Tolerance Should Be At The Heart Of A Free Society: Thai Opinion

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

Tolerance should be at the heart of a free society

By The Nation

Thai politicians appear to have shed their famously thick skins

Thais tend to look at their politicians as being a bunch of hypocrites whose skins are by necessity thick: If they weren't, they wouldn't be able to withstand the criticism from the public. But with all the lawsuits and insinuations flying around, it appears their hides are not as thick as we thought.

The trend is somewhat disturbing. One can safely argue that Thailand took the wrong turn during the first Thaksin Shinawatra administration because of his all-or-nothing approach to everything, intimidation of the media and those who think differently, and dismantling of the built-in checks-and-balances safeguards, which let him enrich himself.

In response to Thaksin's abusive behaviour, the yellow-shirt movement congealed with members who also adopted abusive methods to make their point. The rise of the yellow shirts aroused a counter-reaction in the form of the red-shirt movement and the rest is history.

Along the way, the yellow shirts ransacked Bangkok's airports and Government House, while the red shirts burned down shopping malls in the capital and state buildings in various cities in the Northeast.

Eventually, the Army came out and pulled the plug, shooting scores of people along the way.

Thuggish behaviour was employed by all camps in spite of their claims to be fighting against political thuggery, or in the cause of restoring stability.

There was hope that with a new election shooing in a new government, Thailand would finally get some breathing space. There was a desire to move on.

Unfortunately, the thuggish behaviour remains.

Intimidation, not to mention assault and battery, carried out by political interest groups against people with opposing views, continues unabated.

This past Thursday, a Bangkok criminal court dismissed a suit filed by Pheu Thai deputy leader Plodprasop Suraswadi against a Democrat MP, Thepthai Senpong, citing freedom of speech for what the accused had said.

The following day, in a separate incident, the Broadcast Journalist Association issued a statement calling for an end to what it called a challenge to press freedom.

The declaration was issued after many media members received a chain note showing the picture and giving the name of the Channel 7 reporter who had asked a question that upset Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra.

It was about whether her government was planning to push through a new charter to whitewash her fugitive brother Thaksin.

"Remember her face and do something if you see her anywhere," the note said about the TV reporter.

Just recently, a group of red shirts hanging around Parliament beat up a university graduate and his friend for placing a wreath in front of Parliament to protest House Speaker Somsak Kiartsuranont's alleged bias towards coalition MPs.

Prior to that, a Democrat MP's Jeep was vandalised by alleged red shirts while it was parked outside the Parliament compound.

Also, the private car of the Democrat Party's chief adviser, Chuan Leekpai, was attacked last Wednesday night while he was inside the vehicle.

Chuan was leaving Parliament in his car after the collapse of a debate on government policies due to the lack of a quorum when a group of red shirts, who had gathered at the compound's gate, tried to surround his vehicle.

The ruling Pheu Thai Party can't pretend that the behaviour of its red-shirt supporters is not its concern. Wasn't it the then-opposition Pheu Thai who encouraged its red-shirt supporters to turn Bangkok into a sea of flames, and torch city halls across the country with Molotov cocktails if things didn't go their way?

Many of us don't like politicians and the spin they dish out. We have limited ways of getting back at them, although we don't do a good enough job of holding them accountable for their words and actions.

And while we may not like what they say, we like the idea that we can make that decision for ourselves and not have to worry about being beaten up.

We tell ourselves that we are living in a free society, but what kind of freedom is it when we are not willing to sacrifice for it?

The price for this liberty is not so difficult to comprehend - it's the fact that we have to tolerate things we don't necessary like, namely views that are different from ours.

-- The Nation 2011-09-05

[blackout]

"The ruling Pheu Thai Party can't pretend that the behaviour of its red-shirt supporters is not its concern."

i think they can. after all it was what thaksin have done and it upset medias, upset people around him, upset public. he couldn't care more back then, he still doesn't care it right now. i don't expect much change from his sister.

after all advance taking culture, power abusing, money and power worshiping, selfishness are taking root deep in this culture.

we have seen the red-shi-r-t beat up and or kill whoever disagree with them. offer unconditional support to thakin's corrupted government.

we have seen the yellow give full support to the militarty coup, respect next to non on the election result. etc everyone know what has been done to the country by this two groups.

and both of them said that it for the sake of democracy!

i did say thaksin will destroy thailand since very early of his first term in the office (it wasn't a prediction. it was more of a personal reading and data analyzing.) at that time bkk people still support him and help pressure the justice department to let thaksin get away with his very first un-report / hidden money and property assets which could cause him to loose his PM's status. that was the time before he success in apply his money as the god tactic to buy popular support from the greedy people of thailand.

and he proof me right seeing thai people and the conceptual of democracy they believe in today.

now i can only see thailand spiral down to a civil war. not only b/c tolerance is not an option to consider by either sides. both side can not seem to see what right or wrong. bother of them only need and will do anything to get "their own version of" what they so call democracy.

i guess it will happen in a decade from now. (i hope i will be wrong this time. but that is all i can see from what has been happening to this country.)

