Playing Music For Free In Bangkok

[SkyRider]

On a retirement visa, is it possible to play music for free in Bangkok? I've heard about the arrests of musicians playing for free in Chiang Mai, is the same thing happening in Bangkok?

[CharlieH]

On a Retirment Visa you are not allowed to do any form of work, not even volunteering.

"Non-Immigrant Visa “O-A” (Long Stay) or Extension

"This type of Visa may be issued to applicants aged 50 years and over who wish to stay in Thailand for a period of not exceeding 1 year without the intention of working.

Holder of this type of Visa is allowed to stay in Thailand for 1 year. Employment/work of any kind is strictly prohibited."

Edited August 11, 2011 by CharlieH

[ChristopherWilliamsBKK]

If you are playing for fun and not receiving money - sure you can do it.

Rock on dude

[gkinbkk]

If you are playing for fun and not receiving money - sure you can do it.

Rock on dude

My understanding is a little different in that from a legal perspective even playing for free in a bar is considered work for a couple of reasons:

1. Having live music in a bar is for commercial purposes. i.e. to attract people into a bar for the purpose of making money. Even if you are making zero dollars you are making someone else money and that's work.

2. If the bar wants to put on bands for the purpose of making money (which is really the only reason for having live music), the owner should typically be hiring and paying for a band. In this country that band is normally made up of Thais and by playing for free you are eliminating a potential income stream for a Thai. if a Thai complains to the police about a foreigner playing music in a bar they are obliged to investigate.

Having said that, this being Thailand and all, though the law is black and white on paper it may be a little more forgiving in practice. Usually the law becomes more forgiving upon payment of money to the authorities and I would expect that the owner of the bar would be taking care of this for you and this has been the case for me when I have played in Bangkok before. When you are talking to someone about playing in their bar this is an important discussion to have up front.

I don't know what happened in Chiang Mai for it to get like that (and I'm sure the true story is lurking somewhere in the subtext) but it doesn't seem to have filtered down to Bangkok. You do need to understand the risk you are taking by doing it though.

Having said all that, Bangkok's music scene blows big time unfortunately. I don't think you are going to be making a nice retirement income off gigging through lack of venues and the idea that Country Roads and Hotel California are a staple in any set.....good luck though!

[ChristopherWilliamsBKK]

^

If you notice, the OP asked whether you can play for FREE.

If you're pretending to work for free then the laws you state come in to play. I suspect this was the case in Chiang Mai.

However, if you're a musician and you want to jam ANYWHERE the owner of the property allows you to - no problemo.

If some tea money seeking wrong 'uns threaten you, go to the police station, explain things to their superior and be on your merry (jammin') way. You won't get hassled a second time.

[Tarric]

^

If you notice, the OP asked whether you can play for FREE.

If you're pretending to work for free then the laws you state come in to play. I suspect this was the case in Chiang Mai.

However, if you're a musician and you want to jam ANYWHERE the owner of the property allows you to - no problemo.

If some tea money seeking wrong 'uns threaten you, go to the police station, explain things to their superior and be on your merry (jammin') way. You won't get hassled a second time.

Just reading that made me happy. Jam on and have a blast man

[SkyRider]

If you are playing for fun and not receiving money - sure you can do it.

Rock on dude

My understanding is a little different in that from a legal perspective even playing for free in a bar is considered work for a couple of reasons:

1. Having live music in a bar is for commercial purposes. i.e. to attract people into a bar for the purpose of making money. Even if you are making zero dollars you are making someone else money and that's work.

2. If the bar wants to put on bands for the purpose of making money (which is really the only reason for having live music), the owner should typically be hiring and paying for a band. In this country that band is normally made up of Thais and by playing for free you are eliminating a potential income stream for a Thai. if a Thai complains to the police about a foreigner playing music in a bar they are obliged to investigate.

Having said that, this being Thailand and all, though the law is black and white on paper it may be a little more forgiving in practice. Usually the law becomes more forgiving upon payment of money to the authorities and I would expect that the owner of the bar would be taking care of this for you and this has been the case for me when I have played in Bangkok before. When you are talking to someone about playing in their bar this is an important discussion to have up front.

I don't know what happened in Chiang Mai for it to get like that (and I'm sure the true story is lurking somewhere in the subtext) but it doesn't seem to have filtered down to Bangkok. You do need to understand the risk you are taking by doing it though.

Having said all that, Bangkok's music scene blows big time unfortunately. I don't think you are going to be making a nice retirement income off gigging through lack of venues and the idea that Country Roads and Hotel California are a staple in any set.....good luck though!

Now that you mention it, I've been to Bangkok several times, but I've never seen foreigner musicians play, I've only seen Thai musicians. Is it very difficult for a foreigner to play in a band in Bangkok, whether it be with Thai musicians or foreigner musicians?

