E85 In Thailand? What'S The Deal With This Fuel?

[MoonRiverOasis]

E85 will be priced at 22 baht per liter (according to the news at bangkok post) so it is not that cheap when you consider 30% drop in milage.

30% is an outside figure that's often bandied about - however, the Thai market Mitsu Lancer EX 1.8L FFV loses ~22% FE on E85, and the 2.4L FFV Captiva loses ~20% FE (both compared to 91 RON benzene).

Either way, for these two vehicles it's a win.

And when gasoline prices raise again in 11 months time, even better for the FFV's.

Volvos S80 2,5FT auto running E85 returns 7km/liter according to Volvo, while my practical experience with this engine in V70 auto is 9-10km/liter 95 RON petrol, so on paper perhaps 11-12km/l

Yep, not a shining example

E85 has ~25% less calorific value than straight gasoline, ~23% less than E10, and ~20% less than E20. But the higher octane of E85 with the correct amount of spark advance and enough compression gives E85 the ability to have a more complete burn, so these numbers don't tell the whole story.

With today's engine tech it's quite feasible to narrow the fuel effeciency gap down to within 11-15%, with the correct implementation/effort.

Edited September 18, 2011 by MoonRiverOasis

[stjp8729]

E85 will be priced at 22 baht per liter (according to the news at bangkok post) so it is not that cheap when you consider 30% drop in milage.

30% is an outside figure that's often bandied about - however, the Thai market Mitsu Lancer EX 1.8L FFV loses ~22% FE on E85, and the 2.4L FFV Captiva loses ~20% FE (both compared to 91 RON benzene).

Either way, for these two vehicles it's a win.

And when gasoline prices raise again in 11 months time, even better for the FFV's.

Volvos S80 2,5FT auto running E85 returns 7km/liter according to Volvo, while my practical experience with this engine in V70 auto is 9-10km/liter 95 RON petrol, so on paper perhaps 11-12km/l

Yep, not a shining example

E85 has ~25% less calorific value than straight gasoline, ~23% less than E10, and ~20% less than E20. But the higher octane of E85 with the correct amount of spark advance and enough compression gives E85 the ability to have a more complete burn, so these numbers don't tell the whole story.

With today's engine tech it's quite feasible to narrow the fuel effeciency gap down to within 11-15%, with the correct implementation/effort.

Hi

Can you explain a little bit more? Could be very interesting to understand what you mean with "correct implementation/effort", and how to do this..

[MoonRiverOasis]

Hi

Can you explain a little bit more? Could be very interesting to understand what you mean with "correct implementation/effort", and how to do this..

Not sure what sort of detail you're after (or even what level I should be discussing this with you on), but I probably wouldn't go that deep here anyway

The key ingredients for maxmimizing power/burn/FE from ethanol are high compression and advanced timing. The challenges are long-term reliablity, production costs, and NVH.

Mazda's new Skyactive-G gasoline engines have a remarkably high 14:1 compression ratio, so they prove at least that high compression with mass production is finally feasible - it's not yet known how they'll fare on NVH though. Gasoline direct injection (necessary to support high compression) has been around for a while, and there's enough sensor and ECU speed now to get timing advance done right - it's all just a matter of putting it all together..

Edited September 18, 2011 by MoonRiverOasis

[HAL9000]

The arrival of E85 in Thailand prompted me to do a research study and experiment with my own personal vehicle. Bob Glicksman of Liquid Sun Energy has graciously hosted the results of my study here:

http://www.liquidsunenergy.com/learning/ppt/Ethanol_Recommendations.pdf

[steelepulse]

A very in depth article. I'd really love to read a layman's cliffes notes version . I wonder how many decent aftermarket ecu tuners there are here in Thailand that would be able to tune for the different fuels?

[wandrinstar]

I recon they are selling Gasohol 95, as 91 Pure, or my sence of smell has gone .My Mrs has just filled her Accord with 91,strange it smells like 95. More than once i hasten to add. Its the same price and TIT..

[HAL9000]

A very in depth article. I'd really love to read a layman's cliffes notes version . I wonder how many decent aftermarket ecu tuners there are here in Thailand that would be able to tune for the different fuels?

Thanks for your comments. The layman's Cliff Notes version would just be section 9, "Satisfactory engine behavior with E85", and section 12, "Field testing the theories".