Edited September 5, 2011 by blackout

[ozzieovaseas]

How can you talk tolerance in a place like Thailand. Tolerance is on the direct opposite pole to all this "face" doo-dah.

If you can somehow re-educate a whole species on how futile the whole idea of face is, then you might see a bit of tolerance. Until then, and whether you call this sort of thing "face" or some other word..it's still the thorn that will destroy all nations. Greed is its bigger and uglier brother an is running rife everywhere. And sad to say, it all stems from within, on an individual level. We are all prone to it and suffer its consequences regardless of nationality

[cup-O-coffee]

Tolerance. A nice ideal, but a double-edged sword. Too much either way and you end up with problems; imbalance.

I think the notion of tolerance with the natives here is like any other ideal that sounds nice on the surface. They take that meaning and use it for their own selfish purposes to push their individual agendas of greed, lies, deceit and corruption. Then, when the issue is called on the carpet, their finger get tangled up in the effort to point away from their person.

Self-discipline; to do the right thing when no one is looking. Not their self-discipline; to do what feels right when no one is looking.

Bashing? Certainly not! I've simply seen and read of too many examples in all walks of life, that far outweigh the very few and seldom niceties we read about infrequently.

Yes; I understand this exists elsewhere. No; I am not going to move to another country, or go home. My opinion (and that is what this is) allows me to express my views

[ozzieovaseas]

Tolerance. A nice ideal, but a double-edged sword. Too much either way and you end up with problems; imbalance.

I think the notion of tolerance with the natives here is like any other ideal that sounds nice on the surface. They take that meaning and use it for their own selfish purposes to push their individual agendas of greed, lies, deceit and corruption. Then, when the issue is called on the carpet, their finger get tangled up in the effort to point away from their person.

Self-discipline; to do the right thing when no one is looking. Not their self-discipline; to do what feels right when no one is looking.

Bashing? Certainly not! I've simply seen and read of too many examples in all walks of life, that far outweigh the very few and seldom niceties we read about infrequently.

Yes; I understand this exists elsewhere. No; I am not going to move to another country, or go home. My opinion (and that is what this is) allows me to express my views

I think what you say is true of all people, not just the natives of any one country.

But yes, i do see what you mean if what you are pointing to is in relation to a lack of personal responsibility. It does seem to run rife in cultures where the importance of "face" is a little over the top.

Its a sad thing that some societies as a whole consider any sort of self introspection, or any serious self examination of ones deeds as "thinking to much". Are all our all our cultures guilty of this to some extent?

It is inevitable what will follow...an attitude along the lines of "Whatever I do is NEVER wrong, yet if someone did the same thing to me, it is VERY wrong...and therefor i have the right to ANY revenge I deem suitable"

I think it is very much the same as the westerners who believe Kharma will suddenly strike down those who wrong them, yet they themselves actually do the same things (and worse) to claw themselves ahead of the pack.

Sad state of affairs not always exclusive of location IMO.

On a positive note, I also still prefer to spend the bulk of my time in Thailand.

IMO if you keep clean, are respectful and do show tolerance yourself, you are LOT more likely to not have any trouble than in other places.

Edited September 5, 2011 by ozzieovaseas

[farang000999]

bring back the gold standard and you wont need tolerance as u will have real money. fiat currency is the true great divider of wealth and power and freedom.

[hammered]

Another way to look at it is that tolerance in most societies is there because there is a system to resolve the differences of opinion and conflicts in ideology in democracy and equality in law. In Thailand the electoral choices are often overturned and at least one major part of the legal system according to recent survey reported in the Thai media is not perceived as fair. That is all only going to decrease trust, make conflict more violent and likely to occur. The answer is to agree the set of rules by which these bodies work and then let a reformed system decide on the conflicts and differences. In democracy there are always winners and losers but tolerance comes with respect that the system works. Thailand is a changing place and in the short term more conflict is likely although it would be nice to see it avoided

[OzMick]

Another way to look at it is that tolerance in most societies is there because there is a system to resolve the differences of opinion and conflicts in ideology in democracy and equality in law. In Thailand the electoral choices are often overturned and at least one major part of the legal system according to recent survey reported in the Thai media is not perceived as fair. That is all only going to decrease trust, make conflict more violent and likely to occur. The answer is to agree the set of rules by which these bodies work and then let a reformed system decide on the conflicts and differences. In democracy there are always winners and losers but tolerance comes with respect that the system works. Thailand is a changing place and in the short term more conflict is likely although it would be nice to see it avoided

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

[martingorilla]

Only with the creation of a strong middle class will all these pathetic medieval Thai billionaire wars be stopped. This can only be done by REAL democracy.Thailand is at the start along this road to a better advanced tolerant, UNCORRUPT country.

As long as these billionaires have nearly all the power and wealth, Thailand will only stay the same. A middle class creates a tolerant society and tempers extremism

Yes there are very very powerful vested interests, who wish to maintain the status quo and the corruption and personality cults , but the only way forward to a more advanced country is TO LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE, not a handful of crazy billiionaires

Edited September 5, 2011 by martingorilla

[phiphidon]

"Eventually, the Army came out and pulled the plug, shooting scores of people along the way"

Messrs Abhisit and Suthep won't be too happy with this statement having spent most of the intervening time denying this happened.

