Stop The Dog Meat Trade Petition

[Tywais]

For the naysayers, it appears there are caring Thai's out there: 12 Million Baht Donated for rescued dogs

[Mosha]

Apologies to the naysayers, but on the heels of my dog disappearing, and finding this link. I felt it appropriate. If people would have there bitches spayed, it costs 10 packets of cigs in Ranong. Then they wouldn't have as much of a stray problem. We get kittens dumped on my wife's land every year. These aren't poor people.

[geriatrickid]

I wonder at the sad lives some people must have if the best that they can do is to ridicule those that support the goal of the petition, which is to stop the cruel practices common to the dog meat trade. My experience has been that the people that are able to demonstrate compassion on issues such as this are most often the ones that volunteer with charities and that donate whatever they can as well. Remember that, the next time you are in a car crash or the hospital and a kind soul takes an interest. I suppose there will always be some that will ridicule those with jai dee. I an grateful to those that have made an effort to be kind to other living creatures and to share chuuen jai. Thank you for trying to make this little bit of the world a better place.

[wandrinstar]

I wonder at the sad lives some people must have if the best that they can do is to ridicule those that support the goal of the petition, which is to stop the cruel practices common to the dog meat trade. My experience has been that the people that are able to demonstrate compassion on issues such as this are most often the ones that volunteer with charities and that donate whatever they can as well. Remember that, the next time you are in a car crash or the hospital and a kind soul takes an interest. I suppose there will always be some that will ridicule those with jai dee. I an grateful to those that have made an effort to be kind to other living creatures and to share chuuen jai. Thank you for trying to make this little bit of the world a better place.

I don't see much ridicule here. I see well meaning misguided Folk.Shaming The Swiss rank and file wont shame the Bankers.Plus Anties Banners get balanced Folks backs up, regardless of the cause. For example,Anti Fox Hunt has an element that dislike the Hunters Lifestyle, and plays a big part in their Sabotage efforts, its not just the Fox. Many accidents are caused by strays here, Ferangs Swerve by instinct, Thais try only a bit..There no Civic Dog Catching Vans here, or Animal Insurance,These Catchers don't take Pets with Collars, they walk round Villages asking the Residents. generally.We all hate cruelty, but i cant see this action other than Woolly Logic.

[sbk]

I do see what looks to me like more inflammatory baiting and trolling with pointless off topic comments that add nothing to the conversation. Those have now been deleted.

So, in light of my previous warning, I will reiterate that these kinds of posts will now result in more than mere deletion. I do hope that's clear to those who can't have a rational discussion without trolling.

[PattayaParent]

Well I'm from Sai Gon and can tell you there are some mightily pished off restauranteurs here.

Ha Noi too, I was wondering why the prices had gone up in my favourite dog restaurant in Ha Noi last week.

[Dag]

If the goal of the petition is to stop the cruelty within the dog meat trade....then fine.....but the petition is about stopping the dog meat trade in its entirety isn't it ??

Similar to the cattle export trade bans within Oz recently to Indonesia and the cruelty displayed in 'some' videos that halted hundreds of millions in trade.

Stop the cruelty, not the trade.

SBK goes on about posts being removed.....but is unable to see the difference in discussion as to why should the dog trade be stopped when the very same instances occur in other meat industries....just not the loveable little puppy dogs.....but ugly pigs, smelly cows and such is fine.........some very narrow minded people in here.

If dog can be consumed in a certain culture...why not ? Turtle, Dugong, kangaroo and so on are within Australia's indigenous population and it is accepted as ok by most......yet I have witnessed Dugong babies crying on beaches after a club or 2 to attract the mothers from their cries......then both are killed.......and sea turtles left upside down in the sun for days on end.........no petitions about that and in fact it is all accepted within the delicate and very fragile indigenous community by the rule makers feeling sorry for the past cliff hanging discrepancies.

[sbk]

Discussion of moderation will earn you another warning. The posts removed did not contribute to a sane discussion in any manner. Trolling will not be tolerated.

