Realtor Ethics Question

[Slappz]

Hi everybody,

I have been put in an odd situation and I'm wondering what my options are.

Some background info - I am searching for a house to rent for 1 year in Northern Thailand. I am looking for a larger house 4-5 bedroom with private pool and decided to use the realtor websites and classifieds as a guide to see what's available in the higher end properties.

I view a property through a ad posted on Thaivisa and am very interested in making an offer. The person who wrote the ad claimed to be a freelance realtor when I asked if they had a website.

A few days later I find the exact same property listed on a major realtor's website, and this creates the problem. The house is listed at 2 different prices!

The freelance realtor has it listed 15k baht higher than the other realtor.

So, I want to talk with the owner and make an offer, but am I committed with using the first realtor (who I originally viewed the property with?). I don't want to bargain down a double inflated price just because I originally viewed the property with one realtor. I have a price ceiling already and the price starting point could cause an issue in our negotiating. Something I'd like to avoid obviously. Should i bring up this subject with the owner? With the realtor? With the competition / cheaper realtor?

Any help or guidance would be a huge help. Thank you for reading.

[rgs2001uk]

Welcome to the world of unregulated postings posted by equally unscrupulous posters, its the internet where you can reinvent yourself and claim to be whatever you want to be.

Common sense says you go with your wallet, this freelancer or chancer had no scruples about ripping you off, this would be dressed up as his fee for the 'professional'service he is providing.

Some property owners would be shocked if they were to find out the difference in what their properties are being advertised for, and what these so called professionals tell them their expected rental income could be, no wonder many cant understand how their competivley priced accomodation isnt renting, these bums pass it off as a result of, the global downturn, the lack of tourists or long term renters, no mention of their own unsavoury practices.

Wonder how many sit in some On Nut condo with their (bar) girlfriend translating Thai language rentals advertised either on the web or in local property magazines, then double the price and readvertise elsewhere with farangs as their target audience.

Happy hunting, welcome to the jungle.

[ShopBoy]

Continue to work with him and tell him straight on the price issue and the double listing you know.

15K above the other same listing is ALOT of money. It could be a buffer amount for prospective client to haggle down the amount too.

If it's just verbal agreement on what ever you have with him be prepare to walk away if nothing works out.

I think you should not pay anything higher than the cheaper listing and i am sure you are still able to get a further discount from it.

[PattayaPhom]

This problem is all too common in both the rental and sales market due to the fact that owners will say they want a nett price, therefor agents will need to load the price in order to make a profit......Good agents will stear clear of dodgy owners like this and always explain that prices must be the same accrooss the board. I personally wouldnt want a landlord like this and would stay well away, look for another property.

[StasD]

As for me 99% of realtors are the thieves. I have never used their "help" and I saved a lot of money.

[london]

Continue to work with him and tell him straight on the price issue and the double listing you know.

15K above the other same listing is ALOT of money. It could be a buffer amount for prospective client to haggle down the amount too.

If it's just verbal agreement on what ever you have with him be prepare to walk away if nothing works out.

I think you should not pay anything higher than the cheaper listing and i am sure you are still able to get a further discount from it.

Absolutely the right thing to do.

I wouldn't be concerned about confronting your first contact and just outlining the difference.

You'll get it for the cheaper price....if not even cheaper still.

[Slappz]

If it's just verbal agreement on what ever you have with him be prepare to walk away if nothing works out.

I think you should not pay anything higher than the cheaper listing and i am sure you are still able to get a further discount from it.

Thanks for the responses everyone. It gives me a lot to think about!

My intent from the beginning is to bargain the listing price.

If we assume the two listings are 40k and 55k - I want to offer 30k on the house.

Offering 30k on a 40k house the owner might settle around 35k and I'm happy.

But if the owner thinks I'm offering 30k on 55k that could result in my price becoming 40k, 42k, 45k etc. as a middle compromise.

I don't want to be put at a disadvantage because of the realtor, that seems unfair and I don't want to reward that kind of service either.

[ShopBoy]

Nothing above 40K period.

30K sounds reasonable and stay firm on your offer if the realtor does not work out go straight to the owner and let the owner sort out with the realtor if he wants your business.

He might be watching our discussion here

[rgs2001uk]

The problem with trying to deal with the owner, the agent wont give you the owners details or the owner may well be elsewhere and the house is empty.

OP says 'A few days later I find the exact same property listed on a major realtor's website' This is where the OP should start with his opening bid.

The OP is trying to rent a house, not run a charity supporting unscrupulous estate agents.

[ShopBoy]

OP already says " Should i bring up this subject with the owner? "

[Darrel]

The agent with the higher price may simply be out of date.

Or he may be charging more commission.

