Having A Katoey Gf, How Thai People Will React?

[Ijustwannateach]

hah! hadn't thought of that!

[Ijustwannateach]

It's a pecking order

To do with comparing peckers you mean?

X-Men II [one of the great subversive gay movies]

What? No. Come on.

Though now you come to mention it. I see what you mean.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, its gay allegorical overtones were explicitly one of the main reasons an actor as prominent as Ian McKellan (i.e., Metallo, Gandalf, etc.) was willing to be in a superhero film- he's an activist member of our "family."

[Dickie_Doo]

Ian McKellen is currently playing Widow Twanky in pantomime at the Old Vic, a company run by Oscar-winning, soi disant heterosexualist Kevin Spacey.

"Magneto" not "Metallo" actually.

Edited December 16, 2005 by Dickie_Doo

[Ijustwannateach]

Sorry, all the comic book names in my head just kinda mush together after awhile!

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Moving this to the general forum as it is not really a gay forum-specific topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok help me out with this one Meadish, no personal disrespect intended, but, exsactly what is NOT Gay about 2 men in a sexual relationship were one wears a dress?

[BambinA]

Ok help me out with this one Meadish, no personal disrespect intended, but, exsactly what is NOT Gay about 2 men in a sexual relationship were one wears a dress?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you are as smart as i expect..

well ..i think it no need to explian ..coz u have your own idea..and i think its pretty hard to change it

transsexual = a person who was born as a boy but he does not want to have willy

trans·sex·u·al (trăns-sĕk'shū-əl)

n.

A person with the external genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, but whose personal identification and psychosocial configuration is that of the opposite sex.

A person who has undergone a sex change

.

gay = a person who born as a boy and still satify to have willy

gay

A person whose sexual orientation is to persons of the same sex.

A man whose sexual orientation is to men: an alliance of gays and lesbians.

well ..this is the easiest way to explain a smart guy like you too understand

look at the definition from answer.com ..it different

[BambinA]

wikipedia

Gay

For more details on this topic, see gay.

In this context, gay refers specifically to men with a sexual orientation towards men; and the gay male community, though the term can be used without respect to the gender of the person in question in wider contexts

Transgender

For more details on this topic, see transgender.

Transgender is generally used as a catch-all umbrella term for a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups centered around the full or partial reversal of gender roles as well as physical sexual reassignment therapies (which can be just hormonal or involve various degrees of surgical alteration). A common definition is "People who feel that the gender they were assigned (usually at birth) is a false or incomplete description of themselves". Included in this definition are a number of well known sub-categories such as transsexual and transvestite (see also cross-dressing).

methinks, u'd clean some rust inside your skull..sonax is not that expensive

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Ok help me out with this one Meadish, no personal disrespect intended, but, exsactly what is NOT Gay about 2 men in a sexual relationship were one wears a dress?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you are as smart as i expect..

well ..i think it no need to explian ..coz u have your own idea..and i think its pretty hard to change it

transsexual = a person who was born as a boy but he does not want to have willy

trans·sex·u·al (trăns-sĕk'shū-əl)

n.

A person with the external genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, but whose personal identification and psychosocial configuration is that of the opposite sex.

A person who has undergone a sex change

.

gay = a person who born as a boy and still satify to have willy

gay

A person whose sexual orientation is to persons of the same sex.

A man whose sexual orientation is to men: an alliance of gays and lesbians.

well ..this is the easiest way to explain a smart guy like you too understand

look at the definition from answer.com ..it different

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok so (correct me if I'm wrong please).... for exsampe if 2 men are having sex and they both are happy with being peinus endowed men than it's Gay.

But if one or both of the men feel emotionaly feminine and desire within their heart of hearts to be a woman and not have a peinus than it is not Gay?

and if it' not gay sex than what is it?

[britmaveric]

Well you have a point, but consider this - what do you consider a post op? (this is what the thread was about)

Edited December 16, 2005 by britmaveric

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Brit,

A gay man with extensive cosmetic surgery and hormone therapy. And I am not treying to flame or insult anyone but this is a interesting topic and a difficult question why not ask it?

[Guest endure]

Brit,

A gay man with extensive cosmetic surgery and hormone therapy. And I am not treying to flame or insult anyone but this is a interesting topic and a difficult question why not ask it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Someone who is post-op is no longer a man, they're a woman.

[britmaveric]

Brit,

A gay man with extensive cosmetic surgery and hormone therapy. And I am not treying to flame or insult anyone but this is a interesting topic and a difficult question why not ask it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Faire enough, but I think there are alternative points of view on this matter. If the person was preop I think you might have a legitimate point.

