What Are These Noises?

[culicine]

Hi all, I have a honda civic 2..4 model with 183K kms on it.

I have a couple od issues - one is a screeching noise upon startup on cold motor. It sounds mechanical - the starter motor? This has happened for several months. The sound is brief then goes away after the engine starts.

The other is is a sound from my front right when travelling over 80Km/h. It's a constant low tone that sound very much like a motorbike (it's exhaust) when following close to me. I'm assuming this might be a wheel bearing but not sure. This has just started to happen. I haven't jacked it up to spin the wheels so haven't been able to test it myself. Nothing else seems amiss under the car.

Any other ideas would be appreciated, before I take it to a garage.

[transam]

Sounds like the starter Bendix (think thats it's name) spring might have broken but you would hear a noise if motor hot or cold. OR if your ride has non toothed belts adjustment might be required cos compound cold and slipping.

Your noise could be a wheel bearing on the nose.

[WarpSpeed]

Yes belt/belts slipping, most likely the alternator belt as it kicks on immediately and suddenly and the sudden load and high RPM's usually causes slippage if there is slack. Time to replace.. It's also possible that your water pump is going south (bearings failing) and the bearing is making a loud noise initially from start up as it's been sitting and locking up when off and then causes the belt to slip until it frees up and when you're riding at temp and speed it is whining causing your second noise.. Before anyone says so they don't always leak before they fail and often when the bearing fails the shaft also shifts and allows the impeller to rub the housing as the clearance is very tight and this too may cause a loud noise on start up and droning noise at speed..

The right front noise may be a wheel bearing or it can be related to the other noise and maybe a water pump as mentioned but you're not likely to be able to tell much by just hand spinning it, it needs to be jacked up and properly secured on jack stands or a lift, the rear wheels chocked (unless it's lifted of course) and then run through the gears and listened to up close to determine what part of the drive train it's coming from if it's even the drive train? It may be an inner CV joint for example. If it were the outer you could tell by taking it to some open lot and slowly driving in a circle in both directions with the wheel turned to maximum lock and you'll hear a clicking noise if they are going bad or require cleaning, greasing and likely new boots..

Edited September 7, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[saintofsilence]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

[WarpSpeed]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

Really?? What if it's the water pump? Would putting it in neutral shut the water pump off?

[saintofsilence]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

Really?? What if it's the water pump? Would putting it in neutral shut the water pump off?

If the noise was there when the car was not moving there would no need to test for a wheel bearing and the op said it comes in at 80 kl a water pump noise is continiuous and if he wants to rule out your theory shut the motor off.

Edited September 7, 2011 by saintofsilence

[Semper]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

Really?? What if it's the water pump? Would putting it in neutral shut the water pump off?

Cut the engine is a better alternative.

[WarpSpeed]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

Really?? What if it's the water pump? Would putting it in neutral shut the water pump off?

If the noise was there when the car was not moving there would no need to test for a wheel bearing and the op said it comes in at 80 kl a water pump noise is continiuous and if he wants to rule out your theory shut the motor off.

Not necessarily, it may not be perceivable at lower engine speeds or idle for example over the regular noise an engine makes but at 80k under load that's another matter..JFYI I just recently had this issue with 2 consecutive water pumps on separate VW products so once again I'm speaking from practical experience..

[WarpSpeed]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

Really?? What if it's the water pump? Would putting it in neutral shut the water pump off?

Cut the engine is a better alternative.

Yep, that'll do it ..

Edited September 7, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[transam]

Just jack the thing up and rotate the wheel, rock the wheel, listen and ''feel'', if bad then you will feel movement. If front wheel drive also grab the drive shaft coupling at both ends for movement. For water pump grab the fan, if it's got one, or the boss and feel for movement.

[WarpSpeed]

Just jack the thing up and rotate the wheel, rock the wheel, listen and ''feel'', if bad then you will feel movement. If front wheel drive also grab the drive shaft coupling at both ends for movement. For water pump grab the fan, if it's got one, or the boss and feel for movement.