Then making sure that the committees they put in place to "investigate" the incidents would be toothless tigers and wouldn't come up with anything too detrimental.

[martingorilla]

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

I don't think you quite understand the meaning of "tolerance', it is the OPPOSITE of partizanship

Edited September 5, 2011 by martingorilla

[hammered]

Another way to look at it is that tolerance in most societies is there because there is a system to resolve the differences of opinion and conflicts in ideology in democracy and equality in law. In Thailand the electoral choices are often overturned and at least one major part of the legal system according to recent survey reported in the Thai media is not perceived as fair. That is all only going to decrease trust, make conflict more violent and likely to occur. The answer is to agree the set of rules by which these bodies work and then let a reformed system decide on the conflicts and differences. In democracy there are always winners and losers but tolerance comes with respect that the system works. Thailand is a changing place and in the short term more conflict is likely although it would be nice to see it avoided

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

I disagree with you completely that because people lack education they dont know what goes on. Sure in some places Thaksin and his mates have a propaganda apparatus but this spreads far beyond that and the last regime dismantled most of it. Personally though I find more people with education sitting in towns with their big car, big house and technology who just come up with idiotic notions that everyone up country is an idiot of a bigger degree than you see the poor presented on soap operas and are all manipulated by Thaksin and Jatuporn. Totally wrong people up country form their opinions form experience and they know how the Thai state doesnt favour them and they have thrown their lot in with Thaksin as the poltician who tried to help them and who also isnt part of that old managed democracy thing. They know that because he is treated as they are by the powerful people. The biggest mistake the wealthy and powerful make in Thailand is ti underestimate the people who are not stupid and know exactly what Thaksin is

It doesnt matter what level of education I have or what I think of Thaksin although I will say there are many other things than the little case he got "done" on, I would have though would have merited coming up first. More to the point than what I think, virtually all of his supporters think he is corrupt. Then again they think all the others are too. Maybe they dont think Abhisit is corrupt but he is seen as overseeing a slaughter by many many people (it happened on his watch) and as vaguely incompetant in general. Oh and the Dem model is well known - corrupt establishment party that puts a few "clean" fronts up so they can argue they are clean and different, but the reality is still known and when Abhisit gave it all his rules of good conduct for the cabinet and then a few days later all the corruption allegations came out he looked so impotent, and where were the charges for all those things? Im not saying this is right or whatever. It is the way it is and people see it. Even every anti-Thaksinista I know, knowing my keen interest in Thai politics openly talk of the cases against Thaksin being political.

The institutions of democracy such as parliament (supreme body), government and courts cannot must alwasy be respected and trusted by the people as that is the contract on how democracy runs. If they start to get out of step, then the bodies need to be reformed etc as you cant change people and people do change over time. Resetting everything based on a constitution with full involvement of the people and while the country is running democratically is not a bad idea and certainly a far better idea than chaos. It is also the democratic way to change things.

[phantomfiddler]

My sentiments completely, Blackout, from the very first "Vote for me and I will give every village in Thailand 1 Million Baht" ! And now the formation of almost 400 "Red Villages" in Udon alone, very strange after the new government said one of it,s main aims was to lessen division and create harmony amongst all thais. I see civil war looming if the red shirt thugs continue unrestrained.

"The ruling Pheu Thai Party can't pretend that the behaviour of its red-shirt supporters is not its concern."

i think they can. after all it was what thaksin have done and it upset medias, upset people around him, upset public. he couldn't care more back then, he still doesn't care it right now. i don't expect much change from his sister.

after all advance taking culture, power abusing, money and power worshiping, selfishness are taking root deep in this culture.

we have seen the red-shi-r-t beat up and or kill whoever disagree with them. offer unconditional support to thakin's corrupted government.

we have seen the yellow give full support to the militarty coup, respect next to non on the election result. etc everyone know what has been done to the country by this two groups.

and both of them said that it for the sake of democracy!

i did say thaksin will destroy thailand since very early of his first term in the office (it wasn't a prediction. it was more of a personal reading and data analyzing.) at that time bkk people still support him and help pressure the justice department to let thaksin get away with his very first un-report / hidden money and property assets which could cause him to loose his PM's status. that was the time before he success in apply his money as the god tactic to buy popular support from the greedy people of thailand.

and he proof me right seeing thai people and the conceptual of democracy they believe in today.

now i can only see thailand spiral down to a civil war. not only b/c tolerance is not an option to consider by either sides. both side can not seem to see what right or wrong. bother of them only need and will do anything to get "their own version of" what they so call democracy.

i guess it will happen in a decade from now. (i hope i will be wrong this time. but that is all i can see from what has been happening to this country.)

