Democrat Urges Thaksin To Tell Red Shirts To Stop Causing Rifts

[Cayenne]

Or maybe this is Thaksin's plan to take attention away from his sister by having the opposition focus on something else? From the ABAC polls, the government is taking a beating as it is, so he needs to take the heat away for now.

[rubl]

Pretty funny statement from the Dems - Asking the hunted, fugitive former prime minister, a convicted criminal banned from politics to help stop people from causing rifts during a time of crisis.

... rest removed

By Jove, could the Dem's have become a bit more pragmatic ? I mean, somehow acknowledging that "Thaksin thinks, Pheu Thai acts" should be taken literally ?

[gl555]

...and the Army always does what the politicians say. Especially their favorite friends from the "red side" of town!

Say what you want about the Army but when a crisis like this happens, they will respond and they will help. What they've done in the last few days is more thea what the idiot PTP government has done in weeks. Now imagine if the puppet had gone to them earlier. How many more homes would have been saved?

[serenitynow]

...and the Army always does what the politicians say. Especially their favorite friends from the "red side" of town!

Say what you want about the Army but when a crisis like this happens, they will respond and they will help. What they've done in the last few days is more thea what the idiot PTP government has done in weeks. Now imagine if the puppet had gone to them earlier. How many more homes would have been saved?

Exactly! People like to play their partisan political games but the incompetence of these folks is killing people daily "Double Standards" on display for all to see. Even the most blinkered proponents of this incompetent lot ought to be able to see that.

[TAWP]

The rift right now is caused by YS-bashers, who ask the impossible of her, but offer no solution except for...yeah...well...they offer no solutions.

I guess, some are simply waiting for Bangkok to drown, so they can celebrate their dirty little victory!

Most bashing has been against her ministers, not so much against YS...apart from her not having any control over them.

[serenitynow]

The rift right now is caused by YS-bashers, who ask the impossible of her, but offer no solution except for...yeah...well...they offer no solutions.

I guess, some are simply waiting for Bangkok to drown, so they can celebrate their dirty little victory!

Most bashing has been against her ministers, not so much against YS...apart from her not having any control over them.

And of course not having a single credential or work history for fulfilling the obligations of her job. I can't figure out at all why people would be defending her. If the girl working the cahiers booth at Tesco were suddenly appointed PM, she would have had more work experience than the current PM.

[TAWP]

True, thanks to the money bankrolled by Thaksin to set up the machinery and the personality cult indoctrination camps with him as the object of admiration set up through the (north parts of the) country, they could have fielded a potted plant and still received the same number of votes as they got now.

And the same post-election results.

Edited October 18, 2011 by TAWP

[WarpSpeed]

"you red supporters"? I am as far from being a YS-supporter than Thailand is from the moon. Just because someone says, people should just generally shut up and work together FOR ONES for the greater good, doesn't make me Thaksin- supporter.

Nitarat, Amsterdam etc. have their own agenda and they started all this way before there was even a flood insight!

And my oh-so-fearless- leader: what would you have done different, with a quantity of rainwater that this arguably larger than any before, with a flood and disaster management that is practically not existing and where everyone opens or closes damns and reservoirs as they like...and you allow her ...what...3 weeks to completely change all that was done wrong in ages???

Talk about relastic measures and fairness!

Yes you're not allowed to take a sensible, logical, common sense and realistic view you have to be either or? No other way in some peoples minds, with us or against us..

JFYI for those unaware, the world doesn't come to a stop and the courts and the system keeps grinding on in spite of disasters and that's how it's supposed to be. They also have certain deadlines and statute of limitations with which they have to contend..

[WarpSpeed]

Pretty funny statement from the Dems - Asking the hunted, fugitive former prime minister, a convicted criminal banned from politics to help stop people from causing rifts during a time of crisis.

On the other hand Abhisit seems to forget about his party threatening impeachments in August just weeks after the first flash floods hit... yeah, that's not a rift-generating activity, just a bit of good-natured fun between political rivals, ya know...

Of course "his" flood problem in March only caused the deaths of 53 people - I guess he was lucky that it didn't hit such densely populated areas or continue for 3 months.

But in March the Navy jumped right in with their big boat and save a lot of Thais and tourists, ... the same day that the Lomprayah ferry resumed operations.

IMO, there are 3 distinct tasks, none of which involve rifts. 1) deal with the floods today. Then at the appropriate time, look at 2) the emergency response effort for improvement, and the 3) long-term flood prevention measures. (but that is stating the obvious, isn't it). No matter what goes on in the news here, there are still a lot of people in need out there. It's a good time to donate whatever it is you can, time or money.

ah, ... as for that Navy operation last March, I have my own photos and video, just a little something to share...

