Warrant Sought In Connection With Kirsty Jones Murder In Chiang Mai

[geriatrickid]

[

Forensics have already established the DNA samples are reliable, they can match with the suspect when they find him! Why do you keep harping on about DNS profiling is unreliable...Utter nonsence.

GK I think you should shut up now, you are making a fool of yourself

No, the DNA has not been established as being reliable. You are basing your opinion based upon the news reports. Have you seen the DNA analysis? What is the accuracy statement? You cannot answer, because there has been no release of the report, and quite rightfully so because there is an ongoing investigation. However, assumptions are being made that do not match up with the information previously released. initially, Miss Jones was found dead in her room Aree hostel with her sarong wrapped around her neck. The initial forensic tests were blood-group tests using hair samples found on Miss Jones's body. Then, once that did no lead investigators to the killer, the DNA route was selected. A period of time elapsed.

I have not claimed that DNA profiling is unreliable. It is a valuable tool. Rather my position is that it the data has to be properly collected, analyzed and interpreted. If the loci matching only comes up with a 75% or even a 95% match, that is not good enough, particularly if the DNA degraded and there were mixed samples. That's the science of using DNA evidence. You may think I have made a fool of myself, but the position I have taken is accepted science. The only fools are those making assumptions about DNA evidence without the most basic understanding of what is involved. My comments on the Amanda Knox case were ridiculed. However, the Knox case was an example of newspapers and the general public rushing to condemn Ms. Knox on the basis of the DNA alaysis. Yet, the court considered the evidence and tossed it. Maybe Ms. knox was the killer, but the DNA evidence presented as ironclad was proven unreliable.

You'll see if and when this case ever gets to trial.

Edited August 14, 2011 by geriatrickid

[RigPig]

"It is up to you to prove that the criminal court judges that hear cases with DNA forensics/testimony are incapable of understanding it. I can't find any case law that shows they are not."

So in a country where it seen to cause someone to lose face by questioning their knowledge / competency you would dare to imply the person(s) who holds your fate in his / her hands does not understand the intricacies of DNA testing?

In a country where political and judicial offices are granted because of your position in society or that of your friends.

When the testing is only "fully understood" by the people who actually carry out the testing.........

Whilst I admire your belief and commitment to the system, I think that you are naive.

"Justice" is hard enough to find in any judicial system let alone here in Thailand.

DNA "evidence" is subject to so many variations, compilations and situations it should probably be banned full stop. But then the authorities would loose face if they admitted it's full deficiencies and it's potential inaccuracies.

IMHO

[chooka]

Forensics have already established the DNA samples are reliable, they can match with the suspect when they find him! Why do you keep harping on about DNS profiling is unreliable...Utter nonsence.

GK I think you should shut up now, you are making a fool of yourself

Yes, and no .....

The defense does have the right to have the tests run again by another reliable lab. If they do not match the results of the original tests run by the police ... etc ... then there is room for doubt. The claims that DNA results are subjective are no more true than many of the other things I have seen posted .... BUT they must be able to be replicated. That is true.

That is true and why in Australia (3) samples are taken at the one time. The defendant gets his, the police get thiers and one goes to the lab. All samples taken at the one time certified by the alledged, and police and independant witness.

[jdinasia]

"It is up to you to prove that the criminal court judges that hear cases with DNA forensics/testimony are incapable of understanding it. I can't find any case law that shows they are not."

So in a country where it seen to cause someone to lose face by questioning their knowledge / competency you would dare to imply the person(s) who holds your fate in his / her hands does not understand the intricacies of DNA testing?

In a country where political and judicial offices are granted because of your position in society or that of your friends.

When the testing is only "fully understood" by the people who actually carry out the testing.........

Whilst I admire your belief and commitment to the system, I think that you are naive.

"Justice" is hard enough to find in any judicial system let alone here in Thailand.