[F1fanatic]

Should it have any financial affect,the poor Thais suffer. They CARE,and show it by Yearly Sterilisation and Vacine Injection Programs in even the poorest villages. But you Anties would have them shamed.Not well thought out is it.

Really? First I've heard about it.

As far as I know its only the animal charities that a) round up stray dogs to sterilise them and visit different areas every now and again offering a free neutering service for their pets.

Neutering is expensive for the average Thai budget and vaccinations even more so.

[F1fanatic]

For the naysayers, it appears there are caring Thai's out there: 12 Million Baht Donated for rescued dogs

Call me a cynic, but I suspect most of the donations came from Westerners....

[sbk]

The free sterilization is generally offered but it is not surgery, it is the injection which causes cancer in the female dog. Free rabies injections are also on offer and have been for many years.

[F1fanatic]

The free sterilization is generally offered but it is not surgery, it is the injection which causes cancer in the female dog. Free rabies injections are also on offer and have been for many years.

Thank you, that makes more sense.

Presumably the free rabies injections are starting to work as Phuket has been rabies-free for a few years. Admittedly its easier for Phuket as (like Britain), its an island.

[LeCharivari]

I am against the eating of dogs, and the trade that goes with it. .....

Be realistic, please.

Agreed 100%, IB, but the problem is that realism and objectivity don't seem to apply here.

I have eaten most things from bat to rat, camel to kangaroo and snake to slug - mostly when it was all that was available or it was a cultural delicacy. The only exception is dog, but that is a personal choice. I am fortunate enough to be in a position to be able to make that choice, and to choose what I eat (more or less) - not everyone can afford to be so choosy.

I respect anyone who doesn't eat dog because they are a vegan. I respect anyone who doesn't eat dog because it is against their religion (many Buddhists believe that people can be reincarnated as dogs (and elephants)). I respect anyone who doesn't eat dog because they think dogs and people have a "special relationship".

I respect anyone who abhors the cruelty involved in the dog trade as it exists, as there is no excuse for cruelty to any animals whether they are wild, tame or bred or captured for human consumption. It is simply inexcusable.

I disagree with the petition, though, and would never sign it, for 2 simple reasons:

1. I live here, have done so for several years, and would not leave purely because "the dog meat trade" continues - something that anyone signing the petition says they will do. If they don't do so they shouldn't be signing this particular petition.

2. The petition does nothing about clarifying what it means by stopping the dog meat trade - does it mean the "cruel practice" of how the dogs are transported and killed, or does it mean the consumption and trade of dog meat? The two are totally different issues.

What I find particularly strange, though not particularly surprising, is that there is more outrage and interest in this particular incident here and more foreign "petitions" being organised than there was about the Tak Bai incident when 78 Thai Muslims died after being transported in trucks in a very similar way.

[F1fanatic]

The Tak Bai horror is truly appalling and there is no justification.

But, at least they knew what they were doing and what was happening to them - unforgivable as it is.

Dogs on the other hand have not done anything (even protesting for a cause) to deserve this treatment and have absolutely no idea what is going on. They are just terrified.

[LeCharivari]

This incident has been headline news in the Thai language press and on Thai TV every night this week. They really don't need a group of foreigners, however well-meaning, to make them aware of the situation and to tell them what they should be dong about it - particularly when the "solution" to stray dogs in those same foreigners' home countries consists of nothing more than rounding them up, taking them out of sight and killing them.

[LeCharivari]

The free sterilization is generally offered but it is not surgery, it is the injection which causes cancer in the female dog.

The injection was believed to cause cancer 20 years ago or more, but this has been proven not to be the case, at least with Spayvac (for females) and Neutersol (for males). In Thailand it is mainly bitches that are neutered with Spayvac under the free sterilization programmes, as this is more effective than neutering males and Neutersol (or its equivalent) is expensive - more than the cost of a full operation.

While neutered females have a 5 times greater risk of cardiac tumors than intact females, and spayed males a 2.5 times greater risk as well as a slightly higher risk of prostate cancer (2% rather than 0.5%), that increased risk is more than balanced out by the reduced risk of mammary cancer in females: intact females have a 7 times higher risk of mammary cancer than neutered females, and over half the mammary cancers are malignant and fatal. This applies whether the dogs are neutered by injection or by operation.

