Cesar Millan - Dog Whisperer

[Bkkorupcountry]

Hi all,

I was wondering if fellow posters here watch The Dog Whisperer program (Cesar Millan) and what you think of his methods.

Some critics say that he is basically instilling fear into the dogs (not such a bad thing if a dog is overly aggressive) but I see a very balanced pack in his shows.

Any comments?

p/s: this is about dog behaviour (psychology), not training

[F1fanatic]

I too, watch his programmes and cannot see why anyone would think he is using fear as a training method - quite the opposite.

I had problems with my dogs but, after watching his programmes, I'm learning how to become 'pack leader' and am v happy to say that even my most determined dog now accepts me as such.

Its not a quick fix and fear is definitely not part of it, just making it obvious that we are in control.

I still have a few problems, but NOTHING like the way they used to completely ignore me unless they had nothing better to do !

I look back at my first dog that died before we left the UK and am mortified at how badly I let him down . It is now obvious why he was so neurotic/aggressive....

[fvw53]

very interesting program : the dog world with its "pack leaders" seems to be like politics with its "influential people"

[Bkkorupcountry]

very interesting program : the dog world with its "pack leaders" seems to be like politics with its "influential people"

With one difference. He said on one program, "the human species is the only species that chooses unstable people as their pack leaders"

[cmsally]

I had a bit of a "Cesar Millan" moment in a temple the other evening. Luckily survived without a scratch, or bite, should I say.

[Bkkorupcountry]

I had a bit of a "Cesar Millan" moment in a temple the other evening. Luckily survived without a scratch, or bite, should I say.

You stayed calm and assertive? If that was the key, well done!!

[bangkaew]

I am a fan and I think his rules boundaries and limitations and to be calm assertive is excellent. Also the no talk no touch and no eye contact is great advice for meeting nervous dogs - have you noticed how the thais do that? Most or a lot of dog trainers say he kicks - when he nudges, and that the touch hurts them. I think they misunderstand him personally and/or probably jealous! I am on a dog forum and everyone slates Cesar but when someone asks for advice they never give an alternative.

[bkkjames]

I find the guy annoying as hell, don't know whether to yell @ him or the dog.

Give me robert redford anytime.

[bangkaew]

I find the guy annoying as hell, don't know whether to yell @ him or the dog.

Give me robert redford anytime.

Robert Redford?

[bkkjames]

Horse whisperer google it

Edited September 30, 2011 by bkkjames

[rixalex]

Nice teeth.

I used his methods before i watched his show. Always been firm with my dogs. Drives me crazy seeing people treating dogs like people. They are the cruel ones, but they think that is what the dog wants/needs. Watching Cesar should be a requirement by law for those wanting a dog as a pet. Would be a lot more happier, healthier dogs in the world.

[outofoz]

I like how the guys handles his dogs. You only have to look at that huge pack of dogs he has to see he does something right.

Perhaps some people dont like that he treats the dogs like actual dogs. I am bewildered at how many people treat their dogs like surrogate children.

I've never seen any cruelty or heavy handedness on his part.

[cmsally]

The first time I saw his show I was surprised there was so much fuss about it. My Granddad taught me how to handle dogs and used pretty much the same methods, it seems pretty much common sense.

[geriatrickid]

I was always puzzled by how he was able to get results. His methods on the whole go against what animal behaviour studies have shown. We were discussing this at a BBQ one night and one of my film industry friends pointed out that the shows are edited. One only sees the success, not the multiple "fails". This friend has worked onset with animal wranglers and his view is that none of the wranglers use this guy's methods. Instead, they rely on the praise and reward system and understand that animals have limited attention spans. I find that many of Cesar's methods are simplistic when presented on the show. One never sees the set up or the activity before the perfect moments, or what happens a week later. I also recgnize that Cesar is dealing with some very stupid humans sometimes and he has to tailor his methods to something that the humans can understand and follow. In any case, Cesar's methods wouldn't work with my friend. He'd just stick his tail up and walk away, but then he's a cat and he is better than a dog.

