Occupy As A Means To Financial Reform

[waza]

A big part of the problem.

The chart shows the blue private sector share 74% share of the economic pie (national income) in 1947 shrinking to a 22% share today, as both government spending outlays and regulatory compliance costs expanded faster than growth of the general economy.

Yes a very big part!

lol, What a confusing lot of jibberish. It all looks impressive with the pretty pie charts, but its misdirection. The reality is that economic growth is reliant on the availability of capital to invest in industries. EG: 70% of the US economy is based on consumption, that means people need money to consume. They need manufacturing to employ masses of people to earn wages to consume. But because 1% of the population control 90% of the wealth and only hoard or invest that wealth in the finacial industries there isnt investment in that manufactoring. Therefore, the government must employ greater and greater numbers of the population to keep consumption up, at the cost of public debt. This means that the real problem is the consolidation of wealth in the hands of an increasingly smaller segment of society.

[flying]

In conclusion, you are just quoting the same old bullshit from the capitalist song book. The current state of countries like the USA are like that because of unregulated capitalism not from unionism,

No not at all....I was just saying Unions suck

After all I have been self employed my whole adult life.

Unregulated capitalism? Is that what I am?

[waza]

You seem to have read a lot into what I wrote but didn't say. Frankly, I don't care if the unionists have their wages restricted or not. My point was that no one should be compelled to hire them. Unless I'm a shareholder of a company I don't care what executive salaries and bonuses are either UNLESS they are being subsidized by others and their winning business has nothing to do with normal competitive forces. It's the unfairness of who is granted the right to bid work that causes these distortions. More competition less excesses.

I don't necessarily agree with tax cuts or tax hikes for the rich. I have my own ideas about taxation, which is closer to a flat tax for most people (with a sub-poverty level exemption) and then a second taxation level above a certain amount of annual income. I expect it would lead to greater revenues, which I feel are needed to help retire debt. I can't speak to your social services question as I'm not aware of what the government does in that area.

I am guessing you have an above average IQ, That would put you in the top 40% of the population. Although we all are nor born with the same IQ, I believe we are all born with the same basic human rights. As long as a member of a society adheres to societies rules they are entitle to an equal share of a societies and countries resources. However, is you are able to take your intellect and skills to use those resources to build yourself a better life and greater wealth then that is great, but you should pay an premium for that privilege through a higher tax rate. This tax funds the social services, health care, education,justice, unemployment and aged pension etc.

[flying]

Therefore, the government must employ greater and greater numbers of the population to keep consumption up, at the cost of public debt. This means that the real problem is the consolidation of wealth in the hands of an increasingly smaller segment of society.

Well it could also be that the government has grown to become a beast of burden

As far as consumption goes...it is good work when you can get it. But if your consuming beyond your means on credit then eventually

the chickens come home to roost.

America was always a get it you dam_n self country. Sadly many now expect someone else to get it for them.

If we continue to think our government should police the world & be provider from cradle to grave then yes Houston we have a problem.

[waza]

Therefore, the government must employ greater and greater numbers of the population to keep consumption up, at the cost of public debt. This means that the real problem is the consolidation of wealth in the hands of an increasingly smaller segment of society.

Well it could also be that the government has grown to become a beast of burden

As far as consumption goes...it is good work when you can get it. But if your consuming beyond your means on credit then eventually

the chickens come home to roost.

America was always a get it you dam_n self country. Sadly many now expect someone else to get it for them.

If we continue to think our government should police the world & be provider from cradle to grave then yes Houston we have a problem.

The US government is a whore, it sold its morals to the highest bidder, the financial industry. This invisible hands has changed policy and legislation to deregulates the financial system (shock economics ) and increasing regulating society to control the population(EG:patriot act).

Remember this "Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal....... that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." Abraham Lincoln November 19, 1863. Well I guess legally its still true

In Dartmouth College v. Woodward (1819), corporations were recognized as having the same rights as natural persons to contract and to enforce those contractsMy link

But I don't think its the way he envisioned it.

[Pakboong]

While I do not claim to be well read on macro-economic matters, I would support a "New Deal" type package because as JT has stated, if something is not done, many people will never work again.

