Living In Thailand Working Online For Overseas Work Permit?

[IMA_FARANG]

@Tatsujin - If I do SEO for a Brazilian company who pay me offshore, why do I need a work permit for that?

If I do SEO for a Thai company yes I need a work permit as I do a job that a Thai (maybe ) also can do - that's why we have work permits, to control who can work and not!

I agree with everybody that you work so you need a work permit but how it that related to Internet?

I can work in a hotel room on Koh Samui, in a guesthouse in Manilla or in a Internet cafe in New York, does this that I need three work permits, pay tax in three countries etc etc?

In theory maybe yes but how do you want to make this work?

Cloggie

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If I do SEO for a Brazilian company who pay me offshore, why do I need a work permit for that?

Personaly I would agree. But the Thai authorities may argue that the actual effort you made is:

1. By their defination work.

2. The work took place at a pysical location...which was clearly in Thailand.

3. And therefore your work took place in Thailand, requires a Thai Work Permit, and if it is done for compensation or profit you are possibly subject to pay Thai income tax on that compensation or profit you earned.

I personally think that is wrong...but the Thai tax people won't.

And don't imagine they "can't find out". I, myself, have used a computer program that monitors my current location whenever I'm online...and from the IP address of my computer...can tell exactly where that computer is physically located at that time.

If I, as a computer novice can find and use such a search program, then be sure that the Thai authorities can also do it.

The only reason they don't do such things on a regular basis is that it isn't worth the trouble for them.

Now, if you do deals routinely from your hotel room in let's just say Phuket, that earn you profits of 300 million Baht, it might be worthwhile for the Thai authorities to trace and document that fact.

For the potential Thai tax revenue...if nothing else.

Don't fool yourself, the technology is available and as a short trip to Pantip Plaza will reveal there are Thais who know how to use that technology. If it's worth their time and profitable enough.

[Soutpeel]

Yes, to all the above, they are all (as defined by Thai law) "work".

I'm not saying any of this is 'right', I'd love for it to change and for it to be easier for everyone to live and work here. But the law is the law and it's up to us to try to adhere to it and follow it as best we can. If someone chooses not to, that's up to them.

It annoys the hell out of me when I come across western 'freelancers' or 'remote workers' who claim they didn't know it was against the law to work in Thailand without a Work Permit. Do some research, the information is readily available, in English and completely unambigious.

But, just because everyone is doing something, doesn't make it 'right' . . . it just means they haven't been caught yet, or the Thai's haven't bothered cracking down on it yet.

Although I agree with your sentiment, I dont agree with all examples given as being considered "work" under Thai labour law, believe a key part of determing whether someone is "working" in Thailand relates to what a persons "residence" status is in Thailand, and believe this is how the DOL/Immigration interpret things as well

I was given a good example a few years ago by immigration/DOL.

Businessman X who has a business in Singapore is tendering on a job in Thailand and will be in Thailand to conduct business negotiations, while negotiations are on-going the business man will require only a Non-imm B to be legally "working" in Thailand.

However once the contract is signed and the Singapore company starts deploying personnel from Singapore to Thailand to commence the contract, these personnel will require a full WP, as they will be classed as "resident" in Thailand for the duration of the contract.

As regards our internet business men in Thailand, a large number of them claim to be "resident" in Thailand, and operating business' on tourist visa's.

The fact they are claiming "residency" in Thailand and are operating a business to support their lives in Thailand, therefore this will be interpreted as working in Thailand and thus requiring a WP in Thailand, irrespective of where the business/customers are.

For those who say internet business's cant become legal in Thailand, I say Representative Office...

[mjnaus]

And don't imagine they "can't find out". I, myself, have used a computer program that monitors my current location whenever I'm online...and from the IP address of my computer...can tell exactly where that computer is physically located at that time.

If I, as a computer novice can find and use such a search program, then be sure that the Thai authorities can also do it.

The only reason they don't do such things on a regular basis is that it isn't worth the trouble for them.

Now, if you do deals routinely from your hotel room in let's just say Phuket, that earn you profits of 300 million Baht, it might be worthwhile for the Thai authorities to trace and document that fact.

For the potential Thai tax revenue...if nothing else.

Don't fool yourself, the technology is available and as a short trip to Pantip Plaza will reveal there are Thais who know how to use that technology. If it's worth their time and profitable enough.

You're so far off here, I am not sure where to start....

Even if someone would be able to locate your computer, that does not prove anything about what that computer has been doing. Further to that, connecting through proxies, using TOR hiding your location is just as easy using any kind of tool to pin-point a computer.

