DSI Urges Police To Provide Forensic Proof On Red-Shirt Protest Victims

[nicknostitz]

For anyone who was actually on the streets last year, and i mean really on the streets while the events were kicking off.

Whether the army fired on the camera men by mistake or not

It was a full on war after 8pm

It was chaos and even the reds were not wearing red uniforms so they could attack the army without being fired on first.

It was a dirty fight - and no matter how many died in the process.

The reds could have avoided it all if they did not barricade the business sector with sharpened bamboo and bring in weapons.

In any WAR (which is what the reds declared)

there will be innocent casualties and mistakes due to fatigue, confusion or fear.

Trying to cast the blame on the army or the reds...

Sorry but for someone who was witness to the whole thing, as i was living directly opposite the red camp.

I have no dellussions as to what really went on - peaceful protest in the name of democracy was certainly absolute lies.

Only at the end the reds did not wear red T-shirts anymore, as many Reds were arrested while leaving or attempting to enter the camp for violations against the emergency decree, and summarily sentenced to 6 months and 1 year sentences. Many were also attacked by supporters of the government outside the camp.

During the April 10 clashes at Democracy Monument the Red Shirt protesters still wore red.

As to the situation - yes, it looked like a war. Declared? Not exactly. The April 10 clashes began by a dispersal action of the military whose decisive action began one and a half hours before darkness, against all usual procedures.

The final 6 days began with a crackdown that the military started with the assassination of Sae Daeng. The frst dead Red Shirt in May was a protester (wearing a red T-Shirt) armed with a video camera, and was shot by the military about 20 meters away from me.

Red Shirt militants shot at soldiers. Soldiers shot at anyone, including journalists and unarmed protesters.

One thing i do agree though - the permanent occupation of Rajaprasong was in my opinion a huge mistake of the Red Shirts, and should never have been done.

[rubl]

Another possibility is the man in black shooting from behind. Also at first the mass of protesters was pushing forward, not easy to turn and run. I guess it's a bit too late to determine for most deaths where exactly it occurred and how that relates to the position of others. Unfortunately that means we'll see a lot more speculation.

You are grasping for straws, "dear rubl".

There is a lot of evidence available of the April 10 incident, such as the massive amount of bullet holes in street signs, phone boxes and other fixed structures coming from the direction of the military - many of them also head high. There is much smaller amount of bullets holes from the side of the Red Shirts on Kor Hua, and all the bullet holes i could see at Dinso were from the side of the military (the DSI said that they have found a few holes from the the side of the Red Shirts, but said that the vast majority came from the side of the military).

There are videos available showing soldiers firing deliberately in the direction of the protesters on April 10 - their rifles point head high, none of the attachments necessary for firing blanks. These videos were shot from the side of the soldiers.

There is more forensic evidence which will hopefully now published, after Tharit has now apparently retracted his previous statements on the killing of Hiro.

You can be sure, that sooner or later much of what happened that day will be made available to the public.

Not clutching at straws, just a bit of speculation. Anyway you seem to confirm the Robert A. report with the army firing thousands of rounds into the mass of protesters. So clearly all deaths by bullets that evening are on their account, all 16 of them. Mind you, my mother could probably shoot straighter than those soldiers. I still maintain that without the grenades and without the man in black there might not have been a single death.

Most of the truth will come out eventually.

No, i neither confirm nor contest Amsterdam's report, presently. I do my own investigations. And honestly what you maintain or speculate here will play no role whatsoever as the closest you have been to this incident is conversing with me on this forum here.

Thousands of rounds were possibly fired into the protesters by the soldiers, not all of them though head high, as we have seen with the many bullet holes high up in the Democracy monument, and other fixtures on the streets. Many though were shot towards the protesters.

I will refrain from commenting on your mother.

The closest I got to this particular war on April 10th 2010 was from Khet Dusit where I live. With office in U Chu Liang, RamaIV I walked almost daily to/from BTS Saladaeng. I 'missed' the April 22nd attack by a few hours. I've seen the bamboo wall, armed police/army, pink shirts gathering below BTS station. Unless some I didn't feel the need to runaround with the pack.

I don't post for my comments to have a role. If my comments or speculations have no meaning what so ever, I'm afraid that goes for about 99% of the posters here. Should we refrain from posting and leave it to the all wise, like you?

Thanks for not commenting on my mother. I shouldn't have dragged her into this discussion, at 83 she doesn't need that.

[rubl]

...

As to the situation - yes, it looked like a war. Declared? Not exactly. The April 10 clashes began by a dispersal action of the military whose decisive action began one and a half hours before darkness, against all usual procedures.

...

Against all usual procedure. That explains it. The protesters were in their right to shoot and fight back. It was very unfair of the Thai army to start dispersing the protesters at the wrong time. not cricket for sure

[Buchholz]

For anyone who was actually on the streets last year, and i mean really on the streets while the events were kicking off.

Whether the army fired on the camera men by mistake or not

It was a full on war after 8pm

It was chaos and even the reds were not wearing red uniforms so they could attack the army without being fired on first.