<< BTW, the canoe in the first shot is, you guessed it, actually in the street....>>

<< Really nice boat these guys have ... took around 2,000, 2,500 people with them. >>

Think I'd feel safer if they ferried me out instead of helicopter they don't seem to have too much luck with those staying in the air these days..

[WarpSpeed]

...and the Army always does what the politicians say. Especially their favorite friends from the "red side" of town!

Say what you want about the Army but when a crisis like this happens, they will respond and they will help. What they've done in the last few days is more thea what the idiot PTP government has done in weeks. Now imagine if the puppet had gone to them earlier. How many more homes would have been saved?

Hmm, I always thought the military was there to serve the government and be it's outreach? Or is this another case of TiT? I guess it stands to reason they (the military) have more resources then mere civilian administrators and decades of management behind them coupled with a more rigid command structure so it's no stretch to imagine them more capable to handle a disaster of this scope then a newly elected admin of only a few months..

[tlansford]

Pretty funny statement from the Dems - Asking the hunted, fugitive former prime minister, a convicted criminal banned from politics to help stop people from causing rifts during a time of crisis.

On the other hand Abhisit seems to forget about his party threatening impeachments in August just weeks after the first flash floods hit... yeah, that's not a rift-generating activity, just a bit of good-natured fun between political rivals, ya know...

Of course "his" flood problem in March only caused the deaths of 53 people - I guess he was lucky that it didn't hit such densely populated areas or continue for 3 months.

But in March the Navy jumped right in with their big boat and save a lot of Thais and tourists, ... the same day that the Lomprayah ferry resumed operations.

IMO, there are 3 distinct tasks, none of which involve rifts. 1) deal with the floods today. Then at the appropriate time, look at 2) the emergency response effort for improvement, and the 3) long-term flood prevention measures. (but that is stating the obvious, isn't it). No matter what goes on in the news here, there are still a lot of people in need out there. It's a good time to donate whatever it is you can, time or money.

ah, ... as for that Navy operation last March, I have my own photos and video, just a little something to share...

<< BTW, the canoe in the first shot is, you guessed it, actually in the street....>>

<< Really nice boat these guys have ... took around 2,000, 2,500 people with them. >>

Think I'd feel safer if they ferried me out instead of helicopter they don't seem to have too much luck with those staying in the air these days..

well it was no problem in March, thankfully. My sister-in-law went on the flat transport boat to the Carrier, though and had to climb a very tall ladder to get inside. Would have hated to fall back inot the boat/ocean from that height!

On the other hand, I stayed on KT and had (honestly) the absolute smooooooothest ferry-ride ever 4 days later.

[metisdead]

Posts that were off topic, inflammatory, and containing profanity have been removed.

[hanuman1]

True, thanks to the money bankrolled by Thaksin to set up the machinery and the personality cult indoctrination camps with him as the object of admiration set up through the (north parts of the) country, they could have fielded a potted plant and still received the same number of votes as they got now.

And the same post-election results.

*SIGH* More fanatical fantasies.....

[OzMick]

...and the Army always does what the politicians say. Especially their favorite friends from the "red side" of town!

Say what you want about the Army but when a crisis like this happens, they will respond and they will help. What they've done in the last few days is more thea what the idiot PTP government has done in weeks. Now imagine if the puppet had gone to them earlier. How many more homes would have been saved?

Hmm, I always thought the military was there to serve the government and be it's outreach? Or is this another case of TiT? I guess it stands to reason they (the military) have more resources then mere civilian administrators and decades of management behind them coupled with a more rigid command structure so it's no stretch to imagine them more capable to handle a disaster of this scope then a newly elected admin of only a few months..

Exactly the point - so why weren't they used from Day 1? Every day we hear of the military taking on a bigger role - can you give me a logical reason not to fully mobilise ASAP?

[OzMick]

True, thanks to the money bankrolled by Thaksin to set up the machinery and the personality cult indoctrination camps with him as the object of admiration set up through the (north parts of the) country, they could have fielded a potted plant and still received the same number of votes as they got now.

And the same post-election results.

*SIGH* More fanatical fantasies.....

I have a relative who was paid to attend a "democracy school." Unluckily for the trainers, he is reasonably intelligent and informed, and left in disgust after the first day.

