Overheads For Running A Small Bar

[5ky]

I am particulary interested in renting/buying a small bar on one of the more undeveloped islands. Obviously there is the key money, the rent, working visa and utilities BUT what other overheads are there ??

I am particulary worried about the cost of running a Thai Ltd company, as the profit margin would be quite small.

Any advice is welcome ....

[PoorSucker]

This is what bar owners pay on Koh Samui

Depends on the lawyer/account you will use.

Some charge high accounting fee but less for fixing WP and Non-B papers.

The Personal income tax is based on a 30.000 baht salary that is minimum on Koh Samui for getting a WP.

Personal income Tax: 1000 baht / month

Accounting Fee: 500-1000 baht / month

Work permit: 4000-8000 baht / year.

Paper work to get multiple entry non-B in Kuala Lumpur: 5000-6000 baht / year

Border run: 2000 baht / 3 months.

Visa run: 15.000 baht / 15 months.

Annual result and balance sheets and auditing: 18.000 baht / year

Edited August 20, 2011 by PoorSucker

[Soutpeel]

This is what bar owners pay on Koh Samui

Depends on the lawyer/account you will use.

Some charge high accounting fee but less for fixing WP and Non-B papers.

The Personal income tax is based on a 30.000 baht salary that is minimum on Koh Samui for getting a WP.

Personal income Tax: 1000 baht / month

Accounting Fee: 500-1000 baht / month

Work permit: 4000-8000 baht / year.

Paper work to get multiple entry non-B in Kuala Lumpur: 5000-6000 baht / year

Border run: 2000 baht / 3 months.

Visa run: 15.000 baht / 15 months.

Annual result and balance sheets and auditing: 18.000 baht / year

You forgot the monthly/weekly contributions to the BiB tea fund...

[Spoonman]

This is what bar owners pay on Koh Samui

Depends on the lawyer/account you will use.

Some charge high accounting fee but less for fixing WP and Non-B papers.

The Personal income tax is based on a 30.000 baht salary that is minimum on Koh Samui for getting a WP.

Personal income Tax: 1000 baht / month

Accounting Fee: 500-1000 baht / month

Work permit: 4000-8000 baht / year.

Paper work to get multiple entry non-B in Kuala Lumpur: 5000-6000 baht / year

Border run: 2000 baht / 3 months.

Visa run: 15.000 baht / 15 months.

Annual result and balance sheets and auditing: 18.000 baht / year

Why is he not on an extension rather than doing all that crap for the B visa ?

[Derifo]

Maybe to keep himself busy.

[p_brownstone]

This is what bar owners pay on Koh Samui

Depends on the lawyer/account you will use.

Some charge high accounting fee but less for fixing WP and Non-B papers.

The Personal income tax is based on a 30.000 baht salary that is minimum on Koh Samui for getting a WP.

Personal income Tax: 1000 baht / month

Accounting Fee: 500-1000 baht / month

Work permit: 4000-8000 baht / year.

Paper work to get multiple entry non-B in Kuala Lumpur: 5000-6000 baht / year

Border run: 2000 baht / 3 months.

Visa run: 15.000 baht / 15 months.

Annual result and balance sheets and auditing: 18.000 baht / year

You forgot the monthly/weekly contributions to the BiB tea fund...

Overheads are quantifiable and can be budgeted for.

It's the "underheads" or rather the "under the tables" - as alluded to by Soutpeel - that will kill you.

I would guess 1 in 5,000 Farang who visit Thaland have the "idea" of opening an operation such as the one you are considering, and I am sure that less than 1 in 100 of those who do take the gamble ever make money - or even make it through the low, non-tourist season.

Patrick

P.S. And good luck on finding "one of the more undeveloped Islands"!!

[jimmybkk]

It amazes me that people insist on perpetuating this myth that you can't run a bar in Thailand without getting your arm twisted by the boys in brown to the extent that it puts you out of business. What a load of nonsense. If you are running a legit small bar, you're not high a profile go-go or nightclub turning over fortunes, you're not running girls out of the place or looking to attract the late night crowd and extend your hours beyond the drinking curfews, you have all your licenses and permits in place, you are highly unlikely to be bothered at all.