It was a dirty fight - and no matter how many died in the process.

The reds could have avoided it all if they did not barricade the business sector with sharpened bamboo and bring in weapons.

In any WAR (which is what the reds declared)

there will be innocent casualties and mistakes due to fatigue, confusion or fear.

Trying to cast the blame on the army or the reds...

Sorry but for someone who was witness to the whole thing, as i was living directly opposite the red camp.

I have no dellussions as to what really went on - peaceful protest in the name of democracy was certainly absolute lies.

As to the situation - yes, it looked like a war. Declared? Not exactly.

Red-shirts Declare War against Government

Breaking News

UPDATE : 7 April 2010

The red-shirt group has declared war against the government after a state of emergency was announced. It encouraged supporters nationwide to lay siege to provincial town halls.

http://www.tannetwork.tv/tan/ViewData.aspx?DataID=1027525

.

[pastitche]

Seh Deng was killed by water melon soldiers or tomato cops, a right wing fascist got out of control after the raid on the hospital. Dangerous for the "Reds" and their international reputation. One of the conspiracy theories, plausibility very high.

Plausibility miniscule to nil.

The trajectory of the bullet that killed him points clearly to the upper floors of a building that was under complete control of the military forces, and not of an empty building that rogue soldiers could have accessed.

There is an advantage in attending public hearings in which forensic evidence is presented by investigators to the public ...

Wonder if the survivors reminisced over the good times with their fallen comrade when they reunited today.

.

Any source for the photo Buchholz, or just trolling?

A 2-year old irrevelant photograph on a serious subject? You are letting yourself down

[phiphidon]

As to the situation - yes, it looked like a war. Declared? Not exactly.

Red-shirts Declare War against Government

Breaking News

UPDATE : 7 April 2010

The red-shirt group has declared war against the government after a state of emergency was announced. It encouraged supporters nationwide to lay siege to provincial town halls.

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1027525

.

Wow, that's convincing, a declaration of war on behalf of the Red Shirts made by TAN. Do you have any idea Buchholz or do you just google and grab the first thing that "apparently" suits your "argument"?

[rubl]

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1027525

(link from buchholz)

Wow, that's convincing, a declaration of war on behalf of the Red Shirts made by TAN. Do you have any idea Buchholz or do you just google and grab the first thing that "apparently" suits your "argument"?

2010-03-18

"Thai Red Shirts declare 'class war'"

TANNET 2010-04-07 pure co-incidence, but only 3 days later the man-in-black created havoc and 'someone' lobbed grenades on an army colonel and staff.

And things really got going when the government got serious on removing the protesters.

2010-05-15

"Thailand's Red Shirts ready to 'wage war' against government"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/20/thailand-red-shirts-wage-war

AS I said before, if on the 10th of April 2010 no grenades had been lobbed, no man-in-black mysteriously had appeared and helped the protesters, would we have seen any deaths? Would we?

Edited September 18, 2011 by rubl

[hanuman1]

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1027525

(link from buchholz)

Wow, that's convincing, a declaration of war on behalf of the Red Shirts made by TAN. Do you have any idea Buchholz or do you just google and grab the first thing that "apparently" suits your "argument"?

2010-03-18

"Thai Red Shirts declare 'class war'"

TANNET 2010-04-07 pure co-incidence, but only 3 days later the man-in-black created havoc and 'someone' lobbed grenades on an army colonel and staff.

And things really got going when the government got serious on removing the protesters.

2010-05-15

"Thailand's Red Shirts ready to 'wage war' against government"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/20/thailand-red-shirts-wage-war

AS I said before, if on the 10th of April 2010 no grenades had been lobbed, no man-in-black mysteriously had appeared and helped the protesters, would we have seen any deaths? Would we?

Whilst I find it as odd as many other posters as to why Nattawut could declare a war on behalf of all red shirts and now be an MP having been (and continuing to be) processed through the Thai legal system for his actions at that time, I do accept it. Because this is not my country and they do things differently here.

As far as I can tell, the 'declaration of war' by one member of a rather large group of 'leaders' at the time - some of whom (like Veera) obviously didn't share his feelings - clearly doesn't seem to be the treacherous act - with its associated penalties - that we consider it to be in our own countries. Otherwise he surely wouldn't be in the position he is in now.

And if it is the Thai judicial system that is at fault for allowing him to now be an MP whilst waiting for pending cases to go to court, maybe that system is as much to blame for his position of power now as he is. People come and go. Systems are what need changing in this country.

Edited September 18, 2011 by hanuman1

[Buchholz]

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1027525

(link from buchholz)

Wow, that's convincing, a declaration of war on behalf of the Red Shirts made by TAN. Do you have any idea Buchholz or do you just google and grab the first thing that "apparently" suits your "argument"?

2010-03-18

"Thai Red Shirts declare 'class war'"

TANNET 2010-04-07 pure co-incidence, but only 3 days later the man-in-black created havoc and 'someone' lobbed grenades on an army colonel and staff.

And things really got going when the government got serious on removing the protesters.