[afarang]

Wrong. If you are a farang, you cannot play for free. Totally stupid law, but if you play and ANY THai complains to the police, you are gone for all money. End of story.The police MUST arrest you.Totally stupid. The concept of money does not enter into it. Free ? breaking the law

Edited August 12, 2011 by afarang

[ChristopherWilliamsBKK]

^ Rubbish.

[FritsSikkink]

^

If you notice, the OP asked whether you can play for FREE.

If you're pretending to work for free then the laws you state come in to play. I suspect this was the case in Chiang Mai.

However, if you're a musician and you want to jam ANYWHERE the owner of the property allows you to - no problemo.

If some tea money seeking wrong 'uns threaten you, go to the police station, explain things to their superior and be on your merry (jammin') way. You won't get hassled a second time.

If you are a musician and you play music how are you going to prove you are not working for free but are 'jamming'.

I think you got a big problem to explain to the police or judge what jamming is all about. They just see a musician working for free.

[beano2274]

If you get a drink from the bar for free that is considered payment for the jamming, therefore being paid, so illegal.

[Kilgore Trout]

^

If you notice, the OP asked whether you can play for FREE.

If you're pretending to work for free then the laws you state come in to play. I suspect this was the case in Chiang Mai.

However, if you're a musician and you want to jam ANYWHERE the owner of the property allows you to - no problemo.

If some tea money seeking wrong 'uns threaten you, go to the police station, explain things to their superior and be on your merry (jammin') way. You won't get hassled a second time.

By playing for free in a bar you are most definitely breaking the law (the way it is worded), if a Thai (as another poster pointed out)is determined enough, you will, without a doubt be prosecuted for working w/out a work permit. Denying the possibility of this is just nonsense.

[ChristopherWilliamsBKK]

If you are an A$%^&*4E and push a Thai so much that they have a vendetta against you then you have dug your own grave anyway.

Grab yer axe and rock - don't listen to the gloom mongers and sticklers

[Cuban]

Playing an instrument or singing a song (even badly) on stage as a guest musician however you want to dress up the phrase or situation is work in the eyes of the immigration department.

You need a work permit for which you need the right visa etc.

It is possible to get a limited time WP for being a specialist musician but it is a hassle and requires good relations with the immigration and the Labor Department - Work Office (whatever it's called that issues the WP).

It's a nice idea that a group of farang can play together for their own entertainment, but the moment the place is open for business whether it is Thai, farang or a mixed audience in a place like a pub or hall you need the relevant licences for live music and the performers need to be Thai nationals or have WPs. Plain and simple.

Go ask any venue that you consider playing at, don't ask if you can play - ask if it is legal.

[DocW]

^

If you notice, the OP asked whether you can play for FREE.

If you're pretending to work for free then the laws you state come in to play. I suspect this was the case in Chiang Mai.

However, if you're a musician and you want to jam ANYWHERE the owner of the property allows you to - no problemo.

If some tea money seeking wrong 'uns threaten you, go to the police station, explain things to their superior and be on your merry (jammin') way. You won't get hassled a second time.

YOU are VERY wrong and could be banned from Thai Visa for giving such bad advice that could lead to the OP's arrest. I have been here 11 years non stop and am a musician too. There are a handful of bars in ALL of Thailand that have a special license where anyone can play on stage. Volunteering is also a non profit thing however it also requires a Work Permit so you should not give such advice as you obviously DO NOT KNOW.

To the OP: If you want to jam in a bar that says that you are allowed to just ask them politely to see their license that will also be in English in small font and then if you see that THEN you can jam. If not then trust me all of these folks in Chiang Mai were playing illegal weather we think it is cool or not. I know it sucks but hey, TIT.

We used to jam in a bar on soi 5 in Jomtien Pattaya that had this special license but now they are also gone.

Trust me when I say that even when a band used to invite me on stage to play harp (harmonica) with them, this was illegal and I could have been arrested.

Sorry to blow your bubble but I think you were looking for real answers.

[Kilgore Trout]

If you are an A$%^&*4E and push a Thai so much that they have a vendetta against you then you have dug your own grave anyway.

Grab yer axe and rock - don't listen to the gloom mongers and sticklers

I'm not saying he shouldn't play, but he should know the reality of the situation so he can make an informed decision.

And keep in mind that some people don't need to be pushed to have a vendetta against you, jealousy can in many instances be enough; i.e, the wrong girl smiles at you for example.

[ChristopherWilliamsBKK]

^

If you notice, the OP asked whether you can play for FREE.

If you're pretending to work for free then the laws you state come in to play. I suspect this was the case in Chiang Mai.

However, if you're a musician and you want to jam ANYWHERE the owner of the property allows you to - no problemo.

If some tea money seeking wrong 'uns threaten you, go to the police station, explain things to their superior and be on your merry (jammin') way. You won't get hassled a second time.

YOU are VERY wrong and could be banned from Thai Visa for giving such bad advice that could lead to the OP's arrest. I have been here 11 years non stop and am a musician too. There are a handful of bars in ALL of Thailand that have a special license where anyone can play on stage. Volunteering is also a non profit thing however it also requires a Work Permit so you should not give such advice as you obviously DO NOT KNOW.

