Ulysses G. Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 The Palestinian Arabs have signed many treaties claiming that they will negotiate land for peace, but they never get around to the peace part. They have turned Gaza into one big rocket launcher and do not qualify for their own state until they live up to their commitments under the Oslo accords and other documents that they have signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 IMO the issue is really about whether or not Palestine can reject a neighbor nation. Or, does such a rejection disqualify the Palestinians in some shape or form. I don't know the answer but I don't see a rejection from a terrorist group having much weight. I have routinely stated that I do not, at this time, favor Palestinian statehood due to my general belief that Palestine cannot govern itself in its present form. I do not consider recognition of Israel as relevant. I am now leaning toward statehood but not sold on the idea. It is just a simple damage estimate on my part. I guess giving them the opportunity to fail might be the safest for the rest of the world. It will not stop the violence. The divide IMO is too big to overcome but the current arrangement is not working and Palestine is not a state yet, and cannot be treated as one by the United Nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 It will not stop the violence. Exactly. That is the whole problem in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I am kind of with Pakboong on the issue. I would like to see Palestine granted statehood, but only after it grows up. As it is, it's a little like emancipated your 16 year old child that you can't control. It probably won't end well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I would like to see Palestine granted statehood, but only after it grows up. That is how I feel too. When they are sincerely ready to live in peace with Israel, there are not too many people who would wish to deny them their own state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The Palestinians have turned down every single chance for a negotiated peace. Utter nonsense. Seriously, how stupid do you believe the rest of us to be to say something like this? “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” - Joseph Goebbels. Israel has been vilified systematically by its enemies who either through religious or ideological hatred seek to destroy it. Sadly Israel and her allies have to perpetually fight a defensive battle on the issues chosen by her enemies or press censorship and 'hate speech' laws are used to silence those who point out the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maidu Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I think the US should stand aside (abstain) from a security council vote. It would be smarter from a diplomatic perspective. Even if the Palestinians fail in their bid for Statehood (which they likely will, with a US veto), they will surely succeed with getting 'UN Observation Status' in a subsequent vote by the General Assembly. Even so, it won't change the ingrained hatred by many Palestinians and some Israelis for each other. It won't change many Palestinians' (and most other dune countries') declarations to obliterate Israel. Hate to say it, but another war is inevitable - regardless of the maneuverings at the UN. Add it to the other potential global flashpoints in today's world: China/Taiwan, India/Pakistan, N.Korea/everyone else. .......and perversely, could put a dent in chronic overpopulation in those regions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The Palestinians have turned down every single chance for a negotiated peace. Utter nonsense. Seriously, how stupid do you believe the rest of us to be to say something like this? “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” - Joseph Goebbels. Israel has been vilified systematically by its enemies who either through religious or ideological hatred seek to destroy it. Sadly Israel and her allies have to perpetually fight a defensive battle on the issues chosen by her enemies or press censorship and 'hate speech' laws are used to silence those who point out the truth. I am curious as to why a neighbor nation would be logically expected to recognize a nuclear armed country who repeatedly refuses to sign the NPT and who has routinely ignored a record number of UN sanctions/resolutions. IMO, vilification would be a natural response to such a history. I do not have a dog in the fight so perhaps if I did, I would see it differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 You can always twist the Israeli propgandists view around. Israel/US will veto the UN vote until Palestine acknowledges Israel's right to exist. Palestine will not acknowledge Israel's right to exist until Israel/US accepts it as a nation/state. It isn't all about Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) As has been said over and over again, the Palestinian Arabs are violating more than one treaty that they have signed. Edited September 20, 2011 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maidu Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 About 20 years ago, Arafat had a golden opportunity to improve the entire situation. Israel was offering all sorts of concessions. It was a stellar win-win for the Palestinians. Bowing to pressure from Hamas extremists, Arafat did one of his typically stupid decisions, and didn't sign. What ensued was years of armed conflict which benefited no one, and which still goes on today. Because Arafat was such a stupid man, the suffering of the Palestinians continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 As has been said over and over again, the Palestinian Arabs are violating more than one treaty that they have signed. Say it as many times as you like, it still pales in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 About 20 years ago, Arafat had a golden opportunity to improve the entire situation. Israel was offering all sorts of concessions. It was a stellar win-win for the Palestinians. Bowing to pressure from Hamas extremists, Arafat