DNA "evidence" is subject to so many variations, compilations and situations it should probably be banned full stop. But then the authorities would loose face if they admitted it's full deficiencies and it's potential inaccuracies.

IMHO

Could you please cite some instances where the forensic use of DNA has landed someone innocent in jail? I know of one case where a man served 4 years. It was human error not actually the DNA evidence itself. It appears that Australia had some 'human error' issues around the handling of evidence also but nothing like you seem to indicate with the "variations" etc.

The idea that it should be "banned full stop." Or the idea of its inaccuracies doesn't seem to be held by very many people. Even Australia took less a only about a month to deal with the issues they had about handling evidence.

BTW I am unaware of criminal court judges getting their position due to the 'good ole boy' network in Thailand.

I freely acknowledge that you see me as naive, but I think you may be a bit towards a different fringe than I am ..... ) (imho) I also note that you did not give a Thailand example of any judges apparently not understanding the evidence in front of them in DNA related cases. (It would not be kosher to call you out on this if you had to show a case that was not overturned on appeal ... but apparently that hasn't happened in Thailand and is extremely rare anywhere else.

[jdinasia]

I would not willingly provide a DNA sample ever, but just due to civil-liberties issues, I would wait to be compelled by the court.

So in your experience, what is the likelihood a Thai court would compel a DNA sample in this case?

I have no experience with this case nor am I aware of anything but suspicion about the man in question. Him being the third person to be accused in this case doesn't bode well for the courts compelling a DNA sample but they obviously would have more information at their disposal to go on.

[jdinasia]

As far as I know to be a judge here requires only a law degree. Nothing else. You do not ever have to have sat in a court before as a practitioner of law. You will see some 'kids' on the benches regularly.

As for the Thai legal system by all means trust yourself in it, but perhaps I can remind you of the 'Royal decorations case' which lasted over 20 years and during which half the defendants died a natural death, not least their counsel etc. How about going through that without bail?

I'd be interested in knowing more about this! Perhaps you will do a story on Thailand's criminal court judges and their backgrounds?

I found this

4.1.1 Career Judge

Career judges are recruited by the Judicial Commission and are appointed by His Majesty the King. Besides having certain qualifications such as being of Thai nationality, passing the examination of the Thai Bar Association to become a Barrister-at-law, and having not less than two years working experience in legal professions, a candidate must pass a high competitive examination given by the Judicial Commission. Once the candidates are recruited, they have to be trained as judge - trainees for at least one year. Those candidates who complete the training with satisfactory result will be approved by the Judicial Commission and tendered to His Majesty the King for royal appointment to be a judge. A solemn declaration before His Majesty the King is also required before taking office as a judge.

from this website ..... http://www.coj.go.th/eng/thejudiciary.htm#t4.1.4

Edited August 14, 2011 by jdinasia

[RigPig]

"It is up to you to prove that the criminal court judges that hear cases with DNA forensics/testimony are incapable of understanding it. I can't find any case law that shows they are not."

So in a country where it seen to cause someone to lose face by questioning their knowledge / competency you would dare to imply the person(s) who holds your fate in his / her hands does not understand the intricacies of DNA testing?

In a country where political and judicial offices are granted because of your position in society or that of your friends.

When the testing is only "fully understood" by the people who actually carry out the testing.........

Whilst I admire your belief and commitment to the system, I think that you are naive.

"Justice" is hard enough to find in any judicial system let alone here in Thailand.

DNA "evidence" is subject to so many variations, compilations and situations it should probably be banned full stop. But then the authorities would loose face if they admitted it's full deficiencies and it's potential inaccuracies.

IMHO

Could you please cite some instances where the forensic use of DNA has landed someone innocent in jail? I know of one case where a man served 4 years. It was human error not actually the DNA evidence itself. It appears that Australia had some 'human error' issues around the handling of evidence also but nothing like you seem to indicate with the "variations" etc.

The idea that it should be "banned full stop." Or the idea of its inaccuracies doesn't seem to be held by very many people. Even Australia took less a only about a month to deal with the issues they had about handling evidence.

