Chalerm Slams Abhisit Govt For Pardon Plea Delay

[webfact]

Chalerm slams Abhisit govt for pardon plea delay

By The Nation

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung and red-shirt leaders yesterday accused the previous government of intentionally dragging its feet on an appeal by the red shirts seeking a royal pardon for fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Chalerm dismissed as rumour media reports that the current government planned to discuss whether to seek a royal pardon for Thaksin.

"There is no discussion. This is a rumour. The government has not done anything about this matter," he said.

The deputy premier said the previous Democrat-led administration had shelved the petition by millions of red shirts seeking a royal pardon for Thaksin. "Don't think that people don't know what you did," he said.

He said the previous government failed to give an early recommendation to the Royal Household Bureau on what to do about the red shirts' petition.

The government instead ordered verification of the people taking part in the signature campaign. Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said yesterday she was not aware of plans by any member of the Shinawatra family to seek a royal pardon for Thaksin on His Majesty the King's birthday on December 5.

"We have not talked about this and it is not government policy. I am a member of this family, too," she said, in response to a media report.

Yingluck is the youngest of Thaksin's siblings.

The red-shirt movement's chairwoman, Thida Thawornseth, yesterday said that the previous government had "detained" the red shirts' petition for two years without referring it to the Royal Household Bureau.

"They violated the royal power by making their own decision on the matter. It's not their business and they had no power to do so," she said.

Spokesman for the movement, Worawut Wichaidit, said that without the current "people's government", the red- shirts' petition "may have been imprisoned forever".

Veerakan Musigapong, former chairman of the red-shirt movement, said the red shirts were not pressuring the government to seek royal amnesty for Thaksin. In response to concerns that the issue could revive political conflict and draw opposition from people disagreeing with the amnesty, he said the red shirts have the right to do so.

He also said there was a case for arguing that a person granted a royal pardon did not have to serve his term first, as had been suggested by Thaksin's critics. However, he declined to identify the source.

Justice Minister Pracha Promnok yesterday appointed a 10-member committee to look into the petition for Thaksin's amnesty.

The panel is headed by Assistant Professor Wuthisak Lapcharoe-nsap, rector of Ramkhamhaeng University.

The panel's mission is to gather facts and details regarding the petition and relevant laws, as well as to determine whether it is in accordance with the law and whether royal pardon should be sought.

-- The Nation 2011-09-08

[webfact]

Before you post your comment please take note:

Many people have been losing their posting rights or receiving suspensions because they continue to make comments on the Monarchy, and members of the Thai Royal Family in a political context. This is in violation of Thai law which explicitly states that The Monarchy is above politics.

- Do not make any accusations about any individual's or groups' loyalty toward The Monarchy.

- Do not speculate on the opinions of any member of The Royal Family.

- Do not discuss succession or speculate on the future of The Monarchy.

Thank you for your co-operation and understanding

/Admin

[phupaman]

Hi All.

Surely if the powers that be refuse Amnesty , That would be the biggest signal yet to the PT Gov

o drop the whole issue , after all he is a criminal on the run.

phupaman

Edited September 8, 2011 by webfact
/warning quote removed /Admin

[Ricardo]

Deputy-PM Chalerm says that "the government has not done anything about this matter".

But the OP also says that the Justice Minister has yesterday appointed a committee to look into the petition. Some contradiction there ?

I think Thaksin ought perhaps to be entitled to a full-refund plus interest, of any contributions he may have made, to help get PTP elected ! What's the point of owning a political-party if it doesn't do as you want ?

[moe666]

Grant the pardon, with the stimpulation absolutely no politics for life, if he breaks this royal mandate he will go to jail for life and forfit his fortune to the state. He would last about 2 days before he opened his mouth.

[tlansford]

Deputy-PM Chalerm says that "the government has not done anything about this matter".

But the OP also says that the Justice Minister has yesterday appointed a committee to look into the petition. Some contradiction there ?

I think Thaksin ought perhaps to be entitled to a full-refund plus interest, of any contributions he may have made, to help get PTP elected ! What's the point of owning a political-party if it doesn't do as you want ?

I agree that the wording in this article is not clear.

The only way that I see for it to not be contradictory is if they are talking about 2 separate requests for a pardon, one being the petition that was submitted by the people 2 years ago, and a second being a request made by this current government.

But I'm not certain what The Nation meant to say, either.

[hammered]

Its politics. Of course the anti-Thaksinistas delayed it and of course the Thaksinistas accelerate it.