[BambinA]

Brit,

A gay man with extensive cosmetic surgery and hormone therapy. And I am not treying to flame or insult anyone but this is a interesting topic and a difficult question why not ask it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it just like you ask

1+4=5

0+5=5

2+3=5

and u said how diff ...all result = 5

but actually the different thing is number

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Ok Brit and Endure, let me approach this as sensitivly as possible. I have 2 points that validate my line of thinking.

1) Open up a word document right now, type in the word "Man" save it. Then type in the word "woman" now close the document without saving. open it up again and the word "man" will be there. In this case, a man child is born one day he decides to have a sex change operation and all additional medications and hormones that go along with it. He lives this way untill he dies. Take a touch of his blood, clone him and a Man will still be the result.

A word, man, woman, is just that a word (as demonstrated in the word document excersise) and without a doubt subject to interpritation. However you can not change the True gender of humans without having a different person entirely. Just like you can't save the word doc as "woman" without having a new doc entirely.

2) The physical dynamics of a "man made" woman is a insult to real ones, the look, feel, depth, and functionality (or lack there of) should not be compaired to what a "Gods Made" woman is. Now, I have not been intimate with a "man made" woman but I know a number of them and their lovers I have seen them intemently close up and I support my statement on what I have seen personaly and what I have heard from thouse that are there.

Thoughts?

[britmaveric]

What differentiates a man and a woman? The obvious answer is child birth. Other than that there really isn't much difference apart from the bits/bobs.

From what I gather Thailand is renowned for their sex change operations and one would be hard pressed knowing the difference.

[SK1972]

Your happiness is what counts. If they don't like it, too bad! They are not paying your way in life. If your friends cannot accept it although you are happy......you still call them friends?

A lot of people accept homosexuals now.....so why not "transexuals"? Men are scared of them because it makes them insecure about their sexuality (?) and women see them as competition (?).

I wouldn't bother what others would think.........not their life, not their money and not their business.

Good luck.

Edited December 16, 2005 by SK1972

[Guest endure]

Ok Brit and Endure, let me approach this as sensitivly as possible. I have 2 points that validate my line of thinking.

1) Open up a word document right now, type in the word "Man" save it. Then type in the word "woman" now close the document without saving. open it up again and the word "man" will be there. In this case, a man child is born one day he decides to have a sex change operation and all additional medications and hormones that go along with it. He lives this way untill he dies. Take a touch of his blood, clone him and a Man will still be the result.

A word, man, woman, is just that a word (as demonstrated in the word document excersise) and without a doubt subject to interpritation. However you can not change the True gender of humans without having a different person entirely. Just like you can't save the word doc as "woman" without having a new doc entirely.

2) The physical dynamics of a "man made" woman is a insult to real ones, the look, feel, depth, and functionality (or lack there of) should not be compaired to what a "Gods Made" woman is. Now, I have not been intimate with a "man made" woman but I know a number of them and their lovers I have seen them intemently close up and I support my statement on what I have seen personaly and what I have heard from thouse that are there.

Thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not quite sure I understand much of your first point other than to say that a post-op transexual IS a different person entirely. That's the whole point.

As far as point 2 is concerned I think your remarks are a bit of an insult to transexuals. Comparing them to 'real' women seems to me to be irrelevant. I couldn't begin to understand the suffering necessary for a male person to consign themselves to drugs and the knife which would not only change them so completely but open them up to public ridicule and contempt. Whatever it is it must be immensely powerful and much more than a simple desire to have ladies bits down their knickers.

[Guest endure]

Ok so (correct me if I'm wrong please).... for exsampe if 2 men are having sex and they both are happy with being peinus endowed men than it's Gay.

But if one or both of the men feel emotionaly feminine and desire within their heart of hearts to be a woman and not have a peinus than it is not Gay?

      and if it' not gay sex than what is it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're missing the point. Pre-op transexuals aren't gay. If they were gay they wouldn't have the operation because, post-op, by definition they are no longer attractive to gay men. They're looking for relationships with straight men, not gay men.

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Well Endure, In point 1. that you didn't quite get I was referring to physical aspects only, not personality preferences. There are people inside who believe they are entirely different people than what they where born as and what they are. Say people with Multiple Personality Disorder for example. Just because someone truly and honestly feels like a War Decorated Army General doesn’t mean he should get a purple heart every time he scuffs himself trying to get out of his straight jacket.