The earlier sections just analyze whether or not E20 and E85 are safe for your car, which is yes if it is a modern, computerized fuel-injected car built 1983 or later, or to be safe, 1990 and later.

US govt laboratories have certified fuels up to E20 as safe for all engines, and Brazil has certified E25 for all engines.

E85 is a bit more problematic, so section 9 tells you how to test your car with E85. The result will determine whether or not you can use pure E85, or whether you need to dilute it. Any modern car should also be able to run at least 50% E85.

If your car won't run on more than 50% E85 and you would like to make modifications to run pure E85, sections 10 and 11 discuss your options and testing of the installation.

There! I'll be waiting for my royalty payments from Cliff Notes!

Warp Speed on this forum builds race cars. I would imagine this involves ECU tuning, but he doesn't have experience with ethanol tuning. Basically, it involves programming 2 fuel maps, one for gasoline, and the other for ethanol, and then taking feedback from the oxygen sensor to determine the ethanol percentage being run and to interpolate between the two maps. That really only pertains to full acceleration, because when the engine is not under load, the computer automatically adjusts the mixture. That's why non-flex fuel vehicles do alright with E85 if the range of adjustment is adequate.

If interested, search Warp Speed on the forum and drop him a private message to see what he can do for you.

[steelepulse]

Thanks jkolak for the info.

[katabeachbum]

A very in depth article. I'd really love to read a layman's cliffes notes version . I wonder how many decent aftermarket ecu tuners there are here in Thailand that would be able to tune for the different fuels?

Thanks for your comments. The layman's Cliff Notes version would just be section 9, "Satisfactory engine behavior with E85", and section 12, "Field testing the theories".

The earlier sections just analyze whether or not E20 and E85 are safe for your car, which is yes if it is a modern, computerized fuel-injected car built 1983 or later, or to be safe, 1990 and later.

US govt laboratories have certified fuels up to E20 as safe for all engines, and Brazil has certified E25 for all engines.

E85 is a bit more problematic, so section 9 tells you how to test your car with E85. The result will determine whether or not you can use pure E85, or whether you need to dilute it. Any modern car should also be able to run at least 50% E85.

If your car won't run on more than 50% E85 and you would like to make modifications to run pure E85, sections 10 and 11 discuss your options and testing of the installation.

There! I'll be waiting for my royalty payments from Cliff Notes!

Warp Speed on this forum builds race cars. I would imagine this involves ECU tuning, but he doesn't have experience with ethanol tuning. Basically, it involves programming 2 fuel maps, one for gasoline, and the other for ethanol, and then taking feedback from the oxygen sensor to determine the ethanol percentage being run and to interpolate between the two maps. That really only pertains to full acceleration, because when the engine is not under load, the computer automatically adjusts the mixture. That's why non-flex fuel vehicles do alright with E85 if the range of adjustment is adequate.

If interested, search Warp Speed on the forum and drop him a private message to see what he can do for you.

all above is excellent info, but for US/Canada market vehicles only.

Japan spec, as sold in Thailand by most makers, are and was never adapted to accept ethanol AT ALL before 2005, and at that point E10 only. Late 2007 TH market saw the excicetax reduction for E20 compatible cars, and most Japs adapted to E20 within 2008. But not grey market cars not intentended to be sold in Thailand.

Yamaha designed 2,0 4 pot as used in Ford and Volvo is interesting, as it in a new TH Ford is considered E20, but in a new TH Volvo V40 E10. Probably cause the Volvo is made in Malysia, and originally not intended for Thailand. Volvo decided to import it here, when they found TH planned V40 2,5 had been moved to a higher tax bracket

In Thai market all new from manufactorers/main importers can use E10, most E20, very few E85.

[HAL9000]

all above is excellent info, but for US/Canada market vehicles only.

Japan spec, as sold in Thailand by most makers, are and was never adapted to accept ethanol AT ALL before 2005, and at that point E10 only. Late 2007 TH market saw the excicetax reduction for E20 compatible cars, and most Japs adapted to E20 within 2008. But not grey market cars not intentended to be sold in Thailand.

Yamaha designed 2,0 4 pot as used in Ford and Volvo is interesting, as it in a new TH Ford is considered E20, but in a new TH Volvo V40 E10. Probably cause the Volvo is made in Malysia, and originally not intended for Thailand. Volvo decided to import it here, when they found TH planned V40 2,5 had been moved to a higher tax bracket

In Thai market all new from manufactorers/main importers can use E10, most E20, very few E85.