It has been red-shirt policy to lie to the populace of Isaan, at least those lacking sufficient education to see through their deceit, to the extent that they were claiming democrat policies as gifts from Thaksin. The old age payment was a particular favourite, has been reported by several posters that their in-laws believe this.

[hanuman1]

True, thanks to the money bankrolled by Thaksin to set up the machinery and the personality cult indoctrination camps with him as the object of admiration set up through the (north parts of the) country, they could have fielded a potted plant and still received the same number of votes as they got now.

And the same post-election results.

*SIGH* More fanatical fantasies.....

I have a relative who was paid to attend a "democracy school." Unluckily for the trainers, he is reasonably intelligent and informed, and left in disgust after the first day.

It has been red-shirt policy to lie to the populace of Isaan, at least those lacking sufficient education to see through their deceit, to the extent that they were claiming democrat policies as gifts from Thaksin. The old age payment was a particular favorite, has been reported by several posters that their in-laws believe this.

I don't call into question your anecdote.

It's just that for TAWP's accusation to hold water, the following things would need to be established:

1) Thaksin paid for the setting up of personality cult indoctrination camps. Is there a paper trail/video/witness statements to this effect?

2) Sufficient numbers of personality cult indoctrination camps were set up to be able to handle the millions of voters who voted PTP. Where are they all, exactly? What is a typical class size? How often do they 'teach'?

3) The indoctrination was so successful as to indoctrinate sufficient numbers of voters into voting for any PTP candidate that would have been put up. What % of voters went to these camps? Is there even an estimate? There would have had to be millions - and all successfully indoctrinated.

All 3 points would have to be provable to a reasonable person for TAWP's post to be anything more than the usual fanatical fantasy.

Do you agree with what he said? If so, why?

[hammered]

Same old Thaksin controls and is responsible for everything line that is repeatedly peddled out.

[OzMick]

The bit about the potted plant was obviously rhetoric, and no, I don't believe the effect was passed on to every PTP voter.

OTOH there are a large number of red-shirts who have been subject to personality cult style indoctrination, mis-information and distortions of fact. As I have expressed many times before, the distrust of the constitutional court perceived by many in Isaan is a direct result of this, and may well be why they have not acted against the current government.

[WarpSpeed]

...and the Army always does what the politicians say. Especially their favorite friends from the "red side" of town!

Say what you want about the Army but when a crisis like this happens, they will respond and they will help. What they've done in the last few days is more thea what the idiot PTP government has done in weeks. Now imagine if the puppet had gone to them earlier. How many more homes would have been saved?

Hmm, I always thought the military was there to serve the government and be it's outreach? Or is this another case of TiT? I guess it stands to reason they (the military) have more resources then mere civilian administrators and decades of management behind them coupled with a more rigid command structure so it's no stretch to imagine them more capable to handle a disaster of this scope then a newly elected admin of only a few months..

Exactly the point - so why weren't they used from Day 1? Every day we hear of the military taking on a bigger role - can you give me a logical reason not to fully mobilise ASAP?

I fear to say that this is the end result of mistrust and the military overstepping their bounds in the past. If they were open and trustworthy with the country's best interest in mind which includes allowing democracy to take hold and respecting the will of the voters then the Thai people would not be caught in the middle of a situation of distrust..

They're like spoiled children, you give them an inch and they think their entitled to a mile..

[scorecard]

True, thanks to the money bankrolled by Thaksin to set up the machinery and the personality cult indoctrination camps with him as the object of admiration set up through the (north parts of the) country, they could have fielded a potted plant and still received the same number of votes as they got now.

And the same post-election results.

*SIGH* More fanatical fantasies.....

I have a relative who was paid to attend a "democracy school." Unluckily for the trainers, he is reasonably intelligent and informed, and left in disgust after the first day.

It has been red-shirt policy to lie to the populace of Isaan, at least those lacking sufficient education to see through their deceit, to the extent that they were claiming democrat policies as gifts from Thaksin. The old age payment was a particular favorite, has been reported by several posters that their in-laws believe this.

I don't call into question your anecdote.

It's just that for TAWP's accusation to hold water, the following things would need to be established:

1) Thaksin paid for the setting up of personality cult indoctrination camps. Is there a paper trail/video/witness statements to this effect?

2) Sufficient numbers of personality cult indoctrination camps were set up to be able to handle the millions of voters who voted PTP. Where are they all, exactly? What is a typical class size? How often do they 'teach'?

3) The indoctrination was so successful as to indoctrinate sufficient numbers of voters into voting for any PTP candidate that would have been put up. What % of voters went to these camps? Is there even an estimate? There would have had to be millions - and all successfully indoctrinated.

