U.S. says it will veto Palestinian statehood bid at the UN

[Scott]

Six posts removed; one off-topic and the remainder were responses to it.

Make that seven.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Scott
added another deletion

[flying]

the USA gets values for the dollars spent on Israel;

Without even getting into all the specifics...

That is a silly statement when the light of financial ruin is shined on it.

Edited September 10, 2011 by flying

[flying]

However the vast majority of global Jews fully support the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign Jewish state and make no apologizes to anyone for that.

I think you could even expand that to all humans tend to agree everyone has the right to exist.

Not just the Israeli's but everyone...even the Palestinians

[Wallaby]

That's an interesting statement to make about your own country. Take the money we give you away and you are against us would mean your loyalty is for sale to the highest bidder.

There are a lot of Ozzies who would be very offended by that kind of slur and Wallaby is Australian himself.

There are many more that wouldn't be. I am not an australian.

Yes chuckd, that is exactly the case,

Edited September 10, 2011 by Wallaby

[Ulysses G.]

However the vast majority of global Jews fully support the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign Jewish state and make no apologizes to anyone for that.

I think you could even expand that to all humans tend to agree everyone has the right to exist.

Not just the Israeli's but everyone...even the Palestinians

I am pretty sure that most "Palestinians" do not think that Israelis have a right to exist in Israel.

[Steely Dan]

However the vast majority of global Jews fully support the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign Jewish state and make no apologizes to anyone for that.

I think you could even expand that to all humans tend to agree everyone has the right to exist.

Not just the Israeli's but everyone...even the Palestinians

I am pretty sure that most "Palestinians" do not think that Israelis have a right to exist in Israel.

It is indeed amazing the amount of indignation surrounding the possible formation of a 52nd Islamic state, especially considering the worlds only Jewish state is getting in the way and would cease to exist if a so called 'right of return' was recognized. What chutzpah.

[flying]

I am pretty sure that most "Palestinians" do not think that Israelis have a right to exist in Israel.

Well I cannot say with 100% certainty.

But I would guess that if ever they actually sit down & treat each other fairly

something could hopefully be agreed on.

As it stands I believe the majority of the world as I said would not wish to deny either side the right to exist.

But that "Right To Exist" is often repeated loudly without regard for the other side it seems. As such it is seen as hypocritical for either side to make such a claim

It will not be an easy problem to solve.

Even now in Israel they had that 400 thousand march over (among other things) lack of housing

Yet if they continue to build on land deemed not theirs for settlements the trouble will continue.

IF they don't the internal trouble will get worse. There is only so much land.

Hopefully wars will not end up settling it with a massive albeit temporary reductions in population

Edited September 10, 2011 by flying

[Ulysses G.]

I am pretty sure that most "Palestinians" do not think that Israelis have a right to exist in Israel.

Well I cannot say with 100% certainty.

But I would guess that if ever they actually sit down & treat each other fairly

something could hopefully be agreed on.

Agreed, but I would guess that the chances of that happening any time soon are very slim.

[Steely Dan]

Here is another view of the current Palestinian statehood bid, which is one I happen to subscribe to. Like it or not, we are all Israel.

[Pakboong]

To me it is a simple matter of an ethnic group roughly 14 million strong, convincing the remaining 7 billion of the world's population that it is perfectly reasonable to exist while maintaining a largely segregationist society. The concept of "Hebrew Labor Only" (Invoda ivrit) used traditionally to advertise a business as Jewish Only. The original use of the terms gave it some legitimacy as it was used to coax Jews into the new Israel after WW2. At the time, it was described as a campaign to reduce (Jewish) immigrant unemployment and to solidify the Jewish Yishuv as an independent economic polity in Mandatory Palestine.

It is now used for purposes of segregation and is often used by Israeli businesses to advertise in the Yellow Pages of the local phone books. It could say Whites only or any other such remark which are considered inappropriate and damaging to any particular group, be it ethnic, racial, social, sexual, etc...

The idea of a "Jewish State" means different things to different people but there is significant evidence that it is intended to mean "Jewish Only".

[chuckd]

To me it is a simple matter of an ethnic group roughly 14 million strong, convincing the remaining 7 billion of the world's population that it is perfectly reasonable to exist while maintaining a largely segregationist society. The concept of "Hebrew Labor Only" (Invoda ivrit) used traditionally to advertise a business as Jewish Only. The original use of the terms gave it some legitimacy as it was used to coax Jews into the new Israel after WW2. At the time, it was described as a campaign to reduce (Jewish) immigrant unemployment and to solidify the Jewish Yishuv as an independent economic polity in Mandatory Palestine.

It is now used for purposes of segregation and is often used by Israeli businesses to advertise in the Yellow Pages of the local phone books. It could say Whites only or any other such remark which are considered inappropriate and damaging to any particular group, be it ethnic, racial, social, sexual, etc...

The idea of a "Jewish State" means different things to different people but there is significant evidence that it is intended to mean "Jewish Only".

Is this anything like Thailand advertising for Thai citizens only in nearly all positions?

