samran Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) The government of Thailand was no more corrupt than the government of South Korea well into the 90's, don't forget. The difference is that Korea was already planning and laying down the foundation for a democratic country in the late 1980's while it was shifting from a military dictatorship. They managed to control corruption in civil service in the early 90's which greatly benefited the growing middle class. Corruption is a cancer and I fear a lot of the root causes for it in Thailand are cultural. You are conveniently ignoring the fact that corruption on a day to day level in Thailand has reduced dramatically since the 1970's. It is possible to go about your daily life, run businesses and access government services without ever having to pay a baht in tea money. As for corruption in Korea being better than in Thailand, funny you mention it, an FT article I came across a while back has has its own president talking about the extent of it. http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a571cf18-95cf-11e0-8f82-00144feab49a.html#axzz1aONdAeHf I'll give you this though, at least he is talking about it. Edited October 10, 2011 by samran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermute Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) And Thailand's transformation has been a miracle when you compare it to Laos, Cambodia, and Burma -- who were all more or less at the same level of development 40 years ago. So? You're comparing Thailand to 3 countries who went through nearly 5 decades of internecine civil wars and wars involving colonial powers. Are you serious? Really..? This belief that Thailand avoided all of this by the good graces of being "better" and not just incredibly lucky is one of the most fabricated pieces of cultural dogma to come out of the country. Edited October 10, 2011 by wintermute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermute Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) You are conveniently ignoring the fact that corruption on a day to day level in Thailand has reduced dramatically since the 1970's. It is possible to go about your daily life, run businesses and access government services without ever having to pay a baht in tea money. As for corruption in Korea being better than in Thailand, funny you mention it, an FT article I came across a while back has has its own president talking about the extent of it. http://www.ft.com/in...l#axzz1aONdAeHf I'll give you this though, at least he is talking about it. You do this a lot in every argument i've seen you reply to. You like to point out all countries have some amount of corruption so therefore Thailand's corruption isn't that bad. It's really a rather obvious way to sidestep the issue because what does matter is the amount of corruption, how badly the government is compromised, and how it obstructs development. Compared with Korea, Thailand is indeed far worse. Every index i've seen measuring corruption in varying countries seems to agree with this as well. Edited October 10, 2011 by wintermute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard4849 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 And Thailand's transformation has been a miracle when you compare it to Laos, Cambodia, and Burma -- who were all more or less at the same level of development 40 years ago. So? You're comparing Thailand to 3 countries who went through nearly 5 decades of internecine civil wars and wars involving colonial powers. Are you serious? Really..? This belief that Thailand avoided all of this by the good graces of being "better" and not just incredibly lucky is one of the most fabricated pieces of cultural dogma to come out of the country. Not ignoring it -- every country has different circumstances. Thais feel quite good about their place in the world, with good reason. No one starves to death here, education and health care are free, literacy rates are low, and people are happy. They are surrounded by neighbors who don't have it nearly as well off -- even Malaysia is off the flakiness scale. Not everyone can be at the top of the class, but people can at least be happy to be who they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 The root of the Asian financial crisis wasn't Korea it was Thailand. As is stands Korea recovered much faster than most other asian economies and flourished. It is too late in the evening where I am to pick apart the rest of your argument, which really makes no sense. But I'll take this one statement to show as an example how far off you are. Thailand wasn't the 'root' of the Asian financial crisis. It was simply the first domino to fall. It could have easily been Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia or the Philippines, it just so happened that Thailand ran out of foreign reserves first. Thailand was doing exactly the same thing as all the other guys...including Korea. I'll agree with the broader concept that Thailand needs to expand its economic base to help it better weather future economic shocks. How it does it I am not so prescriptive about, rather, I'd prefer that the policy settings were put in place to encourage it, and let the rest happen from there. I'm no fan of picking winners which Korea did. It just doesn't work in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) You are conveniently ignoring the fact that corruption on a day to day level in Thailand has reduced dramatically since the 1970's. It is possible to go about your daily life, run businesses and access government services without ever having to pay a baht in tea money. As for corruption in Korea being better than in Thailand, funny you mention it, an FT article I came across a while back has has its own president talking about the extent of it. http://www.ft.com/in...l#axzz1aONdAeHf I'll give you this though, at least he is talking about it. You do this a lot in every argument i've seen you reply to. You like to point out all countries have some amount of corruption so therefore Thailand's corruption isn't that bad. It's really a rather obvious way to sidestep the issue because what does matter is the amount of corruption, how badly the government is compromised, and