The 1999 repeal of the Glass Steagall legislation seems to be a tipping point and something similar should be enacted as quickly as possible. It is essentially "New Deal" in spirit.

As recently as last week, Bank of America moved $75 trillion in Derivitive exposure from the investment banking side of their banking operation to the FDIC insured side, which essentially puts the American taxpayer on the hook for $75 trillion. The entire world produces a little more than half that amount in GDP yearly The US, arguably 20% yearly.

November 9, 2010

On November 9, 2010, the FDIC issued a Final Rule implementing section 343 of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act that provides for unlimited insurance coverage of noninterest-bearing transaction accounts. Beginning December 31, 2010, through December 31, 2012, all noninterest-bearing transaction accounts are fully insured, regardless of the balance of th...e account, at all FDIC-insured institutions. The unlimited insurance coverage is available to all depositors, including consumers, businesses, and government entities. This unlimited insurance coverage is separate from, and in addition to, the insurance coverage provided to a depositor’s other deposit accounts held at an FDIC-insured institution.

The above legislation paved the way for the Bank of America Move and was largely undetected by the American Public who will mostly have interest bearing accounts and not be protected.

Glass Steagall made such activities illegal. The big guys knew this was coming, and as early as November of last year,and were working the congress to gain protection. To me, it is knowing that this is coming and keeping it from Americans other than those that troll the bowels of the alternative news sites each day, is the real crime. We need full disclosure for every American regarding such matters.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Pakboong

[flying]

what u don't seem to understand JingThing is that the system of the Fed is designed for the bankers and politicians to rob and loot. it is no surprise thus that krugman and obama are winnng peace prizes.they are certainly crowd pleasers of the 1%.

It is amazing in this day that many folks still do not understand the FED & how it came into existence or even who they are.

Many still believe FED is short for Federal & think it is a branch of the government.

They do not even realize that the FED gets a 6% cut off the top of all the interest it collects. Imagine what that amounts to.

They are a privately held/owned business/middleman that stands between Treasury & banks. None should be surprised if they read the history & see WHO brought them into existence. Also none should be surprised by HOW they were brought into power.

One person who did realize what it ( the 6%) would amount to in the future was JFK

He cut them out in 1963 by issuing US notes again.. not FED Reserve currency. Of course that did not last long & he was assassinated.

Those US notes were then quietly withdrawn from circulation.

Dont forget too that the FED Reserve quietly pushed 13 Trillion in short term loans out the back door during the crisis.

All done WITHOUT Congressional oversight. This resulted in inflation in Foreign countries & higher food costs which resulted in much of the unrest we now see in places like Egypt & Libya....Yes I know we are told it is all rioting for freedom

Yes the FED is an interesting study for those looking for answers to some of the main reasons we are where we are today.

Edited October 31, 2011 by flying

[Pakboong]

what u don't seem to understand JingThing is that the system of the Fed is designed for the bankers and politicians to rob and loot. it is no surprise thus that krugman and obama are winnng peace prizes.they are certainly crowd pleasers of the 1%.

It is amazing in this day that many folks still do not understand the FED & how it came into existence or even who they are.

Many still believe FED is short for Federal & think it is a branch of the government.

They do not even realize that the FED gets a 6% cut off the top of all the interest it collects. Imagine what that amounts to.

They are a privately held/owned business/middleman that stands between Treasury & banks. None should be surprised if they read the history & see WHO brought them into existence. Also none should be surprised by HOW they were brought into power.

One person who did realize what it ( the 6%) would amount to in the future was JFK

He cut them out in 1963 by issuing US notes again.. not FED Reserve currency. Of course that did not last long & he was assassinated.

Those US notes were then quietly withdrawn from circulation.

Dont forget too that the FED Reserve quietly pushed 13 Trillion in short term loans out the back door during the crisis.

All done WITHOUT Congressional oversight. This resulted in inflation in Foreign countries & higher food costs which resulted in much of the unrest we now see in places like Egypt & Libya....Yes I know we are told it is all rioting for freedom

Yes the FED is an interesting study for those looking for answers to some of the main reasons we are where we are today.