[rixalex]

In any case, Cesar's methods wouldn't work with my friend. He'd just stick his tail up and walk away, but then he's a cat and he is better than a dog.

You see him as a friend. He sees you as a personal assistant. Fickle creatures that humans delude themselves into believing they bond with. Man's worst friend.

[shepsel]

I would love to see all the clips that are edited out of the program when the dogs are not behaving the way he wants them to. I think it would make an excellent spin off program.

[bangkaew]

Horse whisperer google it

Yes I remembered that movie after. I do not remember him doing much though apart from literally whispering in the horse's ear!

[bangkaew]

Nice teeth.

I used his methods before i watched his show. Always been firm with my dogs. Drives me crazy seeing people treating dogs like people. They are the cruel ones, but they think that is what the dog wants/needs. Watching Cesar should be a requirement by law for those wanting a dog as a pet. Would be a lot more happier, healthier dogs in the world.

I agree. Give my BK an inch he will take a mile. That is not to say you have to hit them or be mean, just insist they know that you and not they are the boss. The PC crowd say that with a manipulative dog then - let the dog manipulate you for food and in the process get him to do what you want. But my dogs know if I have food or not and they only actually do something you say if you actually have something they want - apart from come when called which they do because they think the pack needs them! Saying that if you want to carry treats with you everywhere you go then that works extremely well. Different strokes for different folks.

[doggie888888]

Never heard of him until 3 or 4 years ago when I commented to my neighbour how well behaved her dogs were. Then when I got my new pup, she gave me a present in the form of the book version of The Dog Whisperer. I read it and found it quite logical so I applied the crate method, the "claw", rewarded the calm-submissive state etc etc. Really, I can't have a better dog. It's not yappy, it behaves well most times, I can take it anywhere and it is the calmest dog I have ever owned!!! I never felt I was being cruel or causing pain at anytime. And as they say, let the result speak for itself!

[bangkaew]

I was always puzzled by how he was able to get results. His methods on the whole go against what animal behaviour studies have shown. We were discussing this at a BBQ one night and one of my film industry friends pointed out that the shows are edited. One only sees the success, not the multiple "fails". This friend has worked onset with animal wranglers and his view is that none of the wranglers use this guy's methods. Instead, they rely on the praise and reward system and understand that animals have limited attention spans. I find that many of Cesar's methods are simplistic when presented on the show. One never sees the set up or the activity before the perfect moments, or what happens a week later. I also recgnize that Cesar is dealing with some very stupid humans sometimes and he has to tailor his methods to something that the humans can understand and follow. In any case, Cesar's methods wouldn't work with my friend. He'd just stick his tail up and walk away, but then he's a cat and he is better than a dog.

His methods do not work for getting a dog to do a trick so praise and reward is best for training. His approach is only there for letting the dog know they are not allowed to do something - essentially having a, to some people, untrained dog - like the dogs owned by the thais, all they know is what they are not allowed to do. His approach is for the foundation and then praise and reward can be used to train.

[cmsally]

When I was on my way to a funeral the other night, I was a bit late so had brain disengaged. I got out of my car in the midst of a massive dog fight, about 15 dogs. I made a few suitable noises and they all disengaged and ran away. I was a little surprised about that, normally when dogs have each by the throat it is not so easy. Then just as I was congratulating myself the pack leader literally walks right up to me and stands there about 1 inch from my leg. At first I thought he was the friendly one but uh oh no wagging tail. This was basically a test, and most of the other dogs start circling. They are just waiting for the call which is for him to have a go at me and then they all get stuck in. So I had no other choice but to stand there refusing to back off. At this stage a Thai man sees, he's a way off and starts jumping up and down screaming "lawang maa, maa gat". I'm thinking "great help, not".

