flying Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) I hate to bust your bubble but Saddam's army was driving Chinese and Soviet provided tanks and APCs. They had no military equipment provided by the CIA or US governments. Perhaps you could provide a link to refute my response? No web links Books if you would like to read. I could suggest some titles. But are you are suggesting such things never happen? Surely more famous ones like the Iran/Contra deals you have read/heard about no? Edited September 3, 2011 by flying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckd Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I hate to bust your bubble but Saddam's army was driving Chinese and Soviet provided tanks and APCs. They had no military equipment provided by the CIA or US governments. Perhaps you could provide a link to refute my response? No web links Books if you would like to read. I could suggest some titles. But are you are suggesting such things never happen? Surely more famous ones like the Iran/Contra deals you have read/heard about no? sigh... No, I am adult enough to know the US has provided weapons to many countries/causes that have then been turned against them. What you said was this: "But also look at where Saddam got the military might to invade. His military build up was a product of the CIA's help to build hm up in 1980 to invade Iran" His military buildup was not a product of the CIA's assistance. He procured his hardware from China and the Soviet Union and used it against Iran and in his invasion of Kuwait. I believe Iraq Air did have a few Boeing 727's laying around but very little else was in his air force other than MIG 29s and some rather dodgy French helicopters. His 'military might' was in his Army, and it was provided with Chinese and Soviet weaponry, not CIA provided. Please provide the titles of the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) I hate to bust your bubble but Saddam's army was driving Chinese and Soviet provided tanks and APCs. They had no military equipment provided by the CIA or US governments. Perhaps you could provide a link to refute my response? No web links Books if you would like to read. I could suggest some titles. But are you are suggesting such things never happen? Surely more famous ones like the Iran/Contra deals you have read/heard about no? Please provide the titles of the books. You appear to be under the impression that when I say the CIA helps to build up a force that I mean they give them American made weapons? As you said at times it is openly done. OBL would not have done well against Soviet Helicopters without them eh? But there are many other ways to build something to do your bidding & it does not have to be with Stingers or weapons you physically give & have to explain later. It can be unfunded cash to buy weaponry elsewhere, Why would the CIA give weaponry that needs ammo also supplied by them for the duration? Better leave that to others. It can be advisers training your troops for you...It can be intelligence reports on the enemy etc. etc. etc Access to Intelligence is a big foot up over your enemy no? Anyway as to books..... A few that I like for general history are Ron Paul's Revolution & End The FED ( ETF not military but financial history) Ones that deal more with the subject of CIA would be Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions since World War II by William Blum The Fire This Time U.S. Crimes in the Gulf by former attorney general Ramsey Clark Sorry this has drifted off topic.. You are free as always to make up your own mind based on what you believe to be true through what you study/learn. Edited September 3, 2011 by flying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckd Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) I hate to bust your bubble but Saddam's army was driving Chinese and Soviet provided tanks and APCs. They had no military equipment provided by the CIA or US governments. Perhaps you could provide a link to refute my response? No web links Books if you would like to read. I could suggest some titles. But are you are suggesting such things never happen? Surely more famous ones like the Iran/Contra deals you have read/heard about no? Please provide the titles of the books. You appear to be under the impression that when I say the CIA helps to build up a force that I mean they give them American made weapons? As you said at times it is openly done. OBL would not have done well against Soviet Helicopters without them eh? But there are many other ways to build something to do your bidding & it does not have to be with Stingers or weapons you physically give & have to explain later. It can be unfunded cash to buy weaponry elsewhere, Why would the CIA give weaponry that needs ammo also supplied by them for the duration? Better leave that to others. It can be advisers training your troops for you...It can be intelligence reports on the enemy etc. etc. etc Access to Intelligence is a big foot up over your enemy no? Anyway as to books..... A few that I like for general history are Ron Paul's Revolution & End The FED ( ETF not military but financial history) Ones that deal more with the subject of CIA would be Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions since World War II by William Blum The Fire This Time U.S. Crimes in the Gulf by former attorney general Ramsey Clark Sorry this has drifted off topic.. You are free as always to make up your own mind based on what you believe to be true through what you study/learn. I will try and learn as much as I can. Will I