2010-05-15

"Thailand's Red Shirts ready to 'wage war' against government"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/20/thailand-red-shirts-wage-war

AS I said before, if on the 10th of April 2010 no grenades had been lobbed, no man-in-black mysteriously had appeared and helped the protesters, would we have seen any deaths? Would we?

Don't waste your time, rubl.

The type with apparently no memory or just uninformed or are just trolling are hardly worth the effort.

They'll come up with every excuse they can in defense of their Reds whether it's the news source or that it wasn't a signed declaration by every member in the Red gang or... or....

.

.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Buchholz

[rubl]

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1027525

(link from buchholz)

Wow, that's convincing, a declaration of war on behalf of the Red Shirts made by TAN. Do you have any idea Buchholz or do you just google and grab the first thing that "apparently" suits your "argument"?

2010-03-18

"Thai Red Shirts declare 'class war'"

TANNET 2010-04-07 pure co-incidence, but only 3 days later the man-in-black created havoc and 'someone' lobbed grenades on an army colonel and staff.

And things really got going when the government got serious on removing the protesters.

2010-05-15

"Thailand's Red Shirts ready to 'wage war' against government"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/20/thailand-red-shirts-wage-war

AS I said before, if on the 10th of April 2010 no grenades had been lobbed, no man-in-black mysteriously had appeared and helped the protesters, would we have seen any deaths? Would we?

Whilst I find it as odd as many other posters as to why Nattawut could declare a war on behalf of all red shirts and now be an MP having been (and continuing to be) processed through the Thai legal system for his actions at that time, I do accept it. Because this is not my country and they do things differently here.

As far as I can tell, the 'declaration of war' by one member of a rather large group of 'leaders' at the time - some of whom (like Veera) obviously didn't share his feelings - clearly doesn't seem to be the treacherous act - with its associated penalties - that we consider it to be in our own countries. Otherwise he surely wouldn't be in the position he is in now.

My dear hanuman1, IMHO that's plain and utter BS.

Whereas you should not take the 'declaration of war' that literal, most UDD leaders (note, not red-shirt leaders, UDD leaders) showed unity. PTV shoutcasts had all the main stage speeches, and before other organised speeches. K. Veera might have been a bit more moderate, but he was not accepted as such (did he end up as MP?). It's totally unexplainable to people abroad how those 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists' who advocated hate against the then government and establishment in general could end up as party list candidate and UDD MPs. In 'our' countries that would not be possible. Welcome to Thailand with a puppet/clone government which has it's main 'thinker' as 'eternal friend' of a different head of state who likes to pester Thailand.

PLease also remember that those UDD MPs are still accused of terrorism (not treason), but their case will have to wait for now as they enjoy parliamentary immunity. By constitution and/or law. Democracy as they call it.

[Siam Simon]

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1027525

(link from buchholz)

Wow, that's convincing, a declaration of war on behalf of the Red Shirts made by TAN. Do you have any idea Buchholz or do you just google and grab the first thing that "apparently" suits your "argument"?

2010-03-18

"Thai Red Shirts declare 'class war'"

TANNET 2010-04-07 pure co-incidence, but only 3 days later the man-in-black created havoc and 'someone' lobbed grenades on an army colonel and staff.

And things really got going when the government got serious on removing the protesters.

2010-05-15

"Thailand's Red Shirts ready to 'wage war' against government"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/20/thailand-red-shirts-wage-war

AS I said before, if on the 10th of April 2010 no grenades had been lobbed, no man-in-black mysteriously had appeared and helped the protesters, would we have seen any deaths? Would we?

Don't waste your time, rubl.

The type with apparently no memory or just uninformed or are just trolling are hardly worth the effort.

They'll come up with every excuse they can in defense of their Reds whether it's the news source or that it wasn't a signed declaration by every member in the Red gang or... or....

.

.

I see you're heeding your own advice, as usual, and discussing the subject matter not the poster .

[Siam Simon]

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1027525

(link from buchholz)

Wow, that's convincing, a declaration of war on behalf of the Red Shirts made by TAN. Do you have any idea Buchholz or do you just google and grab the first thing that "apparently" suits your "argument"?

2010-03-18

"Thai Red Shirts declare 'class war'"

TANNET 2010-04-07 pure co-incidence, but only 3 days later the man-in-black created havoc and 'someone' lobbed grenades on an army colonel and staff.

And things really got going when the government got serious on removing the protesters.

2010-05-15

"Thailand's Red Shirts ready to 'wage war' against government"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/20/thailand-red-shirts-wage-war

AS I said before, if on the 10th of April 2010 no grenades had been lobbed, no man-in-black mysteriously had appeared and helped the protesters, would we have seen any deaths? Would we?

Whilst I find it as odd as many other posters as to why Nattawut could declare a war on behalf of all red shirts and now be an MP having been (and continuing to be) processed through the Thai legal system for his actions at that time, I do accept it. Because this is not my country and they do things differently here.