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

― Woodrow Wilson

Among the truest words ever spoken

[waza]

what u don't seem to understand JingThing is that the system of the Fed is designed for the bankers and politicians to rob and loot. it is no surprise thus that krugman and obama are winnng peace prizes.they are certainly crowd pleasers of the 1%.

It is amazing in this day that many folks still do not understand the FED & how it came into existence or even who they are.

Many still believe FED is short for Federal & think it is a branch of the government.

They do not even realize that the FED gets a 6% cut off the top of all the interest it collects. Imagine what that amounts to.

They are a privately held/owned business/middleman that stands between Treasury & banks. None should be surprised if they read the history & see WHO brought them into existence. Also none should be surprised by HOW they were brought into power.

One person who did realize what it ( the 6%) would amount to in the future was JFK

He cut them out in 1963 by issuing US notes again.. not FED Reserve currency. Of course that did not last long & he was assassinated.

Those US notes were then quietly withdrawn from circulation.

Dont forget too that the FED Reserve quietly pushed 13 Trillion in short term loans out the back door during the crisis.

All done WITHOUT Congressional oversight. This resulted in inflation in Foreign countries & higher food costs which resulted in much of the unrest we now see in places like Egypt & Libya....Yes I know we are told it is all rioting for freedom

Yes the FED is an interesting study for those looking for answers to some of the main reasons we are where we are today.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

― Woodrow Wilson

Among the truest words ever spoken

How many times does this lesson need to be learnt?

[flying]

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

― Woodrow Wilson

Among the truest words ever spoken

I have often thought about that quote you posted.

I have wondered about what utter despair he felt when he wrote it knowing/realizing what had been done.

Edited October 31, 2011 by flying

[Pakboong]

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

― Woodrow Wilson

Among the truest words ever spoken

I have often thought about that quote you posted.

I have wondered about what utter despair he felt when he wrote it knowing/realizing what had been done.

It is hard to imagine such a confession from the President of the United States.

[Jingthing]

HURRAH!

The left wing OWS movement has ALREADY scored a huge victory. It has radically changed the very nature of the national political debate in the USA. Why? Because OWS represents the concerns of the MAJORITY, while the fascist tea party represents a reactionary minority.

It is so heartening to see the OWS movement emerge. Keep hope alive.

...

But whats most instructive is that Ryan would not have given this speech if the Republican Party were not so worried that it is losing control of the political narrative. In particular, growing inequalities of wealth and income which should have been a central issue in American politics for at least a decade are now finally at the heart of our discourse. We are, at last, discussing the social and economic costs of concentrating ever more resources in the hands of the top sliver of our society.

...

A recent survey by The Washington Post and the Pew Research Center showed Occupy Wall Street to be more popular now than the Tea Party, which keeps losing ground. The poll also showed that these two movements are quite distinct they are not part of some generalized protest. Only 10 percent of those surveyed supported both Occupy Wall Street and the tea party. And, as my colleague Greg Sargent has documented tirelessly, on many of Occupys core issues (favoring higher taxes on millionaires and believing in a more even distribution of income and wealth), public opinion strongly supports the anti-Wall Streeters.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/paul-ryans-frown-should-make-democrats-smile/2011/10/30/gIQAFUWEXM_story.html Edited October 31, 2011 by Jingthing

[flying]

Nice to see two allowed to talk freely

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRYk4PobHx4&feature=player_embedded

[craigt3365]

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

― Woodrow Wilson

Among the truest words ever spoken

I have often thought about that quote you posted.

I have wondered about what utter despair he felt when he wrote it knowing/realizing what had been done.

It appears he did not make this quote:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson

Scroll down to the section of misattributed quotes.

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=15655

Comment: An alleged Woodrow Wilson quote that is used by many conspiracy

theory movies involving the Federal Reserve and IRS, however no source can

be found online other than a reference to Page 31 of a document titled

"Repeal the Federal Reserve Banks" by Casimir Frank Gierut (which also can

not be found online).

[houseinbkk]

What we need is less govt and more capitalism albeit better regulated, what these people are complaining about is socialism albeit for the very rich (and those fortunate enough to have a public sector pension)

[midas]

An Open Letter to the Citizens of Oakland from the Oakland Police Officers’ Association

" As your police officers, we are confused."

http://www.opoa.org/uncategorized/an-open-letter-to-the-citizens-of-oakland-from-the-oakland-police-officers%E2%80%99-association/

Edited November 2, 2011 by midas

[Pakboong]

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

― Woodrow Wilson

Among the truest words ever spoken

I have often thought about that quote you posted.