I don't think that is very likely as it doesn't make sense for logistics and warehousing for auto manufacturers to stock two lines of parts, one ethanol resistant, and the other not, especially since using the right rubbers is not more expensive.

What I have observed is that Thailand continued to receive carburetor equipped cars much longer than the rest of the world. That of course is an issue, and is covered by my comment.

I should add that I am also using E20 in my Honda Wave 100 motorbike with no problems, as predicted by the US labs study.

Edited September 20, 2011 by jkolak

[katabeachbum]

all above is excellent info, but for US/Canada market vehicles only.

Japan spec, as sold in Thailand by most makers, are and was never adapted to accept ethanol AT ALL before 2005, and at that point E10 only. Late 2007 TH market saw the excicetax reduction for E20 compatible cars, and most Japs adapted to E20 within 2008. But not grey market cars not intentended to be sold in Thailand.

Yamaha designed 2,0 4 pot as used in Ford and Volvo is interesting, as it in a new TH Ford is considered E20, but in a new TH Volvo V40 E10. Probably cause the Volvo is made in Malysia, and originally not intended for Thailand. Volvo decided to import it here, when they found TH planned V40 2,5 had been moved to a higher tax bracket

In Thai market all new from manufactorers/main importers can use E10, most E20, very few E85.

I don't think that is very likely as it doesn't make sense for logistics and warehousing for auto manufacturers to stock two lines of parts, one ethanol resistant, and the other not, especially since using the right rubbers is not more expensive.

What I have observed is that Thailand continued to receive carburetor equipped cars much longer than the rest of the world. That of course is an issue, and is covered by my comment.

I should add that I am also using E20 in my Honda Wave 100 motorbike with no problems, as predicted by the US labs study.

used to work for a car maker. for one model we had 11 different windshield washer tanks and pumps, pending on which market vehicle was sold to. Every car is manufactored for a specific market and its requirements.

any car maker able to guarantee their product for 3 years/100k km running E85 in TH, would do so immedialtely, as it reduces makers/importers excicetax paid. E85 compatible cars simply has a rebate on excicetax in TH, E20 compatible cars have a smaller rebate, so why on earth would Volvo state their 2,0 is only E10 compatible while Ford states same engine is E20? Due to different parts in fuelsystem

as far as I recall, the list in TH so far is short

Volvo S80 2,5 FT

2011 Mitsu EX 1,8

2012 Captiva 2,4

the rest can simply not handle E85 without premature damage, most can use only one tank before stopping

talking about gasohol damage, by accident I filled up my Honda VTX1800 with E10. Half a tank later parts in fuelsystem had melted and burned to the sparkplugs as a black shiny tar. Japs spec bike, not US spec, year 2004

I too have run my 2005 yammy moped on E10, and still no damage. doesnt indicate it can run E20 or E85

[jamora]

all above is excellent info, but for US/Canada market vehicles only.

Japan spec, as sold in Thailand by most makers, are and was never adapted to accept ethanol AT ALL before 2005, and at that point E10 only. Late 2007 TH market saw the excicetax reduction for E20 compatible cars, and most Japs adapted to E20 within 2008. But not grey market cars not intentended to be sold in Thailand.

Yamaha designed 2,0 4 pot as used in Ford and Volvo is interesting, as it in a new TH Ford is considered E20, but in a new TH Volvo V40 E10. Probably cause the Volvo is made in Malysia, and originally not intended for Thailand. Volvo decided to import it here, when they found TH planned V40 2,5 had been moved to a higher tax bracket

In Thai market all new from manufactorers/main importers can use E10, most E20, very few E85.

I don't think that is very likely as it doesn't make sense for logistics and warehousing for auto manufacturers to stock two lines of parts, one ethanol resistant, and the other not, especially since using the right rubbers is not more expensive.

What I have observed is that Thailand continued to receive carburetor equipped cars much longer than the rest of the world. That of course is an issue, and is covered by my comment.