[Ulysses G.]

The idea of a "Jewish State" means different things to different people but there is significant evidence that it is intended to mean "Jewish Only".

That does not make any sense. Something like 20% of the country are Arabs with Israeli citizenship and the vast majority of them accept the principle that Israel is the state of the Jewish people. I think that you barking up the wrong tree.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[up-country_sinclair]

Like it or not, we are all Israel.

Like it or not, no we aren't. Not even close.

In fact, the upcoming vote at the UN is going to make it clear in no uncertain terms that the overwhelming majority of the world's nations side with the Palestinians.

[Ulysses G.]

Not the one that count.

[Credo]

My hunch is that a lot of people aren't pro-Palestinian, they are simply anti-Israel.

Palestine as a country is going to start out basically as a failed state, I am afraid. With statehood comes responsibility and that seems like a long shot at this point.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Credo

[Ulysses G.]

My hunch is that a lot of people aren't pro-Palestinian, they are simply anti-Israel.

Anti-Israel? From some of the hateful WW2 propoganda, bizarre links and Illuminati conspiracy theories that I have seen posted on this forum, I think that you could stretch that a little further.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Credo]

The problem for the people of Palestine is that if they gain statehood, they will be expected to start acting like a real country and take responsibility for their actions. I don't know that they are ready for that.

The countries that use them as a proxy for their varied positions on Israel, the West etc., will have little use for them if they do start to act in a responsible manner. They will have to form a functioning government and have policies towards a variety of things, not just Israel.

As it is now, it's a little like divorced parents trying to buy the kids off. That will stop and it will not be a very well-off country.

[Ulysses G.]

As someone mentioned before, with the world economy in the doldrums, there are not going to be a lot of handouts to keep them afloat.

[geriatrickid]

Not the one that count.

And not the ones that pay the bills. I find it interesting that the countries that resist fiscal accountability and transparency at the UN are the ones that fly their staff in 1st class, have lavish UN missions, and that don't pay the costs of the UN. Let the Islamic voting block pay their fair share of the UN costs. and I will be more understanding of their positions.

[geriatrickid]

My hunch is that a lot of people aren't pro-Palestinian, they are simply anti-Israel.

Palestine as a country is going to start out basically as a failed state, I am afraid. With statehood comes responsibility and that seems like a long shot at this point.

For some, it is easier to get away with hate speech directed at Israelis. They don't storm embassies or send suicide bombers or announce jihads against people that disagree. Ever notice that the arabs are never held to the same loft standards we expect of the Israelis? Somewhat racist in my view as it is tantamount to saying that arabs are not capable of such high standards.

[up-country_sinclair]

As someone mentioned before, with the world economy in the doldrums, there are not going to be a lot of handouts to keep them afloat.

What's this?

The US is no longer going to write billion dollar welfare checks to Israel?

I wasn't aware of that, but it's welcome news.

Edited September 10, 2011 by up-country_sinclair

[geriatrickid]

As someone mentioned before, with the world economy in the doldrums, there are not going to be a lot of handouts to keep them afloat.

What's this?

The US is no longer going to write billion dollar welfare checks to Israel?

I wasn't aware of that, but it's welcome news.

The USA does not write billion dollar cheques to israel. For the umpteenth time, the aid and loans provided to Israel are funneled back into the USA because of the linkage to the purchase of US goods and services. The funds serve as an important subsidy to American industry. It is a roundabout way of supporting key industrial sectors. It's alot like Brazil subsidizing Embraer's sales of aircraft through the use of development funds to client states, or Japan and Germany providing development grants and loans to thailand to build a subway, or Korea dumping Hyundai steel and vehicles to support the major military supplier. When China offers millions to African countries, they aren't doing so because the Chinese are caring compassionate souls. Unlike many other countries, the American aid is transparent. No one ever questions the money Russia and China toss about.

[Ulysses G.]

As someone mentioned before, with the world economy in the doldrums, there are not going to be a lot of handouts to keep them afloat.

What's this?

This thread is about the Palestinian Arabs asking for a state that they can not possibly make work. Put on your reading glasses.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

Like it or not, we are all Israel.

Like it or not, no we aren't. Not even close.

In fact, the upcoming vote at the UN is going to make it clear in no uncertain terms that the overwhelming majority of the world's nations side with the Palestinians.

Let's just say we are all Israel, but the useful idiots don't yet know it; that's why they are so useful. :jap:

[flying]

What's this?

The US is no longer going to write billion dollar welfare checks to Israel?

I wasn't aware of that, but it's welcome news.

The USA does not write billion dollar cheques to israel. For the umpteenth time, the aid and loans provided to Israel are funneled back into the USA because of the linkage to the purchase of US goods and services.

You can keep saying it but the fact is that of the roughly 3 billion given per year

1.8-Billion is military aid/grant & 1.2-Billion is economic

The bottom line once again is a Nation that is spinning down the drain into financial ruin & as a result is rapidly devaluing its own currency...cannot afford to give what they themselves do not have.