So me and the dog stand there doing a little territory claiming, his number 2 dog is trying to get closer but is scared away by eye contact. After a few minutes he works out there is better stuff to deal with and just suddenly takes off, all his buddies in tow.

That to me is pretty much common sense but not an easy thing to do. The only thing that kept me there was having a pretty clear understanding of what would happen if I moved.

[rixalex]

When I was on my way to a funeral the other night, I was a bit late so had brain disengaged. I got out of my car in the midst of a massive dog fight, about 15 dogs. I made a few suitable noises and they all disengaged and ran away. I was a little surprised about that, normally when dogs have each by the throat it is not so easy. Then just as I was congratulating myself the pack leader literally walks right up to me and stands there about 1 inch from my leg. At first I thought he was the friendly one but uh oh no wagging tail. This was basically a test, and most of the other dogs start circling. They are just waiting for the call which is for him to have a go at me and then they all get stuck in. So I had no other choice but to stand there refusing to back off. At this stage a Thai man sees, he's a way off and starts jumping up and down screaming "lawang maa, maa gat". I'm thinking "great help, not".

So me and the dog stand there doing a little territory claiming, his number 2 dog is trying to get closer but is scared away by eye contact. After a few minutes he works out there is better stuff to deal with and just suddenly takes off, all his buddies in tow.

That to me is pretty much common sense but not an easy thing to do. The only thing that kept me there was having a pretty clear understanding of what would happen if I moved.

Very well played. Must have taken a lot of nerve to stand him out. Hope you had a change of underwear with you.

[cmsally]

Actually I was really in a foul mood at the time and am not to be messed with at such times, even if its by 15 marauding ferocious dogs.

[WarpSpeed]

Yes he uses fear!! He scares the hell out of the ignorant dog owners who are clueless about dogs. But seriously I've trained many a dog with the same methods he employs well before I knew of him and it is absolutely the best way to train. His show does a great service to training the owners which is 95% of the problem most of the time not the dogs..

As adept at training animals as I am I still learn quite a bit from his show and only took a recent interest in it over the last several months. I think it's best for my children though as they will learn how to properly handle and train a dog before we get one when we get back home as it reinforces what daddy has been telling them..

I admire his ability to go right into situations with aggressive dogs in particular being a total stranger and taking immediate control without an ounce of hesitation or fear it's really quite impressive.

I've been bitten a few times, my first time when I was very young and it left quite an indelible memory on me as it was quite serious so there is often a bit of hesitation and second thought I have to deal with in similar situations..

[somtampet]

Nice teeth.

I used his methods before i watched his show. Always been firm with my dogs. Drives me crazy seeing people treating dogs like people. They are the cruel ones, but they think that is what the dog wants/needs. Watching Cesar should be a requirement by law for those wanting a dog as a pet. Would be a lot more happier, healthier dogs in the world.

I agree with u,

most owners havent a clue how to look after dogs,and dont even excersise the poor things.The worst dogs are small dogs because the owners treat them like babies,but have to admit,the bite isnt as bad as a big dog.I used to own an alsation and a doberman,and both walked either side of my legs,and wouldnt move from me,even for a cat.

[Nienke]

I go with Geriatrickid's film industry friend.

CM still bases his training and/or rehabilitation of dogs on the the old believe that dogs are motivated to achieve a higher ‘status’ relative to other dogs or people, and that this desire lead them to show behaviors such as aggression in order to achieve control (dominance theory).

Over the last 3 decennia behavioral research and clinical behavior practice, show that the foundations on which this theory is based are fundamentally flawed, and as a result many trainers and behaviorists have changed their training and behavior modification.

There is now also a much better understanding of how the brain works, how dogs learn, and how they talk, which provides a better understanding of why behaviors such as aggression develop in dogs, and how to solve these problematic beahviors.