You may get an initial visit from the local cop who tries it on but if everything's legitimate, and your Thai "spokesperson" (wife, business partner, manager or whoever) is switched on enough to know how to handle a situation like this, then u just stand your ground, but you do so in a nice way so that he knows he can always swing by for a coffee or game of pool (on the house) and is always welcome but he's not getting a month;y kickback just because he asks for one, nor is he coming down after work every night with all his buddies getting a free booze-up.

What you will probably find over time, however, is that you encounter some kind of incident - work permit infraction, fight in the bar, disgruntled ex-employee etc. etc. at which point your local cop comes to the rescue (and I'm not saying it's necessarily staged) and you decide that it's probably not such a bad thing to send a couple of quid his way every month so that you know who to call when the next incident occurs, and also so that if the name of your bar comes up in conversation with his colleagues he can let them know that "you're taken care of". If it's a small bar with small margins like you're suggesting I'd be surprised if you'd pay more that 1,000 - 1,500 per month. If that puts you out of business, well, he's probably done you a favour.

[gregb]

This is what bar owners pay on Koh Samui

Depends on the lawyer/account you will use.

Some charge high accounting fee but less for fixing WP and Non-B papers.

The Personal income tax is based on a 30.000 baht salary that is minimum on Koh Samui for getting a WP.

Personal income Tax: 1000 baht / month

Accounting Fee: 500-1000 baht / month

Work permit: 4000-8000 baht / year.

Paper work to get multiple entry non-B in Kuala Lumpur: 5000-6000 baht / year

Border run: 2000 baht / 3 months.

Visa run: 15.000 baht / 15 months.

Annual result and balance sheets and auditing: 18.000 baht / year

Why is he not on an extension rather than doing all that crap for the B visa ?

I have to agree. You are spending 22k - 23k per year on visa runs by this logic. It's basically the same price to simply up your salary to 50k, pay the additional taxes and get a legitimate extension of stay.

[terryp]

This is what bar owners pay on Koh Samui

Depends on the lawyer/account you will use.

Some charge high accounting fee but less for fixing WP and Non-B papers.

The Personal income tax is based on a 30.000 baht salary that is minimum on Koh Samui for getting a WP.

Personal income Tax: 1000 baht / month

Accounting Fee: 500-1000 baht / month

Work permit: 4000-8000 baht / year.

Paper work to get multiple entry non-B in Kuala Lumpur: 5000-6000 baht / year

Border run: 2000 baht / 3 months.

Visa run: 15.000 baht / 15 months.

Annual result and balance sheets and auditing: 18.000 baht / year

Why is he not on an extension rather than doing all that crap for the B visa ?

I have to agree. You are spending 22k - 23k per year on visa runs by this logic. It's basically the same price to simply up your salary to 50k, pay the additional taxes and get a legitimate extension of stay.

And your still working illegally in a prohibited profession...even tho you have a work permit issued as consultant/chef/or some other made up position....just wait till you have a serious problem and you always will in this place (staff trying to kill each other is a good one, to look out for)

Bottom line for Thailand; drink in bars, let other do the running & ultimatly crying

[Gonsalviz]

It amazes me that people insist on perpetuating this myth that you can't run a bar in Thailand without getting your arm twisted by the boys in brown to the extent that it puts you out of business. What a load of nonsense. If you are running a legit small bar, you're not high a profile go-go or nightclub turning over fortunes, you're not running girls out of the place or looking to attract the late night crowd and extend your hours beyond the drinking curfews, you have all your licenses and permits in place, you are highly unlikely to be bothered at all.

You may get an initial visit from the local cop who tries it on but if everything's legitimate, and your Thai "spokesperson" (wife, business partner, manager or whoever) is switched on enough to know how to handle a situation like this, then u just stand your ground, but you do so in a nice way so that he knows he can always swing by for a coffee or game of pool (on the house) and is always welcome but he's not getting a month;y kickback just because he asks for one, nor is he coming down after work every night with all his buddies getting a free booze-up.