Hiding and staying anonymous on the internet is still pretty darn easy. Using a good VPN I can connect to the internet through pretty much any country in the world and change my IP address every few minutes.

Anyway, all of that is utterly irrelevant, as are most fear mongering comments in this thread, as it's simply impossible to connect any off-shore income to work done on a certain computer at a certain location. Sure, someone can rat you out to the authorities, but then it's still up to the Labour department or the Tax authority to come up with any kind of prove, which is pretty much impossible.

[Tatsujin]

Anyway, all of that is utterly irrelevant, as are most fear mongering comments in this thread, as it's simply impossible to connect any off-shore income to work done on a certain computer at a certain location. Sure, someone can rat you out to the authorities, but then it's still up to the Labour department or the Tax authority to come up with any kind of prove, which is pretty much impossible.

I'll leave the actual tracing of things aside for now as that's an entirely different subject, but unless you store all files and emails remotely etc etc, when they sieze your laptop and see the timestamps on your files (as an example) and you were IN Thailand at that time, I'm pretty sure that would be enough to say you were working in Thailand at that time.

But leaving that aside also, the very suspicion of working illegally would be enough to have your visa revoked as an example, they don't need to 'prove' anything, they would just make an excuse to never renew it again. You're in Thailand Toto . . . the rules are made to work however they want them to at the time. As long as they are getting their money from visa runs etc etc, as long as you are spending your money in Thailand, and as long as you are not making waves or treading on any toes, then all is fine (for now).

[Soutpeel]

Anyway, all of that is utterly irrelevant, as are most fear mongering comments in this thread, as it's simply impossible to connect any off-shore income to work done on a certain computer at a certain location. Sure, someone can rat you out to the authorities, but then it's still up to the Labour department or the Tax authority to come up with any kind of prove, which is pretty much impossible.

I'll leave the actual tracing of things aside for now as that's an entirely different subject, but unless you store all files and emails remotely etc etc, when they sieze your laptop and see the timestamps on your files (as an example) and you were IN Thailand at that time, I'm pretty sure that would be enough to say you were working in Thailand at that time.

But leaving that aside also, the very suspicion of working illegally would be enough to have your visa revoked as an example, they don't need to 'prove' anything, they would just make an excuse to never renew it again. You're in Thailand Toto . . . the rules are made to work however they want them to at the time. As long as they are getting their money from visa runs etc etc, as long as you are spending your money in Thailand, and as long as you are not making waves or treading on any toes, then all is fine (for now).

The tax authorities/immigration do not need to prove anything, as this would infer you actually have some form of "legal" presence/rights in Thailand...you dont... your a tourist, just being suspected of working illegally could be enough to get you thrown out/visa revoked.

[Tatsujin]

@Soutpeel - thank you . . . exactly what I've been trying to say all along.

Is it likely to happen, no . . . can it happen/has it happened, yes. I know of 2 x 'freelancers' from a while ago that did some work for a Thai company, when it came to payment, they didn't want to pay, and instead reported the 'freelancers' to Immigration and they simply got kicked out for working illegally whilst on a Tourist visa. Not sure if they were blacklisted or not.

[4evermaat]

@Soutpeel - thank you . . . exactly what I've been trying to say all along.

Is it likely to happen, no . . . can it happen/has it happened, yes. I know of 2 x 'freelancers' from a while ago that did some work for a Thai company, when it came to payment, they didn't want to pay, and instead reported the 'freelancers' to Immigration and they simply got kicked out for working illegally whilst on a Tourist visa. Not sure if they were blacklisted or not.

Sounds more like a deal went bad, which can happen anywhere.....but i was referring to working for yourself over internet or outside-thailand sources where the freelance work is portable. or if you contract with thai locals of course you'd take your payment or deposit up front.

If you have a storefront, or are doing some visible labor, of course the proper paperwork would be advisable. They do occasional crackdowns in patong beach in the bars and restaurants. The biggest crime I ever committed in thailand was myself or lady not wearing helmet or having drivers license and getting stopped by traffic police. between 2-500 baht depending on where you are stopped, how much thai you speak, etc. You pay the fine and get on with your life.

[simon43]

but then it's still up to the Labour department or the Tax authority to come up with any kind of prove, which is pretty much impossible.

That's really funny! The tax authority needing proof etc.

This is not Kansas - this is Thailand and we are foreigners with minimal legal rights. Proof and honesty do not enter into the equation

Simon