In the following clip Dr. L. David Mech talks about

CM's alpha roll is NOT how it occurs in the wild and between dogs:

In his shows CM is talking about making the dog calm and relax by forcing the dog on the side. However, these dogs aren't calm and relaxed, instead they are tense and shut down (learned helplessness). The underlying motivation for the aggression has been suppressed, not changed, plus that in the dog's mind CM's and later (maybe) the owner's behavior has become confusing and unpredictable. This can be very dangerous for the owners if they are copying CM's alpha roll. And there ARE doctor's reports of people being bitten by their dog after they were trying to copy CM's alpha roll.

I know that there is this label on the each of the shows saying something like "do not try this at home". But people are people and they will copy.

Being calm and assertive? Yes, absolutely! I don't think it is this common sense that many dog trainer and/or behaviorists debate.

Most unruly dogs are like that because they are confused by the signals the owner/s gives to them. Voice often says something different from the accompanying body language, and dogs' language consist for the major part of body language.

Suddenly poking fingers towards a dog in order to make him stop doing whatever he was doing or redirect his attention? It may help on the short run, but if the behavior repeats itself, the underlying motivation of the dog has not changed and the (undesired) behavior is still there. Also, many dogs react with fear to that. Fear is something different than submission. Why not redirecting the dog's attention in a for-the-dog nicer and understandable way? And again, by instilling fear, the underlying motivation of the dog for (over) reacting will not be changed. It may be suppressed at the most.

Many behavioral studies have shown that by redirecting a dog's attention and through desensitization and counter-condition, the underlying motivation can be changed resulting in a much reliable desired behavior of the dog, which is much safer for the people, dogs and other animals around.

CM does not kick the dogs? When I look at the reaction of the dogs (their body language, the way they communicate their feelings) I see something different: abdominal kicks

Unfortunately, CM is often missing out on or misinterpreting the stress and calming signals many dogs give. Calming signals are a very important part of a dog's language.

Calming signals has three functions: the dog attempts to reduce the stress in itself, the dog attempts to calm others - people - animals - or objects; the dog uses them as a means of social greeting, to indicate to another that it comes as a friend.

By monitoring the dog's level of stress, reacting to the dog's calming signals and using these signals yourself, many aggressive displays in the dog can be prevented.

Problematic behaviors, such as aggression, develop because the dog learns to show a (for him) effective response to what he feels is a threat.

Applying punishment will often result in more anxiety in the dog. It will not achieve the aim of making the dog less worried about whatever it is reacting to: in fact it will almost inevitably make it more fearful in that context.

Research has shown that there is a complex relationship between physiological stress responses and learning ability. While mild stress tends to enhance learning, higher or more chronic levels of stress actually inhibit the ability of dogs to learn, and particularly to consolidate and retrieve memories. Therefore, applying punishment in an already highly aroused/stressed dog may slow down and sometimes even shut down the learning ability in the dog at that particular period of time.

CM normally puts the dog into an environment in which the dog will react. When a dog is in a situation where the sympathetic nervous system is engaged (fight or flight), the digestive system shuts down to divert all energy to the muscles for survival. It is known as the dog being over-threshold, and as a result its learning ability slows down or the dog will be unable to learn at all.

CM uses chokers a lot and sometimes prong- and e-collars. Chokers and prong collars can result in laryngeal, esophageal, thyroidal, and tracheal damage.

But it's not only the way these devices are used that I object to, it's the psychological stress that these dogs are placed under so often. During the shows many dogs that are actually offering avoidance behaviors are often pushed to the point of aggression. This can, for example, clearly be observed in the above mentioned clip about the 'abdominal kicks'. The aggressive display often occurs AFTER CM's kick in the abdomen.

[rixalex]

Nice teeth.

I used his methods before i watched his show. Always been firm with my dogs. Drives me crazy seeing people treating dogs like people. They are the cruel ones, but they think that is what the dog wants/needs. Watching Cesar should be a requirement by law for those wanting a dog as a pet. Would be a lot more happier, healthier dogs in the world.