I should add that I am also using E20 in my Honda Wave 100 motorbike with no problems, as predicted by the US labs study.

used to work for a car maker. for one model we had 11 different windshield washer tanks and pumps, pending on which market vehicle was sold to. Every car is manufactored for a specific market and its requirements.

any car maker able to guarantee their product for 3 years/100k km running E85 in TH, would do so immedialtely, as it reduces makers/importers excicetax paid. E85 compatible cars simply has a rebate on excicetax in TH, E20 compatible cars have a smaller rebate, so why on earth would Volvo state their 2,0 is only E10 compatible while Ford states same engine is E20? Due to different parts in fuelsystem

as far as I recall, the list in TH so far is short

Volvo S80 2,5 FT

2011 Mitsu EX 1,8

2012 Captiva 2,4

the rest can simply not handle E85 without premature damage, most can use only one tank before stopping

talking about gasohol damage, by accident I filled up my Honda VTX1800 with E10. Half a tank later parts in fuelsystem had melted and burned to the sparkplugs as a black shiny tar. Japs spec bike, not US spec, year 2004

I too have run my 2005 yammy moped on E10, and still no damage. doesnt indicate it can run E20 or E85

You can add Volvo C30 1.8F to the list, but I have heard that they are phasing it out do to poor sale figures.

But a lot is happening to E85 technology, read that Swedish Koenigsegg have launched the CCXR supercar, which is one of the first cars that is both more powerful (800 bhp on petrol and 1020 on E85) AND more fuel efficient when running on E85. I know this is not a everyday car, but one can only hope that the rest of the car industry could adopt some of this technology.

[katabeachbum]

all above is excellent info, but for US/Canada market vehicles only.

Japan spec, as sold in Thailand by most makers, are and was never adapted to accept ethanol AT ALL before 2005, and at that point E10 only. Late 2007 TH market saw the excicetax reduction for E20 compatible cars, and most Japs adapted to E20 within 2008. But not grey market cars not intentended to be sold in Thailand.

Yamaha designed 2,0 4 pot as used in Ford and Volvo is interesting, as it in a new TH Ford is considered E20, but in a new TH Volvo V40 E10. Probably cause the Volvo is made in Malysia, and originally not intended for Thailand. Volvo decided to import it here, when they found TH planned V40 2,5 had been moved to a higher tax bracket

In Thai market all new from manufactorers/main importers can use E10, most E20, very few E85.

I don't think that is very likely as it doesn't make sense for logistics and warehousing for auto manufacturers to stock two lines of parts, one ethanol resistant, and the other not, especially since using the right rubbers is not more expensive.

What I have observed is that Thailand continued to receive carburetor equipped cars much longer than the rest of the world. That of course is an issue, and is covered by my comment.

I should add that I am also using E20 in my Honda Wave 100 motorbike with no problems, as predicted by the US labs study.

used to work for a car maker. for one model we had 11 different windshield washer tanks and pumps, pending on which market vehicle was sold to. Every car is manufactored for a specific market and its requirements.

any car maker able to guarantee their product for 3 years/100k km running E85 in TH, would do so immedialtely, as it reduces makers/importers excicetax paid. E85 compatible cars simply has a rebate on excicetax in TH, E20 compatible cars have a smaller rebate, so why on earth would Volvo state their 2,0 is only E10 compatible while Ford states same engine is E20? Due to different parts in fuelsystem

as far as I recall, the list in TH so far is short

Volvo S80 2,5 FT

2011 Mitsu EX 1,8

2012 Captiva 2,4

the rest can simply not handle E85 without premature damage, most can use only one tank before stopping

talking about gasohol damage, by accident I filled up my Honda VTX1800 with E10. Half a tank later parts in fuelsystem had melted and burned to the sparkplugs as a black shiny tar. Japs spec bike, not US spec, year 2004

I too have run my 2005 yammy moped on E10, and still no damage. doesnt indicate it can run E20 or E85

You can add Volvo C30 1.8F to the list, but I have heard that they are phasing it out do to poor sale figures.

But a lot is happening to E85 technology, read that Swedish Koenigsegg have launched the CCXR supercar, which is one of the first cars that is both more powerful (800 bhp on petrol and 1020 on E85) AND more fuel efficient when running on E85. I know this is not a everyday car, but one can only hope that the rest of the car industry could adopt some of this technology.

we can also ad 200 units of Volvo S40F E85 used by Ptt when introducing E85 in TH

Koenigsegg is a very interesting example, as it is one of the very first to be designed from scratch to run E85, and thus does so with brilliance (more power and less consumption). But performs less and use more when running fuels it accepts but is not designed for, like petrol

[HAL9000]

A car that can tolerate standard gasohol E10 can tolerate E85. Ethanol does not become more aggressive with higher concentration. If ethanol is present in any amount, it will attack incompatible rubbers.