The USA has only 58% employed at this time....40 MILLION on food assistance...million without homes due to foreclosure caused by unemployment.

Yet even to Israel alone we give 8 million a day of that which we do not have? That is a form of beyond the beyond insanity.

It is the citizens of the US who are being ruined & it is the government too. They will once again this Monday be hitting the debt ceiling.

Even though it was just a month or two ago that we increased it yet again over a trillion dollars.Where did that money come from?

It came from us in the form of devalued savings, devalued purchasing power & more.

While it is a form of default/controlled crash/bankruptcy we are currently in it is still possible to turn it into a stall & snap roll into the ground if this keeps up.

Once again let me be clear it is not just Israel that needs to stop feeding off this financially dying nation.

Will they give us 3 billion a year once we snap roll into the ground? Will other debtor nations forgive our debt?

To give what we ourselves do not have plunging our country deeper into financial default is....Beyond the beyond insanity

Edited September 10, 2011 by flying

[cheeryble]

Sad for the large minority of Israelis who detest their own country's policies.

It's good that you see that Israelis and "Jews" are not a monolithic entity. It seems many Israel opponents don't. However the vast majority of global Jews fully support the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign Jewish state and make no apologizes to anyone for that.

.....not my friend of 40 years, an American Jew who thinks it would be better if Israel went down the plughole and only half-jokingly asked where he could sign up as a terrorist

Nor another friend an ex Israeli paratrooper who left Israel in disgust and thinks it's shameful.

I personally see no reason why they should get preferential treatment after the evidence is they don't deserve to be where they are. I would only demur about letting them disappear up their own fundament because of my sorrow for the decent minority.

Cheeryble

[cheeryble]

Sad for the large minority of Israelis who detest their own country's policies.

It's good that you see that Israelis and "Jews" are not a monolithic entity.

Nor are Jews a monolithic entity they vary like chalk from cheese both physically and in intellect between the imported ruling Ashkenazies and the original Eastern Jews, and in outlook from Zionist to liberal.

.........However the vast majority of global Jews fully support the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign Jewish state and make no apologizes to anyone for that.

.....not my friend of 40 years, an American Jew who thinks it would be better if Israel went down the plughole and only half-jokingly asked where he could sign up as a terrorist

Nor another friend an ex Israeli paratrooper who left Israel in disgust and thinks it's shameful.

I personally see no reason why they should get preferential treatment given unforgivable actions like the recent 100 for 1 collective murder of the Gazans, something which would have the Hague working overtime for any other nation. I would only demur about letting Israel disappear up it's own fundament because of my pity for the decent minority.

Cheeryble

[Jingthing]

Sad for the large minority of Israelis who detest their own country's policies.

It's good that you see that Israelis and "Jews" are not a monolithic entity. It seems many Israel opponents don't. However the vast majority of global Jews fully support the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign Jewish state and make no apologizes to anyone for that.

.....not my friend of 40 years, an American Jew who thinks it would be better if Israel went down the plughole and only half-jokingly asked where he could sign up as a terrorist

Nor another friend an ex Israeli paratrooper who left Israel in disgust and thinks it's shameful.

I personally see no reason why they should get preferential treatment after the evidence is they don't deserve to be where they are. I would only demur about letting them disappear up their own fundament because of my sorrow for the decent minority.

Cheeryble

I am talking about the VAST MAJORITY of millions of people and I can give PROOF for my assertion. You have personally met two exceptions.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?ID=221750&R=R1

94% say that if Jewish state "no longer existed tomorrow," it would be a "tragedy."

I have read a survey of all Jews in the world saying over 90 percent support the right of the Jewish state of Israel to EXIST. Sorry, don't have the link for that, but considering Israel and the USA are the top two Jewish population countries, I think the link above is good enough to squelch any absurd assertions that most Jews don't support Israel's existence.

Next ...

Double next!

[flying]

I can give PROOF for my assertion.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?ID=221750&R=R1

I have read a survey of all Jews in the world

jpost = proof?

ALL the Jews in the world?...Really?

ummm Triple Next?

[Jingthing]

I can give PROOF for my assertion.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?ID=221750&R=R1

I have read a survey of all Jews in the world

jpost = proof?

ALL the Jews in the world?...Really?

ummm Triple Next?

You're just being silly. There aren't many Jews in the world (much less than one percent of global population). There WOULD be plenty more if not for the genocidal history, but there aren't and those that do exist like the idea of there being ONE Jewish state in a world which sports over 50 Islamic states. Most Jews these days are in the USA and Israel. You may mock my sentence before about the poll of global Jewry but it CLEARLY meant it was a POLL which was a SAMPLE of global Jewry, like ANY POLL. When you say POLL, it is IMPLIED you are talking about a sampling. Even you didn't believe it was a survey of ALL the Jews so what's your intention of mocking me for something we all know I didn't mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

Again, given these population statistics, we can assume Israeli Jews want their state to exist, and the vast majority of American Jews wants Jewish Israel to exist, so that's about 80 percent of global Jews just with two countries.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Jingthing