As far as I can tell, the 'declaration of war' by one member of a rather large group of 'leaders' at the time - some of whom (like Veera) obviously didn't share his feelings - clearly doesn't seem to be the treacherous act - with its associated penalties - that we consider it to be in our own countries. Otherwise he surely wouldn't be in the position he is in now.

My dear hanuman1, IMHO that's plain and utter BS.

Whereas you should not take the 'declaration of war' that literal, most UDD leaders (note, not red-shirt leaders, UDD leaders) showed unity. PTV shoutcasts had all the main stage speeches, and before other organised speeches. K. Veera might have been a bit more moderate, but he was not accepted as such (did he end up as MP?). It's totally unexplainable to people abroad how those 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists' who advocated hate against the then government and establishment in general could end up as party list candidate and UDD MPs. In 'our' countries that would not be possible. Welcome to Thailand with a puppet/clone government which has it's main 'thinker' as 'eternal friend' of a different head of state who likes to pester Thailand.

PLease also remember that those UDD MPs are still accused of terrorism (not treason), but their case will have to wait for now as they enjoy parliamentary immunity. By constitution and/or law. Democracy as they call it.

There are lots of things that are unexplainable to people abroad. How about the leader of the then Opposition attending the funeral of a protestor who died trying to obstruct parliament from conducting it's affairs? How about a politician attending a highly illegal and economically destructive shutdown protest of the country's main airport, giving a speech at said shutdown spewing bile about a neighbouring country's leader, and shortly thereafter being 'punished' by being awarded his country's foreign affairs portfolio?

We could go on forever finding Amazing Thailand anomalies in all sides of the political spectrum. Trying to use this as a debating tool is very lame.

[longway]

For anyone who was actually on the streets last year, and i mean really on the streets while the events were kicking off.

Whether the army fired on the camera men by mistake or not

It was a full on war after 8pm

It was chaos and even the reds were not wearing red uniforms so they could attack the army without being fired on first.

It was a dirty fight - and no matter how many died in the process.

The reds could have avoided it all if they did not barricade the business sector with sharpened bamboo and bring in weapons.

In any WAR (which is what the reds declared)

there will be innocent casualties and mistakes due to fatigue, confusion or fear.

Trying to cast the blame on the army or the reds...

Sorry but for someone who was witness to the whole thing, as i was living directly opposite the red camp.

I have no dellussions as to what really went on - peaceful protest in the name of democracy was certainly absolute lies.

Only at the end the reds did not wear red T-shirts anymore, as many Reds were arrested while leaving or attempting to enter the camp for violations against the emergency decree, and summarily sentenced to 6 months and 1 year sentences. Many were also attacked by supporters of the government outside the camp.

During the April 10 clashes at Democracy Monument the Red Shirt protesters still wore red.

As to the situation - yes, it looked like a war. Declared? Not exactly. The April 10 clashes began by a dispersal action of the military whose decisive action began one and a half hours before darkness, against all usual procedures.

The final 6 days began with a crackdown that the military started with the assassination of Sae Daeng. The frst dead Red Shirt in May was a protester (wearing a red T-Shirt) armed with a video camera, and was shot by the military about 20 meters away from me.

Red Shirt militants shot at soldiers. Soldiers shot at anyone, including journalists and unarmed protesters.

One thing i do agree though - the permanent occupation of Rajaprasong was in my opinion a huge mistake of the Red Shirts, and should never have been done.

Mistake? Thats an interesting way to gloss over a tactic that was used in a strategy to ensure as much bloodshed as possible. There is no way of denying that army involvement was inevitable after the paying off of the poice to assist the prtesters, and heavy handed tactics assured by seeding the protesters with armed militants constantly skirmishing with the army and barricading thousands of people behind fortificatons in the heart of bangkok.

A mistake? Deliberate and carefully crafted plan more like.

BTW pls dont think I believe this excuses the army, but I feel that elements of the red shirts and Thaksin need to be held just as responsible what what happened as the army and government.

Edited September 18, 2011 by longway

[whybother]

Whilst I find it as odd as many other posters as to why Nattawut could declare a war on behalf of all red shirts and now be an MP having been (and continuing to be) processed through the Thai legal system for his actions at that time, I do accept it. Because this is not my country and they do things differently here.

As far as I can tell, the 'declaration of war' by one member of a rather large group of 'leaders' at the time - some of whom (like Veera) obviously didn't share his feelings - clearly doesn't seem to be the treacherous act - with its associated penalties - that we consider it to be in our own countries. Otherwise he surely wouldn't be in the position he is in now.

And if it is the Thai judicial system that is at fault for allowing him to now be an MP whilst waiting for pending cases to go to court, maybe that system is as much to blame for his position of power now as he is. People come and go. Systems are what need changing in this country.

"the 'declaration of war' by one member of a rather large group of 'leaders' at the time"

That's a good plan, isn't it. Have a few leaders, so that anything any one of the says can be denied as just "by one leader".

Did any of the other leaders try and retract the statement, or did they all agree with it?

[scotbeve]

Seems the war is on within this thread.....