have to forget my knowledge gained with over 30 years of working in the defense industry to have all the vast knowledge possessed by Ron Paul? Ramsey Clark???? Do you seriously believe the stuff this guy writes? Edited September 4, 2011 by chuckd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) Will I have to forget my knowledge gained with over 30 years of working in the defense industry to have all the vast knowledge possessed Listen Chuck.....I meant to include in my last post that I hoped you did not start your previous answer to me with a "sigh" because you thought my reply included a slight toward you...It was not my intention. When I asked about Iran/Contra I meant it as an obvious example nothing more. As for this latest rely of yours what can I say? We are a sum total of our life experiences. You have yours & I have mine You have formulated opinions on your experiences & what you have read,heard,learned through out your life. Same as I They may not be the same but that should not surprise as we have had different life experiences. That does not mean one is right & one is wrong. It is what it is...opinions formulated by life experiences. I do not ask you to change your opinions/beliefs. They are yours to keep. You asked me what books I read I mentioned a few. If my answers somehow offend you I apologize but you asked & I answered. Edited September 4, 2011 by flying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Below is a link to a well documented account of the current Libya. It is a bit long but worth the time IMO. http://gagnauga.is/index.php?Fl=Greinar&ID=169 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckd Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 No problem, Mr. Flying. Not upset at all. :jap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midas Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) so who are the good guys and the bad guys in this battle because by now I am totally confused Libya: Files Reveal Cosying Between Gaddafi Regime And MI6 " Documents retrieved by Human Rights Watch from Colonel Gaddafi’s former intelligence chief reveal embarrassingly close ties between the regime and western intelligence services. The documents, found in the offices of Moussa Koussa, Gaddafi’s former right-hand man who has since defected, implicate the CIA in the rendition of suspects to the Libyan security forces, and suggest that MI6 gave the Gaddafi regime details of Libyan dissidents." http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/09/03/files-reveal-cosying-betw_n_947998.html?1315085640 Edited September 4, 2011 by midas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exsexyman Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 so who are the good guys and the bad guys in this battle because by now I am totally confused Libya: Files Reveal Cosying Between Gaddafi Regime And MI6 " Documents retrieved by Human Rights Watch from Colonel Gaddafi’s former intelligence chief reveal embarrassingly close ties between the regime and western intelligence services. The documents, found in the offices of Moussa Koussa, Gaddafi’s former right-hand man who has since defected, implicate the CIA in the rendition of suspects to the Libyan security forces, and suggest that MI6 gave the Gaddafi regime details of Libyan dissidents." http://www.huffingto...html?1315085640 I am sure these revelations are just the tip of the iceberg. This is why Gaddafi will probably never be taken alive and be tried in open court. Im pretty sure the rebel leaders will have received their orders on that one! Just imagine who the Gaddafi's could be calling as character witnesses. Tony Blair, Lord Mandelson, Berlusconi et al. Stories emanating from France suggest that Sarkozy's election campaign was funded by Gaddafi. The Sunday Times reports that Blair wrote part of Gaddafi's son's PHD for him! Allegations that won't go away about Blair being a paid consultant to Gaddafi's Libyan national bank. And as for the revelations that the CIA and MI5 were complicit in the persecution and torture of Libyan dissidents, well the west can hardly charge gaddafi with these crimes without laying themselves open to similar charges. I also note the deafening silence from our Middle East peace envoy and Mandelson regarding events in Libya. Tony Blair has amassed a huge fortune since retiring as Prime Minister, how he came by it is cloaked in secrecy, hidden by secretive trusts and offshore tax specialists. Likewise Mandelson, who was very close to the Gaddafi's, holidaying on yachts with the eldest son etc, has just purchased an 8 million pound house in London. Blair has undoubtably prostituted the position of Prime Minister, he may as well walk around with a sign round his neck saying, 'For Sale'. Gaddafi was in power for 42 years and no doubt could cause great embarrassment to a number of senior public figures in the West if allowed a voice in open court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Below is a link to a well documented account of the current Libya. It is a bit long but worth the time IMO. http://gagnauga.is/index.php?Fl=Greinar&ID=169 Thanks Pakboong Someone put a lot of work into that link. Another poster (Midas)put this up too. I was glad to see in this video they mentioned Saddam & his attempt to sell oil in Euros & what came next. Not unlike this video describes Gaddafi's plan to sell oil in gold dinars. Before this NATO invasion I remember seeing Gaddafi saying no more oil to EU or USA & it will go elsewhere. I remember thinking...well now you've done a Saddam. It was not surprising