[OzMick]

Another way to look at it is that tolerance in most societies is there because there is a system to resolve the differences of opinion and conflicts in ideology in democracy and equality in law. In Thailand the electoral choices are often overturned and at least one major part of the legal system according to recent survey reported in the Thai media is not perceived as fair. That is all only going to decrease trust, make conflict more violent and likely to occur. The answer is to agree the set of rules by which these bodies work and then let a reformed system decide on the conflicts and differences. In democracy there are always winners and losers but tolerance comes with respect that the system works. Thailand is a changing place and in the short term more conflict is likely although it would be nice to see it avoided

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

I disagree with you completely that because people lack education they dont know what goes on. Sure in some places Thaksin and his mates have a propaganda apparatus but this spreads far beyond that and the last regime dismantled most of it. Personally though I find more people with education sitting in towns with their big car, big house and technology who just come up with idiotic notions that everyone up country is an idiot of a bigger degree than you see the poor presented on soap operas and are all manipulated by Thaksin and Jatuporn. Totally wrong people up country form their opinions form experience and they know how the Thai state doesnt favour them and they have thrown their lot in with Thaksin as the poltician who tried to help them and who also isnt part of that old managed democracy thing. They know that because he is treated as they are by the powerful people. The biggest mistake the wealthy and powerful make in Thailand is ti underestimate the people who are not stupid and know exactly what Thaksin is

It doesnt matter what level of education I have or what I think of Thaksin although I will say there are many other things than the little case he got "done" on, I would have though would have merited coming up first. More to the point than what I think, virtually all of his supporters think he is corrupt. Then again they think all the others are too. Maybe they dont think Abhisit is corrupt but he is seen as overseeing a slaughter by many many people (it happened on his watch) and as vaguely incompetant in general. Oh and the Dem model is well known - corrupt establishment party that puts a few "clean" fronts up so they can argue they are clean and different, but the reality is still known and when Abhisit gave it all his rules of good conduct for the cabinet and then a few days later all the corruption allegations came out he looked so impotent, and where were the charges for all those things? Im not saying this is right or whatever. It is the way it is and people see it. Even every anti-Thaksinista I know, knowing my keen interest in Thai politics openly talk of the cases against Thaksin being political.

The institutions of democracy such as parliament (supreme body), government and courts cannot must alwasy be respected and trusted by the people as that is the contract on how democracy runs. If they start to get out of step, then the bodies need to be reformed etc as you cant change people and people do change over time. Resetting everything based on a constitution with full involvement of the people and while the country is running democratically is not a bad idea and certainly a far better idea than chaos. It is also the democratic way to change things.

Let me get this right - the courts should change because the people like Thaksin? Exactly how he escaped his first charge. Keep repeating, "all the charges are political, all the courts are biased" until people start to believe it, keep the mantra "the red shirts did nothing wrong."

Most Thais know that Thaksin was corrupt, if not to what extent, but believe he will never pay for it. So why not take his offering, it might not be better for Thailand, but I'll be alright Jack.

Nothing changes until his ilk start serving time. You have referred to him as a hero and a patriot when I see him more like a cross between Benedict Arnold and Quisling. i might not be rich but I'm not ready to take his pieces of silver.

[OzMick]

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

I don't think you quite understand the meaning of "tolerance', it is the OPPOSITE of partizanship

I am NOT tolerant of thieves, murderers, arsonists, traitors, terrorists.................. I believe they should pay for their crimes and not be whitewashed in a bath of public opinion. I also have an excellent memory (as of yet).

If you can be tolerant, it says much about your character.

[MILT]

It's all propaganda! There are huge propaganda systems in place. The public relations industry is fundamentally a propaganda system. It's a enormous industry develop first in Britain and the United States that are two countries that were most free and democratic and that's where you need a propaganda system, because there you cannot control people by force. So you have to control their beliefs and attitudes and this is done very consciously. The core of democracy is the engineering of consent and your directed by the educational system and by the media to have the aspiration to be a millionaire, then if you don't make it you didn't meet your aspiration, but there are other values so OK I won't be a millionaire but I'll help the people who really need help and you don't have to go to Ethiopia to find it you can do it right here in Thailand

[hammered]

Another way to look at it is that tolerance in most societies is there because there is a system to resolve the differences of opinion and conflicts in ideology in democracy and equality in law. In Thailand the electoral choices are often overturned and at least one major part of the legal system according to recent survey reported in the Thai media is not perceived as fair. That is all only going to decrease trust, make conflict more violent and likely to occur. The answer is to agree the set of rules by which these bodies work and then let a reformed system decide on the conflicts and differences. In democracy there are always winners and losers but tolerance comes with respect that the system works. Thailand is a changing place and in the short term more conflict is likely although it would be nice to see it avoided

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

I disagree with you completely that because people lack education they dont know what goes on. Sure in some places Thaksin and his mates have a propaganda apparatus but this spreads far beyond that and the last regime dismantled most of it. Personally though I find more people with education sitting in towns with their big car, big house and technology who just come up with idiotic notions that everyone up country is an idiot of a bigger degree than you see the poor presented on soap operas and are all manipulated by Thaksin and Jatuporn. Totally wrong people up country form their opinions form experience and they know how the Thai state doesnt favour them and they have thrown their lot in with Thaksin as the poltician who tried to help them and who also isnt part of that old managed democracy thing. They know that because he is treated as they are by the powerful people. The biggest mistake the wealthy and powerful make in Thailand is ti underestimate the people who are not stupid and know exactly what Thaksin is