I have wondered about what utter despair he felt when he wrote it knowing/realizing what had been done.

It appears he did not make this quote:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson

Scroll down to the section of misattributed quotes.

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=15655

Comment: An alleged Woodrow Wilson quote that is used by many conspiracy

theory movies involving the Federal Reserve and IRS, however no source can

be found online other than a reference to Page 31 of a document titled

"Repeal the Federal Reserve Banks" by Casimir Frank Gierut (which also can

not be found online).

No real way to prove it one way or another. Only that it came to pass really matters. Here is another attributed to him:

"Some of the biggest men in the United States are afraid of something. They know there is a power somewhere, so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." – President Woodrow Wilson

[flying]

An Open Letter to the Citizens of Oakland from the Oakland Police Officers’ Association

" As your police officers, we are confused."

http://www.opoa.org/uncategorized/an-open-letter-to-the-citizens-of-oakland-from-the-oakland-police-officers%E2%80%99-association/

This is the early stages.

If it continues & I do not mean the OWS movement I mean the collapse

There will be lines drawn & decisions to be made.

These police are feeling the original pangs now & have questions.

I remember reading years ago when this all started a group was formed called Oath Keepers.

They see it coming & are made up of various enforcement types.

Soldiers, Police, National Guardsmen, Marshals, Veterans, Firemen.. etc.

They have been trying to define the line they will not at some point cross.

I have not looked in on their site for some time but this letter you linked

reminded me of them...or folks like them that will at some point feel squeezed between orders & conscience

Edited November 2, 2011 by flying

[midas]

I remember reading years ago when this all started a group was formed called Oath Keepers.

They see it coming & are made up of various enforcement types.

Soldiers, Police, National Guardsmen, Marshals, Veterans, Firemen.. etc.

They have been trying to define the line they will not at some point cross.

I have not looked in on their site for some time but this letter you linked

reminded me of them...or folks like them that will at some point feel squeezed between orders & conscience

that was interesting flying and I found their website

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

And I really liked this interview and I think you will too ( although I don't think Jingthing will )

Edited November 2, 2011 by midas

[flying]

that was interesting flying and I found their website

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

And I really liked this interview and I think you will too ( although I don't think Jingthing will )

Yes that is the group Oath Keepers

Yes I liked the video & he said as I often do...

We have a beautiful Constitution! Enforce it !!!!

Same goes for the IRS & FED there is only one man who has ever said if he is elected

he will abolish them

True also about Andrew Jackson closing the US bank because he saw what they wanted to do.

That vigilance has been lost...or bought out.

He also said as I often do there is no two party system just one corrupt bird with two corrupt wings.

Edited November 2, 2011 by flying

[midas]

He also said as I often do there is no two party system just one corrupt bird with two corrupt wings.

actually I have never heard any politician ( other than Ron Paul ) speak as passionately about the Constitution

as this veteran did and yet didn't they all have to swear to uphold it when then became Representatives and Senators ?

Shouldn't the Republicans at least be saying the same thing about not needing to be there protesting if the Constitution was properly

enforced?

Edited November 2, 2011 by midas

[flying]

actually I have never heard any politician ( other than Ron Paul ) speak as passionately about the Constitution

as this veteran did and yet didn't they all have to swear to uphold it when then became Representatives and Senators ?

Shouldn't the Republicans at least be saying the same thing about not needing to be there protesting if the Constitution was properly

enforced?

Of course they do swear to uphold it & yet none do.

They seem to think they swear an oath to their biggest campaign contributors or a party.

By right they should be hung for treason then shot for good measure.

To top it off they have the audacity to create an act & name it the Patriot Act<sic>

This allows them to circumnavigate the Constitution.

Not only do they use this act to remove our personal freedoms & rights to privacy but they also use

this act to deny habeas corpus. This denial of habeas corpus can be used against citizens & enemies alike these days.