Not to go off topic, but another relative question concerning the "Black Shirts".... What became of the theory that Newin was in charge of the black shirts - who, may have changed the shirt color from blue to the then present black? And were these black shirts foreigners (rumored to Khmer mercenaries...)?

[whybother]

Seems the war is on within this thread.....

Not to go off topic, but another relative question concerning the "Black Shirts".... What became of the theory that Newin was in charge of the black shirts - who, may have changed the shirt color from blue to the then present black? And were these black shirts foreigners (rumored to Khmer mercenaries...)?

When was that theory mentioned? That's the first time I've seen it, although it doesn't surprise me. I remember some theories along the lines of them being Cambodians put in there by the government. That seems just as likely as your theory.

[hanuman1]

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1027525

(link from buchholz)

Wow, that's convincing, a declaration of war on behalf of the Red Shirts made by TAN. Do you have any idea Buchholz or do you just google and grab the first thing that "apparently" suits your "argument"?

2010-03-18

"Thai Red Shirts declare 'class war'"

TANNET 2010-04-07 pure co-incidence, but only 3 days later the man-in-black created havoc and 'someone' lobbed grenades on an army colonel and staff.

And things really got going when the government got serious on removing the protesters.

2010-05-15

"Thailand's Red Shirts ready to 'wage war' against government"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/20/thailand-red-shirts-wage-war

AS I said before, if on the 10th of April 2010 no grenades had been lobbed, no man-in-black mysteriously had appeared and helped the protesters, would we have seen any deaths? Would we?

Whilst I find it as odd as many other posters as to why Nattawut could declare a war on behalf of all red shirts and now be an MP having been (and continuing to be) processed through the Thai legal system for his actions at that time, I do accept it. Because this is not my country and they do things differently here.

As far as I can tell, the 'declaration of war' by one member of a rather large group of 'leaders' at the time - some of whom (like Veera) obviously didn't share his feelings - clearly doesn't seem to be the treacherous act - with its associated penalties - that we consider it to be in our own countries. Otherwise he surely wouldn't be in the position he is in now.

My dear hanuman1, IMHO that's plain and utter BS.

Whereas you should not take the 'declaration of war' that literal, most UDD leaders (note, not red-shirt leaders, UDD leaders) showed unity. PTV shoutcasts had all the main stage speeches, and before other organised speeches. K. Veera might have been a bit more moderate, but he was not accepted as such (did he end up as MP?). It's totally unexplainable to people abroad how those 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists' who advocated hate against the then government and establishment in general could end up as party list candidate and UDD MPs. In 'our' countries that would not be possible. Welcome to Thailand with a puppet/clone government which has it's main 'thinker' as 'eternal friend' of a different head of state who likes to pester Thailand.

PLease also remember that those UDD MPs are still accused of terrorism (not treason), but their case will have to wait for now as they enjoy parliamentary immunity. By constitution and/or law. Democracy as they call it.

Dear Uncle Rubl

My post is plain and utter BS when yours simply agrees with - and reinforces - what it says? Don't be too hard on yourself. I thought your post was quite good

[hanuman1]

Whilst I find it as odd as many other posters as to why Nattawut could declare a war on behalf of all red shirts and now be an MP having been (and continuing to be) processed through the Thai legal system for his actions at that time, I do accept it. Because this is not my country and they do things differently here.

As far as I can tell, the 'declaration of war' by one member of a rather large group of 'leaders' at the time - some of whom (like Veera) obviously didn't share his feelings - clearly doesn't seem to be the treacherous act - with its associated penalties - that we consider it to be in our own countries. Otherwise he surely wouldn't be in the position he is in now.

And if it is the Thai judicial system that is at fault for allowing him to now be an MP whilst waiting for pending cases to go to court, maybe that system is as much to blame for his position of power now as he is. People come and go. Systems are what need changing in this country.

"the 'declaration of war' by one member of a rather large group of 'leaders' at the time"

That's a good plan, isn't it. Have a few leaders, so that anything any one of the says can be denied as just "by one leader".

Did any of the other leaders try and retract the statement, or did they all agree with it?

Your point may be valid if it can be shown that there was in fact a 'good plan' involving the appointment of several leaders in order to reduce responsibility for what any one individual had said. Do we know who appointed them as leaders? Was it they themselves? Was it Thaksin? Was it a central Red Shirt command? Or was it the media? From what I remember, there seemed to be a new 'leader' each time someone stood up on the rally stage to make a speech. That's how it was reported, anyway.

Indeed, reporting the hot-headed diatribes of radical speakers and then saying they came from 'leaders' is a great way of radicalizing the entire movement in the eyes of the readership in general. But who'd want to do something like that?

Edited September 19, 2011 by hanuman1

[Buchholz]

Whilst I find it as odd as many other posters as to why Nattawut could declare a war on behalf of all red shirts and now be an MP having been (and continuing to be) processed through the Thai legal system for his actions at that time, I do accept it. Because this is not my country and they do things differently here.