how it obstructs development. Compared with Korea, Thailand is indeed far worse. Every index i've seen measuring corruption in varying countries seems to agree with this as well. I have never said Thai corruption isn't that bad. Above a certain level it is and I wouldn't pretend otherwise (so please stop reading into what I might be saying and read what I am saying). But the link put there to show Korea has it too, and it can be pretty bad there. No use in putting rose coloured spectacles on for that one. What I am saying though is that at a day to day level, Thailand has come great lengths from the 1970's. As said, just about any government interaction for an average citizen can and is done on the level. Edited October 10, 2011 by samran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermute Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) It is too late in the evening where I am to pick apart the rest of your argument, which really makes no sense. But I'll take this one statement to show as an example how far off you are. Sure. ... Thailand wasn't the 'root' of the Asian financial crisis. It was simply the first domino to fall. It could have easily been Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia or the Philippines, it just so happened that Thailand ran out of foreign reserves first. If you have read current economic research into this you'll learn that Thailand's speculative borrowing and investing was much more serious than even its neighbors. The government cover ups and mismanagement was even worse. You're right that SE Asia in general was pretty bad about this but in Thailand it was practically an institution. The elite were using banks as their personal wallet and pilfering off the land development cash. Then the government was subsidizing losses with Thai tax funds. It was absolutely foul. The only other country I can think of that was in fact worse about this, albeit for different reasons due to political reasons, was Indonesia. Thailand was doing exactly the same thing as all the other guys...including Korea. Not to nearly the same level of profligacy with corrupt officials and tycoons working hand in hand to loot the system. The reason why it effected NE Asia at all was because of the amount of regional securities investment in SE Asia. China, for instance, was barely affected by it. Edited October 10, 2011 by wintermute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 It is too late in the evening where I am to pick apart the rest of your argument, which really makes no sense. But I'll take this one statement to show as an example how far off you are. Sure. ... Thailand wasn't the 'root' of the Asian financial crisis. It was simply the first domino to fall. It could have easily been Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia or the Philippines, it just so happened that Thailand ran out of foreign reserves first. If you have read current economic research into this you'll learn that Thailand's speculative borrowing and investing was much more serious than even its neighbors. The government cover ups and mismanagement was even worse. You're right that SE Asia in general was pretty bad about this but in Thailand it was practically an institution. The elite were using banks as their personal wallet and pilfering off the land development cash. Then the government was subsidizing losses with Thai tax funds. It was absolutely foul. The only other country I can think of that was in fact worse about this, albeit for different reasons due to political reasons, was Indonesia. Now you are just being condescending. 'if you have read current economic research into this....' lar di dar. A decade ago I would have been able to give you 10 pages in calculus outlining what went on. And they were all as bad as each other. Just a matter of degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermute Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Now you are just being condescending. I'm not, if there are sources available that give more information I will certainly point out that they exist. That's not being condescending at all. On the other hand i've been reading your posts for awhile on this forum and you always come across as oversensitive and dogmatic whenever anything Thai is mentioned in even a slightly negative light. There's plenty of rubbish and trolling on this forum but it seems like you have a problem with _any_ objective criticism. That's a very Thai cultural characteristic to be honest. To me that's just a marker for insecurity and usually when someone is that insecure it means they know what the reality is deep down and wish to repress the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marstons Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 yet to meet a Thai who knows anything about WW 2 and the japanese occupation of Thailand or which country Budda was born in or anything about his up bringing. 100,000 of South East Asians killed on the railway and none of them know a thing about it. So i think that will be a no on things outside Thailand. why farang not come no more?, erm you know world economic crash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaruHaru Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) The Thais are also a LOT happier than the Koreans, who have one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Bhutanese are a LOT happier than Thais and Japanese also have one of the highest suicide rates in the world but that wouldn't change real world. 