Sor Por Kor & Usufruct

[monktao]

I thought that was answered in post #27.

I try to keep up with the pace..... Lot of interest going on here

[monktao]

If you were to make any written agreement with this lady (perhaps with the unlawful compliance of the village headman), anyone else who got hold of a copy could present it to the local land office where the land would be re-assigned to another local villager.

How much plainer can it be said!

Locals do appear to trade the land amongst themselves by contract supervised by the village headman.

But I was lead to believe the land office could over-rule such deals and again reassign the land to someone else.

Thank you Ludditeman .

I appreciate the sharing of your personal experience.

My friend got her land from the neighbour who let her 4 and 2 Rai adjacent parcel of land as he needed cash to start a milk farm. If he didn't need the money, he wouldn't have sold to her (although I don't understand this either as normally these kind of land can't be sold).

She reunited the land into one with clear boundaries recorded on the plan that is with the land registry (as far as I understood).

Before I start building, she told the village head that the house I will build is for meditation purpose, which is actually true and so far, no one has stopped us although I'm sure that what you say is right, if the land registry wants to claim it, they probably could.

If I understand right, you suggest that we don't involve the village head in our contract agreement as this can result of her loosing her land?

Edited August 23, 2011 by monktao

[monktao]

How much cost a 30 year lease on 1/4 of a Rai or so and a pair of trainers? I only wear tong shoes.

1/4 Rai is 100 talad wah. Depends on what area.

Thanks Snarky66.

Do you know what could be the cost of a 30 years lease of 100 talad?

[InterestedObserver]

For any agreement exceeding three years involving immovable property, i.e. land, to be legal it must be registered at the local Land Office and recorded on the back of the title deed (Chanote). See Thai Civil and Commercial Code, Section 538.

[ludditeman]

I appreciate the sharing of your personal experience.

My friend got her land from the neighbour who let her 4 and 2 Rai adjacent parcel of land as he needed cash to start a milk farm. If he didn't need the money, he wouldn't have sold to her (although I don't understand this either as normally these kind of land can't be sold).

Yes, as I said they do seem to do deals among themselves by contract with the head man, I guess one local dealing with another local is unlikely to be subject of complaint.

If I understand right, you suggest that we don't involve the village head in our contract agreement as this can result of her loosing her land?

Everyone in the village will already know what is going on, if she is a good and genuine friend, you might never have a problem with your verbal agreement.

Nothing to stop a local lady let a friend build her a house, nothing to stop a local lady having a foreign friend living in her house.

The problems are likely to occur if

1) She decides to not be your friend any more.

2) She was never your friend in the first place.

3) Another local gets hold of an illegal land agreement and decides to make a problem.

Of course headman/police /land office/local thugs could also be your friends with the right incentive even if the lady (or anyone else) did make a problem.

And the house you had built is still your property even if your last resort were to eventually remove it from the land with the help of a box of matches.

As we have seen from other recent posters, 30 year lease, business owning land, usafunct have all been easily defeated, a piece of paper does not help you hold onto a home in Thailand.

Your best bet IMHO

Buy yourself a local village girl, marry her at the Amphur office, produce a child that is born in the local hospital, pay wife for 100% custody of child on mutual agreed divorce. Put the land and house in the child's name by contract with Head man after divorce. Then it will be Thai family court Vs all comers for the land over the next 20 years. I think Thai family court will win.

Cold, calculating, heartless and morally reprehensible but doable and reasonably cheap.

I'm only reporting the results of my inquiries, I may be wrong, been given incorrect advice, not been here long.

Edited August 23, 2011 by ludditeman

[monktao]

Lots of gratitude toward InterestedObserver for his kind help, patience and committment, stgrhe for sharing an aspect of the Thai law that many are waiting for to manifest, thunder30101 for his warning and advice to wake up before my money is gone (I met you too late though as my money IS already gone. Will use the advice for an other time where money is involved!), steelepulse for his advice on practising detachment and letting go of my house and the 600.000 Bahts already invested (true Rastaman), meatboy for his injunction to change my 37 years habit of walking with open shoes and exercise my heart by running fast, MJCM, for making me realise that TV is not only an abbreviation for Television, snarky66 for the precision of his comments and ludditeman for his experience sharing that reflects so much my personal issue and comfort me with the knowledge that other people have investigate these kind of issues very closely.