[KKvampire]

Why should Red Shirts thugs who used ammunition and fire bombed only a year a go be granted a pardon? Oh Chalerm you pathetic excuse for a Deputy is this a result of discussions with your "Political Thug Advisor Son"

Edited September 8, 2011 by KKvampire

[webfact]

Democrat MP: Amnesty Violates Legal Equality

A Democrat Party MP has deemed the effort to seek a royal pardon for former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra illegal and in conflict with the principle of equality before the law.

Citing Article 260 of the Criminal Procedure Act, Democrat Party MP for Songkhla and Deputy Leader Thaworn Seniam said those who seek a royal pardon must serve their prison term before they are able to make such a request.

He added that during the Thaksin Shinawatra administration, there was a case in which a similar request was rejected by the court.

Thaworn said the current government pushing for amnesty of convicted former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is against the principle of legal egalitarianism.

He noted that the ex-premier should receive his sentence first to set an example; otherwise, the public would think he is really a mastermind behind the amnesty campaign by the red-shirt group and the Pheu Thai Party.

Bhum Jai Thai Party-list MP Supachai Jaisamut said members of his party will propose a draft amnesty bill for the convicted who have served or have yet to serve their sentences, as well as state officials who faced disciplinary action between December 5, 2007 to December 5 of this year, in honor of His Majesty the King's 84th birthday.

He insisted that the proposed bill does not involve Thaksin.

Meanwhile, the Department of Special Investigation has submitted a letter to the House Speaker asking to investigate a speech made by nine red-shirt leaders during the group's gathering to commemorate the unrest in Bangkok on April 10 last year, as it was seen as a threat to national security and could be in violation of Criminal Law.

The investigation could lead to the revocation of legal indemnity for nine red-shirt MPs.

-- Tan Network 2011-09-08

[Buchholz]

Grant the pardon, with the stimpulation absolutely no politics for life, if he breaks this royal mandate he will go to jail for life and forfit his fortune to the state. He would last about 2 days before he opened his mouth.

Absolutely no pardon.

He's looking to have those things "go to jail for life and forfit his fortune to the state" happen to him anyway without having to give away yet another hollow "I promise to quit politics" opportunity to him.

He's made that empty promise 500 times already.

.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Buchholz

[hanuman1]

At some point in the next couple of years, Thaksin's going to be pardoned.

We all know it, there are plenty of signs. Some people just can't accept it.

[Buchholz]

Its politics. Of course the anti-Thaksinistas delayed it and of course the Thaksinistas accelerate it.

It's also about stupidity.

Their complaint of delay evaporates if but one of the plethora of the Shinawatra clan had submitted the request.

No, they couldn't do that. They wanted to showboat their 6 million signatures (revised down later to the actual 3.6 million) on it. Well, gee, as with all petitions the need to verify the validity of them needs to be done.

If any one of the litter had submitted it, eg. our esteemed PM or his brother Payup (or else)©, verification could have been done very quickly.... but when you need to have millions verified, it's going to take some time.

The need for the verification was validated when nearly half of these Red Shirt entries turned out to be bogus, including the entry by the aforementioned Payup (or else)© .

.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Buchholz

[hammered]

I find it amazing that so many people are commenting on what the decision should be considering who actually makes it has the prerogative to decide. It is one thing to argue to submit or not and that should happen only when conditions are met, but to start to say which way the decision should go seems an amazing step. This should be discussed at the level of what is legally required to submit and not go to other issues. I think soft red Veera makes that point well in the unmentionable one today.

By the way, does anyone know what case it is to which Veera is refering when he says someone has already been pardoned who had never served a jail term?

[h90]

I think the pardon plea is is a bad idea as it drags the monarchy into politics.

But simply not processing it like the democrats did it is even worse.

If they don't want it: Tell it is inappropriate and tell it will not be forwarded but just not doing anything and wait is coward.

[Thaddeus]

Do you know, I wake up every morning wondering what new delights the news clippings section has in store for the day, it never fails to please.

[Buchholz]

Deputy-PM Chalerm says that "the government has not done anything about this matter".

But the OP also says that the Justice Minister has yesterday appointed a committee to look into the petition. Some contradiction there ?

I think Thaksin ought perhaps to be entitled to a full-refund plus interest, of any contributions he may have made, to help get PTP elected ! What's the point of owning a political-party if it doesn't do as you want ?

I agree that the wording in this article is not clear.

The only way that I see for it to not be contradictory is if they are talking about 2 separate requests for a pardon, one being the petition that was submitted by the people 2 years ago, and a second being a request made by this current government.

But I'm not certain what The Nation meant to say, either.

There's but 1 Royal Pardon request.

It was prepared and submitted by the Red Shirts.