BTW I am unaware of criminal court judges getting their position due to the 'good ole boy' network in Thailand.

I freely acknowledge that you see me as naive, but I think you may be a bit towards a different fringe than I am ..... ) (imho) I also note that you did not give a Thailand example of any judges apparently not understanding the evidence in front of them in DNA related cases. (It would not be kosher to call you out on this if you had to show a case that was not overturned on appeal ... but apparently that hasn't happened in Thailand and is extremely rare anywhere else.

BTW I am unaware of criminal court judges getting their position due to the 'good ole boy' network in Thailand.

And Thaksin is not still running Thailand.....

I also note that you did not give a Thailand example of any judges apparently not understanding the evidence in front of them in DNA related cases.

As stated before children will not even question their teachers in Thailand so how could I when the issue was never and will never be raised due to loss of face?

Here are a couple of articles (links) if I am allowed to place them here that did not take too much searching :

http://www.healthanddna.com/dna-learning/book-5-courtroom.html

http://www.ehow.com/about_6690281_can-cause-dna-test-inaccurate_.html

There are eve more with relation to paternity suits.

There was an Australian documentary on DNA testing some time ago which raised some serious doubts about how the evidence could easily be one sided, "tainted" or planted.

The point I am trying to make is that when DNA "evidence" is bought to a courtroom it is automatically assumed to be conclusive. IT IS NOT. There will if nothing else always be "the human factor".

I am not slurring Thai judges but am trying to point out that no judge can possibly know the intricateness of DNA testing they must rely on what they are told. Usually by the person who conducted the testing.

It is impossible for the defence in a court case to get the actual sample and have their own tests performed, which would possibly result in a different conclusion. As with all statistical analysis the end result is usually determined by what you are looking for. And that is what DNA testing is a statistical analysis.

[jdinasia]

It is impossible for the defence in a court case to get the actual sample and have their own tests performed, which would possibly result in a different conclusion. As with all statistical analysis the end result is usually determined by what you are looking for. And that is what DNA testing is a statistical analysis.

No, it isn't impossible for the defense to get part of the actual sample. If none is made available to the defense then the evidence is likely not going to be admissible. (See your link about 'discovery')

Your statement about children and teachers is simply silly when it comes to courtrooms.

Your links come from paternity issues ... not from identity issues But hey ..... Paternity adds separate issues and does involve statistical analysis beyond the 1 in 300,000,000 range .. but this thread isn't about a paternity suit

[samurai]

RigPig ----

Unlike many/most countries ... in Thailand you don't have to rely upon the 'understanding' of a jury. The judges in criminal cases should be well versed in forensic DNA evidence.

Most countries? Many Countries? Are you sure?

[chaoyang]

I have no experience with this case nor am I aware of anything but suspicion about the man in question. Him being the third person to be accused in this case doesn't bode well for the courts compelling a DNA sample but they obviously would have more information at their disposal to go on.

Unfortunately he is not just the third. I believe the police tried to cast suspicion on the British owner of the guest house (arrested and released), his Thai partner, a trekking guide and some of the other foreigners at the guest house, Recent persistent reports and international pressure led to the testing of the tourist policeman (who DID agree to supply his DNA).

So because the police supplied one red herring after another, the courts might be unwilling to follow up further? Can anyone point me toward a description of what the Australian is actually alleging? The Youtube video has been taken down and I can find no threads containing his reported comments on Thaivisa.

I can only hope that the British Foreign Office has its own Thai investigators that are able to follow up without interference from the police.

Edited August 14, 2011 by chaoyang

[Wallaby]

As far as I am aware a Judge has no need to understand complexities of DNA or any scientific evidence. That is what expert witnesses are for. If defence don't agree with an expert witness then they can use their own to refute it. But a Judge does not have to understand it, and no judges I have met would understand DNA testing. Nor would a jury, for those countries that have juries.