did one of his typically stupid decisions, and didn't sign. What ensued was years of armed conflict which benefited noone, and which still goes on today. Because Arafat was such a stupid man, the suffering of the Palestinians continues. By some estimates Yasser Arafat has amassed a personal wealth of $1.3 billion by 2003. It is also well documented that Hamas leaders have abused their power to amass considerable wealth. With aid money flowing in from the well intentioned and naive it has always been in their interests for the status quo to continue indefinitely. As I've stated before this is a game without end which was never intended to end except with the annihilation of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 About 20 years ago, Arafat had a golden opportunity to improve the entire situation. Israel was offering all sorts of concessions. It was a stellar win-win for the Palestinians. Bowing to pressure from Hamas extremists, Arafat did one of his typically stupid decisions, and didn't sign. What ensued was years of armed conflict which benefited noone, and which still goes on today. Because Arafat was such a stupid man, the suffering of the Palestinians continues. By some estimates Yasser Arafat has amassed a personal wealth of $1.3 billion by 2003. It is also well documented that Hamas leaders have abused their power to amass considerable wealth. With aid money flowing in from the well intentioned and naive it has always been in their interests for the status quo to continue indefinitely. As I've stated before this is a game without end which was never intended to end except with the annihilation of Israel. In a 2001 video, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]... I said I would, but [that] I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."[15][16] Netanyahu then explained how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations," and insisted he be allowed to specify which areas constituted a "military location" - such as the whole of the Jordan Valley. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords," Netanyahu affirmed.[17] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up-country_sinclair Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 As I've stated before this is a game without end which was never intended to end except with the annihilation of Israel. So which is it then? By the way, you do have a flair for the dramatic, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave111223 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) I'd just like to say that I have no affiliation with Arabs or Jews, and have only been following the situation in Israel for the last few years, but at this point I feel very sympathetic toward the Palestinians cause. The way I see it over the last few years: - Some terrorists in Gaza send rockets over the borders vs. Israel flattens half a city. - Some activists arrive on a boat vs. Israel sends commandos on board and a bunch of activists end up dead. Turkey ask for a simple apology Israel says no - Unknown persons shoot across the Egyptian border kills some Israeli soldiers vs. Israel kills some Egyptian border guards. Egypt ask for a simple apology Israel says no - Palestine goes to the UN to be considered a country, US/Israel say asking for a vote is an "asking for war"...? "Come back to the negotiation table with Israel's big brother USA as a neutral mediator"...(doesn't seem to make sense). Surely if any kind of negotiations were to be successful you'd require a neutral mediator...i don't know someone like Norway or Sweden or even Thailand; with very little vested interest in either side? In the past I used to watch the Israeli, US and Palestinian propaganda and weigh it all about equally as containing some fact and some fiction. But at the moment the US/Israeli propaganda is so hypocritical it really makes me cringe. I was watching Fareed Zakaria the other day and he had 4 Americans "debating" the issue. They basically just all sat there for the entire "debate" saying Palestine is asking for war, repeatedly using words like "Dumb", "Stupid", "Boneheaded"...do they really think the rest of the world is going to swallow a farce debate like this? I suppose I'm not really disappointed in the Israelis; they got to do what they think is best for them, every man for himself and if they think keeping the Palestinians down is better for Israel then you'd expect them to do it. My problem is more with the US. They are trying to act like they are some kind of global unbiased authority; while the other hand does the exact opposite. How can you say "Palestinians are not fit to govern themselves"...and yet support a bunch of rebels with machine guns mounted to pickup trucks in Libya and say "These guys should be governing a country" How can you support democracy but then say asking for a UN vote is unacceptable? This really makes no sense to me; isn't this the exact purpose of the UN to handle peacefully grievances between countries? And they even threaten to withhold their UN dues if they even hear the bid! And then they trot out phrases like "one country one vote is not a democracy"...if you don't think the UN is right, then are you in it? How can you support democracy but then if democratic opinion in countries like Egypt and Turkey is pro-Palestinian you say they it's not a democracy and just "rogue leader" or "groups of thugs". For me the only way the US can redeem itself and regain some shred of fairness is to abstain from the vote and let the world decide on the issue. (or just use a regular vote but not a veto...not sure if this is possible?). If you were "negotiating" something with someone and you could not come to any agreement; the logical next step would be to go and find a 3rd party to weigh in on the case and help resolve it...what other 3rd party would you suggest in this case...instead of the UN? It seems to me that the Israelis are happy with the status quo; as it stands they just keep build settlements, and let's say they can continue pushing the current situation for 50 years or something, they then can say "why would we give that lands to the Palestinian it's mostly Israelis living there"...what reason do they have to sincerely negotiate? To me a lot of the pro-Israeli argument on here and on television sounds like Arsene Wenger after a really bad game..."the ref. bad", "that goal was offside", "we should have had 2 penalties", "the pitch was awful", "the ball was too round" Edited September 20, 2011 by dave111223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 In a 2001 video, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]... I said I would, but [that] I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."