As per protocol it goes first to the Corrections Department.

From there it goes to the Justice Minister, which is where it is now. He has decided to set up this committee to review it.

Chalerm's complaint is that it took too long to reach the Justice Minister, which as said, could have been avoided if it hadn't involved the need for 3.6 million verifications to be completed.

It'll be interesting to see if Chalerm complains that it takes too long to leave the Justice Minister. There's no timeline for this appointed committee to complete their review.

.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Buchholz

[Moruya]

At some point in the next couple of years, Thaksin's going to be pardoned.

We all know it, there are plenty of signs. Some people just can't accept it.

keep takibg your medication.

[Insight]

At some point in the next couple of years, Thaksin's going to be pardoned.

We all know it, there are plenty of signs. Some people just can't accept it.

"Some" ?

Wait and see.

[hanuman1]

At some point in the next couple of years, Thaksin's going to be pardoned.

We all know it, there are plenty of signs. Some people just can't accept it.

"Some" ?

Wait and see.

Okay then.

[Buchholz]

I find it amazing that so many people are commenting on what the decision should be considering who actually makes it has the prerogative to decide. It is one thing to argue to submit or not and that should happen only when conditions are met, but to start to say which way the decision should go seems an amazing step. This should be discussed at the level of what is legally required to submit and not go to other issues. I think soft red Veera makes that point well in the unmentionable one today.

By the way, does anyone know what case it is to which Veera is refering when he says someone has already been pardoned who had never served a jail term?

I agree entirely with your first paragraph. To say that it is definitively going to be granted, let alone implying everyone knows it, is excessive. As it is to say it won't be granted.

My opposition to the pardon is that it shouldn't be submitted in the first place.

As for Veera's claim, it's completely hollow of course if he fails to specify who is talking about. If it was said on here, posters would legitimately request "a link."

There's also the matter of him being an indicted Red Shirt Leader that lessens his credibility to say there's precedence for pardoning someone who has never served prison time, but then refusing to cite the particulars.

It also followed the statement earlier:

Did Police Captain Chalerm's legal brief cite ANY previous occasion where a fugitive was granted a Royal Pardon?

Or ANY situation when a Royal Pardon was granted to anyone who had not served so much as even a day of their sentence?

Or ANY convict who received a Royal Pardon who had never admitted guilt?

I got an answer to my second question today from PTP coalition partner, Chartthaipattana Party-list MP Sanan Kachornprasart. The 78 year-old, long-time politician said that he had never seen it occur before.

It's also interesting that he further elaborated that this pardon maneuver, by their coalition partner party, is likely to cause conflict.

[hammered]

I find it amazing that so many people are commenting on what the decision should be considering who actually makes it has the prerogative to decide. It is one thing to argue to submit or not and that should happen only when conditions are met, but to start to say which way the decision should go seems an amazing step. This should be discussed at the level of what is legally required to submit and not go to other issues. I think soft red Veera makes that point well in the unmentionable one today.

By the way, does anyone know what case it is to which Veera is refering when he says someone has already been pardoned who had never served a jail term?

I agree entirely with your first paragraph. To say that it is definitively going to be granted, let alone implying everyone knows it, is excessive. As it is to say it won't be granted.

My opposition to the pardon is that it shouldn't be submitted in the first place.

As for Veera's claim, it's completely hollow of course if he fails to specify who is talking about. If it was said on here, posters would legitimately request "a link."

There's also the matter of him being an indicted Red Shirt Leader that lessens his credibility to say there's precedence for pardoning someone who has never served prison time, but then refusing to cite the particulars.

It also followed the statement earlier:

Did Police Captain Chalerm's legal brief cite ANY previous occasion where a fugitive was granted a Royal Pardon?

Or ANY situation when a Royal Pardon was granted to anyone who had not served so much as even a day of their sentence?

Or ANY convict who received a Royal Pardon who had never admitted guilt?

I got an answer to my second question today from PTP coalition partner, Chartthaipattana Party-list MP Sanan Kachornprasart. The 78 year-old, long-time politician said that he had never seen it occur before.

It's also interesting that he further elaborated that this pardon maneuver, by their coalition partner party, is likely to cause conflict.

Veera's claim certainly needs to be substantiated. I still think the legislative amnesty is the route that will be tried. BJT an opposition party have said they will introduce one for all charged since 2007 but say they wont include Thaksin. That is going to get the double standard thing going again but create even more precedents on top of all the coup makers who use the route to never face criminal charge

[Buchholz]

Did Police Captain Chalerm's legal brief cite ANY previous occasion where a fugitive was granted a Royal Pardon?