All 3 points would have to be provable to a reasonable person for TAWP's post to be anything more than the usual fanatical fantasy.

Do you agree with what he said? If so, why?

It doesn't need an 'audit' trail as you suggest.

Your attempt to make an absolute link between voting for pt and attending a democracy school doesn't hold that much water.

There are many comments about vote buying (one of my Thai staff in Bkk shared the details of cash was distributed in Udon Thai where her family live) which would be one of the catalysts to vote pt, and the hand-out promises 300Baht min wage, 15,000 start salary, tablets for school kids, promises to control pork prices etc., would also have swayed many voters to vote pt.

I, like many people, have Thai relatives and Thai friends who have shared the same thing - the 'democracy' schools were nothing more than re-runs of old doctored tapes full of hate messages etc. My Thai adult son has asked many people whether they received any verbal presentation or literature specific to what democracy really means, how it is built, the pillars that need to be protected etc., the answer has always been 'nothing'. And they all said they received payment to attend.

Edited October 19, 2011 by scorecard

[animatic]

The rift right now is caused by YS-bashers, who ask the impossible of her, but offer no solution except for...yeah...well...they offer no solutions.

I guess, some are simply waiting for Bangkok to drown, so they can celebrate their dirty little victory!

Most bashing has been against her ministers, not so much against YS...apart from her not having any control over them.

And of course not having a single credential or work history for fulfilling the obligations of her job. I can't figure out at all why people would be defending her. If the girl working the cahiers booth at Tesco were suddenly appointed PM, she would have had more work experience than the current PM.

But it's OK if they are cute!

[scorecard]

The rift right now is caused by YS-bashers, who ask the impossible of her, but offer no solution except for...yeah...well...they offer no solutions.

I guess, some are simply waiting for Bangkok to drown, so they can celebrate their dirty little victory!

Your wrong, the total incompetence of her ministers etc., (which she claims to have appointed - however the truth surely is that most very decided by big brother) is the cause of the bashing.

I do agree, she did not make it rain, but she is the PM and she and her clowns haven't done a very good job.

[animatic]

quote 'TAWP' timestamp='1318962582' post='4775047'

True, thanks to the money bankrolled by Thaksin to set up the machinery and the personality cult indoctrination camps with him as the object of admiration set up through the (north parts of the) country, they could have fielded a potted plant and still received the same number of votes as they got now.

And the same post-election results.

*SIGH* More fanatical fantasies.....

I have a relative who was paid to attend a "democracy school." Unluckily for the trainers, he is reasonably intelligent and informed, and left in disgust after the first day.

It has been red-shirt policy to lie to the populace of Isaan, at least those lacking sufficient education to see through their deceit, to the extent that they were claiming democrat policies as gifts from Thaksin. The old age payment was a particular favorite, has been reported by several posters that their in-laws believe this.

I don't call into question your anecdote.

It's just that for TAWP's accusation to hold water, the following things would need to be established:

1) Thaksin paid for the setting up of personality cult indoctrination camps. Is there a paper trail/video/witness statements to this effect?

2) Sufficient numbers of personality cult indoctrination camps were set up to be able to handle the millions of voters who voted PTP. Where are they all, exactly? What is a typical class size? How often do they 'teach'?

3) The indoctrination was so successful as to indoctrinate sufficient numbers of voters into voting for any PTP candidate that would have been put up. What % of voters went to these camps? Is there even an estimate? There would have had to be millions - and all successfully indoctrinated.

All 3 points would have to be provable to a reasonable person for TAWP's post to be anything more than the usual fanatical fantasy.

Do you agree with what he said? If so, why?

It doesn't need an 'audit' trail as you suggest.

Your attempt to make an absolute link between voting for pt and attending a democracy school doesn't hold that much water.

There are many comments about vote buying (one of my Thai staff in Bkk shared the details of cash was distributed in Udon Thai where her family live) which would be one of the catalysts to vote pt, and the hand-out promises 300Baht min wage, 15,000 start salary, tablets for school kids, promises to control pork prices etc., would also have swayed many voters to vote pt.

I, like many people, have Thai relatives and Thai friends who have shared the same thing - the 'democracy' schools were nothing more than re-runs of old doctored tapes full of hate messages etc. My Thai adult son has asked many people whether they received any verbal presentation or literature specific to what democracy really means, how it is built, the pillars that need to be protected etc., the answer has always been 'nothing'. And they all said they received payment to attend.

indoctrination camps of the most basic sort.