Bottom line, you are what you are. We are all born with a set potential and a well lived life is one were in we strive to meet that potential. However some things just are not in the mix. Discounting the natural effect of sex hormones and supposing you can be mentally “born” a gender other than what you are, A woman born a man will never be a man, she will always be a woman with cosmetic alterations, and vise versa.

Why not just call a spade a spade. Just say you’re a feminine gay man who wants to live the life of a woman. But don’t insult woman by saying you are one. You may feel like how you THINK one feels on the inside but at the end of the day you’re a man with surgery and hormone supplements.

Just like Michael Jackson, he can have all the nose slicing, skin whitening, cheek distorting alterations he wants, unless he is really a alien pod person (which may be true LOL) poke a hole in him, drain a lil blood and clone him and you will have a nappy headed lil black baby with a wide nose an bad acne.

And as the world is neigh to let him forget, he can feel like a child inside of a man’s body all he like…but at the end of the day Peter Pan he is not.

Oh and that last line about gay men not being attracted to straight men is total crap. A lot of gay men see straight men as sort of a challenge and a conquest much in the same was as many Hetro men see Lesbians.

[Guest endure]

As you either didn't read or misread practically everything I said there doesn't seem to be much point in carrying on the conversation

[Ijustwannateach]

Transsexuals "insult" women???

Would any women here on the forum who feel insulted by transsexuals please speak up?

"A lot" of gay men think straight men are a good challenge?

You must frequent different gay establishments than I. This isn't something I hear very often from the hundreds of gay men in my acquaintance.

Most partners of postop transsexuals that *I* know are very straight-identified, and have never dated a gay man. I know very few confirmed gays who would want to date a male-to-female transsexual- for the quite obvious reason that gay men are attracted to *men*.

But Endure's probably right, so that's all I'll say for now.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

In this day of incredibly complex plastic surgery, you can even have your face replaced by another person's face (happened this year). When a person has their penis intentionally chopped off, their testicles removed, a vagina created, and takes hormones to have women's breasts, that person is doing everything possible to NOT be a man. She's a woman, regardless of what the bureaucrats down at the ID section say. She has intercourse like a woman, as a woman. The only difference that matters, is that she can't have babies. Well, lots of females who never had surgery, can't have babies. Lots of women who could have babies, had surgery to prevent pregnancies ever again. A woman is a woman who looks and behaves like a woman.

Lots of us have interesting prior histories. I'm a gay man with six children. In the present tense, I am gay.

[Pudgimelon]

Why not just call a spade a spade.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make some valid points, though in a way that is probably going to stir some people up (welcome to the club! ).

However, its not quite as simple as you claim. Gender dysphoria may be a psychiatric disorder, but psyandrogen insensitivity syndrome and congenital adrenal hyperplasia are not. Both of those are caused by genetic mutations and not a "cosmetic alteration" as you put it. People with those conditions can often be as much male as they are female.

And even if gender dysphoria is "all in their head", since when does that invalidate it? "The United States of America", "society", "love", and other abstract concepts are "all in our heads" too, but would you dispute their "reality" simply because they do not have a physical manifestation within our bodies??

What that means is that there is a sizeable gray area between "male" and "female" and it's not as simple as "prick him and he doth bleedeth as a man".

That's not to mention the fact that ALL humans are non-gendered for the first few months of their lives (in the womb). So at one point in your life, not even you were a male. You had the genetic coding to become, but other than that, there was absolutely nothing to distinguish you from a fetus that would become female.

However, you are absolutely right, a spade is a spade and there definitely are very well-defined genders. You'll never hear me say that "male" and "female" are just labels that can be peeled off and switched. A man is a man and a woman is a woman, period. So how can there be "well-defined" genders and still a "sizeable gray area at the same time? Well, that's just the way the universe was built. It's a weird place.

Just think of it as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, but applied to gender.

On another point, you and several others have made the comments that calling a "transgendered" person a "woman", is an "insult to real woman". I beg to differ, transgenders actually pay women a pretty high compliment. Being transgendered is a hard life, and so for someone to chose a life of public humilation, self-mutilation, familial detactment, and relationship discordance just to be a woman.... well, that must mean being a woman is a pretty special, wonderful, and worthwhile thing to be.

That said, I personally disagree with cosmetic surgery, sexual realignment surgery and hormonal therapy. All of those are questionable ethically from a medical standpoint and more importantly can play havoc on the health of transgendered individuals. Sexual realignment surgery, after all, is nothing more or less than an amputation, and I personally don't see how the whole self-multation as a path to "happiness" thing works out. It's been my experience that it rarely does. Every friend I've had who's gone down that path has regretted it to some degree (though many times they won't even admit that to themselves).