A Judge will decide on the law and a jury will decide on the facts, it is up to defence and prosecution to provide the evidence. But Judge and jury certainly do not need to understand why something is accurate or inaccurate, they either believe one side or the other, as in all types of evidence, it's just credibility.

[andrewdrummond]

As far as I know to be a judge here requires only a law degree. Nothing else. You do not ever have to have sat in a court before as a practitioner of law. You will see some 'kids' on the benches regularly.

As for the Thai legal system by all means trust yourself in it, but perhaps I can remind you of the 'Royal decorations case' which lasted over 20 years and during which half the defendants died a natural death, not least their counsel etc. How about going through that without bail?

I'd be interested in knowing more about this! Perhaps you will do a story on Thailand's criminal court judges and their backgrounds?

I found this

4.1.1 Career Judge

Career judges are recruited by the Judicial Commission and are appointed by His Majesty the King. Besides having certain qualifications such as being of Thai nationality, passing the examination of the Thai Bar Association to become a Barrister-at-law, and having not less than two years working experience in legal professions, a candidate must pass a high competitive examination given by the Judicial Commission. Once the candidates are recruited, they have to be trained as judge - trainees for at least one year. Those candidates who complete the training with satisfactory result will be approved by the Judicial Commission and tendered to His Majesty the King for royal appointment to be a judge. A solemn declaration before His Majesty the King is also required before taking office as a judge.

from this website ..... http://www.coj.go.th...iary.htm#t4.1.4

Thanks for that: It of course does not preclude you from having a rich daddy, being sent to a law school in Utah for a few years, returning ,sitting in your daddy's office, doing the local exams and signing up, and then writing poetry and forcing the whole cout to listen for over an hour - which is one thing I have witnessed. Criticising this would of course be against the law.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Funny. I too guessed it was GK after about a sentence! What's up with the constant negativity? As far as I remember, talking to the doctor at Chiang Mai University who independently extracted the DNA at the time, and please correct me if I am wrong Drummond,it was not only from the sarong, and was extracted in a laboratory of Maharaj Hospital, it undoubtedly belonged to the rapist...details are not appropriate here. I was satisfied with this, the Thai as well as British police were satisfied with this, I am not sure why GK is not! Also the doctor insisted that it was from an Asian male, inspite of police pressure to point it towards whiter men at the time. Showed pretty good integrity to me. If it matches the professor then I have no doubt as to his guilt. If not, then we keep looking and he will be exonerated.

Oh dear. I read half way through this without loooking at the name of the poster and guessed immediately this was a GK post.

Perhaps you could start again armed this information, which is out there.

Both British police and ThaI police have the DNA fingerprint of whom they (British) believe is the killer

This I understand is mainly from the sperm.

The sperm may degrade but the DNA profile will not. Its there forever. That is what will be presented in court, not a sperm stain.

The Thai authorities were able to get a DNA profile, but the Home Office lab, presumably using better resources, got an absolute profile.

(This is not the technical term they used but suffice it to say it was more detailed) The Dyfed-Powys police took material back with them.

Dyfed-Powys police said quite emphatically at the time that they had the DNA profile of the killer. They discounted a suggestion that someone else's sperm (from a gay prostitute or katoey) could have been introduced.

Mr. Drummond if you had a problem understanding basic and accepted facts in respect to DNA evidence then I suggest you consider upgrading your knowledge, Mahidol offers a course in lab techniques. What I posted is accepted knowledge. You claim that the police have the "DNA fingerprint" of the killer. Maybe they do, but it would be an impressive accomplishment to have a reliable DNA identification. My understanding is that the stain sample was taken form the deceased's sarong. Here's the problem and I quote from the standardized specimen collection handbook;

"Bacteria begin to degrade biological fluids immediately after deposition. They especially thrive on the rich nutrients present in semen. Ifunchecked, contaminant bacteria can completely destroy DNA and other genetic markers of value. To counteract this phenomenon in all of the above instances in which moist body fluids are collected, it is imperative that the samples be completely dried. After drying, the specimen(s) should be placed into breathable paper bags or envelopes and frozen or refrigerated until submitted to the laboratory for analysis."