[F1fanatic]

The free sterilization is generally offered but it is not surgery, it is the injection which causes cancer in the female dog.

The injection was believed to cause cancer 20 years ago or more, but this has been proven not to be the case, at least with Spayvac (for females) and Neutersol (for males). In Thailand it is mainly bitches that are neutered with Spayvac under the free sterilization programmes, as this is more effective than neutering males and Neutersol (or its equivalent) is expensive - more than the cost of a full operation.

While neutered females have a 5 times greater risk of cardiac tumors than intact females, and spayed males a 2.5 times greater risk as well as a slightly higher risk of prostate cancer (2% rather than 0.5%), that increased risk is more than balanced out by the reduced risk of mammary cancer in females: intact females have a 7 times higher risk of mammary cancer than neutered females, and over half the mammary cancers are malignant and fatal. This applies whether the dogs are neutered by injection or by operation.

Either way, I'm still v impressed that villagers pay for this to be done to the local stray population, proving they care enough to pay out of their pockets to prevent unwanted dogs being born (as per Wandrinstar's post).

News to me, but I'm sure he's right.

[bangkokrick]

Since when has mistreating dogs been considered to be part of the Thai culture. Many Thais are very upset about this trade and it appears that they are trying to help through donations.

[Gary A]

I'd rather see the dogs killed humanely and butchered than die of starvation or be beaten to death by a villager because they killed a chicken to eat. Of course having them neutered is the best way but that unfortunately isn't going to happen.

Out here in the boonies, we see the bucket truck come around about once a week. We call it the bucket truck because they will trade a bucket for an unwanted dog. I absolutely hate to see the truck full of dogs and my dog goes absolutely ballistic way before the truck comes in sight.

I truly wish there were a different way to handle unwanted dogs but it is a difficult situation.

[TinaKohChang]

If the goal of the petition is to stop the cruelty within the dog meat trade....then fine.....but the petition is about stopping the dog meat trade in its entirety isn't it ??

Similar to the cattle export trade bans within Oz recently to Indonesia and the cruelty displayed in 'some' videos that halted hundreds of millions in trade.

Stop the cruelty, not the trade.

SBK goes on about posts being removed.....but is unable to see the difference in discussion as to why should the dog trade be stopped when the very same instances occur in other meat industries....just not the loveable little puppy dogs.....but ugly pigs, smelly cows and such is fine.........some very narrow minded people in here.

If dog can be consumed in a certain culture...why not ? Turtle, Dugong, kangaroo and so on are within Australia's indigenous population and it is accepted as ok by most......yet I have witnessed Dugong babies crying on beaches after a club or 2 to attract the mothers from their cries......then both are killed.......and sea turtles left upside down in the sun for days on end.........no petitions about that and in fact it is all accepted within the delicate and very fragile indigenous community by the rule makers feeling sorry for the past cliff hanging discrepancies.

@Dag: "..just not the loveable little puppy dogs...", it is not about the lovely little or bigger puppy dogs (Huskies, Malamutes, Retrievers etc. pp) puppy dogs, it also is about the 'ugly, smelly soi dogs' no one cares about or wanna have - PEERIOD!

[corkman]

1. The signature of a farang is not worth anything to Thai's. We are insolent, arrogant, usurpers and our opinion is poison to them.

2. So long as the animals are treated and processed in a humaine way, I have no problem with them being eaten (although I wouldn't eat it). They are animals, just the same as fish, pigs, chikens, cows, horses, crocodiles, ostriches, or grasshoppers. No one is putting out petitions for grasshoppers now, are they?

[corkman]

I am against the eating of dogs, and the trade that goes with it. .....

Be realistic, please.

Agreed 100%, IB, but the problem is that realism and objectivity don't seem to apply here.