To ALL of you a deep Thank You. You have been helpful.

Please come again if I'm asking for more help.

Much Loving Kindness

[meatboy]

^ What he means with TV is Thai Visa and not Television

Thanks for the rectification

but he can be exscused he is a nb,for monktao that is new member.

[steelepulse]

Unfortunately I missed the part where the construction was already completed. When I saw the cost for the new contractor was 5X greater, I thought it was an estimate, not that it was already done. Seeing as the house is now completed, you might as well stay as long as you can and only walk away when trouble comes a knocking.

[katabeachbum]

For any agreement exceeding three years involving immovable property, i.e. land, to be legal it must be registered at the local Land Office and recorded on the back of the title deed (Chanote). See Thai Civil and Commercial Code, Section 538.

yep, I guess OPs best shot is to enter a 3 year non reg prepaid lease, have a friend enter a 3 year non reg prepaid lease when 1st lease expire, and so on. One problem will be how long owners ID card is valid.

[lannarebirth]

For any agreement exceeding three years involving immovable property, i.e. land, to be legal it must be registered at the local Land Office and recorded on the back of the title deed (Chanote). See Thai Civil and Commercial Code, Section 538.

yep, I guess OPs best shot is to enter a 3 year non reg prepaid lease, have a friend enter a 3 year non reg prepaid lease when 1st lease expire, and so on. One problem will be how long owners ID card is valid.

I don't think you can register a lease on Sor Por Kor land. If I were in the OP's position I would write up a document stating he agrees to build the owner a house, in return for the owner allowing him the first 10 years occupancy. That may be legal or not, but if the owner has a change of heart at least it would be likely subject to the slow moving Thai court system and the owner would incur costs. 600,00 Bt over 10 years works out to 5,000 Bt/mo expense. Could be worse.

Edited August 24, 2011 by lannarebirth

[InterestedObserver]

I don't think you can register a lease on Sor Por Kor land.

You can't. That's the point and futility of the entire legally binding agreement issue. The Land Office will refuse to register such an agreement.

[katabeachbum]

I don't think you can register a lease on Sor Por Kor land.

You can't. That's the point and futility of the entire legally binding agreement issue. The Land Office will refuse to register such an agreement.

you cant. and thats why I would go x times 3 year non reg leases with different lessees

if you go one 10 year, its easily canselled by court in few months, as it would be tax avoiding and illegal

[monktao]

Dear Helpers,

Thanks again for your suggestions, advices and overall concern about the situation I'm in.

Your lights of different colours coming from different angles have shaped the following picture:

If its not illegal for my Thai friend, owner of a Sor Por Kor land that her parents cultivate, to build a pair of houses – her parents built one for them and me one for me but it could be her own and will be at some stage) and invite a friend to live in it (me, to practice meditation and retreat), then from this perspective, all is well.

My friend (not a girlfriend) and I, agreed to sign a contract where I can use the land free of charge – I just pay the electricity bill for the all land including the water pump for the crops and her parents house consumption + mine – for a period of 10 years (I want to renegotiate the length, 10 years is a bit short for me, she is ok so far).

Mentioning on the contract that I build HER house and not mine, as suggested by lannarebirth sounds a good idea to me, and in compensation, she will let me use it for at least 12 years (once finished, the house would have cost around 800.000 Bahts).

If this kind of contract can bind us legally, that would be good but I have no clue about the legality of such thing.

If not possible, our contract will be based only on trust and our word.

I would trust her word but I'm concerned by her family members putting pressure on her to get this house back for their own use.