2010 UN Human Development Index Human Development Index (HDI) - 2010 Rankings Very High Human Development Norway Australia New Zealand United States Ireland Liechtenstein Netherlands Canada Sweden Germany Japan Korea (Republic of) Switzerland France Israel Finland Iceland Belgium Denmark Spain Hong Kong, China (SAR) Greece Italy Luxembourg Austria United Kingdom Singapore Czech Republic Slovenia Andorra Slovakia United Arab Emirates Malta Estonia Cyprus Hungary Brunei Darussalam Qatar Bahrain Portugal Poland Barbados High Human Development Bahamas Lithuania Chile Argentina Kuwait Latvia Montenegro Romania Croatia Uruguay Cuba* Palau* Libya Panama Saudi Arabia Mexico Malaysia Bulgaria Trinidad and Tobago Serbia Belarus Costa Rica Peru Albania Russian Federation Kazakhstan Azerbaijan Bosnia and Herzegovina Ukraine Iran (Islamic Republic of) The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia Mauritius Brazil Georgia Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of) Armenia Ecuador Belize Colombia Jamaica Tunisia Jordan Turkey Algeria Tonga Medium Human Development Fiji Turkmenistan Dominican Republic China El Salvador Sri Lanka Thailand Gabon Suriname Occupied Palestinian Territory* Bolivia (Plurinational State of) Paraguay Philippines Botswana Moldova (Republic of) Mongolia Egypt Uzbekistan Micronesia (Federated States of) Guyana Namibia Honduras Maldives Indonesia Kyrgyzstan South Africa Syrian Arab Republic Tajikistan Viet Nam Morocco Nicaragua Guatemala Equatorial Guinea Cape Verde India Timor-Leste Swaziland Lao People's Democratic Republic Solomon Islands Cambodia Pakistan Congo São Tomé and Príncipe Low Human Development Kenya Bangladesh Ghana Cameroon Myanmar Yemen Benin Madagascar Mauritania Papua New Guinea Nepal Togo Comoros Lesotho Nigeria Uganda Senegal Haiti Angola Djibouti Tanzania (United Republic of) Côte d'Ivoire Zambia Gambia Rwanda Malawi Sudan Afghanistan Guinea Ethiopia Sierra Leone Central African Republic Mali Burkina Faso Liberia Chad Guinea-Bissau Mozambique Burundi Niger Congo (Democratic Republic of the) Zimbabwe Edited October 10, 2011 by HaruHaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard4849 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 So? Doubtful any of us would be here if it were any different. I don't see a huge exodus of Thailand expats for the warm shores of Korea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mca Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 So? Doubtful any of us would be here if it were any different. I don't see a huge exodus of Thailand expats for the warm shores of Korea. Unless Girls Generation did a " Naked Oil Rubdown For Lardy Bald Westerners With A Drinking Problem " promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermute Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 So? Doubtful any of us would be here if it were any different. I don't see a huge exodus of Thailand expats for the warm shores of Korea. Let's be honest here there are other reasons why foreign expats prefer Thailand to Korea and it has nothing to do with culture or economics. If those particular reasons were strictly outlawed I would bet cold hard cash the tourist figures would drop by at least three quarters overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard4849 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 So? Doubtful any of us would be here if it were any different. I don't see a huge exodus of Thailand expats for the warm shores of Korea. Let's be honest here there are other reasons why foreign expats prefer Thailand to Korea and it has nothing to do with culture or economics. If those particular reasons were strictly outlawed I would bet cold hard cash the tourist figures would drop by at least three quarters overnight. There's just as much of that particular vice in Korea, albeit more expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermute Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 So? Doubtful any of us would be here if it were any different. I don't see a huge exodus of Thailand expats for the warm shores of Korea. Let's be honest here there are other reasons why foreign expats prefer Thailand to Korea and it has nothing to do with culture or economics. If those particular reasons were strictly outlawed I would bet cold hard cash the tourist figures would drop by at least three quarters overnight. There's just as much of that particular vice in Korea, albeit more expensive. It's far more prevalent in Thailand. Most of the hookers in Korea aren't even Korean. They are from SE Asia anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard4849 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 So? Doubtful any of us would be here if it were any different. I don't see a huge exodus of Thailand expats for the warm shores of Korea. Let's be honest here there are other reasons why foreign expats prefer Thailand to Korea and it has nothing to do with culture or economics. If those particular reasons were strictly outlawed I would bet cold hard cash the tourist figures would drop by at least three quarters overnight. There's just as much of that particular vice in Korea, albeit more expensive. It's far more prevalent in Thailand. Most of the hookers in Korea aren't even Korean. They are from SE Asia anyways. Not last time I was there. In any case, Korea is not a particularly happy place -- and much less accepting of outsiders than Thailand is. There are lots of reasons other than prostitution why Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermute Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Not last time I was there. In any case, Korea is not a particularly happy place -- and much less accepting of outsiders than Thailand is. There are lots of reasons other than prostitution why Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. You are basing this on what criteria precisely? Have you polled all the citizens there to determine their happiness or are you basing this on some index? Most of the happiness indices are based on other things besides emotional "happiness" and are nonsense. What are these "lots of other reasons?" that Thailand has that neighboring SE Asian countries such as Vietnam or Laos don't have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludditeman Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 There are lots of reasons other than prostitution why Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. I think not. Men might come here to visit, they stay for the hookers. Self delusion is a wonderful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreetCowboy Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 There are lots of reasons other than prostitution why Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. I think not. Men might come here to visit, they stay for the hookers. Self delusion is a wonderful thing. I don't think my wife and kids stay for the hookers. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmine Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 So? Doubtful any of us would be here if it were any different. I don't see a huge exodus of Thailand expats for the warm shores of Korea. Let's be honest here there are other reasons why foreign expats prefer Thailand to Korea and it has nothing to do with culture or economics. If those particular reasons were strictly outlawed I would bet cold hard cash the tourist figures would drop by at least three quarters overnight. I'm not sure about dropping by three quarters but it would definately be a big drop. I wonder if anyones going to try and disagree with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmine Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 There are lots of reasons other than prostitution why Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. I think not. Men might come here to visit, they stay for the hookers. Self delusion is a wonderful thing. I don't think my wife and kids stay for the hookers. SC Did anyone suggest they do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreetCowboy Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 There are lots of reasons other than prostitution why Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. I think not. ... I don't think my wife and kids stay for the hookers. SC Did anyone suggest they do? Ludditeman suggested that there were not lots of reasons other than prostitution that Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. In the case of my family, it is for the school. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludditeman Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) There are lots of reasons other than prostitution why Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. I think not. Men might come here to visit, they stay for the hookers. Self delusion is a wonderful thing. @SC It's against forum rules to quote a post where you have changed the meaning. MEN is quite clearly in my original post, I assume your wife and children are not MEN Edited October 11, 2011 by ludditeman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onionluke Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Not last time I was there. In any case, Korea is not a particularly happy place -- and much less accepting of outsiders than Thailand is. There are lots of reasons other than prostitution why Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. You are basing this on what criteria precisely? Have you polled all the citizens there to determine their happiness or are you basing this on some index? Most of the happiness indices are based on other things besides emotional "happiness" and are nonsense. What are these "lots of other reasons?" that Thailand has that neighboring SE Asian countries such as Vietnam or Laos don't have? An old Korean girlfriend and I , mid twenties at the time, experienced a real close call in Seoul where a group of lads started abusing her verbally for being with a forienger , they were getting ready for violence and we had to flee the scene . I was realy shiting it at the time as there were about a dozen or so of them . OK that was only one incident but I did get spooked by the Korean lads from time to time whilst there . Korea and Thailand are chalk and cheese . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreetCowboy Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 There are lots of reasons other than prostitution why Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. I think not. Men might come here to visit, they stay for the hookers. Self delusion is a wonderful thing. @SC It's against forum rules to quote a post where you have changed the meaning. MEN is quite clearly in my original post, I assume your wife and children are not MEN Sorry, I thought you were contradicting on behalf of all tourists and expats when you contradicted Richard. Perhaps you should have said "I think not, in some cases", or "Not for men, that's not the case" - or perhaps spoken only from your own experience "Not in my case" Maybe I should have expanded to highlight that not all tourists and expats are men. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard4849 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Not last time I was there. In any case, Korea is not a particularly happy place -- and much less accepting of outsiders than Thailand is. There are lots of reasons other than prostitution why Thailand is so popular with tourists and expats. You are basing this on what criteria precisely? Have you polled all the citizens there to determine their happiness or are you basing this on some index? Most of the happiness indices are based on other things besides emotional "happiness" and are nonsense. What are these "lots of other reasons?" that Thailand has that neighboring SE Asian countries such as Vietnam or Laos don't have? Just my opinion based on life experience. You are more than welcome to disagree, and even to move to Seoul if you think you would be happier there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermute Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) Just my opinion based on life experience. You are more than welcome to disagree, and even to move to Seoul if you think you would be happier there. LoL, this is the typical "If you don't like it farang, get out my country" type of passive aggressive reaction I was getting ready for. :jap: How utterly predictable. Edited October 11, 2011 by wintermute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard4849 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I guess that's a disagreement? If you think somewhere is better, why aren't you there? I think it's a valid question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreetCowboy Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I guess that's a disagreement? If you think somewhere is better, why aren't you there? I think it's a valid question. "If I was going to choose my job based on where I wanted to live, I'd not be sat here having lunch with you chaps" as I said fifteen years ago, before I left England. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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