As far as I can tell, the 'declaration of war' by one member of a rather large group of 'leaders' at the time - some of whom (like Veera) obviously didn't share his feelings - clearly doesn't seem to be the treacherous act - with its associated penalties - that we consider it to be in our own countries. Otherwise he surely wouldn't be in the position he is in now.

And if it is the Thai judicial system that is at fault for allowing him to now be an MP whilst waiting for pending cases to go to court, maybe that system is as much to blame for his position of power now as he is. People come and go. Systems are what need changing in this country.

"the 'declaration of war' by one member of a rather large group of 'leaders' at the time"

That's a good plan, isn't it. Have a few leaders, so that anything any one of the says can be denied as just "by one leader".

Did any of the other leaders try and retract the statement, or did they all agree with it?

Your point may be valid if it can be shown that there was in fact a 'good plan' involving the appointment of several leaders in order to reduce responsibility for what any one individual had said. Do we know who appointed them as leaders? Was it they themselves? Was it Thaksin? Was it a central Red Shirt command? Or was it the media? From what I remember, there seemed to be a new 'leader' each time someone stood up on the rally stage to make a speech. That's how it was reported, anyway.

Indeed, reporting the hot-headed diatribes of radical speakers and then saying they came from 'leaders' is a great way of radicalizing the entire movement in the eyes of the readership in general. But who'd want to do something like that?

I'm sure that if anyone identified as a Red Shirt Leader in a media report was not, in fact, a Red Shirt Leader, the other Red Shirt Leaders would have sued the Fake Red Shirt Leader and/or the media outlet. At the very least they would screamed endlessly about a biased media on this specific issue.

Certainly that sort of protecting their own leadership integrity would be the very least one would expect, particularly from Red Shirt Leaders who became Members of Parliament.

.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Buchholz

[rubl]

Your point may be valid if it can be shown that there was in fact a 'good plan' involving the appointment of several leaders in order to reduce responsibility for what any one individual had said. Do we know who appointed them as leaders? Was it they themselves? Was it Thaksin? Was it a central Red Shirt command? Or was it the media? From what I remember, there seemed to be a new 'leader' each time someone stood up on the rally stage to make a speech. That's how it was reported, anyway.

Indeed, reporting the hot-headed diatribes of radical speakers and then saying they came from 'leaders' is a great way of radicalizing the entire movement in the eyes of the readership in general. But who'd want to do something like that?

Maybe a team of UDD leaders, although some confuse the issue by saying 'red-shirt' leaders as if that's the same

2010-05-10

"No new team of red shirts leaders : Nuttawut

A red shirt leader on Monday dismissed as groundless a claim by an outspoken general that ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra appointed new team of red shirts leaders.

Nuttawut Saikua said Maj Gen Kattiya Sawasdipol maybe misinformed or misunderstood that Thaksin was not happy with the existing red shirt leaders who Kattiya said were changing their position to a compromising one in their talks with Abhisit government.

"Seh Daeng's report is not correct. Maybe he is misinformed," Nuttawut said.

Kattiya claimed Monday that he talked to Thaksin on a phone on Sunday. "Thaksin said he would appoint of new team of the red shirts leaders."

The new team would exclude Veera Musikapong, Jatuporn Prompan, Dr weng Tohjirakarn and Nuttawut Saikua as they appeared to agree with Abhisit's roadmap and prefer to end the rally.

The group had several secret meeting with Abhisit's team, Kattiya said.

Nuttawut told reporters that even Thaksin has no authority to change the leaders' team.

Each of the new team claimed by Seh Daeng has not yet been contacted about the matter, Nuttawut said.

Kattiya quoted Thaksin as saying that those who did not want to fight on should go home.

The new team comprises Arisamun Pongruengrong, Suporn Attawong, Kwanchai Praipana, Waipot Apornrat."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/05/10/politics/No-new-team-of-red-shirts-leaders-Nuttawut-30128956.html

Even though it was probably the army, there was and still is speculation as to who else might have wanted to shoot the renegade general

[longway]

Seems the war is on within this thread.....

Not to go off topic, but another relative question concerning the "Black Shirts".... What became of the theory that Newin was in charge of the black shirts - who, may have changed the shirt color from blue to the then present black? And were these black shirts foreigners (rumored to Khmer mercenaries...)?

When was that theory mentioned? That's the first time I've seen it, although it doesn't surprise me. I remember some theories along the lines of them being Cambodians put in there by the government. That seems just as likely as your theory.

If you feel uncomfortable about the role of black shirts during the protests and find it hard to reconcile their presence with your beliefs it would be far more simple to just blindfold yourself, put your hands over your ears and go lalalala until the feeling goes away than to bring up absurd consipracy theories to mitigate the responsibility of the UDD leadership.

[Babcock]

Seems the war is on within this thread.....

Not to go off topic, but another relative question concerning the "Black Shirts".... What became of the theory that Newin was in charge of the black shirts - who, may have changed the shirt color from blue to the then present black? And were these black shirts foreigners (rumored to Khmer mercenaries...)?

When was that theory mentioned? That's the first time I've seen it, although it doesn't surprise me. I remember some theories along the lines of them being Cambodians put in there by the government. That seems just as likely as your theory.