So if some kind of legal agreement could be made, preventing the family members to even think about getting the house for them, I would really be in PEACE in my retreat :jap:.

Every suggestion about the possibility of such legal agreement, how to proceed (only with the village head or with a lawyer), etc… will be welcome.

Edited August 24, 2011 by monktao

[kimmy]

MonkTao, one day the Buddha was sitting on a beach in Thailand with thirty foreigners who owned nothing. They had an excellent lunch and they were enjoying the company of each other. There was an expat passing by and the expat was very unhappy. The expat said, "Buddha, fellow foreigners, I'm so unhappy. I have invested all my savings in this house in Thailand and now I don't know why I’m losing it. I suffer so much I think I am going to kill myself. The Buddha said, "My friend, it is not wise to bring any money into Thailand you do not want to lose."

The expat walked away and the Buddha turned to the foreigners without assets in Thailand and said, "My dear friends, you are the happiest people in the world. You don't have any homes to lose. If you have too many possessions in Thailand to take care of, you will be very busy. That is why, in order to be happy, you have to learn the art of not owning anything in Thailand. You release the ideas of possessions in Thailand one by one. In the beginning you thought that those possessions were essential to your happiness, and you tried to get more and more assets in Thailand. But now you realize that those Thai assets are not really conditions for your happiness here; they constitute an obstacle for your happiness. That is why you are determined to give up the idea of owning anything in Thailand."

Master Thich Nhat Hanh

[ludditeman]

Papa Roach says

There's no money. There's no possessions,

only obsession. I don't need that shit.

Take my money, take my obsession.

-♫-

(Verse 1)-I just want to be heard loud and clear are my words.

Coming from within man tell them what you heard.

It's about a revolution in your heart and in your mind

you can find a conclusion. Lifestyle and obsession.

Diamond rings get you nothing but a life long lesson

And your pocketbooks stressing

You're a slave to the system working jobs that you hate

For that shit you don't need

It's too bad the world is based on greed.

Step back and see.

Stop thinking about yourself start thinking about..

There's no money there's no possession only

Obsession I don't need that shit

Take my money take my possession take my obsession

I don't need that shit

-♫-

Because everything is nothing

And emptiness is in everything

This reality is really just a fuc_ked up dream

With the flesh and the blood that you call your soul

Flip it inside out it's a big black hole.

Take your money burn it up like an asteroid.

Possessions: they are never gonna feel the void.

Take it away and learn the best lesson

The heart, the soul, the life, the passion.

There's no money there's no possession

Only obsession I don't need that shit

Take my money take my possession take my obsession

I don't need that shit.

Money. possessions. obsession.

-♫-

Present yourself.press your clothes comb your hair.

Clock in.

You just can't win just can't win

And the things you own own you

Now!

-♫-

Take my money take my possession take my obsession

I don't need that shit

fuc_k your money fuc_k your possession fuc_k your

Obsession I don't need that shit.

Money, possession, obsession, I don't need that shit.

[monktao]

Papa Roach says

There's no money. There's no possessions,

only obsession. I don't need that shit.

Take my money, take my obsession.

-♫-

(Verse 1)-I just want to be heard loud and clear are my words.

Coming from within man tell them what you heard.

It's about a revolution in your heart and in your mind

you can find a conclusion. Lifestyle and obsession.

Diamond rings get you nothing but a life long lesson

And your pocketbooks stressing

You're a slave to the system working jobs that you hate

For that shit you don't need

It's too bad the world is based on greed.

Step back and see.

Stop thinking about yourself start thinking about..

There's no money there's no possession only

Obsession I don't need that shit

Take my money take my possession take my obsession

I don't need that shit

-♫-

Because everything is nothing

And emptiness is in everything

This reality is really just a fuc_ked up dream

With the flesh and the blood that you call your soul

Flip it inside out it's a big black hole.

Take your money burn it up like an asteroid.

Possessions: they are never gonna feel the void.

Take it away and learn the best lesson

The heart, the soul, the life, the passion.