I agree with u,

most owners havent a clue how to look after dogs,and dont even excersise the poor things.

Indeed. Have you ever met a Thai who regularly puts their dog on a lead and takes them for a walk? I never have. When the dogs get stir crazy, some owners just open their front gates and let them walk themselves, which means crap in the streets and a danger to people walking in them.

[F1fanatic]

I go with Geriatrickid's film industry friend.

CM still bases his training and/or rehabilitation of dogs on the the old believe that dogs are motivated to achieve a higher 'status' relative to other dogs or people, and that this desire lead them to show behaviors such as aggression in order to achieve control (dominance theory).

Over the last 3 decennia behavioral research and clinical behavior practice, show that the foundations on which this theory is based are fundamentally flawed, and as a result many trainers and behaviorists have changed their training and behavior modification.

There is now also a much better understanding of how the brain works, how dogs learn, and how they talk, which provides a better understanding of why behaviors such as aggression develop in dogs, and how to solve these problematic beahviors.

In the following clip Dr. L. David Mech talks about

CM's alpha roll is NOT how it occurs in the wild and between dogs:

In his shows CM is talking about making the dog calm and relax by forcing the dog on the side. However, these dogs aren't calm and relaxed, instead they are tense and shut down (learned helplessness). The underlying motivation for the aggression has been suppressed, not changed, plus that in the dog's mind CM's and later (maybe) the owner's behavior has become confusing and unpredictable. This can be very dangerous for the owners if they are copying CM's alpha roll. And there ARE doctor's reports of people being bitten by their dog after they were trying to copy CM's alpha roll.

I know that there is this label on the each of the shows saying something like "do not try this at home". But people are people and they will copy.

Being calm and assertive? Yes, absolutely! I don't think it is this common sense that many dog trainer and/or behaviorists debate.

Most unruly dogs are like that because they are confused by the signals the owner/s gives to them. Voice often says something different from the accompanying body language, and dogs' language consist for the major part of body language.

Suddenly poking fingers towards a dog in order to make him stop doing whatever he was doing or redirect his attention? It may help on the short run, but if the behavior repeats itself, the underlying motivation of the dog has not changed and the (undesired) behavior is still there. Also, many dogs react with fear to that. Fear is something different than submission. Why not redirecting the dog's attention in a for-the-dog nicer and understandable way? And again, by instilling fear, the underlying motivation of the dog for (over) reacting will not be changed. It may be suppressed at the most.

Many behavioral studies have shown that by redirecting a dog's attention and through desensitization and counter-condition, the underlying motivation can be changed resulting in a much reliable desired behavior of the dog, which is much safer for the people, dogs and other animals around.

CM does not kick the dogs? When I look at the reaction of the dogs (their body language, the way they communicate their feelings) I see something different: abdominal kicks

Unfortunately, CM is often missing out on or misinterpreting the stress and calming signals many dogs give. Calming signals are a very important part of a dog's language.

Calming signals has three functions: the dog attempts to reduce the stress in itself, the dog attempts to calm others - people - animals - or objects; the dog uses them as a means of social greeting, to indicate to another that it comes as a friend.

By monitoring the dog's level of stress, reacting to the dog's calming signals and using these signals yourself, many aggressive displays in the dog can be prevented.

Problematic behaviors, such as aggression, develop because the dog learns to show a (for him) effective response to what he feels is a threat.

Applying punishment will often result in more anxiety in the dog. It will not achieve the aim of making the dog less worried about whatever it is reacting to: in fact it will almost inevitably make it more fearful in that context.

Research has shown that there is a complex relationship between physiological stress responses and learning ability. While mild stress tends to enhance learning, higher or more chronic levels of stress actually inhibit the ability of dogs to learn, and particularly to consolidate and retrieve memories. Therefore, applying punishment in an already highly aroused/stressed dog may slow down and sometimes even shut down the learning ability in the dog at that particular period of time.