If you feel uncomfortable about the role of black shirts during the protests and find it hard to reconcile their presence with your beliefs it would be far more simple to just blindfold yourself, put your hands over your ears and go lalalala until the feeling goes away than to bring up absurd consipracy theories to mitigate the responsibility of the UDD leadership.

All we know is that not one of these "blackshirts" have ever been found. They melted away like.

[longway]

^ See that's more like it. No need to invent conspiracies just pretend they don't exist. Problem solved.

[scotbeve]

^ See that's more like it. No need to invent conspiracies just pretend they don't exist. Problem solved.

:jap:

[TAWP]

And honestly what you maintain or speculate here will play no role whatsoever as the closest you have been to this incident is conversing with me on this forum here.

Play no role whatsoever? Excuse me, but this is a public discussion forum, not a court of law, or an official investigation. Every member is given an exactly equal role - that being contribution.

Don't take it so personal, the non-journalist-trained Nick is just suffering from hubris and thinks his writing has any value in the grand scale of things, and don't mind going dirty and proclaiming that other posters wasn't around or has any knowledge of any of the events.

[TAWP]

All we know is that not one of these "blackshirts" have ever been found. They melted away like.

That can only be the conclusion by someone that refuses to read the news properly.

I'll let someone else post links to Sae Daengs helpers being arrested [and sentenced] with war weapons etc, all of them fingered as being part of thed black shirts group.

[phiphidon]

All we know is that not one of these "blackshirts" have ever been found. They melted away like.

That can only be the conclusion by someone that refuses to read the news properly.

I'll let someone else post links to Sae Daengs helpers being arrested [and sentenced] with war weapons etc, all of them fingered as being part of thed black shirts group.

No go on, TAWP you do it. I do not recall any news sories regarding Seh Daengs helpers being fingered as part of the black shirts group at all.............

One Aide, Pornwat Thongthanabool, was aquitted of posting a terror threat on You Tube. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/452373-bangkok-criminal-court-acquits-seh-daengs-aide-k-thong-of-terror-threats-on-youtube/

Apparently the only one suspected of being a black shirt (by the DSI that is) is Wanlop Phithiphromwho confessed but under duress ( I posted a lot earlier on this case when the defendant was threatened by Tharit that his wife and mother would be charged with illegal arms dealing.)

27-year-old Wanlop Phithiphrom is the only suspected "man in black" who has confessed to the DSI. Arrested on 22 November 2010, Wanlop reportedly admitted that he had fired M-79 grenades in various areas in Bangkok during the protests, including several branches of Bangkok Bank. He is said to have confessed to firing more than 100 grenades at security forces during the tense stand-off around the protest site in May 2010; and to have admitted involvement in four grenade attacks in Chiang Mai, including an incident at the construction company of the father-in-law of Thaksinturncoat politician Newin Chidchob.27

Wanlop later told a news conference that he acted alone out of "anger" after seeing soldiers firing live bullets at Red Shirt protesters in 2009 and disguised himself as a UDD guard during the 2010 demonstrations. Wanlop said that he learned to use a grenade launcher as a conscript in the military and the weapons were illegally bought from a border province.28

In an interview with Crisis Group, Wanlop said he was forced to confess. He said he was detained for two days before being taken to the Bangkok press conference, during which he was not allowed to receive calls from his relatives.29

27 Police assert that Wanlop was involved in eight grenade attacks in Bangkok between 16 March and 19 May. He is said to have fired grenades at three branches of the Bangkok Bank, as he believed it supported the PAD. He was involved in a grenade attack at Government House on 10 April. He reportedly fired over 100 grenades at security forces during the tense stand-off around the protest site between 14 and 19 May. In Chiang Mai, Wanlop also reportedly admitted firing grenades at the car park of a discount store and a furniture factory on 4 April and a military base on 6 September. "จับมือ M79 ป่วนเมือง", ไทยรัฐ, 24 พฤศจิกายน 2553 ["M-79 grenade attackers arrested", Thai Rath, 24 November 2010].

28 Ibid.

29 Crisis Group interview, Wanlop Phithiphrom, Chiang Mai, 7 April 2011. He vowed to fight the case in court.

http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/asia/south-east-asia/thailand/B121-%20Thailand-%20The%20Calm%20Before%20Another%20Storm.pdf

I look forward to your post about convicted men in black.

Edited September 21, 2011 by phiphidon

[rubl]

All we know is that not one of these "blackshirts" have ever been found. They melted away like.

That can only be the conclusion by someone that refuses to read the news properly.

I'll let someone else post links to Sae Daengs helpers being arrested [and sentenced] with war weapons etc, all of them fingered as being part of thed black shirts group.

No go on, TAWP you do it. I do not recall any news sories regarding Seh Daengs helpers being fingered as part of the black shirts group at all.............