[muratremix]

A car that can tolerate standard gasohol E10 can tolerate E85. Ethanol does not become more aggressive with higher concentration. If ethanol is present in any amount, it will attack incompatible rubbers.

A modern ECU will not allow E85 in E20 compatible car. You will get engine error lamb on.

[HAL9000]

A modern ECU will not allow E85 in E20 compatible car. You will get engine error lamb on.

That's not correct. Read the study posted above.

[Gary A]

My 1.8 liter Ford Focus was designed for E20 and it seems to have more power with this fuel. The small difference in KPL is more than made up by the cheaper price. Most gas stations do not have E20 so I have to use 95 gasohol. I do use E20 whenever it is available.

[katabeachbum]

A car that can tolerate standard gasohol E10 can tolerate E85. Ethanol does not become more aggressive with higher concentration. If ethanol is present in any amount, it will attack incompatible rubbers.

absolutely wrong according to car and bike manufactorers, and as they pay for warranty claims, I do believe them

a car compatible with E10 does not need to be compatible with E20 and sure not E85

Ethanol does become more aggressive in higher consentration, according to all car and bike suppliers in Thailand. There is not one supplier who would claim E10 compatible only, and thus pay 5% more excicetax than same vehicle E20 compatible, or 10% more excicetax than same vehicle E85 compatibel.

If you want to teache Thai car makers and suppliers something, go ahead. But please dont try to fool readers to damage their vehicles with higher Ethanol consentration than they are made for. Its gonna cost. A lot.

Not only rubber is attacked from ethanol. Plastics, polys, pumps, seals, carbs, injection parts, you name it. Thailand most sold car Toyota Vios being E85 compatible, would save Toyota approx 10k baht/unit. 300k units a year would be 3 mill baht saved in taxes. If it was E85 compatible, believe me they would state it and save the taxes. And buyers would reduce their fuel bills significantly as E85 cost much less. But at this point they have only reached E20 level, up from E10 level in 2007.

[Gary A]

I have talked to some owners of the newer cars that can use E20. They normally report very poor KPL figures. I believe that is true. For your engine to do well on E20, the engine needs to be designed to benefit from the higher octane ethanol fuel. That mainly means higher compression and the electronics to go with it. When I bought my Ford Focus I wasn't aware of the need for 95 octane fuel. In fact I wasn't happy about that. Emails from Ford stated that I MUST use 95 octane fuel. If your car doesn't require 95 octane fuel, I'd advise you to avoid using E20. It won't hurt the engine but it will use more fuel.

[HAL9000]

absolutely wrong according to car and bike manufactorers, and as they pay for warranty claims, I do believe them

a car compatible with E10 does not need to be compatible with E20 and sure not E85

Ethanol does become more aggressive in higher consentration, according to all car and bike suppliers in Thailand. There is not one supplier who would claim E10 compatible only, and thus pay 5% more excicetax than same vehicle E20 compatible, or 10% more excicetax than same vehicle E85 compatibel.

If you want to teache Thai car makers and suppliers something, go ahead. But please dont try to fool readers to damage their vehicles with higher Ethanol consentration than they are made for. Its gonna cost. A lot.

Not only rubber is attacked from ethanol. Plastics, polys, pumps, seals, carbs, injection parts, you name it. Thailand most sold car Toyota Vios being E85 compatible, would save Toyota approx 10k baht/unit. 300k units a year would be 3 mill baht saved in taxes. If it was E85 compatible, believe me they would state it and save the taxes. And buyers would reduce their fuel bills significantly as E85 cost much less. But at this point they have only reached E20 level, up from E10 level in 2007.

No, that's not correct. You are not understanding the chemistry involved here, and citing excise tax as the only motivation behind car makers decisions is a logical fallacy.