They do this not only to their own citizens but those they claim to be enemy combatants.

This same misuse allows them to side step moral obligations & allow such things as torture of suspected enemies in prisons they keep off of

US soil.

This is the same torture techniques the US hung Japanese soldiers after WWII for using during WWII

Edited November 2, 2011 by flying

[Jingthing]

Oath Keepers are an offshoot of the Ron Paul political cult. This thread is about OWS, not Ron Paulism, which is positioned much closer to the right wing tea party rather than OWS. As I have documented, only 10 percent of Americans support both the tea party AND OWS. Pick a side. It seems that many crafty Paulians are trying to occupy OWS. Of course, they must be resisted.

Really, people, use your noodles. This bizarre radical Oath Keepers cult thinks Americans should pay NO taxes. The OWS movement is for higher taxation on the elites. Come on now. Pick a side.

Back to the topic of OWS, this great emerging populist movement, check out these suggestions from Wall Street nemesis (and famous whoremonger) Eliot Spitzer. Excellent suggestions!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBV7ACTl-Bc

WHAT NEXT info starts at about minute 3.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Jingthing

[flying]

Come on now. Pick a side.

You poor disillusioned person

Pick a side?

You will do just as they tell you...as always

pick a side = they only have to deal with half

both sides = zero change

[Jingthing]

Sorry, the reality is Paulians who believe Americans have no obligation to their govenment in taxation have almost nothing in common with the MAJORITY of Americans who think the elites need to pay much more.

The time has come to kick the astroturf Fox News tea party to the curb ...

The REAL majority has emerged ... organically.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Jingthing

[flying]

Wake up

Your still dreaming

[Jingthing]

The OWS movement can move forward without the small minority of Ron Paul true beleivers, which represent much less than 10 percent of the country.

[flying]

It is not about RP although he is in fact

the one who planted most of the green shoots you see.

I hope more than 10% understand the Constitution

better than you....therein lies the way forward.

At least the video was encouraging as the man interviewed seemed to know more

about it than most who sit in Washington.

That should be a requirement to hold any office in Washington

A test on the contents of the Constitution.

Judging by some of the things you say I don't think it would be

a bad idea to make the voters take the same test.

Edited November 2, 2011 by flying

[midas]

Really, people, use your noodles. This bizarre radical Oath Keepers cult thinks Americans should pay NO taxes. The OWS movement is for higher taxation on the elites. Come on now. Pick a side.

I learn something every day on TV and I certainly didn't know before that 16th Amendment had never been properly ratified?

It's pretty significant Jingthing though I know you have this tendency to want to sweep legal requirements under the carpet the same way that you conducted your arguments regarding “ the birthers “ implying that producing a birth certificate was not important this is fascism! Are you actually a fascist Jingthing ?

It's no wonder you want to keep the Federal Reserve going because if that organisation faltered then the integrity of the whole IRS

revenue collection system could be in jeopardy as well?

What I don't understand is how US citizens have been duped for so long and why someone with real resources didn't challenge the constitutionality of the IRS long ago?

“An argument often made by judges attempting to ignore the fact of the failure to ratify the 16th, is that precedence under Common Law now exists because the IRS has been mugging the public for so long and this somehow legalizes the IRS and the local County Tax collector. However, the U.S. Constitution is higher law than the precedence of Common Law, which in itself represents the will of the people and not the will of the government. Article I, Section 2 of the Constitution dictates that the IRS and the local County Tax collector are collecting tax unlawfully. The main purpose of the income tax is not to raise revenue, but to redistribute wealth and control society. Either the U.S. is a nation of laws or it is a lawless nation.”

http://www.libertyforlife.com/constitution/us-16th-failed-ratification.htm

Edited November 2, 2011 by midas

[Jingthing]

OWS is not about abolishing the IRS. Reforming the tax code in a more progressive fashion? Sure.

About the fed. Simply "killing the fed" without an orderly process in place would pretty much guarantee an instant and massive global economic meltdown of unprecedented proportions. Even Ron Paul has admitted that! Back to the real world of real possibilities, please.

That is why I consider these hard core radicals like Oath Keepers to be political nihilists. They actively work for total destruction, and don't care about the results to human lives.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Jingthing