Or ANY situation when a Royal Pardon was granted to anyone who had not served so much as even a day of their sentence?

Or ANY convict who received a Royal Pardon who had never admitted guilt?

I got an answer to my second question today from PTP coalition partner, Chartthaipattana Party-list MP Sanan Kachornprasart. The 78 year-old, long-time politician said that he had never seen it occur before.

It's also interesting that he further elaborated that this pardon maneuver, by their coalition partner party, is likely to cause conflict.

Veera's claim certainly needs to be substantiated. I still think the legislative amnesty is the route that will be tried. BJT an opposition party have said they will introduce one for all charged since 2007 but say they wont include Thaksin. That is going to get the double standard thing going again but create even more precedents on top of all the coup makers who use the route to never face criminal charge

Veera's juvenile "I've got a secret, but I'm not telling" game is for children. Totally dis-believable until he names and shames.

Probably best to separate the amnesty issue out of this thread, but I will say it is going to be muddled and haggled about for who to include (Thaksin, military, Reds, yellows, etc.) and for what. I envision multiple cries of double standards from multiple sources along every step, although time will be critical with the wedding attendance coming nearer.

,

Edited September 8, 2011 by Buchholz

[tlansford]

Its politics. Of course the anti-Thaksinistas delayed it and of course the Thaksinistas accelerate it.

It's also about stupidity.

Their complaint of delay evaporates if but one of the plethora of the Shinawatra clan had submitted the request.

No, they couldn't do that. They wanted to showboat their 6 million signatures (revised down later to the actual 3.6 million) on it. Well, gee, as with all petitions the need to verify the validity of them needs to be done.

If any one of the litter had submitted it, eg. our esteemed PM or his brother Payup (or else)©, verification could have been done very quickly.... but when you need to have millions verified, it's going to take some time.

The need for the verification was validated when nearly half of these Red Shirt entries turned out to be bogus, including the entry by the aforementioned Payup (or else)© .

.

The Dems have always said that the petition was not legal. They said it in 2009 and they say it today.

Then PM Abhisit said in 2009 that the government would not act because the petition was illegal.

In light of that, I think that verification would never have been done quickly by a Democratic administration.

[Thai at Heart]

Its politics. Of course the anti-Thaksinistas delayed it and of course the Thaksinistas accelerate it.

It's also about stupidity.

Their complaint of delay evaporates if but one of the plethora of the Shinawatra clan had submitted the request.

No, they couldn't do that. They wanted to showboat their 6 million signatures (revised down later to the actual 3.6 million) on it. Well, gee, as with all petitions the need to verify the validity of them needs to be done.

If any one of the litter had submitted it, eg. our esteemed PM or his brother Payup (or else)©, verification could have been done very quickly.... but when you need to have millions verified, it's going to take some time.

The need for the verification was validated when nearly half of these Red Shirt entries turned out to be bogus, including the entry by the aforementioned Payup (or else)© .

.

The Dems have always said that the petition was not legal. They said it in 2009 and they say it today.

Then PM Abhisit said in 2009 that the government would not act because the petition was illegal.

In light of that, I think that verification would never have been done quickly by a Democratic administration.

Well, was it the party who said it was illegal, or some part of the legal system that said it was illegal?

[Buchholz]

Its politics. Of course the anti-Thaksinistas delayed it and of course the Thaksinistas accelerate it.

It's also about stupidity.

Their complaint of delay evaporates if but one of the plethora of the Shinawatra clan had submitted the request.

No, they couldn't do that. They wanted to showboat their 6 million signatures (revised down later to the actual 3.6 million) on it. Well, gee, as with all petitions the need to verify the validity of them needs to be done.

If any one of the litter had submitted it, eg. our esteemed PM or his brother Payup (or else)©, verification could have been done very quickly.... but when you need to have millions verified, it's going to take some time.

The need for the verification was validated when nearly half of these Red Shirt entries turned out to be bogus, including the entry by the aforementioned Payup (or else)© .

.

The Dems have always said that the petition was not legal. They said it in 2009 and they say it today.

Then PM Abhisit said in 2009 that the government would not act because the petition was illegal.

In light of that, I think that verification would never have been done quickly by a Democratic administration.

Abhisit opposed it, but I'd like to see what your specific reference for the Dems and he saying it was illegal and would not act on it.

Going back to the original thread, I didn't see that. Although if they have said they considered it illegal, they certainly aren't alone in that opinion. From that thread, all 29 Permanent Secretaries shared that. Even those appointed by Thaksin and Samak. Unanimous in their interpretation.

3.5 million verifications is 3.5 million. Diligence takes time.