I have eaten most things from bat to rat, camel to kangaroo and snake to slug - mostly when it was all that was available or it was a cultural delicacy. The only exception is dog, but that is a personal choice. I am fortunate enough to be in a position to be able to make that choice, and to choose what I eat (more or less) - not everyone can afford to be so choosy.

I respect anyone who doesn't eat dog because they are a vegan. I respect anyone who doesn't eat dog because it is against their religion (many Buddhists believe that people can be reincarnated as dogs (and elephants)). I respect anyone who doesn't eat dog because they think dogs and people have a "special relationship".

I respect anyone who abhors the cruelty involved in the dog trade as it exists, as there is no excuse for cruelty to any animals whether they are wild, tame or bred or captured for human consumption. It is simply inexcusable.

I disagree with the petition, though, and would never sign it, for 2 simple reasons:

1. I live here, have done so for several years, and would not leave purely because "the dog meat trade" continues - something that anyone signing the petition says they will do. If they don't do so they shouldn't be signing this particular petition.

2. The petition does nothing about clarifying what it means by stopping the dog meat trade - does it mean the "cruel practice" of how the dogs are transported and killed, or does it mean the consumption and trade of dog meat? The two are totally different issues.

What I find particularly strange, though not particularly surprising, is that there is more outrage and interest in this particular incident here and more foreign "petitions" being organised than there was about the Tak Bai incident when 78 Thai Muslims died after being transported in trucks in a very similar way.

That is a truly outstanding post. Rarely do we see such well composed prose. I agree 100%. Well done.

[sbk]

The free sterilization is generally offered but it is not surgery, it is the injection which causes cancer in the female dog.

The injection was believed to cause cancer 20 years ago or more, but this has been proven not to be the case, at least with Spayvac (for females) and Neutersol (for males). In Thailand it is mainly bitches that are neutered with Spayvac under the free sterilization programmes, as this is more effective than neutering males and Neutersol (or its equivalent) is expensive - more than the cost of a full operation.

While neutered females have a 5 times greater risk of cardiac tumors than intact females, and spayed males a 2.5 times greater risk as well as a slightly higher risk of prostate cancer (2% rather than 0.5%), that increased risk is more than balanced out by the reduced risk of mammary cancer in females: intact females have a 7 times higher risk of mammary cancer than neutered females, and over half the mammary cancers are malignant and fatal. This applies whether the dogs are neutered by injection or by operation.

Actually this has not been my experience nor that of the vet who treated my dogs who died from cancer after receiving this injection. I suggest that you are making statements based on very limited knowledge and that my veterinarian who has treated many of the dogs who received these injections and developed cancer from them is probably a bit more knowledgeable than you has a better idea of it.

[canuckamuck]

Well I'm from Sai Gon and can tell you there are some mightily pished off restauranteurs here.

Only joking, or maybe not.

Thing is there was a letter in the paper that shall not be mentioned going on about the strays should all be rounded up, neutered/spayed and found good homes or some similar scheme.

Fine sentiments however it fails to fulfill one basic criteria. The plan does not make money unless people are charged for the dogs they take in therefore very few will be taken in. Rounding them up and exporting them over here makes a few dollars for very little investment.

You don't need an MBA in business studies to see which one is the better investment in Thai eyes.

Sure it would be nice if all the little doggies were looked after and lived long and happy lives but that doesn't even happen in the west.

As for boycotting Thailand for the stray dogs for food trade what about all the endangered species that get trucked up through the country en route to Chinese dining tables? What about a boycott against Thailand, amongst others, for the traffiking of human beings?

Mr Harries, your post reeks of reality and common sense. Please show more consideration in the future.

[F1fanatic]

Well I'm from Sai Gon and can tell you there are some mightily pished off restauranteurs here.

Only joking, or maybe not.

Thing is there was a letter in the paper that shall not be mentioned going on about the strays should all be rounded up, neutered/spayed and found good homes or some similar scheme.

Fine sentiments however it fails to fulfill one basic criteria. The plan does not make money unless people are charged for the dogs they take in therefore very few will be taken in. Rounding them up and exporting them over here makes a few dollars for very little investment.

You don't need an MBA in business studies to see which one is the better investment in Thai eyes.