CM normally puts the dog into an environment in which the dog will react. When a dog is in a situation where the sympathetic nervous system is engaged (fight or flight), the digestive system shuts down to divert all energy to the muscles for survival. It is known as the dog being over-threshold, and as a result its learning ability slows down or the dog will be unable to learn at all.

CM uses chokers a lot and sometimes prong- and e-collars. Chokers and prong collars can result in laryngeal, esophageal, thyroidal, and tracheal damage.

But it's not only the way these devices are used that I object to, it's the psychological stress that these dogs are placed under so often. During the shows many dogs that are actually offering avoidance behaviors are often pushed to the point of aggression. This can, for example, clearly be observed in the above mentioned clip about the 'abdominal kicks'. The aggressive display often occurs AFTER CM's kick in the abdomen.

Sorry to be so coarse, but rubbish!

I adopted his 'calm, assertive' approach once I discovered his programmes and found it works. DEFINITELY not fear-based as I love my dogs and they sleep on the bed with me at night - they have no fear of me at all, but understand I am 'pack leader'. THAT is what CM is preaching and others pretending that his programmes are edited to not show how he inculcates fear in the dog is annoying as his method works.

[rixalex]

Sorry to be so coarse, but rubbish!

I adopted his 'calm, assertive' approach once I discovered his programmes and found it works. DEFINITELY not fear-based as I love my dogs and they sleep on the bed with me at night - they have no fear of me at all, but understand I am 'pack leader'. THAT is what CM is preaching and others pretending that his programmes are edited to not show how he inculcates fear in the dog is annoying as his method works.

Just as an aside, i've never understood why people would want to sleep with their dogs. Use all the Frontline in the world, and check them daily, they'll still get ticks and other mites in their fur. Why not have them sleep on the floor beside the bed. More hygienic and might help with whole pack leader thing.

[F1fanatic]

When I was on my way to a funeral the other night, I was a bit late so had brain disengaged. I got out of my car in the midst of a massive dog fight, about 15 dogs. I made a few suitable noises and they all disengaged and ran away. I was a little surprised about that, normally when dogs have each by the throat it is not so easy. Then just as I was congratulating myself the pack leader literally walks right up to me and stands there about 1 inch from my leg. At first I thought he was the friendly one but uh oh no wagging tail. This was basically a test, and most of the other dogs start circling. They are just waiting for the call which is for him to have a go at me and then they all get stuck in. So I had no other choice but to stand there refusing to back off. At this stage a Thai man sees, he's a way off and starts jumping up and down screaming "lawang maa, maa gat". I'm thinking "great help, not".

So me and the dog stand there doing a little territory claiming, his number 2 dog is trying to get closer but is scared away by eye contact. After a few minutes he works out there is better stuff to deal with and just suddenly takes off, all his buddies in tow.

That to me is pretty much common sense but not an easy thing to do. The only thing that kept me there was having a pretty clear understanding of what would happen if I moved.

Reminds me of something that happened to me a couple of years ago. I was walking my dogs on the beach when I saw a golden retriever type dog ahead. Knowing my whippet is stupid and barks madly at all other dogs (even though he's a complete coward and would never actually bite another dog), I got all my dogs on their leads as unfortunately his barking used to 'set off' the others into pack mode....

Much to my suprise the golden retriever type dog attacked my dogs, so I pulled them behind me, shouted and hit the sand with the end of the leads. I wasn't at all frightened, just a bit suprised.

Amazingly, the dog jumped up at me and bit me a few times! It wasn't serious, he hardly broke my skin - he was just telling me to back-off so that he could get at my dogs!

There were a few Thais around (one must have been the owner) but they were scared and did nothing....

Even after he 'attacked' me I was more suprised than frightened and can remember saying "the bastard bit me!".

I didn't give way 'cos I wasn't frightened and was only concerned with making sure he couldn't get at my dogs. Fortunately the owner finally found a branch and drove the dog away so that we could continue .