It doesnt matter what level of education I have or what I think of Thaksin although I will say there are many other things than the little case he got "done" on, I would have though would have merited coming up first. More to the point than what I think, virtually all of his supporters think he is corrupt. Then again they think all the others are too. Maybe they dont think Abhisit is corrupt but he is seen as overseeing a slaughter by many many people (it happened on his watch) and as vaguely incompetant in general. Oh and the Dem model is well known - corrupt establishment party that puts a few "clean" fronts up so they can argue they are clean and different, but the reality is still known and when Abhisit gave it all his rules of good conduct for the cabinet and then a few days later all the corruption allegations came out he looked so impotent, and where were the charges for all those things? Im not saying this is right or whatever. It is the way it is and people see it. Even every anti-Thaksinista I know, knowing my keen interest in Thai politics openly talk of the cases against Thaksin being political.

The institutions of democracy such as parliament (supreme body), government and courts cannot must alwasy be respected and trusted by the people as that is the contract on how democracy runs. If they start to get out of step, then the bodies need to be reformed etc as you cant change people and people do change over time. Resetting everything based on a constitution with full involvement of the people and while the country is running democratically is not a bad idea and certainly a far better idea than chaos. It is also the democratic way to change things.

Let me get this right - the courts should change because the people like Thaksin? Exactly how he escaped his first charge. Keep repeating, "all the charges are political, all the courts are biased" until people start to believe it, keep the mantra "the red shirts did nothing wrong."

Most Thais know that Thaksin was corrupt, if not to what extent, but believe he will never pay for it. So why not take his offering, it might not be better for Thailand, but I'll be alright Jack.

Nothing changes until his ilk start serving time. You have referred to him as a hero and a patriot when I see him more like a cross between Benedict Arnold and Quisling. i might not be rich but I'm not ready to take his pieces of silver.

This is not just about Thaksin. It is about a system of democarcy that does or doesnt respond to the needs of the governed people. Obsessing about Thaksin just blinds. The country is changing rapidly and having some suffer their fate at the hands of the courts while others do not even face charge is clearly something that people see. There enough examples that people see. A glaring example is legislating charge away by those who pulled a coup. Forget about Thaksin he isnt worth thinking about and I certainly dont regard him as a hero or patriot and didnt say that either (not that I would neccessarily regard patriot as a positive remark). He is a flawed man and human rights abuser in my eyes but not maybe that dissimilar to others in power. However, hiow is seen by the oppressed majority of the country is pretty important at times of political change. It really doesnt matter what you or I think.

If you think everything in Thailand is about Thaksin and a fight between all that is good and all that is bad, you really need to get out and see what is happening

And what are these remarks about taking pieces of silver? Do you think everyone who doesnt think Thaksin is the root of all evil is motivated only by money?

[hammered]

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

I don't think you quite understand the meaning of "tolerance', it is the OPPOSITE of partizanship

I am NOT tolerant of thieves, murderers, arsonists, traitors, terrorists.................. I believe they should pay for their crimes and not be whitewashed in a bath of public opinion. I also have an excellent memory (as of yet).

If you can be tolerant, it says much about your character.

But tolerant of those who plan and carry out coups, and who have been whitewashed in a bunch of legislative manouver, it seems which would mean partizan.

[OzMick]

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

I don't think you quite understand the meaning of "tolerance', it is the OPPOSITE of partizanship

I am NOT tolerant of thieves, murderers, arsonists, traitors, terrorists.................. I believe they should pay for their crimes and not be whitewashed in a bath of public opinion. I also have an excellent memory (as of yet).

If you can be tolerant, it says much about your character.

But tolerant of those who plan and carry out coups, and who have been whitewashed in a bunch of legislative manouver, it seems which would mean partizan.

I have said repeatedly that those who have strong feelings about the coup should reverse the amnesty legislation - just don't use it as justification of other crimes.

My personal views on the coup are ambivalent. When a caretaker PM refuses to call an election after his term has expired, he has resigned to the head of state and unilaterally re-instated himself, and is actively attempting to move members of his extended family to positions of power in the army and police, then things become much less clear cut than the overthrow of an elected government. Who has the responsibility to remove him - the head of state? And if the head of state decides that removal is necessary, how is it carried out?

You claim that a coup is undemocratic, but what is a PM without a mandate who states that "Democracy is not my aim" or words to that effect? When is a coup not a coup? It gets a lot more complicated than "Democracy good, coup bad."

This country remains a constitutional monarchy for bloody good reasons - the main one being that Thais DO NOT trust their politicians and quite rightly so. It will be a long time if ever that Thailand can produce a sense of public service and politicians that enter parliament with a sense of altruism rather than a headlong rush to the trough. When that happens Thailand might get a good government which gives the country what they NEED, not what they want.

Scenario: constitution altered, coup plotters tried with no defence offered, sentenced to x years incarceration, taken to prison and walk out same day with a royal pardon. Are you now happy to have Thaksin and his mercenaries tried as terrorists?