[HAL9000]

I have talked to some owners of the newer cars that can use E20. They normally report very poor KPL figures. I believe that is true. For your engine to do well on E20, the engine needs to be designed to benefit from the higher octane ethanol fuel. That mainly means higher compression and the electronics to go with it. When I bought my Ford Focus I wasn't aware of the need for 95 octane fuel. In fact I wasn't happy about that. Emails from Ford stated that I MUST use 95 octane fuel. If your car doesn't require 95 octane fuel, I'd advise you to avoid using E20. It won't hurt the engine but it will use more fuel.

Read the document I posted. It cites a Toyota/Ford study in which some vehicles exhibited higher fuel economy with E20. E20 performs in your car nearly the same as gasoline. E85 will show a reduction in fuel economy.

[MoonRiverOasis]

No, that's not correct. You are not understanding the chemistry involved here, and citing excise tax as the only motivation behind car makers decisions is a logical fallacy.

Well, it's defintely pushed them before - no Thai manufacturer implemented E10 support until there was an excise tax benefit to be had.

Even if you look at a base J spec VIOS 4AT with ABS which sells for 564,000 - if it were E20 compatible that price would drop to 526,000 - or - Toyota could increase their wholesale price on the car by a full 27,500 Baht. The latter option equates to an extra 7% profit - or roughly double the total profit margin a company like Toyota actually make - so for them a 2x profit increase...

There's simply no way they wouldn't declare the car as being E20 compatible if it was able to be achieved without a substantial additional production or warranty service cost. So the way I see it, the whole argument that it costs the same to manufacture and warranty an E10 car as it does an E20 one is proven a fallacy by simple economics alone.

Edited September 21, 2011 by MoonRiverOasis

[HAL9000]

Well, it's defintely pushed them before - no Thai manufacturer implemented E10 support until there was an excise tax benefit to be had.

Even if you look at a base J spec VIOS 4AT with ABS which sells for 564,000 - if it were E20 compatible that price would drop to 526,000 - or - Toyota could increase their wholesale price on the car by a full 27,500 Baht. The latter option equates to an extra 7% profit - or roughly double the total profit margin a company like Toyota actually make - so for them a 2x profit increase...

There's simply no way they wouldn't declare the car as being E20 compatible if it was able to be achieved without a substantial additional production or warranty service cost. So the way I see it, the whole argument that it costs the same to manufacture and warranty an E10 car as it does an E20 one is proven a fallacy by simple economics alone.

Look at the link to the Ohio Bio Systems study in my study. They did an analysis of part numbers between FFVs and non-FFVs. Sometimes there is no difference at all in part numbers, and other times the difference is 3 to 4% max.

[MoonRiverOasis]

Look at the link to the Ohio Bio Systems study in my study. They did an analysis of part numbers between FFVs and non-FFVs. Sometimes there is no difference at all in part numbers, and other times the difference is 3 to 4% max.

I don't need to... This is Thailand, with Thai parts suppliers and Thai taxes - the proof is in the numbers

Edited September 21, 2011 by MoonRiverOasis

[katabeachbum]

Well, it's defintely pushed them before - no Thai manufacturer implemented E10 support until there was an excise tax benefit to be had.

Even if you look at a base J spec VIOS 4AT with ABS which sells for 564,000 - if it were E20 compatible that price would drop to 526,000 - or - Toyota could increase their wholesale price on the car by a full 27,500 Baht. The latter option equates to an extra 7% profit - or roughly double the total profit margin a company like Toyota actually make - so for them a 2x profit increase...

There's simply no way they wouldn't declare the car as being E20 compatible if it was able to be achieved without a substantial additional production or warranty service cost. So the way I see it, the whole argument that it costs the same to manufacture and warranty an E10 car as it does an E20 one is proven a fallacy by simple economics alone.

Look at the link to the Ohio Bio Systems study in my study. They did an analysis of part numbers between FFVs and non-FFVs. Sometimes there is no difference at all in part numbers, and other times the difference is 3 to 4% max.

You are still comparing US/Canada market vehicles, made from US/Canada/Mexico parts supplies. The rest of the worlds car makers, and thus parts suppliers, do not make the same cars/parts, even if they carry the same badge and look identical.

