolls off the fitting when threading. Put a modest amount on the threads start about 2 or 3 threads up and then wrap the threads with Teflon tape about 3 to 4 wraps but gently and slowly pulling the tape back to you to tighten it more and distribute the sealer into threads evenly.

You hold the fitting in your left hand threads out and wrap with your right hand clockwise with the T tape roll positioned that it is coming unrolled over the top of the roll so you can pull it easily that way without the roll unrolling out of your hand and across the floor, that way it will wrap in the proper direction so when you screw it in it will tighten the T tape instead of backing it off. This will have 3 beneficial effects, one of getting a good spread of thread dope deep into the threads with good contact and coverage so it doesn't 'roll off' when you tighten it in, secondly to make as tight and sealed a fitting as possible with these sloppy threads and thirdly it makes a nice neat finish (fingers included once you get the hang of it) to your job without having drips and such which is contained by the T tape..

Make sure when you thread it in if you're replacing an already installed valve or such on an old fitting then you have no control of where the valve will end up once screwed on (the handles may point down for example). So if you want the valve right side up and straight slow down and don't over tighten or you'll have to start over as it WILL leak so you just want it snug. if this is completely new install and the fitting is also new then thread it on first until it bottoms out and then glue it in the position you want..

[fdimike]

Warp

Thanks for the hints. I've heard of using the paste in combination with teflon tape but never was able to employ it because I wasn't able to locate any paste here in Thailand. I contacted the Permatex dealer in BKK who was very nice but they did not carry the paste. There are several companies in the US making the stuff but Rectorseal was the only one for sale from a shipper willing to send it here.

I can get the black Permatex pipe sealant but as best I can determine it's really not designed for PVC pipe.

To the best of my knowledge PVC pipe cleaner is also not available here in Thailand. We used to call it "Purple Jesus" in Florida (I have no idea why). PVC pipe cleaner is nothing more that acetone which you can get at any store selling beauty supplies (removes nail polish/enamel). It's a lower strength but ok. I have since gotten around this by buying it from a vetenarian clinic. It's a higher concentration that's used to clean lab equipment.

[WarpSpeed]

Warp

Thanks for the hints. I've heard of using the paste in combination with teflon tape but never was able to employ it because I wasn't able to locate any paste here in Thailand. I contacted the Permatex dealer in BKK who was very nice but they did not carry the paste. There are several companies in the US making the stuff but Rectorseal was the only one for sale from a shipper willing to send it here.

I can get the black Permatex pipe sealant but as best I can determine it's really not designed for PVC pipe.

To the best of my knowledge PVC pipe cleaner is also not available here in Thailand. We used to call it "Purple Jesus" in Florida (I have no idea why). PVC pipe cleaner is nothing more that acetone which you can get at any store selling beauty supplies (removes nail polish/enamel). It's a lower strength but ok. I have since gotten around this by buying it from a vetenarian clinic. It's a higher concentration that's used to clean lab equipment.

Black Permatex is fine for use on PVC it was the first product to be used before Rectorseal or White Permatex (Oh crap! Now I've dated myself ) and then because it was in conflict with cycolac plastics as was the original Rectorseal they developed the current Teflon based pipe dopes. I know this because I was instrumental in helping the manufacturers to figure out it was these sealers causing the problem they weren't working together and I bridged the gap and pointed out the commonality between all of their products that led to the failures because we had literally hundreds of failures due to it and new ones popping up every day..

The clear acetone cleaner is also available here but not the purple primer you're referring to which I hated anyways always looked sloppy, Thai Pipe Industry Co. Ltd. in Bangkok packages and sells it, the site has an English feature but like so many sites, it's limited, so best to have Google translate to help out but at least you can work out how to contact from that.

I'm looking at a container of it right now, no phone number but an address, you just have to get your point across to people who have not only never heard of it but never felt it necessary to use which is why so many peoples pipes come apart here..

What is a real PITA is the inability to get a decent glue pot with a nice dauber in it, the closest I've come to that is buying a product that came here about 4 years ago from the states and is available in some of the large stores like Home Pro. It's 777 PVC glue that has a rather small brush inside but it works better then a rag or hacksaw blade so many use here which wastes most of the can most of which are also not reclosable well enough to keep them from drying out. Then once the can is emptied of glue I clean it out with the cleaner and use it for the cleaner and tape them together with duck tape..

Edited August 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[fdimike]

Warp

I've seen the pipe cleaner on a Thai Pipe display board of fittings. I asked and was told "no have". Can I order some "no". Do you think it's any better than using regular acetone? If so I'll push to have it ordered here in Udon Thani.

I've been using the same glue as you mention for the same reason. I recently saw a new brand of glue here in Udon Thani with what may be a dauber. I didn't have time to open a can but will do so and post here.

Can you take a pic of the can of pipe cleaner for me an d post here? That way I can show the locals what I want.

I think the purple color of the pipe cleaner was a way of displaying that cleaner was indeed used. Maybe it camne out of the requirement for inspections to make sure the plumbing adheres to code. They have construction codes here in Thailand but no one to enforce them.

Mike

[Naam]

without any envy i admit "when it's pools... WarpSpeed rocks (most of the time)!" even old hands like me learn things they never heard of.