While there's some possibility you may get some movement if it's really fecked, likely just shear manpower alone isn't going to tell anything and you can't investigate the source of any movement while you're doing it, it could be any number of things that have play in them so someone else needs to manipulate while you search or the other way around. Transverse mounted engines have an electric fan not attached to the water pump, even still you can't feel any movement on the water pump shaft with the belt/belts on and tensioned and the other bearings can be dry and noisy without any real play in them either until they have completely failed..... CV joints have built in play so moving them by hand tells nothing of value... I've already outlined the proper and professional ways to make an accurate determination anything short of that is 'native' and that speaks for itself..

[culicine]

Thanks for everyone's input. I never really thought about the water pump. The start up problem could best be described as a "crunching" as I turn the key and the engine starts. Only in the morning I get this, and not every time. Also, I did notice I don't get it as often if I put the key into the "on" position for 10-20 seconds or so. Would a watrerpump issue cause any heating problems, as I'm running at normal temps at the moment.

Can a place like b-quik look at the bearings, if that is the driving noise problem? Dread taking back to Honda, as the charge more for their parts.

[Semper]

a screeching noise upon startup on cold motor. It sounds mechanical - the starter motor?

Sounds very much like a belt noice.

[transam]

Thanks for everyone's input. I never really thought about the water pump. The start up problem could best be described as a "crunching" as I turn the key and the engine starts. Only in the morning I get this, and not every time. Also, I did notice I don't get it as often if I put the key into the "on" position for 10-20 seconds or so. Would a watrerpump issue cause any heating problems, as I'm running at normal temps at the moment.

Can a place like b-quik look at the bearings, if that is the driving noise problem? Dread taking back to Honda, as the charge more for their parts.

A motor engineer with experience will suss it. The techniques l have posted with ''my'' hands would probably suss it as l have done in the past. Yes there is movement in the coupling BUT you grab that and feel the trans end bearing movement, if any.

Difficult to put in words the hands on stuff.

[culicine]

a screeching noise upon startup on cold motor. It sounds mechanical - the starter motor?

Sounds very much like a belt noice.

It's possible, but it's not that typical squealing sound I heave a lot from cars. It's more "crunching" and not a sreeching/squealing sound. So I figure its mechanical or some sort rather than a belt. I also get it regularly serviced, so I'm assuming belts are checked.

[saintofsilence]

Thanks for everyone's input. I never really thought about the water pump. The start up problem could best be described as a "crunching" as I turn the key and the engine starts. Only in the morning I get this, and not every time. Also, I did notice I don't get it as often if I put the key into the "on" position for 10-20 seconds or so. Would a watrerpump issue cause any heating problems, as I'm running at normal temps at the moment.

Can a place like b-quik look at the bearings, if that is the driving noise problem? Dread taking back to Honda, as the charge more for their parts.

Have a look under your car at the cv joints and see if the rubber boots are broken if one of them are broken thats most likely the noise but before getting that replaced do the wheel bearing test by running the car in neutral when the noise comes in if the noise stays you also have a wheel bearing problem. with the engine off if you like.

I have test driven hundreds of cars for driveline problems and that is how I have done it with good accuracy.

If the rubber boots are broken on the cv joints and all the grease has dried up get the driveshaft replaced boots and new grease wont stop the noise.

Your noise when starting sounds like a drive on your starter motor and auto electrician can check that.

Edited September 7, 2011 by saintofsilence

[wandrinstar]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

Most cars do nothing in neutrall, they just sort of sit there ive found .

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks for everyone's input. I never really thought about the water pump. The start up problem could best be described as a "crunching" as I turn the key and the engine starts. Only in the morning I get this, and not every time. Also, I did notice I don't get it as often if I put the key into the "on" position for 10-20 seconds or so. Would a watrerpump issue cause any heating problems, as I'm running at normal temps at the moment.

Can a place like b-quik look at the bearings, if that is the driving noise problem? Dread taking back to Honda, as the charge more for their parts.