Or loading the price upwards in order to be able to drop it more when asked (this is how many agents will hope to close a deal: "look, I've got you 40% off", omitting to point out that the initial asking price was 50% over the odds).

Exactly the same things happen with properties for sale.

Either way, you have no legal obligation to do anything at all with anyone. Just get the best deal you can for yourself, by whatever means possible. Why not make the same offer to both the agents, and see what happens? That is very fair, from your point of view.

Either way, be sure to make it a low offer: asking prices are silly in Thailand.

None of those agents will ever lose any sleep over what happens to you, you can be sure of that.

[PattayaPhom]

The problem with trying to deal with the owner, the agent wont give you the owners details or the owner may well be elsewhere and the house is empty.

OP says 'A few days later I find the exact same property listed on a major realtor's website' This is where the OP should start with his opening bid.

The OP is trying to rent a house, not run a charity supporting unscrupulous estate agents.

If he wants to rent a house and not support agents, maybe he should get out there and do the hunting(gasoline), calling(phone credt) and groundwork timespent) that agents have to do....or does he expect agents to be a charity...... ......many owners specify a 'nett price'.....basically they want an agent to sell/rent their property for free....any decent vendor would be prepared to pay an agent/s for selling/renting their property but they want it done for free...hence price loading........a good agent will never do that and will not list a property where the vendor says 'nett price' so avoiding price discrepencies.

[Rungthip]

Nothing above 40K period.

30K sounds reasonable and stay firm on your offer if the realtor does not work out go straight to the owner and let the owner sort out with the realtor if he wants your business.

He might be watching our discussion here

I am not sure how you can value this house with out even seeing it.....

[ShopBoy]

Nothing above 40K period.

30K sounds reasonable and stay firm on your offer if the realtor does not work out go straight to the owner and let the owner sort out with the realtor if he wants your business.

He might be watching our discussion here

I am not sure how you can value this house with out even seeing it.....

It's just an analysis base on what the OP has said.

He found 2 listing of the same unit one at 55K and the other at 40K, simple analogy which price would you prefer to pay ?

it's also a norm or standard practice in Thailand to haggle down the price from MSRP or Listed Price.

[manarak]

Can't see any problem here.

Personally, I would negotiate with everyone I know offering this house. Search the internet, maybe this house has been offered by more people.

I would perhaps also go to see the house without an agent and try to get the owner's contact details from neighbors or maybe he put his number up already on the house itself.

I would do this before asking an agent to run a visit for me though. I don't like cheating people into working for free for me.

But as long as nobody did any real work for me, there is no reason for "loyalty" - and even then, if they lie to me one time, all bids are off.

And as for the price, I always start at 50% of the original price and see what happens.

I also offer this to people who originally quoted high. Sometimes they can be negociated down lower than the others! LOL.

Edited September 22, 2011 by manarak

[ShopBoy]

Can't see any problem here.

Personally, I would negotiate with everyone I know offering this house.

I would perhaps also go to see it and try to get the owner's contact details from neighbors or maybe he put his number up already on the house itself.

I would do this before asking an agent to run a visit for me though. I don't like cheating people into working for free for me.

But as long as nobody did any real work for me, there is no reason for "loyalty" - and even then, if they lie to me one time, all bids are off.

Agree, Open Offer like open source.

Is this thread so interesting ?

Edited September 22, 2011 by ShopBoy

[Rungthip]

Can't see any problem here.

Personally, I would negotiate with everyone I know offering this house.

I would perhaps also go to see it and try to get the owner's contact details from neighbors or maybe he put his number up already on the house itself.

I would do this before asking an agent to run a visit for me though. I don't like cheating people into working for free for me.

But as long as nobody did any real work for me, there is no reason for "loyalty" - and even then, if they lie to me one time, all bids are off.

Agree, Open Offer like open source.

Is this thread so interesting ?

There is another problem for the owner. If the owner has signed / or has a listing agreement with the agent she is still liable for the commission to the original agent for introducing the perspective rentee.

[ShopBoy]

Can't see any problem here.

Personally, I would negotiate with everyone I know offering this house.

I would perhaps also go to see it and try to get the owner's contact details from neighbors or maybe he put his number up already on the house itself.

I would do this before asking an agent to run a visit for me though. I don't like cheating people into working for free for me.

But as long as nobody did any real work for me, there is no reason for "loyalty" - and even then, if they lie to me one time, all bids are off.

Agree, Open Offer like open source.

Is this thread so interesting ?

There is another problem for the owner. If the owner has signed / or has a listing agreement with the agent she is still liable for the commission to the original agent for introducing the perspective rentee.

Why give the problems or issues of the owner with the agent to the perspective client. Look at post #8, if there is no double standard of listing in the first place there won't be any issues now.