Sure it would be nice if all the little doggies were looked after and lived long and happy lives but that doesn't even happen in the west.

As for boycotting Thailand for the stray dogs for food trade what about all the endangered species that get trucked up through the country en route to Chinese dining tables? What about a boycott against Thailand, amongst others, for the traffiking of human beings?

Mr Harries, your post reeks of reality and common sense. Please show more consideration in the future.

Your post is similar to Corkman's - they boil down to how dare anybody care about animal cruelty when humans are suffering.

As I posted previously, I have nothing against people eating dogs (or at least nothing more than I have against people eating any animal) as long as the dogs/animals are raised and killed in a way that causes them no suffering.

However, animals enduring the treatment that started this topic is NOT something suffered by people. Yes, people die from human trafficing when too many are stuffed into a small area - after having paid (one way or another) to be transported to another country where they believe they will get more money. They know what is going on - animals have no idea or choice in the matter.

Humans are treated just as badly in other ways sometimes, but that is because WE let the 'powers that be' get away with it. Animals have no choice once people get involved...

But of course, as the 'highest' life form on the planet (and we prove it every day by the way animals are treated), we are far superior to every other animal and their life is far less important than ours.

[kevc]

Another Ferang with stupid idea.We will be overun with them. Some cant afford much else.

Another Farang with a stupid response as well, have you ever seen what these dogs go through I have before they get their legs tied behind their backs and bundled into a sack and carted off home to have their throats slit. I'm an out and out animal lover and I would gladly kill these dogs myself before letting them start out on that journey.

[LeCharivari]

The free sterilization is generally offered but it is not surgery, it is the injection which causes cancer in the female dog.

The injection was believed to cause cancer 20 years ago or more, but this has been proven not to be the case, at least with Spayvac (for females) and Neutersol (for males). In Thailand it is mainly bitches that are neutered with Spayvac under the free sterilization programmes, as this is more effective than neutering males and Neutersol (or its equivalent) is expensive - more than the cost of a full operation.

While neutered females have a 5 times greater risk of cardiac tumors than intact females, and spayed males a 2.5 times greater risk as well as a slightly higher risk of prostate cancer (2% rather than 0.5%), that increased risk is more than balanced out by the reduced risk of mammary cancer in females: intact females have a 7 times higher risk of mammary cancer than neutered females, and over half the mammary cancers are malignant and fatal. This applies whether the dogs are neutered by injection or by operation.

Actually this has not been my experience nor that of the vet who treated my dogs who died from cancer after receiving this injection. I suggest that you are making statements based on very limited knowledge and that my veterinarian who has treated many of the dogs who received these injections and developed cancer from them is probably a bit more knowledgeable than you has a better idea of it.

I would be the first to admit that my knowledge is "limited", though it is probably more than some and less than others. I am not, however, talking from personal experience or knowledge but echoing the view of the RSPCA in the UK and Australia, the PDSA and NCDL in the UK as well as the military and the police, and the SPCA and USDA Wildlife Service who have been using Spayvac on everything from wild deer and horses to grey seals. It is widely used by vets and animal hospitals and as far as I am aware (although I am always open to correction, particularly if it is documented) there have been no reported cases of it causing cancer in any animals.

Spayvac is totally different from the old-style tablets and injections used as an alternative to spaying; these controlled the dogs hormones for a relatively brief period and usually had to be repeated whenever a season was due. Spayvac not only lasts for up to 10 years but it works in a totally different way, by preventing sperm from binding to the bitch's eggs rather than controlling estrogen levels.

I am not doubting your vet's experience in any way, but I would be interested to know if this is based on dogs which were given injections for hormone control (which are widely acknowledged to be carcinogenic) or dogs injected with Spayvac - there is no comparison between the two.

[TinaKohChang]

To all you negative posters to this, watch the attached video link and than come back here and repeat your sayings, CAN YOU??????? the same torture, just that this is China, but it happends same way in Viet Nam and elsewhere in Asia!!!!

Edited August 23, 2011 by TinaKohChang