[rametindallas]

Another way to look at it is that tolerance in most societies is there because there is a system to resolve the differences of opinion and conflicts in ideology in democracy and equality in law. In Thailand the electoral choices are often overturned and at least one major part of the legal system according to recent survey reported in the Thai media is not perceived as fair. That is all only going to decrease trust, make conflict more violent and likely to occur. The answer is to agree the set of rules by which these bodies work and then let a reformed system decide on the conflicts and differences. In democracy there are always winners and losers but tolerance comes with respect that the system works. Thailand is a changing place and in the short term more conflict is likely although it would be nice to see it avoided

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

+1

[metisdead]

A post bringing HM the King into the discussion has been removed.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

[tlansford]

Another way to look at it is that tolerance in most societies is there because there is a system to resolve the differences of opinion and conflicts in ideology in democracy and equality in law. In Thailand the electoral choices are often overturned and at least one major part of the legal system according to recent survey reported in the Thai media is not perceived as fair. That is all only going to decrease trust, make conflict more violent and likely to occur. The answer is to agree the set of rules by which these bodies work and then let a reformed system decide on the conflicts and differences. In democracy there are always winners and losers but tolerance comes with respect that the system works. Thailand is a changing place and in the short term more conflict is likely although it would be nice to see it avoided

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

ozmick, and maybe the reason the thai people in the recent poll said the judiciary is not fair would be because, ... it is not fair ??

I have no personal experience with Thai courts, and I would like to keep it that way, but there are many independent sources that indicate that the Thai court system is indeed not fair : sources which have nothing to do with Thaskin/red shirts/propoganda...

As for barrows to push, yours would seem to be that Thai's are uneducated people. That has not been my experience.

[OzMick]

Another way to look at it is that tolerance in most societies is there because there is a system to resolve the differences of opinion and conflicts in ideology in democracy and equality in law. In Thailand the electoral choices are often overturned and at least one major part of the legal system according to recent survey reported in the Thai media is not perceived as fair. That is all only going to decrease trust, make conflict more violent and likely to occur. The answer is to agree the set of rules by which these bodies work and then let a reformed system decide on the conflicts and differences. In democracy there are always winners and losers but tolerance comes with respect that the system works. Thailand is a changing place and in the short term more conflict is likely although it would be nice to see it avoided

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

ozmick, and maybe the reason the thai people in the recent poll said the judiciary is not fair would be because, ... it is not fair ??

I have no personal experience with Thai courts, and I would like to keep it that way, but there are many independent sources that indicate that the Thai court system is indeed not fair : sources which have nothing to do with Thaskin/red shirts/propoganda...

As for barrows to push, yours would seem to be that Thai's are uneducated people. That has not been my experience.

Your experience with Thai people is about the same as your experience with Thai courts. 10% rated as illiterate, most Thais do little reading each day - an education system which abhors the questioning of teachers and other authority figures equates to an uneducated population.

You are right, the Thai court system is not fair to the poor, and when it is applied to those who get away with the most crimes, the rich and powerful, they claim it is not fair. It will be a lot fairer when the rich and powerful get sent to jail too.

[hanuman1]

I wonder what percentage of PTP voters at the last election voted that way purely and simply to get Thaksin back into power. Personally I think even 50% would be an excessive estimate.

Edited September 5, 2011 by hanuman1

[Siam Simon]

Another way to look at it is that tolerance in most societies is there because there is a system to resolve the differences of opinion and conflicts in ideology in democracy and equality in law. In Thailand the electoral choices are often overturned and at least one major part of the legal system according to recent survey reported in the Thai media is not perceived as fair. That is all only going to decrease trust, make conflict more violent and likely to occur. The answer is to agree the set of rules by which these bodies work and then let a reformed system decide on the conflicts and differences. In democracy there are always winners and losers but tolerance comes with respect that the system works. Thailand is a changing place and in the short term more conflict is likely although it would be nice to see it avoided

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

ozmick, and maybe the reason the thai people in the recent poll said the judiciary is not fair would be because, ... it is not fair ??

I have no personal experience with Thai courts, and I would like to keep it that way, but there are many independent sources that indicate that the Thai court system is indeed not fair : sources which have nothing to do with Thaskin/red shirts/propoganda...

As for barrows to push, yours would seem to be that Thai's are uneducated people. That has not been my experience.

Your experience with Thai people is about the same as your experience with Thai courts. 10% rated as illiterate, most Thais do little reading each day - an education system which abhors the questioning of teachers and other authority figures equates to an uneducated population.

You are right, the Thai court system is not fair to the poor, and when it is applied to those who get away with the most crimes, the rich and powerful, they claim it is not fair. It will be a lot fairer when the rich and powerful get sent to jail too.

And your own experiences with Thai people outside of Bangkok seem to be totally at odds with other posters who have actually settled in rural Thailand/spend regular quality time there. Personally, I think you make it up as you go along in order to fit your premise of ordinary Thai people being unable to understand what's going on in their country, therefore they can't be trusted with a democratic vote, and therefore.....and so on and so forth. It's complete and utter codswallop of course, and I will suggest that you take your own advice and stop posting crap (which you endlessly and inanely try to present as established fact, and then try to shout down any posters who offer dissent).