I used to import Canadian manufactored Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth to Europe. Even a simple part as a 15 inch Voyager/Grand Caravan steel rim, with same part number in Europe and US/Canada, is not identical. The European rim is made in Polen, the US/Canadian in Canada, same partnumber in all markets, not identical product. The Austrian made Chrysler Grand Voyager and the Canadian siblings, made 90% from the same partnumbers, basicly have very few parts in common, as the Austrian is supplied by European suppliers, and the US by US/Canadian/Mexican suppliers

[katabeachbum]

I have talked to some owners of the newer cars that can use E20. They normally report very poor KPL figures. I believe that is true. For your engine to do well on E20, the engine needs to be designed to benefit from the higher octane ethanol fuel. That mainly means higher compression and the electronics to go with it. When I bought my Ford Focus I wasn't aware of the need for 95 octane fuel. In fact I wasn't happy about that. Emails from Ford stated that I MUST use 95 octane fuel. If your car doesn't require 95 octane fuel, I'd advise you to avoid using E20. It won't hurt the engine but it will use more fuel.

Read the document I posted. It cites a Toyota/Ford study in which some vehicles exhibited higher fuel economy with E20. E20 performs in your car nearly the same as gasoline. E85 will show a reduction in fuel economy.

Wrong again, as you again is comparing US spec vehicles.

Thai spec vehicles in general require 91 RON and consumes approx 6% more running E20 over E10. Running E85 you need a garage asap

[HAL9000]

Wrong again, as you again is comparing US spec vehicles.

Thai spec vehicles in general require 91 RON and consumes approx 6% more running E20 over E10. Running E85 you need a garage asap

Running E85 in 1998 Hyundai Accent with no problems.

[katabeachbum]

Wrong again, as you again is comparing US spec vehicles.

Thai spec vehicles in general require 91 RON and consumes approx 6% more running E20 over E10. Running E85 you need a garage asap

Running E85 in 1998 Hyundai Accent with no problems.

Hyundai Accent is Korean, not japs/thai, and probably manufactored all to US spec as that was their largest market in 1998, which is often ethanol compatible

and believe me, if todays Huyndais sold in TH where E85 compatible for 100k km/3 years, Huyndai TH woud immediately inform revenue to reduce excicetax paid, and inform car buyers to increase sales. But they are not

[stjp8729]

Look at the link to the Ohio Bio Systems study in my study. They did an analysis of part numbers between FFVs and non-FFVs. Sometimes there is no difference at all in part numbers, and other times the difference is 3 to 4% max.

Nice that some have make analysis by part number But if you want fact read below:

Different parts for a E85 with 5-cyl car sold in Thailand.

- ECM Software (calaculate etanol % and adapt amount of fuel, ingnition, and also treasure values depends on % etanol for MIL-On)

- Intake / Exhaust valves (harder, normal used for gas car, due to less lubrication when drive on E85)

- Valve seat (See above)

- Injectors (larger capacitet)

- Fuel lines different material due to E85 more aggresive. (cost more, therfore not applied on all cars)

- Seals in fuelsystem (rubber, teflon).

- Changed service interval (20 000 to 10 000 Km due to water content in etanol, which can case engine sludge "water in oil")

Queit strange that a hobby guy knows more than people worked at Powertrain R&D and car manufactures who spend hugh amount of money to secure quality and legal demands with testing in there tests and development.

Have a nice day!

[MoonRiverOasis]

Look at the link to the Ohio Bio Systems study in my study. They did an analysis of part numbers between FFVs and non-FFVs. Sometimes there is no difference at all in part numbers, and other times the difference is 3 to 4% max.

Nice that some have make analysis by part number But if you want fact read below:

Different parts for a E85 with 5-cyl car sold in Thailand.

- ECM Software (calaculate etanol % and adapt amount of fuel, ingnition, and also treasure values depends on % etanol for MIL-On)

- Intake / Exhaust valves (harder, normal used for gas car, due to less lubrication when drive on E85)

- Valve seat (See above)

- Injectors (larger capacitet)

- Fuel lines different material due to E85 more aggresive. (cost more, therfore not applied on all cars)

- Seals in fuelsystem (rubber, teflon).

- Changed service interval (20 000 to 10 000 Km due to water content in etanol, which can case engine sludge "water in oil")

Queit strange that a hobby guy knows more than people worked at Powertrain R&D and car manufactures who spend hugh amount of money to secure quality and legal demands with testing in there tests and development.

Have a nice day!

Note.. Search on Brazil and engine fires, at 22% etanol is as most aggresive.

You're misquoting - I didn't say that

3rd time lucky?