to hear soon after what was coming his way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 As good as it all sounds, the oil producing nations have little choice about where their oil ends up. It's generally sold on the open market. They have two choices, sell it or don't pump it out of the ground. Other countries will generally make up the difference in production. As far as the currency issue is concerned, it's a non-starter. Euro's, $, Yen, or gold; the value is the same. When the price of the dollar drops the price of oil increases. Iran, for example, for all it's hardline rehetoric still sells its oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) Iran, for example, for all it's hardline rehetoric still sells its oil. True but When Saddam decided he would sell in Euros he was not long for the world. When Gaddafi started talk of a gold dinar & accepting only that as payment not surprisingly he was looking at much shorter future. It did not help that he sealed the deal saying who he would sell oil to exclusively after the NATO bombing was sorted. As the worlds reserve currency the USD is used for oil purchases. That is a HUGE benefit. Even if that same day the seller converts the USD to what ever they want. That moments that the USD was in circulation provides a huge benefit called seigniorage revenue Edited September 5, 2011 by flying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midas Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 so who are the good guys and the bad guys in this battle because by now I am totally confused Libya: Files Reveal Cosying Between Gaddafi Regime And MI6 " Documents retrieved by Human Rights Watch from Colonel Gaddafi’s former intelligence chief reveal embarrassingly close ties between the regime and western intelligence services. The documents, found in the offices of Moussa Koussa, Gaddafi’s former right-hand man who has since defected, implicate the CIA in the rendition of suspects to the Libyan security forces, and suggest that MI6 gave the Gaddafi regime details of Libyan dissidents." http://www.huffingto...html?1315085640 I am sure these revelations are just the tip of the iceberg. This is why Gaddafi will probably never be taken alive and be tried in open court. Im pretty sure the rebel leaders will have received their orders on that one! Just imagine who the Gaddafi's could be calling as character witnesses. Tony Blair, Lord Mandelson, Berlusconi et al. Stories emanating from France suggest that Sarkozy's election campaign was funded by Gaddafi. The Sunday Times reports that Blair wrote part of Gaddafi's son's PHD for him! Allegations that won't go away about Blair being a paid consultant to Gaddafi's Libyan national bank. And as for the revelations that the CIA and MI5 were complicit in the persecution and torture of Libyan dissidents, well the west can hardly charge gaddafi with these crimes without laying themselves open to similar charges. I also note the deafening silence from our Middle East peace envoy and Mandelson regarding events in Libya. Tony Blair has amassed a huge fortune since retiring as Prime Minister, how he came by it is cloaked in secrecy, hidden by secretive trusts and offshore tax specialists. Likewise Mandelson, who was very close to the Gaddafi's, holidaying on yachts with the eldest son etc, has just purchased an 8 million pound house in London. Blair has undoubtably prostituted the position of Prime Minister, he may as well walk around with a sign round his neck saying, 'For Sale'. Gaddafi was in power for 42 years and no doubt could cause great embarrassment to a number of senior public figures in the West if allowed a voice in open court. yeah he told the Iraq enquiry that he regretted the loss of lives. Now he would probably say he regretted doing that for Gaddafi's son http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12246410 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) there's so much fuss about creating the enemy picture, in this case Gadhaffi, by the bought MSM, that therfore of course, time will reveal the real motivation behind this hunt. Fact is, Libya was debt free. Education was free, and those who wanted to further their education that was not available got funded by the govt. The government paid half for each car that was purchased. Newly weds got $ 50.000.00 to buy a new home. Health care was free and on a very high standard. Overall, Libya had the highest living standard in Africa and was superior to many other first world Nations. Loans were provided for 0% interest. Those who wanted to do farming got the land, livestock and everything it takes to start a farm. Price of oil was $0.14. I also suggest you to read the green book. There's an English translation. Assuming that it was written by Saddam himself, he can't be that bad. With this reading you can make yourself a picture of his personality... click this link Edited September 5, 2011 by elcent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) I'm sure that other than ordering the Lockerbie bombing which killed 270 innocent people and a few dozen war crimes Gaddafi was a real nice guy. Edited September 5, 2011 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) I'm sure that other than ordering the Lockerbie bombing which killed 270 innocent people and a few dozen war crimes Gaddafi was a real nice guy. There's are allegedly proofs of witnesses being paid $4,000,000 - EACH - for bearing false witness against Gadhaffi. I'll try to find that links. Edited September 5, 2011 by elcent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Food for thoughts this was/is a broadcast on African TV http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11R56Y0Dx4&feature=player_embedded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Food for thoughts this was/is a broadcast on African TV 4 minutes into that video they talk about how the rebels set up a central bank early in their attacks. That is a fact & supported elsewhere including the news channels here in the US It was incredible to consider how that was done...when it was done...