[15][16] Netanyahu then explained how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations," and insisted he be allowed to specify which areas constituted a "military location" - such as the whole of the Jordan Valley. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords," Netanyahu affirmed.[17] Ah that old expansionist Israel meme. Such Chutzpah Netanyahu arguing that it would be impossible to defend a Country 9 miles long at it's narrowest point, which is exactly what the 1967 borders would mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Nice opinion piece dave111223 level headed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo the Face Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Excellent post Dave111223. Very well said and I would say balanced. :jap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Excellent Dave. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedzie Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14981633 Israel offering yet more talk at the UN general assembly. It's a pity that the powerful Jewish lobby in the US dictates policy over the middle east, not what Obama or anyone else thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Ok, how about everyone stepping back and looking at this from a disinterested perspective. Look at the violence in the PLA controlled areas. Are the acts of intimidation, the beatings, the torture, the denial of due process effected by the arabs against their fellow arabs the work of the Israelis? Do you really think that the majority of the attacks launched against Israel are intended to protect the arabs? I offer that it is displaced aggression from a frustrated population kept impoverished and fed a steady stream of hate filled propaganda because it is easier to unite a common outside enemy than it is to deal with the disease of corruption and abuse that characterizes the PLA zones. Blame Israel, blame the jews, blame the American Christians, blame secularism, blame demon spirits, and one doesn't have to accept responsibility for multiple, successive bad decisions and positions motivated by backward doctrine, greed and petty hatred. Oh sure, some of you will dismiss my observation, but think about it. After all these decades of support, of aid, the Palestinian arabs have nothing to show for it. In Gaza the religious extremists Hamas rule that curtail the most basic of human rights and in the west bank, it is the bloated corrupt Fatah that chokes the people. Had the arabs invested in their population, educating and training 2-3 generations of emancipated people that had set about building their society, no one could deny their stated goal of a state. If the arabs were not intent on wiping out Israel and had instead focused on improving their lives by investing in the future, they would have been unstoppable. Yes, we hear the stories of the displaced arabs and there are indeed some legitimate grievances. However, the million or so arab jews that were expelled or that lost all that they had in their arab homelands are ignored. How is it that with all of the billions of money given to these displaced arabs, they are still frothing at the mouth and yet the displaced arab jews who didn't receive UN, European, USA or Gulf state aid have managed to set about re-establishing their lives? Think about it. The issue gets to the heart of evolution. Those that fail to adapt to their environment will eventually perish. Israel will adapt, but the Palestinian arabs so far have failed to demonstrate that ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUDAS Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 In a 2001 video, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]... I said I would, but [that] I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."[15][16] Netanyahu then explained how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations," and insisted he be allowed to specify which areas constituted a "military location" - such as the whole of the Jordan Valley. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords," Netanyahu affirmed.[17] Ah that old expansionist Israel meme. Such Chutzpah Netanyahu arguing that it would be impossible to defend a Country 9 miles long at it's narrowest point, which is exactly what the 1967 borders would mean. Watching that video from a fairly neutral view point I would say Israel would potentially be committing suicide by relinquishing control of the Jordan Valley ( amongst other areas ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Yes very well balanced Dave I see you are allowed to post cartoons by the antisemitic Latuf with apparent impunity. Personally I would not have a problem with that if it was a two way street but that would expose the lie. Just consider this; An estimated 50,000 lives have been lost during the so called Arab spring and scarcely anyone on this forum seems to give a dam_n. During that time Israel has only acted in self-defense and has to deal with the systematic use of human shields by Palestinian terrorists. Still in that time would you care to guess how many people died? But sadly as we all know a life has no value whatsoever unless it's taken by an Israeli and then the value is purely one of propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 That course, Iran's ambassador to Egypt said in a weekend interview, was merely one stage in a broader effort. The push for full membership as a UN member state "is a step towards wiping out Israel," Read more at: http://www.investigativeproject.org/3188/iranian-ambassador-un-vote-a-step-towards-wiping The left try to sugar coat it, but the Islamic radicals have no qualms whatsoever about spelling out the agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave111223 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I see you are allowed to post cartoons by the antisemitic Latuf with apparent impunity. Honestly i have no idea who "Latuf" is, i just searched Google images for an Israel-Palestinian cartoon to illustrate my opinion. This one specifically about the Rockets attacks vs. Gaza bombings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave111223 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Just consider this; An estimated 50,000 lives have been lost during the so called Arab spring and scarcely anyone on this forum seems to give a dam_n. During that time Israel has only acted in self-defense and has to deal with the systematic use of human shields by Palestinian terrorists. Still in that time would you care to guess how many people died? I'm not sure I understand your point? I don't think anyone would say that the killings of protestors by governments in Libya/Syria/Yemen/Egypt etc during the Arab uprising were good? In my opinion these governments are/were very much in the wrong. Are you likening the killing of Palestinian by Israels to the killing of Syrian protestors by the Assad government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) [ Why silly? What did I write that is incorrect? Where did the billions of $US provided to the Palestinians arabs go? There is nothing to show for that aid. What do you think will happen when this Palestinian state is created? Witll the waste, corruption and denial of civil rights inflicted upon arabs by other arabs miraculously cease? Edited September 20, 2011 by Scott Deleted quote edited out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I think in some cases a lack of knowledge can be an advantage for example with the cartoon that i posted, you were not able to evaluate it based on it's merits but instead reference the artists other works or points of view, and therefore immediately dismissed the cartoon. I agree that the second cartoon does is not a valid comparison between the Holocaust/concentration camps and the Gaza strip, but it does not mean i would therefore immediately dismiss any other work by this particular artist. I'd be interested to know if you are neutral observer or have connections with Judaism or Israel that are factored in to your view point? Yes Dave, I am Jewish, I'm also an atheist, but anyone with an axe to grind would consider me a Jewish atheist. With regard to your point and taking the cartoon you posted in isolation, I would observe that Israel only retaliates to missiles fired at it's own citizens. These missiles are fired from residential areas with the express intent of causing civilian casualties when Israel does retaliate. With respect to the Arab spring, my point is simply that the deaths stack up by the thousands and scarcely anyone on this forum can be bothered to comment, yet any transgression by Israel seems to attract huge amounts of scrutiny and apparent outrage. Have you considered why this might be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koheesti Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) Ok, how about evryone stepping back and looking at this from a disinterested perspective. Look at the violence in the PLA controlled areas. Are the acts of inditimidation, the beatings, the torture, the denial of due process effected by the arabs against their fellow arabs the work of the Israelis? Do you really think that the majority of the attacks launched against Israel are intended to protect the arabs? I offer that it is displaced aggression from a frustrated population kept impoverished and fed a steady stream of hate filled propaganda because it is easier to unite a common outside enemy than it is to deal with the disease of corruption and abuse that characterizes the PLA zones. Blame Israel, blame the jews, blame the American Christians, blame secularistsm, blame demon spirits, and one doesn't have to accept responsibility for multiple, successive bad decisions and positions motivated by backward doctrine, greed and petty hatred. Oh sure, some of you will dismiss my observation, but think about it. After all these decades of support, of aid, the Palestinian arabs have nothing to show for it. In Gaza the religious extremists Hamas rule that curtail the most basic of human rights and in the west bank, it is the bloated corrupt Fatah that chokes the people. Had the arabs invested in their populatio, educating and training 2-3 generations of emancipated people that had set about building their society, no one could deny their stated goal of a state. If the arabs were not intent on wiping out Israel and had instead focused on improving their lives by investing in the future, they would have been unstoppable. Yes, we hear the stories of the displaced arabs and there are indeed somve legitimate grievances. However, the million or so arab jews that were expelled or that lost all that they had in their arab homelands are ignored. How is it that with all of the billions of money given to these displaced arabs, they are still frothing at the mouth and yet the displaced arab jews who didn't receive UN, European, USA or Gulf state aid have managed to set about re-establishing their lives? Think about it. The issue gets to the heart of evolution. Those that fail to adapt to their environment will eventually perish. Israel will adapt, but the Palestinian arabs so far have failed to demonstrate that ability. On the contrary, it is an excellent post. I really don't see how anyone can't see the obvious truth which geriatrickid states above - unless they are on the payroll of some anti-Israel group. Seriously. But, if you genuinely think is it silly, how about posting some details why instead of a one-liner? Edited September 20, 2011 by Scott deleted material edited out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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