What you all are getting hung up on are the labels. You said they should call themselves "feminine gay men", others say they should be called transsexuals, or transgenders, or transvestites, or cross-dressers, or ladyboys or whatever....

There is no denying that there is a lot of power in words, and labels are very important to some people (if you don't believe me, call a black man "boy" or "n__" and see how he responds). And there's no denying that transgendered people (and those discussing them) have their own personal favorite label and that they get all bent out of shape when someone applies the wrong label to them.

What's really at stake here is not a label or a gender (by the way, there is no need to "protect" the female gender from infiltrators. i'm quite sure that women will always be women, no matter how many men make the switch ). What is at stake here is the personal freedom to chose your own label, rather than have it assigned to you.

Richard Pyror proved that when he usurped the word "n__" and made it his own. By choosing to assign that label to himself, he took the power out of the hands of those who would use it to put him down, and instead used it as a tool to lift himself up. That was part of his genius and every rapper out there is in his debt.

Likewise, if a gender dysphoric person wants to label themselves in a particular way or assign themselves a particular gender (in their minds and socially), they don't do it to "insult" a particular gender, and so therefore no insult should be taken. They do it to empower themselves and wrest control of their own lives. They don't want society or even biology to tell them who they should be.

That is a powerful personal struggle and one that should be supported in a healthy way whenever possible. As long as people are choosing labels for themselves that THEY find uplifting and positive, then what's the harm? I say, let them do it and quit making such a big fuss about it.

Does it really matter in the end if someone wants to call themselves a woman even if they are "really" a man? No, it doesn't. As long as they are honest and open about it with their friends, family and partners, there should be no complaint from anyone.

Some of my best friends and coworkers back in the States are transgendered. I've seen first-hand how difficult their life can be and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. They struggle daily to live a "normal" life and so if they can find strength and comfort from a label that's not biologically accurate, then I say, "Sure. Why not?"

We all tell ourselves little lies (or big lies) to get through the day sometimes (who here hasn't bought a pair of pants one size smaller than you should have because you just can't bear to admit that you've added yet another inch to your waistline).

So if it makes you feel better about yourself to say that these people are "lying to themselves", that's fine. Just do them a small courtesy and don't burst their bubble.

After all the truth is often impolite and "brutal honesty" is often just brutal.

Edited December 17, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[Fast Eddie]

Good post Pudgi

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Great post Pudgi, though there are a number of things I disagree with or feel as though you misinterpeted my meaning. However I don't have the time right at this moment to put togeter the well thought out articulate rebuttal that your post deserves. Look for it tommorow if ya would. And thanks!

[otherstuff1957]

I view it as a matter of simple courtesy. If a transgendered person wants to be referred to as she, why not do so? It won't hurt you or cost you anything and it makes them feel much better about themselves.

[BambinA]

well said Pudgy

[oopapasan]

@PeaceBlondie ,well said

@taxexile , good story

Sexual confusion and disorientation.

Guys ask me for advice. "I met this transsexual woman at a club and I am really attracted to her but I am concerned that it means I am gay or something. Am I?"

Some careful dialogue with the guy usually uncovers the fact that he was very attracted to the TS's femininity. Her look, her voice, her movement, her laugh, her smile, her scent, and all those other feminine cues that trigger interest and a masculine response from a guy. Gay guys are not attracted to those attributes.

Therefore, if a straight man finds himself interested in a pre-op transsexual and is experiencing  some confusion as a result, then he needs to consider exactly what it is about her that is attracting him. If it's her femininity, then he's not responding like a gay man would, and thus shouldn't worry about whether he's "turning gay." If the guy can accept that he is attracted to a somewhat different kind of woman and still wants to pursue it, take it just one step at a time.

Take her out to dinner or a movie. Talk to her about whatever, listen to her words. Look into her eyes. Can he get lost in her eyes, as he can with a GG? Can he relax around her and just enjoy being with her, as if she were a GG? If so, take one more step. Hold hands, kiss her good-night. In other words, treat her like he would any GG date, at a pace that he can handle, given his concerns. Easy!

FROM tsgirlfriend.com

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They had a movie about the operation Asian experiance or something like that the tourists found it interesting

[chanchao]

So.. suppose a friend of mine once had a little too much to drink and then had sex with a transgendered individual, would that be gay?

Cheers,

Chanchao

[tom yum goong]

wouldn't that depend on whether your "friend" was a man or a woman, and whether the individual he/she had sex with was a transgendered man or woman?