To the OP: If you want to jam in a bar that says that you are allowed to just ask them politely to see their license that will also be in English in small font and then if you see that THEN you can jam. If not then trust me all of these folks in Chiang Mai were playing illegal weather we think it is cool or not. I know it sucks but hey, TIT.

We used to jam in a bar on soi 5 in Jomtien Pattaya that had this special license but now they are also gone.

Trust me when I say that even when a band used to invite me on stage to play harp (harmonica) with them, this was illegal and I could have been arrested.

Sorry to blow your bubble but I think you were looking for real answers.

^ another very scared fuddy duddy

[ChristopherWilliamsBKK]

If you are an A$%^&*4E and push a Thai so much that they have a vendetta against you then you have dug your own grave anyway.

Grab yer axe and rock - don't listen to the gloom mongers and sticklers

I'm not saying he shouldn't play, but he should know the reality of the situation so he can make an informed decision.

And keep in mind that some people don't need to be pushed to have a vendetta against you, jealousy can in many instances be enough; i.e, the wrong girl smiles at you for example.

The girl smiling at you is always the right one

[smokie36]

^

If you notice, the OP asked whether you can play for FREE.

If you're pretending to work for free then the laws you state come in to play. I suspect this was the case in Chiang Mai.

However, if you're a musician and you want to jam ANYWHERE the owner of the property allows you to - no problemo.

If some tea money seeking wrong 'uns threaten you, go to the police station, explain things to their superior and be on your merry (jammin') way. You won't get hassled a second time.

YOU are VERY wrong and could be banned from Thai Visa for giving such bad advice that could lead to the OP's arrest. I have been here 11 years non stop and am a musician too. There are a handful of bars in ALL of Thailand that have a special license where anyone can play on stage. Volunteering is also a non profit thing however it also requires a Work Permit so you should not give such advice as you obviously DO NOT KNOW.

To the OP: If you want to jam in a bar that says that you are allowed to just ask them politely to see their license that will also be in English in small font and then if you see that THEN you can jam. If not then trust me all of these folks in Chiang Mai were playing illegal weather we think it is cool or not. I know it sucks but hey, TIT.

We used to jam in a bar on soi 5 in Jomtien Pattaya that had this special license but now they are also gone.

Trust me when I say that even when a band used to invite me on stage to play harp (harmonica) with them, this was illegal and I could have been arrested.

Sorry to blow your bubble but I think you were looking for real answers.

As you say not cool but you've given the correct answer.

[smokie36]

^ another very scared fuddy duddy

I've seen immigration officers arrive halfway through a friend's set and harass him even though he had a WP and had played in the same bar for years. Ruined the night for us all and caused him grief...and he is completely legit paying taxes et al...

You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

[Kilgore Trout]

If you are an A$%^&*4E and push a Thai so much that they have a vendetta against you then you have dug your own grave anyway.

Grab yer axe and rock - don't listen to the gloom mongers and sticklers

I'm not saying he shouldn't play, but he should know the reality of the situation so he can make an informed decision.

And keep in mind that some people don't need to be pushed to have a vendetta against you, jealousy can in many instances be enough; i.e, the wrong girl smiles at you for example.

The girl smiling at you is always the right one

Buy a clue Chris, clearly you don't know what you are talking about, and apparently I'm not the only one on this forum who thinks you are full of something ripe and smelly

[gkinbkk]

I've seen immigration officers arrive halfway through a friend's set and harass him even though he had a WP and had played in the same bar for years.

I've also seen this. Nothing came of it but because a complaint was made the police were obliged to investigate and it was a big hassle for all involved.

@ChristopherWilliamsBKK do you play? Are your comments coming from direct experience? I know that people do play, for free and for payment, without WP's but its important that everyone understands exactly what the consequences could be if a complaint is made...don't you think?

[AmeriThai]

You need a work permit for which you need the right visa etc.

It is possible to get a limited time WP for being a specialist musician but it is a hassle and requires good relations with the immigration and the Labor Department - Work Office (whatever it's called that issues the WP).

Exactly. Big name foreign musicians can play concerts because they have people who deal with making such arrangements. You can entertain guests all you want, as long as it's at your home or theirs and there's no money involved, or at least not made publicly known. But in public businesses, it's a different matter, even if you're playing for free. It's possible to play at a business, but it's a good idea to be aware of the potential risks that go along with it. Claiming ignorance of the law after the fact isn't likely to receive much sympathy or make much difference. TIT.

[SkyRider]

"I've seen immigration officers arrive halfway through a friend's set and harass him even though he had a WP and had played in the same bar for years"

Smokie36 -- What area of Thailand did you see that happen?

[Semper]

Some people are happy with singing whilst taking a shower. No need to leave your room and get harassed by the Immi. guys.

Not sure about the neighbours though.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Semper