What you will probably find over time, however, is that you encounter some kind of incident - work permit infraction, fight in the bar, disgruntled ex-employee etc. etc. at which point your local cop comes to the rescue (and I'm not saying it's necessarily staged) and you decide that it's probably not such a bad thing to send a couple of quid his way every month so that you know who to call when the next incident occurs, and also so that if the name of your bar comes up in conversation with his colleagues he can let them know that "you're taken care of". If it's a small bar with small margins like you're suggesting I'd be surprised if you'd pay more that 1,000 - 1,500 per month. If that puts you out of business, well, he's probably done you a favour.

You are contradicting yourself.

[Spoonman]

This is what bar owners pay on Koh Samui

Depends on the lawyer/account you will use.

Some charge high accounting fee but less for fixing WP and Non-B papers.

The Personal income tax is based on a 30.000 baht salary that is minimum on Koh Samui for getting a WP.

Personal income Tax: 1000 baht / month

Accounting Fee: 500-1000 baht / month

Work permit: 4000-8000 baht / year.

Paper work to get multiple entry non-B in Kuala Lumpur: 5000-6000 baht / year

Border run: 2000 baht / 3 months.

Visa run: 15.000 baht / 15 months.

Annual result and balance sheets and auditing: 18.000 baht / year

Why is he not on an extension rather than doing all that crap for the B visa ?

I have to agree. You are spending 22k - 23k per year on visa runs by this logic. It's basically the same price to simply up your salary to 50k, pay the additional taxes and get a legitimate extension of stay.

And your still working illegally in a prohibited profession...even tho you have a work permit issued as consultant/chef/or some other made up position....just wait till you have a serious problem and you always will in this place (staff trying to kill each other is a good one, to look out for)

Bottom line for Thailand; drink in bars, let other do the running & ultimatly crying

Really I know a few bar owners that have legit work permits, however the question was why do all that crap to hold a non b Visa when an extension can be had for less.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Spoonman

[jalansanitwong]

I gave up with non B immig visas because its a scam. Theyre not really one year at all. You have to do a visa run to the border every three months so its basically a 3 month visa that you roll over 4 times per annum.

As for bars..... where are you going to find a hide away island in Thailand ? As soon as farangs spot a new island the thai mafia moves in and wrecks the joint with bulldozers and condos.

To have a successful bar you will need to have pretty girls working for you and hang on to them. Almost impossible to achieve. Running a bar is a complex business.Some stupid farangs think all you do is throw a few isan girls behind a wooden bench turn on a CD and watch the money roll in.

Go and have a look at the bar graveyard in Pattaya. There is always a smatttering of bars for sale everywhere you look. There simply arent enough pretty girls available at the bottom end of the prostitution market.

Edited August 21, 2011 by jalansanitwong

[Theo007]

The way to make a small fortune in Thailand is to start with a large one!

[ableguy]

The way to make a small fortune in Thailand is to start with a large one!

Best post I have ever read

[PoorSucker]

This is what bar owners pay on Koh Samui

Depends on the lawyer/account you will use.

Some charge high accounting fee but less for fixing WP and Non-B papers.

The Personal income tax is based on a 30.000 baht salary that is minimum on Koh Samui for getting a WP.

Personal income Tax: 1000 baht / month

Accounting Fee: 500-1000 baht / month

Work permit: 4000-8000 baht / year.

Paper work to get multiple entry non-B in Kuala Lumpur: 5000-6000 baht / year

Border run: 2000 baht / 3 months.

Visa run: 15.000 baht / 15 months.

Annual result and balance sheets and auditing: 18.000 baht / year

Why is he not on an extension rather than doing all that crap for the B visa ?

I have to agree. You are spending 22k - 23k per year on visa runs by this logic. It's basically the same price to simply up your salary to 50k, pay the additional taxes and get a legitimate extension of stay.

I'm on extension based on marriage.

This example is a friend of mine.

With income of 50.000 baht he must pay 44.000 baht more in tax per year.

Show 4 employees, he has two.

Pay VAT.

Make a profit of minimum 600.000 / year to pay his salary (and pay company tax on that)

[Spoonman]

This is what bar owners pay on Koh Samui

Depends on the lawyer/account you will use.