A bit of obfuscation there, my dear friend. The structure of the renegade general, his helpers and 'men-in-black' is still unclear and not understood. On the other hand we have k. Jatuporn saying on April 10th 2010, just before the clash got bloody:

"“There will be blood on the street if the government does not call off the dispersal operations,” Jatuporn declared. “Our patience is running out. We will take more serious measures to retaliate. The dark sky will turn red, red like blood.”[83]"

and

"The evening’s first clashes broke out around 7:20 p.m. at Khok Wua junction at the foot of the Khao San Road tourist district, but soon spilled over into a much greater area. Video footage taken just before the clashes reached the Democracy Monument in front of Din So Road around 8 p.m. shows the army trying to calm the crowd by playing music, and Red Shirt protesters dancing and engaging amicably with the soldiers. Suddenly, shots rang out. Within minutes a full-scale riot erupted, with protesters throwing rocks, sticks, and chairs at the soldiers. Several grenades and Molotov cocktails were also hurled at soldiers, who were forced to retreat. Intense gunfire followed. As the army attempted to move on the camp, they were confronted by well-armed men who fired M16 and AK-47 assault rifles at them, particularly at the Khok Wua intersection on Rajdamnoen Road. They also fired grenades from M79s and threw M67 hand grenades at the soldiers.[85] News footage and videos taken by protesters and tourists show several soldiers lying unconscious and bleeding on the ground, as well as armed men operating with a high degree of coordination and military skills.[86] According to some accounts, they specifically aimed at the commanding officers of the army units involved in the crowd dispersal operations, sowing panic among the soldiers.[87] Human Rights Watch investigations concluded this group consisted of Black Shirts deployed among the UDD protesters."

From

"Descent into Chaos

May 3, 2011

V. Bangkok’s Descent into Chaos"

Copyright © 2010-2011 Human Right Watch

[phiphidon]

All we know is that not one of these "blackshirts" have ever been found. They melted away like.

That can only be the conclusion by someone that refuses to read the news properly.

I'll let someone else post links to Sae Daengs helpers being arrested [and sentenced] with war weapons etc, all of them fingered as being part of thed black shirts group.

No go on, TAWP you do it. I do not recall any news sories regarding Seh Daengs helpers being fingered as part of the black shirts group at all.............

A bit of obfuscation there, my dear friend. The structure of the renegade general, his helpers and 'men-in-black' is still unclear and not understood. On the other hand we have k. Jatuporn saying on April 10th 2010, just before the clash got bloody:

""There will be blood on the street if the government does not call off the dispersal operations," Jatuporn declared. "Our patience is running out. We will take more serious measures to retaliate. The dark sky will turn red, red like blood."[83]"

and

"The evening's first clashes broke out around 7:20 p.m. at Khok Wua junction at the foot of the Khao San Road tourist district, but soon spilled over into a much greater area. Video footage taken just before the clashes reached the Democracy Monument in front of Din So Road around 8 p.m. shows the army trying to calm the crowd by playing music, and Red Shirt protesters dancing and engaging amicably with the soldiers. Suddenly, shots rang out. Within minutes a full-scale riot erupted, with protesters throwing rocks, sticks, and chairs at the soldiers. Several grenades and Molotov cocktails were also hurled at soldiers, who were forced to retreat. Intense gunfire followed. As the army attempted to move on the camp, they were confronted by well-armed men who fired M16 and AK-47 assault rifles at them, particularly at the Khok Wua intersection on Rajdamnoen Road. They also fired grenades from M79s and threw M67 hand grenades at the soldiers.[85] News footage and videos taken by protesters and tourists show several soldiers lying unconscious and bleeding on the ground, as well as armed men operating with a high degree of coordination and military skills.[86] According to some accounts, they specifically aimed at the commanding officers of the army units involved in the crowd dispersal operations, sowing panic among the soldiers.[87] Human Rights Watch investigations concluded this group consisted of Black Shirts deployed among the UDD protesters."

From

"Descent into Chaos

May 3, 2011

V. Bangkok's Descent into Chaos"

Copyright © 2010-2011 Human Right Watch

Sorry, Rubl, you replied mid edit, I pressed the button before adding my reasons why I'm not obfuscating but wish to see TAWP's unequivical proof that Seh Daengs aides/helpers were blackshirts and have been convicted as such.

[rubl]

Sorry, Rubl, you replied mid edit, I pressed the button before adding my reasons why I'm not obfuscating but wish to see TAWP's unequivical proof that Seh Daengs aides/helpers were blackshirts and have been convicted as such.

Can happen, no problem.

Seh Daeng has mentioned his training of 'rohin', walked proudly along the bamboo wall, showing it to reporters. On April 10th he was less in the limelight. Maybe instructing his 'helpers' how to tackle the army? Who knows, who tells?

Still in relation to victims and red-shirt protests it seems more important to accept that the UDD had a violent militant group in it midst which created havoc especially when UDD MPs still deny any wrong doing and want only the army prosecuted (and k. Abhisit/Suthep of course).

PS did you read the HRW report? I'm not saying it's perfect, but good starting point. Even Robert A. liked it enough to pick out those bits and pieces which seem to help his case, studiously ignoring the rest

Edited September 21, 2011 by rubl