Are you stating that the sarong from which the sample was taken complied with the above stated SOP? At best, the DNA will be able to offer an indication of involvement and can eliminate a suspect. If you think that the DNA alone is going to secure a conviction, you are wrong. This is not how evidence is dealt with in court. And that was my point, which you obviously did not comprehend. Of course the police will say they have a reliable DNA analysis. It is part of the investigator's toolkit. No competent detective is going to say , we have a 75% allele match reliability. However, once someone is charged and faces a court date, and the DNA analysis is provided at Discovery, competent defense counel will retain his/her own DNA analysis and that is where the arguments will start. The murder investigation still relies on the ingenuity and skills of experienced investigators. DNA alone cannot be used to secure absolute certainty of guilt. The investigators will have to build the framework that will allow the DNA to be used.

[Livinginexile]

[

Forensics have already established the DNA samples are reliable, they can match with the suspect when they find him! Why do you keep harping on about DNS profiling is unreliable...Utter nonsence.

GK I think you should shut up now, you are making a fool of yourself

No, the DNA has not been established as being reliable. You are basing your opinion based upon the news reports. Have you seen the DNA analysis? What is the accuracy statement? You cannot answer, because there has been no release of the report, and quite rightfully so because there is an ongoing investigation. However, assumptions are being made that do not match up with the information previously released. initially, Miss Jones was found dead in her room Aree hostel with her sarong wrapped around her neck. The initial forensic tests were blood-group tests using hair samples found on Miss Jones's body. Then, once that did no lead investigators to the killer, the DNA route was selected. A period of time elapsed.

I have not claimed that DNA profiling is unreliable. It is a valuable tool. Rather my position is that it the data has to be properly collected, analyzed and interpreted. If the loci matching only comes up with a 75% or even a 95% match, that is not good enough, particularly if the DNA degraded and there were mixed samples. That's the science of using DNA evidence. You may think I have made a fool of myself, but the position I have taken is accepted science. The only fools are those making assumptions about DNA evidence without the most basic understanding of what is involved. My comments on the Amanda Knox case were ridiculed. However, the Knox case was an example of newspapers and the general public rushing to condemn Ms. Knox on the basis of the DNA alaysis. Yet, the court considered the evidence and tossed it. Maybe Ms. knox was the killer, but the DNA evidence presented as ironclad was proven unreliable.

You'll see if and when this case ever gets to trial.

You almost sound like you would prefer to see the perpetators of this horendous murder go unpunished!

Are you saying that DNA profiling in general needs to be abolished?

You keep bleeting about the Knox case, but how about the other thousand's of proven DNA profiling cases that have rightly put away murderers, rapists, phedophiles etc?

You sound very pasionate about this subject. Do you have a guilty consience per chance?

Edited August 17, 2011 by Livinginexile

[maidu]

DNA may not be a flawless stand-alone tool for a conviction, but it carries weight when added to other types of evidence.

In the OJ case, there was some DNA evidence, but OJ's multimillion dollar defense team shouted it down, and the meek judge acquiesced. Probably wouldn't have mattered in that case, because the jury was shell-shocked by the end of the lengthy trial, and eager just to get out of the courtroom.

If I were an innocent suspect in a murder, and my DNA was requested, I would comply.

[gemini81]

What's stopping the police arresting this guy under suspicion of murder just like they did with the farang guest house owner?

Think I'd have collected his gum, cigarettes, or gotten some seriosu revenge after all this time!

[Buchholz]

Kirsty Jones' mother in Thailand murder appeal

Full story: http://www.thaivisa....-murder-appeal/

//CLOSED//

Edited August 4, 2012 by webfact
/topic runs already in Chiang Mai forum