Some charge high accounting fee but less for fixing WP and Non-B papers.

The Personal income tax is based on a 30.000 baht salary that is minimum on Koh Samui for getting a WP.

Personal income Tax: 1000 baht / month

Accounting Fee: 500-1000 baht / month

Work permit: 4000-8000 baht / year.

Paper work to get multiple entry non-B in Kuala Lumpur: 5000-6000 baht / year

Border run: 2000 baht / 3 months.

Visa run: 15.000 baht / 15 months.

Annual result and balance sheets and auditing: 18.000 baht / year

Why is he not on an extension rather than doing all that crap for the B visa ?

I have to agree. You are spending 22k - 23k per year on visa runs by this logic. It's basically the same price to simply up your salary to 50k, pay the additional taxes and get a legitimate extension of stay.

I'm on extension based on marriage.

This example is a friend of mine.

With income of 50.000 baht he must pay 44.000 baht more in tax per year.

Show 4 employees, he has two.

Pay VAT.

Make a profit of minimum 600.000 / year to pay his salary (and pay company tax on that)

If he cannot meet that criteria it seems pointless to even be in business, how did you calculate the 44,000b tax or more ?

[PoorSucker]

Personal income tax

[billd766]

The way to make a small fortune in Thailand is to start with a large one!

Best post I have ever read

Preferably someone else's

[Spoonman]

Personal income tax

To be paying Bt.1000 pm on a Bt.30,000 pm income he must be claiming a spouse and 2 children so on Bt.50,000 pm he would be paying an extra Bt.2150 pm (Bt.25500 per year) so this pretty much cancels out the need for all the B visa crap.

[PoorSucker]

Personal income tax

To be paying Bt.1000 pm on a Bt.30,000 pm income he must be claiming a spouse and 2 children so on Bt.50,000 pm he would be paying an extra Bt.2150 pm (Bt.25500 per year) so this pretty much cancels out the need for all the B visa crap.

30.000/ month = 360.000 / year.

General deduction 60.000 = 300.000 baht

Single taxpayer allowance 30.000 = 270.000 as base for PIT

first 150.000 free

150.000-270.000 10% tax = 12.000 baht

15.000 / 12 = 1000 baht / month

---------------------------------------------

50.000/ month = 600.000 / year.

General deduction 60.000 = 540.000 baht

Single taxpayer allowance 30.000 = 510.000 as base for PIT

first 150.000 free

150.000-500.000 10% tax = 35.000 baht

500.000-510.000 20% tax = 2.000 baht

37.000 / 12 = 3700 baht / month

----------------------------------------------

The major thing for him is not paying any VAT.

Small entrepreneur whose annual turnover is less than 1.2 Million Baht is exempt from VAT.

To earn 600.000 / year makes it go over that threshold.

So take 600.000 in profit and pay VAT on that = 42.000 baht

Edited August 21, 2011 by PoorSucker

[Spoonman]

Whats that general deduction of 60,000b, I was never advised of that one.

[PoorSucker]

Whats that general deduction of 60,000b, I was never advised of that one.

[Spoonman]

Thanks.

[jimmybkk]

It amazes me that people insist on perpetuating this myth that you can't run a bar in Thailand without getting your arm twisted by the boys in brown to the extent that it puts you out of business. What a load of nonsense. If you are running a legit small bar, you're not high a profile go-go or nightclub turning over fortunes, you're not running girls out of the place or looking to attract the late night crowd and extend your hours beyond the drinking curfews, you have all your licenses and permits in place, you are highly unlikely to be bothered at all.

You may get an initial visit from the local cop who tries it on but if everything's legitimate, and your Thai "spokesperson" (wife, business partner, manager or whoever) is switched on enough to know how to handle a situation like this, then u just stand your ground, but you do so in a nice way so that he knows he can always swing by for a coffee or game of pool (on the house) and is always welcome but he's not getting a month;y kickback just because he asks for one, nor is he coming down after work every night with all his buddies getting a free booze-up.