& the speed with which it was accomplished. These *rebels* must have signed away many future rights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Food for thoughts this was/is a broadcast on African TV 4 minutes into that video they talk about how the rebels set up a central bank early in their attacks. That is a fact & supported elsewhere including the news channels here in the US It was incredible to consider how that was done...when it was done...& the speed with which it was accomplished. These *rebels* must have signed away many future rights It all boils down to who's using who. The western neo-Keynesian debt model can't tolerate losing control of the means of money supply so pricing oil in a new honest currency is a disaster for them. However in setting up a central bank they are assuming that out of some sort of gratitude the Islamist rebels will play ball with this model, I suspect they won't, time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midas Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) Food for thoughts this was/is a broadcast on African TV http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11R56Y0Dx4&feature=player_embedded and here is another that needs to go viral Why Gadhafi must die! Edited September 5, 2011 by midas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckd Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I'm sure that other than ordering the Lockerbie bombing which killed 270 innocent people and a few dozen war crimes Gaddafi was a real nice guy. There's are allegedly proofs of witnesses being paid $4,000,000 - EACH - for bearing false witness against Gadhaffi. I'll try to find that links. Please do post the link. That's something I would really like to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 A couple of you posters are making this a very interesting thread without the usual vitriol. Good/interesting views. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/sep/4/jihadists-plot-to-take-over-libya/ Well fancy that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/sep/4/jihadists-plot-to-take-over-libya/ Well fancy that. Yes how do you suppose all the arm chair foreign policy folks here knew that so long ago? Yet Super Powers with tons of high tech intelligence did not? Well of course it is not possible & they played it just the way they wanted. The ultimate goal soon to be seen. If it were a unbiased court of law Gaddafi could probably sue NATO & win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Yes how do you suppose all the arm chair foreign policy folks here knew that so long ago? It is just common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Yes how do you suppose all the arm chair foreign policy folks here knew that so long ago? It is just common sense. Agreed & while I think our governments do many stupid things on purpose I do not think they lack that most basic of all senses. So....... Once again we see a form of invasion based not on the original claims which by the way have never been fully investigated aside from a few sound bites. Yet as others have said there are obvious countries committing far greater proven atrocities. Yet none run there because it holds no prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/sep/4/jihadists-plot-to-take-over-libya/ Well fancy that. Yes how do you suppose all the arm chair foreign policy folks here knew that so long ago? Yet Super Powers with tons of high tech intelligence did not? Well of course it is not possible & they played it just the way they wanted. The ultimate goal soon to be seen. If it were a unbiased court of law Gaddafi could probably sue NATO & win Read 'The post American Presidency: The Obama administrations war on America - I have observed many times that Obama's policy decisions transcend mere bad luck twinned with incompetence, there is a malevolent plan behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Yet as others have said there are obvious countries committing far greater proven atrocities. Yet none run there because it holds no prize. I would say that it is more about Gaddafi being a cheaper, easier target - Obama wanted a military win under his belt - and the oil for our French and British allies helped of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Read 'The post American Presidency: The Obama administrations war on America - I have observed many times that Obama's policy decisions transcend mere bad luck twinned with incompetence, there is a malevolent plan behind them. Thanks for the recommendation It seems to have gotten good reviews. Will add it to my reading list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckd Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I can foresee the same events happening in Egypt, to a lesser degree. The Egyptian military is too strong for a complete Jihadist takeover but the Muslim Brotherhood will eventually wind up with the entire country and they will be practicing Sharia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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