[OzMick]

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

ozmick, and maybe the reason the thai people in the recent poll said the judiciary is not fair would be because, ... it is not fair ??

I have no personal experience with Thai courts, and I would like to keep it that way, but there are many independent sources that indicate that the Thai court system is indeed not fair : sources which have nothing to do with Thaskin/red shirts/propoganda...

As for barrows to push, yours would seem to be that Thai's are uneducated people. That has not been my experience.

Your experience with Thai people is about the same as your experience with Thai courts. 10% rated as illiterate, most Thais do little reading each day - an education system which abhors the questioning of teachers and other authority figures equates to an uneducated population.

You are right, the Thai court system is not fair to the poor, and when it is applied to those who get away with the most crimes, the rich and powerful, they claim it is not fair. It will be a lot fairer when the rich and powerful get sent to jail too.

And your own experiences with Thai people outside of Bangkok seem to be totally at odds with other posters who have actually settled in rural Thailand/spend regular quality time there. Personally, I think you make it up as you go along in order to fit your premise of ordinary Thai people being unable to understand what's going on in their country, therefore they can't be trusted with a democratic vote, and therefore.....and so on and so forth. It's complete and utter codswallop of course, and I will suggest that you take your own advice and stop posting crap (which you endlessly and inanely try to present as established fact, and then try to shout down any posters who offer dissent).

OK, you spend quality time up-country. Tell me, how many newspapers do they sell each day in your town/village? If a town, is there a bookshop/newsagent/magazine seller? Flourishing business, or the corner of a different business? How about computer shops that are not game arcades? How are people getting information to make an informed decision - 5 mins news items on TV and red radio? Is there anywhere an adult can take a course to improve themselves? I know what the real answers are because i have ridden all over this country, alone, CNX to Nakhon Phanom, Udon Ubom, Ranong, Sungai Kolok - and still do it.

If you so and so forth leads to a better education system, then you have understood what I am saying. I have pointed out that inequalities in education are one of the weaknesses of democracy, but DO NOT know any way of overcoming that except better education for all. The only govt policy that I know of to aim to that was the uniform and text subsidy (I get no benefit from it) and that is being dismantled by PTP.

When it is posted that the Dems purged the public service of every Thaksin supporter, and on the same day there is a thread about Dep Pol Chief Damapong - I call that crap. should I have asked the moderators to remove a deliberate lie instead?

[tlansford]

Another way to look at it is that tolerance in most societies is there because there is a system to resolve the differences of opinion and conflicts in ideology in democracy and equality in law. In Thailand the electoral choices are often overturned and at least one major part of the legal system according to recent survey reported in the Thai media is not perceived as fair. That is all only going to decrease trust, make conflict more violent and likely to occur. The answer is to agree the set of rules by which these bodies work and then let a reformed system decide on the conflicts and differences. In democracy there are always winners and losers but tolerance comes with respect that the system works. Thailand is a changing place and in the short term more conflict is likely although it would be nice to see it avoided

You do like to push this little barrow, don't you?

The reason that a large section of the population see the court system as not being fair is because that is what they are told by the Thaksin/red shirt agi-propaganda machine which is where they receive most of their political information. Uneducated people will believe what they are told by perceived authority figures when they have few other sources to contradict.

As a reasonably educated man, do you claim that Thaksin is innocent of all the corruption charges brought against him, or that TRT was unfairly disbanded when caught handing out bribes? This is what the people are told every day.

So lets reform the courts. Red shirt panels to discuss grievances will go a long way to reconcile disputes, political militias will always prevent violence from occurring, pigs might sprout wings, Thaksin might renounce his lust for power and avarice, and you might stop posting crap - still waiting for a response to yesterday's.

ozmick, and maybe the reason the thai people in the recent poll said the judiciary is not fair would be because, ... it is not fair ??

I have no personal experience with Thai courts, and I would like to keep it that way, but there are many independent sources that indicate that the Thai court system is indeed not fair : sources which have nothing to do with Thaskin/red shirts/propoganda...

As for barrows to push, yours would seem to be that Thai's are uneducated people. That has not been my experience.

Your experience with Thai people is about the same as your experience with Thai courts. 10% rated as illiterate, most Thais do little reading each day - an education system which abhors the questioning of teachers and other authority figures equates to an uneducated population.

You are right, the Thai court system is not fair to the poor, and when it is applied to those who get away with the most crimes, the rich and powerful, they claim it is not fair. It will be a lot fairer when the rich and powerful get sent to jail too.

You know all about my experience with Thai people - Amazing. Let me put on my shades as I might otherwise be blinded by your holy illumination

You have 2 posts here, regarding the poll results, one stating that it is due to red-propaganda and the other stating that the Thai people perceive it as unfair... uhhh, because, as you say, it is...

Up to you to choose what you think.

[Siam Simon]

OK, you spend quality time up-country. Tell me, how many newspapers do they sell each day in your town/village? If a town, is there a bookshop/newsagent/magazine seller? Flourishing business, or the corner of a different business? How about computer shops that are not game arcades? How are people getting information to make an informed decision - 5 mins news items on TV and red radio? Is there anywhere an adult can take a course to improve themselves? I know what the real answers are because i have ridden all over this country, alone, CNX to Nakhon Phanom, Udon Ubom, Ranong, Sungai Kolok - and still do it.