What you will probably find over time, however, is that you encounter some kind of incident - work permit infraction, fight in the bar, disgruntled ex-employee etc. etc. at which point your local cop comes to the rescue (and I'm not saying it's necessarily staged) and you decide that it's probably not such a bad thing to send a couple of quid his way every month so that you know who to call when the next incident occurs, and also so that if the name of your bar comes up in conversation with his colleagues he can let them know that "you're taken care of". If it's a small bar with small margins like you're suggesting I'd be surprised if you'd pay more that 1,000 - 1,500 per month. If that puts you out of business, well, he's probably done you a favour.

You are contradicting yourself.

Contradicting myself how exactly? I've opened by saying that in my experience everyone tells you that the amount you have to pay to the BIB when you open a bar will cripple your business and that in my experience this is a load of nonsense. Show me where I've contradicted that viewpoint.

[samran]

Jimmybkk, stop with your sensible contributions, tales derived from bar stool chatter (probably defined by some as first hand experience) and 'truths' derived from tales in 'Thailand based action novels' are what the punters want to hear.

[Soutpeel]

I gave up with non B immig visas because its a scam. Theyre not really one year at all. You have to do a visa run to the border every three months so its basically a 3 month visa that you roll over 4 times per annum.

..pray tell how they are a scam ? they are really valid for year...validity and length of stay permitted are not the same.....its a 12 months visa, which allows you 90 days a time per visit...cant see the scam in that.

Now if you are on a extension of stay for work, you never have to leave the country and do any visa runs

So what exactly are you doing now for a visa or have just not bothered because all visa's are a scam ?

[Spoonman]

I gave up with non B immig visas because its a scam. Theyre not really one year at all. You have to do a visa run to the border every three months so its basically a 3 month visa that you roll over 4 times per annum.

..pray tell how they are a scam ? they are really valid for year...validity and length of stay permitted are not the same.....its a 12 months visa, which allows you 90 days a time per visit...cant see the scam in that.

I agree, his method of a border run every 15 days is clearly a better use of time and money..............

[samran]

^^

Soutpeel, don't waste your breath. Professional victims everywhere, and you've just spotted one.

[Bakseedaa]

This is what bar owners pay on Koh Samui

Depends on the lawyer/account you will use.

Some charge high accounting fee but less for fixing WP and Non-B papers.

The Personal income tax is based on a 30.000 baht salary that is minimum on Koh Samui for getting a WP.

Personal income Tax: 1000 baht / month

Accounting Fee: 500-1000 baht / month

Work permit: 4000-8000 baht / year.

Paper work to get multiple entry non-B in Kuala Lumpur: 5000-6000 baht / year

Border run: 2000 baht / 3 months.

Visa run: 15.000 baht / 15 months.

Annual result and balance sheets and auditing: 18.000 baht / year

Why is he not on an extension rather than doing all that crap for the B visa ?

I have to agree. You are spending 22k - 23k per year on visa runs by this logic. It's basically the same price to simply up your salary to 50k, pay the additional taxes and get a legitimate extension of stay.

And your still working illegally in a prohibited profession...even tho you have a work permit issued as consultant/chef/or some other made up position....just wait till you have a serious problem and you always will in this place (staff trying to kill each other is a good one, to look out for)

Bottom line for Thailand; drink in bars, let other do the running & ultimatly crying

Dead right, I have a bar and guest house and its simply not worth it..! take the advice and let someone else do it.. so many obstacles .. never ending. and no peace..!

[jalansanitwong]

I gave up with non B immig visas because its a scam. Theyre not really one year at all. You have to do a visa run to the border every three months so its basically a 3 month visa that you roll over 4 times per annum.

..pray tell how they are a scam ? they are really valid for year...validity and length of stay permitted are not the same.....its a 12 months visa, which allows you 90 days a time per visit...cant see the scam in that.

Now if you are on a extension of stay for work, you never have to leave the country and do any visa runs

So what exactly are you doing now for a visa or have just not bothered because all visa's are a scam ?

A 12 month visa should go for 1 year not 3 months which is the case with a b immig visa.If you only had to report to local officals then you could call it a genuine 1 year visa . But you can't so its not !