Not necessarily as it is possible to still pump but make noise for some time until the seal fails and then it begins to leak water as well, a small puddle under your car mostly when not running it will drip more (not A/C condensation). Often the seal goes first causing all the other problems but it can work both ways..

But now that you've described a "crunching noise" and being able to go around with the key on a minute or two it sounds more like a starter motor problem not properly engaging with the flywheel as T/A mentions.. <deleted> it would be nice to have all these afterthoughts in the original OP ..

Edited September 7, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[saintofsilence]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

Most cars do nothing in neutrall, they just sort of sit there ive found .

Not if they are travelling at 80 klm hr

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks for everyone's input. I never really thought about the water pump. The start up problem could best be described as a "crunching" as I turn the key and the engine starts. Only in the morning I get this, and not every time. Also, I did notice I don't get it as often if I put the key into the "on" position for 10-20 seconds or so. Would a watrerpump issue cause any heating problems, as I'm running at normal temps at the moment.

Can a place like b-quik look at the bearings, if that is the driving noise problem? Dread taking back to Honda, as the charge more for their parts.

If the rubber boots are broken on the cv joints and all the grease has dried up get the driveshaft replaced boots and new grease wont stop the noise.

Not at all true, if caught early enough and properly cleaned and refurbished you can get thousands of k's out of a refurbished CV joint, have literally done hundreds of them and even some have been used in racing without failures when finances have been low..

Anyway new policy, I'm not going to waste time arguing these points anymore I'll answer the OP if he has any more questions but I'm not interested in oneupsmanship or slagging matches, I gave my advice now it's up to the OP..

Having said that given the current environment and lack of quality technicians, replacing a failed one would likely be a better course of action.

Edited September 7, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[Semper]

Thanks for everyone's input. I never really thought about the water pump. The start up problem could best be described as a "crunching" as I turn the key and the engine starts. Only in the morning I get this, and not every time. Also, I did notice I don't get it as often if I put the key into the "on" position for 10-20 seconds or so. Would a watrerpump issue cause any heating problems, as I'm running at normal temps at the moment.

Can a place like b-quik look at the bearings, if that is the driving noise problem? Dread taking back to Honda, as the charge more for their parts.

Not necessarily as it is possible to still pump but make noise for some time until the seal fails and then it begins to leak water as well, a small puddle under your car mostly when not running it will drip more (not A/C condensation). Often the seal goes first causing all the other problems but it can work both ways..

But now that you've described a "crunching noise" and being able to go around with the key on a minute or two it sounds more like a starter motor problem not properly engaging with the flywheel as T/A mentions.. <deleted> it would be nice to have all these afterthoughts in the original OP ..

.. <deleted> it would be nice to have all these afterthoughts in the original OP ..

Agree.

[transam]

Something l/we forgot to mention is noise transfer. Whether front or rear wheel drive, a bearing/mesh problem can, and does transfer the noise to far off places. Had it with a manual that sounded like the diff was naff, same can happen with front wheel drive.

Sorry to complicate stuff but it is a possibility.

[overherebc]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

Really?? What if it's the water pump? Would putting it in neutral shut the water pump off?

Cut the engine is a better alternative.

Shut the engine off and lose power steering and 90% of your braking. IMHO not a good idea.

[Semper]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

Really?? What if it's the water pump? Would putting it in neutral shut the water pump off?

Cut the engine is a better alternative.

Shut the engine off and lose power steering and 90% of your braking. IMHO not a good idea.

Obviously this is a test to determine where the noise is coming from. So one will do it on a stretch of road, without other vehicles around.

[WarpSpeed]

Something l/we forgot to mention is noise transfer. Whether front or rear wheel drive, a bearing/mesh problem can, and does transfer the noise to far off places. Had it with a manual that sounded like the diff was naff, same can happen with front wheel drive.

Sorry to complicate stuff but it is a possibility.