The final sentence of this paragraph gives the game away: You flit about the country making fleeting observations led by your prejudices. I'm not going to waste any more time explaining to you what really goes on in rural Thailand. Try spending some time in one place, getting to know the locals and gaining their trust. Then you might stand a slight chance of not being so cluelessly bigoted.

If you so and so forth leads to a better education system, then you have understood what I am saying. I have pointed out that inequalities in education are one of the weaknesses of democracy, but DO NOT know any way of overcoming that except better education for all. The only govt policy that I know of to aim to that was the uniform and text subsidy (I get no benefit from it) and that is being dismantled by PTP.

You think that the uniform and text subsidy was going to improve education? . Education in Thailand needs root and branch reform. But it was never going to happen under the last government, and I don't think I'm psychic in suggesting that it won't happen under the current government. But you miss the point entirely: A formal education teaches people specific skills; it doesn't make people more intelligent. Again, you show up how clueless you are: In a society as structured and feudal as Thailand, we will meet many, many unintelligent, charmless people in places of authority and standing, and many people who are full of wit and wisdom who were born in the wrong place at the wrong time. And also plenty of the reverse of these scenarios, too.

When it is posted that the Dems purged the public service of every Thaksin supporter, and on the same day there is a thread about Dep Pol Chief Damapong - I call that crap. should I have asked the moderators to remove a deliberate lie instead?

Wasn't it posted that the last government had packed the civil service with it's own people? This is standard practice with incoming governments everywhere. Not long ago in my own country (the UK), our most senior policeman, Sir Ian Blair (a known Labour party affiliate) was forced out of office by incumbent Conservative Mayor of London Boris Johnson. A new government wants people in important places to be people that it can trust and work with, and not have to worry about being undermined by them. That's just how things work. Get real, and stop trying to score political points on this. I could understand it if you were an opposition politician. But on an internet debating forum???

[tlansford]

OK, you spend quality time up-country. Tell me, how many newspapers do they sell each day in your town/village? If a town, is there a bookshop/newsagent/magazine seller? Flourishing business, or the corner of a different business? How about computer shops that are not game arcades? How are people getting information to make an informed decision - 5 mins news items on TV and red radio? Is there anywhere an adult can take a course to improve themselves? I know what the real answers are because i have ridden all over this country, alone, CNX to Nakhon Phanom, Udon Ubom, Ranong, Sungai Kolok - and still do it.

The final sentence of this paragraph gives the game away: You flit about the country making fleeting observations led by your prejudices. I'm not going to waste any more time explaining to you what really goes on in rural Thailand. Try spending some time in one place, getting to know the locals and gaining their trust. Then you might stand a slight chance of not being so cluelessly bigoted.

If you so and so forth leads to a better education system, then you have understood what I am saying. I have pointed out that inequalities in education are one of the weaknesses of democracy, but DO NOT know any way of overcoming that except better education for all. The only govt policy that I know of to aim to that was the uniform and text subsidy (I get no benefit from it) and that is being dismantled by PTP.

You think that the uniform and text subsidy was going to improve education? . Education in Thailand needs root and branch reform. But it was never going to happen under the last government, and I don't think I'm psychic in suggesting that it won't happen under the current government. But you miss the point entirely: A formal education teaches people specific skills; it doesn't make people more intelligent. Again, you show up how clueless you are: In a society as structured and feudal as Thailand, we will meet many, many unintelligent, charmless people in places of authority and standing, and many people who are full of wit and wisdom who were born in the wrong place at the wrong time. And also plenty of the reverse of these scenarios, too.

When it is posted that the Dems purged the public service of every Thaksin supporter, and on the same day there is a thread about Dep Pol Chief Damapong - I call that crap. should I have asked the moderators to remove a deliberate lie instead?

Wasn't it posted that the last government had packed the civil service with it's own people? This is standard practice with incoming governments everywhere. Not long ago in my own country (the UK), our most senior policeman, Sir Ian Blair (a known Labour party affiliate) was forced out of office by incumbent Conservative Mayor of London Boris Johnson. A new government wants people in important places to be people that it can trust and work with, and not have to worry about being undermined by them. That's just how things work. Get real, and stop trying to score political points on this. I could understand it if you were an opposition politician. But on an internet debating forum???

good point - education does not equal intelligence.

[gregb]

I have said repeatedly that those who have strong feelings about the coup should reverse the amnesty legislation - just don't use it as justification of other crimes.

I will never condone the reversal of the amnesty legislation for the military. The military did their duty to protect their country from Thaksin who is an enemy of the people, even if the people don't realize it.

The military was only forced to act because the judges refused to their duty and remove him from office. Had the judiciary been impartial and not granted Thaksin the belief that he was above the law, we would not be in this mess today.

I find it ridiculous that people think this conflict started at the coup. It did not. The crimes against democracy began back in 2001. The military simply tried to put things right. Their only crime was they did not succeed. I can only hope that if the current government continues with their pro Thaksin policies that the military will try again and do a better job the second time around.