It's the renter's market now, not easy to rent out a piece of 30K property easily IMOHO.

[manarak]

Can't see any problem here.

Personally, I would negotiate with everyone I know offering this house.

I would perhaps also go to see it and try to get the owner's contact details from neighbors or maybe he put his number up already on the house itself.

I would do this before asking an agent to run a visit for me though. I don't like cheating people into working for free for me.

But as long as nobody did any real work for me, there is no reason for "loyalty" - and even then, if they lie to me one time, all bids are off.

Agree, Open Offer like open source.

Is this thread so interesting ?

There is another problem for the owner. If the owner has signed / or has a listing agreement with the agent she is still liable for the commission to the original agent for introducing the perspective rentee.

Well, as long as the agent has not properly introduced the renter to the owner, no fee is due.

I don't think the agent has given the owner's details out yet?

[rgs2001uk]

The problem with trying to deal with the owner, the agent wont give you the owners details or the owner may well be elsewhere and the house is empty.

OP says 'A few days later I find the exact same property listed on a major realtor's website' This is where the OP should start with his opening bid.

The OP is trying to rent a house, not run a charity supporting unscrupulous estate agents.

If he wants to rent a house and not support agents, maybe he should get out there and do the hunting(gasoline), calling(phone credt) and groundwork timespent) that agents have to do....or does he expect agents to be a charity...... ......many owners specify a 'nett price'.....basically they want an agent to sell/rent their property for free....any decent vendor would be prepared to pay an agent/s for selling/renting their property but they want it done for free...hence price loading........a good agent will never do that and will not list a property where the vendor says 'nett price' so avoiding price discrepencies.

Thats exactly what I did, and am now happily renting a house at 1/5 of the price certain agencies charge.

I mentioned in a previous post, if I was so inclined it would be very easy for me to read Thai websites and/or property magazines then readvertise in English speaking sites.

Maybe you should learn to read Thai, might save you having to , 'get out there and do the hunting(gasoline), calling(phone credt) and groundwork timespent)'.

I also mentioned about how many would be shocked at the two different contracts that exist, one from agent to property owner, and the other from agent to renter.

I trust you dont engage in such unsavoury practices.

[PattayaPhom]

The problem with trying to deal with the owner, the agent wont give you the owners details or the owner may well be elsewhere and the house is empty.

OP says 'A few days later I find the exact same property listed on a major realtor's website' This is where the OP should start with his opening bid.

The OP is trying to rent a house, not run a charity supporting unscrupulous estate agents.

If he wants to rent a house and not support agents, maybe he should get out there and do the hunting(gasoline), calling(phone credt) and groundwork timespent) that agents have to do....or does he expect agents to be a charity...... ......many owners specify a 'nett price'.....basically they want an agent to sell/rent their property for free....any decent vendor would be prepared to pay an agent/s for selling/renting their property but they want it done for free...hence price loading........a good agent will never do that and will not list a property where the vendor says 'nett price' so avoiding price discrepencies.

Thats exactly what I did, and am now happily renting a house at 1/5 of the price certain agencies charge.

I mentioned in a previous post, if I was so inclined it would be very easy for me to read Thai websites and/or property magazines then readvertise in English speaking sites.

Maybe you should learn to read Thai, might save you having to , 'get out there and do the hunting(gasoline), calling(phone credt) and groundwork timespent)'.

I also mentioned about how many would be shocked at the two different contracts that exist, one from agent to property owner, and the other from agent to renter.

I trust you dont engage in such unsavoury practices.

Thankyou for confirming my point, best to stay away from vendors that want agents to load their prices.....either do what you did, (although not recommended as you may have problems getting your deposit back, if you had used an agent you would receive in full any deposit paid)..or use an agent that insists rents/values are the same and any commission is paid by the vendor, not loaded for the tenant to pay.

[Slappz]

Update: It appears the agent was trying to up the price, but we chatted with the owner today and got it down 5k below the lowest listed online price. Obviously some research helped our cause.

Unfortunately they are asking for 3-month's security deposit Reason being that the house is brand new. I feel like it's a trap. We asked for 2 but they don't want to budge.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Slappz

[torin]

Most brokers and agents that are licensed will have taken an assortment of classroom subjects including customer service and moral obligations. The worst case offenders tend to be those who claim to be professionals with the proper credentials to call themselves realtors here in Thailand. The problem with this, is there are no licenses for realtors, agents, brokers or otherwise. Any dropkick drunk, ripoff or honest person can call themselves a professional realtor, there are no rules, and no enforcement agency of these rules as non-exist. You dont have to worried of your moral obligations to some guy who showed you the property at twice the price, if so, offer him two beers for his efforts and commission. Then start asking the locals where a house if for rent, they all know of places and will get their well earned 300 baht from your new landlord.