One has to consider their love of big numbers and their rationale for them... an example from that same thread shows their mindset of bigger is better:

Red Shirts to collect 10 million names to impeach premier

BANGKOK, Aug 20 (TNA) - A key leader of anti-government United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) said on Thursday that the group will collect ten million signatures to impeach Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajijva.

"Mr Abhisit has intervened with the Royal Thai Police and apparently opposed the Red Shirt's petition seeking a royal pardon for former premier Thaksin Shinawatra" said the UDD leader.

"We will proceed our impeachment petition under the law," said Mr Jatuporn. "Although the law requires only 20,000 signatures for the petition, we will collect more than 10 million names of eligible voters in the country as we want to show that they do not want Mr Abhisit to be their prime minister."

-- TNA 20/08/09

[Buchholz]

Interestingly enough, also in that thread, were the words of an unknown at the time.

He's blossomed into the current Foreign Minister.

Curious as to what happened with this as I found no mention of the Reds or PTP following up on this aspect.

He could have single-handedly requested the pardon himself and then the Reds would not have had to wait for millions of their petition signatures to be verified (half of which were invalid).

btw, the bizarreness of the Foreign Minister was evident back then for his other comments.

Pheu Thai MPs say he is Thaksin's relative so petition is valid

Pheu Thai Party MP Surapong Towichakchaikul said he is a distant relative of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and he had signed the Thaksin pardon petition.

Surapong said the petition was valid because he, a relative, had signed the petition.

Earlier, the government said a petition must be signed and submitted by a relative.

Surapong said his aunt is married to Sathien Shinawatra, an uncle of Thaksin.

Surapong said the petition was also signed by Prakit Shinawatra, who is a cousin of Thaksin.

Surapong said it was the first time that he disclosed the information that he is a relative of Thaksin. He has been keeping it secret for fear that someone might attach him as using connection to gain a position in the party.

-- The Nation 18/08/09

[sfbandung]

Interestingly enough, also in that thread, were the words of an unknown at the time.

He's blossomed into the current Foreign Minister.

Curious as to what happened with this as I found no mention of the Reds or PTP following up on this aspect.

He could have single-handedly requested the pardon himself and then the Reds would not have had to wait for millions of their petition signatures to be verified (half of which were invalid).

btw, the bizarreness of the Foreign Minister was evident back then for his other comments.

Pheu Thai MPs say he is Thaksin's relative so petition is valid

Pheu Thai Party MP Surapong Towichakchaikul said he is a distant relative of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and he had signed the Thaksin pardon petition.

Surapong said the petition was valid because he, a relative, had signed the petition.

Earlier, the government said a petition must be signed and submitted by a relative.

Surapong said his aunt is married to Sathien Shinawatra, an uncle of Thaksin.

Surapong said the petition was also signed by Prakit Shinawatra, who is a cousin of Thaksin.

Surapong said it was the first time that he disclosed the information that he is a relative of Thaksin. He has been keeping it secret for fear that someone might attach him as using connection to gain a position in the party.

-- The Nation 18/08/09

Bizarre indeed.

For my two bahts' worth, and I know I'm simply agreeing with lots of you above, but the petition should not be submitted at all for the obvious reason that it forces the monarchy to become involved in politics.

I'm a boring old bastard, but the rule of law and judicial process must prevail, particularly in this case. Thaksin's party and family are back in power, there is no better time for him to return and face the music. He may even win some respect from his detractors. Nobody, anywhere, likes a coward. And that's what you are when you run away. If he truly loves Thailand then he should love the fact that it is a thriving deomcracy with an independent judiciary.

[ToffeEFCpower]

The monarchy would never grant a pardon to an innocent man. So why is Thaksin begging for one?

[groovyc]

May I take the liberty to slightly deviate from the topic:

Can anyone tell me (Don't get me wrong, I am not challenging here, just curious!) what stops the current government from

prosecuting everyone related to the 2006 coup (which is clearly treason) and invalidate everything that happened under

the military regime until the following election? Surely a court has to decide on the latter, but they even have the mandate to

make some new laws - albeit retrospectively - if needed!

Okay, one answer is that this may not be conducive towards "reconciliation". Anything other than that?

Again, I am not trying to pick a fight here, so serious replies only please!

[tlansford]

Abhisit opposed it, but I'd like to see what your specific reference for the Dems and he saying it was illegal and would not act on it.

There are several references, and the Dems at the time often said it was not legal. The reference where then PM Abhisit said it was illegal and the gov't would not act on it was probably from an old report in The Nation... maybe from the Post.

It's not terribly relevant now.