There's no money there's no possession

Only obsession I don't need that shit

Take my money take my possession take my obsession

I don't need that shit.

Money. possessions. obsession.

-♫-

Present yourself.press your clothes comb your hair.

Clock in.

You just can't win just can't win

And the things you own own you

Now!

-♫-

Take my money take my possession take my obsession

I don't need that shit

fuc_k your money fuc_k your possession fuc_k your

Obsession I don't need that shit.

Money, possession, obsession, I don't need that shit.

Where can i meet Papa Roach?

Edited August 25, 2011 by monktao

[monktao]

MonkTao, one day the Buddha was sitting on a beach in Thailand with thirty foreigners who owned nothing. They had an excellent lunch and they were enjoying the company of each other. There was an expat passing by and the expat was very unhappy. The expat said, "Buddha, fellow foreigners, I'm so unhappy. I have invested all my savings in this house in Thailand and now I don't know why I'm losing it. I suffer so much I think I am going to kill myself. The Buddha said, "My friend, it is not wise to bring any money into Thailand you do not want to lose."

The expat walked away and the Buddha turned to the foreigners without assets in Thailand and said, "My dear friends, you are the happiest people in the world. You don't have any homes to lose. If you have too many possessions in Thailand to take care of, you will be very busy. That is why, in order to be happy, you have to learn the art of not owning anything in Thailand. You release the ideas of possessions in Thailand one by one. In the beginning you thought that those possessions were essential to your happiness, and you tried to get more and more assets in Thailand. But now you realize that those Thai assets are not really conditions for your happiness here; they constitute an obstacle for your happiness. That is why you are determined to give up the idea of owning anything in Thailand."

Master Thich Nhat Hanh

So the Buddha already knew about Thailand! Ok I got the message. Seems to be a recurrent one. Some truth should live there.

Even not a second hand motorbike to commute? Let's imagine that I'm not short of happiness and ready to take a try on a motorbike, any advice on insurance company that could insure a 110 Honda and any issue related to not having an International licence while spending a couple of months in Thailand? (I don’t rent this time as I need a sidecar with the bike to carry my family).

[kimmy]

Ain't Got No.. I've Got Life

[g00dgirl]

Your best bet IMHO

Buy yourself a local village girl, marry her at the Amphur office, produce a child that is born in the local hospital, pay wife for 100% custody of child on mutual agreed divorce. Put the land and house in the child's name by contract with Head man after divorce. Then it will be Thai family court Vs all comers for the land over the next 20 years. I think Thai family court will win.

Cold, calculating, heartless and morally reprehensible but doable and reasonably cheap.

I'm only reporting the results of my inquiries, I may be wrong, been given incorrect advice, not been here long.

ludditeman, I am interested in your post because I already have a son who is Thai national and I am interested in rubber land in Surat Thani in his name, close to the land of his fathers family who all own rubber land there.

Questions for you:

* What if the child was born in another province and is currently registered in a rental property in another province? If I transfer his registration to his grandparents house in Surat, would that be enough or is it even really necessary?

* I have not been married so I already have sole custody, is this a problem?

My interests are genuine, I want to make sure my son has some land for his future. It is better than leaving money in the bank. I don't want to speculate with it, resell it, just keep the profits and land for my son.

A lot of reasons in favor of the investment:

- I can part with the money and our life doesn't depend on it or the income.

- There are many relatives, families in this area and they all have own rubber and palm land

- The family is willing to look after the rubber tapping and selling and that's what they have been doing for a long time

The land is Sor Por Kor, but I told relatives I only want it if we can get a proper title document in my sons name, they are investigating this now, but it might not be possible.

They said the security is that all the relatives live here and nobody could take it away. I believe that and I have a good relationship to the family, but I think unless it's a chanote there is a risk the government might want the land back sometime in the future.

Edited September 25, 2011 by g00dgirl

[ludditeman]

If everyone considers the kid a local, I would chance it.

200-500k would not be a bad bet IMHO