Absolutely! I thought I had a bottom end bearing failing in both cases because the sound was down low where the pump is but reverberating up through the front of the block and it is directly connected with the block. The only proper way to tell was to get under the car while it was running and even then the engine noise makes it difficult and the location of the pump also makes it difficult as it's located in between the power steering pump, the alternator and the A/C compressor so they also have their own sounds to be distinguished from and the belts prevent you from getting very close..

I lieu of an actual stethoscope I used to have for this purpose, a trick I use is to use a long screw driver as a stethoscope and place it on flat surfaces near by the area and press the front of your folded ear against it and it isolates the sound to localize it, you can clearly hear the scraping or the bearing noise, but you must very careful doing this..

Edited September 7, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks for everyone's input. I never really thought about the water pump. The start up problem could best be described as a "crunching" as I turn the key and the engine starts. Only in the morning I get this, and not every time. Also, I did notice I don't get it as often if I put the key into the "on" position for 10-20 seconds or so. Would a watrerpump issue cause any heating problems, as I'm running at normal temps at the moment.

Can a place like b-quik look at the bearings, if that is the driving noise problem? Dread taking back to Honda, as the charge more for their parts.

A motor engineer with experience will suss it. The techniques l have posted with ''my'' hands would probably suss it as l have done in the past. Yes there is movement in the coupling BUT you grab that and feel the trans end bearing movement, if any.

Difficult to put in words the hands on stuff.

Exactly! Difficult to put in words even more so for a novice to understand. You and I both have years of mechanical experience and if the people asking our advice were that well versed they wouldn't ask us here, so I try to give them personal tools and techniques they can relate to having little to no hands on knowledge of what is normal play/tolerances and what is excessive..

Edited September 7, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

a screeching noise upon startup on cold motor. It sounds mechanical - the starter motor?

Sounds very much like a belt noice.

I also get it regularly serviced, so I'm assuming belts are checked.

Potentially dangerous assumption that, from my experience Thai's are not well known for telling you what things need to be replaced they usually rely on you to make the request or waiting until it breaks down. Meaning if you haven't specifically brought it up it may never be checked based on their own initiative..

Edited September 7, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

To test the wheel bearing put the car into neutral when you hear it if the noise stays then that would be a wheel bearing.

Really?? What if it's the water pump? Would putting it in neutral shut the water pump off?

Cut the engine is a better alternative.

Shut the engine off and lose power steering and 90% of your braking. IMHO not a good idea.

Sorry Semper, I agree, that's why I posted these in my post when you first posted it as I thought you were taking a shot..

[culicine]

a screeching noise upon startup on cold motor. It sounds mechanical - the starter motor?

Sounds very much like a belt noice.

I also get it regularly serviced, so I'm assuming belts are checked.

Potentially dangerous assumption that, from my experience Thai's are not well known for telling you what things need to be replaced they usually rely on you to make the request or waiting until it breaks down. Meaning if you haven't specifically brought it up it may never be checked based on their own initiative..

Well I had the 180K service not long ago and that is one of the major service intervals. Honda are pretty quick to replace brake pads even when there still seems to be plenty of life in them. Having a mini in the past I can say I know what broken cv boots and knackered cv joints are like:) The wheel bearing even went on that old car - that was quite a bit more noisy than what I'm experiencing now. I'll get it checked out when I get a chance. Thanks for your, and other's, advice.

[WarpSpeed]

Potentially dangerous assumption that, from my experience Thai's are not well known for telling you what things need to be replaced they usually rely on you to make the request or waiting until it breaks down. Meaning if you haven't specifically brought it up it may never be checked based on their own initiative..

Well I had the 180K service not long ago and that is one of the major service intervals. Honda are pretty quick to replace brake pads even when there still seems to be plenty of life in them. Having a mini in the past I can say I know what broken cv boots and knackered cv joints are like:) The wheel bearing even went on that old car - that was quite a bit more noisy than what I'm experiencing now. I'll get it checked out when I get a chance. Thanks for your, and other's, advice.

Mai pen rai, hope it helps and it works out for you..