[hanuman1]

I don't call into question your anecdote.

It's just that for TAWP's accusation to hold water, the following things would need to be established:

1) Thaksin paid for the setting up of personality cult indoctrination camps. Is there a paper trail/video/witness statements to this effect?

2) Sufficient numbers of personality cult indoctrination camps were set up to be able to handle the millions of voters who voted PTP. Where are they all, exactly? What is a typical class size? How often do they 'teach'?

3) The indoctrination was so successful as to indoctrinate sufficient numbers of voters into voting for any PTP candidate that would have been put up. What % of voters went to these camps? Is there even an estimate? There would have had to be millions - and all successfully indoctrinated.

All 3 points would have to be provable to a reasonable person for TAWP's post to be anything more than the usual fanatical fantasy.

Do you agree with what he said? If so, why?

It doesn't need an 'audit' trail as you suggest.

Your attempt to make an absolute link between voting for pt and attending a democracy school doesn't hold that much water.

There are many comments about vote buying (one of my Thai staff in Bkk shared the details of cash was distributed in Udon Thai where her family live) which would be one of the catalysts to vote pt, and the hand-out promises 300Baht min wage, 15,000 start salary, tablets for school kids, promises to control pork prices etc., would also have swayed many voters to vote pt.

I, like many people, have Thai relatives and Thai friends who have shared the same thing - the 'democracy' schools were nothing more than re-runs of old doctored tapes full of hate messages etc. My Thai adult son has asked many people whether they received any verbal presentation or literature specific to what democracy really means, how it is built, the pillars that need to be protected etc., the answer has always been 'nothing'. And they all said they received payment to attend.

It was TAWP - not I - that directly linked voting for pt and attending a democracy school:

True, thanks to the money bankrolled by Thaksin to set up the machinery and the personality cult indoctrination camps with him as the object of admiration set up through the (north parts of the) country, they could have fielded a potted plant and still received the same number of votes as they got now.

And the same post-election results.

I was merely blowing this fanatical fantasy out of the water.

I don't doubt what you say about vote buying (which all parties evidently participate in), or your anecdotal evidence of the way these 'personality cult indoctrination camps' work. It still doesn't mean that the PTP won the election because of this. Think about it - millions of voters all going to these schools, and all coming out having been successfully indoctrinated.

And you think this is likely?

If these establishments were so effective maybe they should have taught these millions to shut up, accept their place in Thai society and stop bothering the government from here on in. But then, that's what decades of the Thai class system has already taught them. I guess some lessons are more preferable to learn than others.

Edited October 19, 2011 by hanuman1

[TAWP]

I didn't write that the indoctrination camps alone won any election, I was giving a brief rehash of some used components in this astroturfed 'classwar'.

The point was to elude to the fact that the PM wasn't elected PM because she rode the party to 'victory' or because of her incredible skills. Since they exchanged her position at her last work for a potted pant, perhaps we could have seen PT win if the potted plant had been nominated instead. If there wasn't a rule that cabinet members had to have degrees. And most poor people and potted plants don't have that.

If Joe Somchai the Plumber had ran as a candidate I would have been more impressed.

[TAWP]

While the gf was flipping between news now I saw some from VoiceTV where a reporter in the field, during an introduction to people standing waist-high in flood water, talked for 40 second and 3(!) times mention 'Thaksin Shinawatra' (full name), and ends with 'So what do you want to tell Khun Thaksin' (said in Thai) and the man closest to the reporter in the group start to reply how grateful they where over Thaksin and how they want him to come back.

I tell you, it was freaking insane, scary and absolute nuts.

Yes, the channel is owned by members of the family itself, but this unhindered propaganda goes out 24/7.

[hanuman1]

I didn't write that the indoctrination camps alone won any election, I was giving a brief rehash of some used components in this astroturfed 'classwar'.

The point was to elude to the fact that the PM wasn't elected PM because she rode the party to 'victory' or because of her incredible skills. Since they exchanged her position at her last work for a potted pant, perhaps we could have seen PT win if the potted plant had been nominated instead. If there wasn't a rule that cabinet members had to have degrees. And most poor people and potted plants don't have that.

If Joe Somchai the Plumber had ran as a candidate I would have been more impressed.

Good! I feel we're really making progress here.

So between our Triumvirate of Wisdom (yourself, scorecard and I), we have now established that:

1) The election wasn't won because of 'Thaksin's indoctrination camps'

and

2) Vote buying was conducted by all parties during the election

So I wonder if you'd care to revise your opinion on why PTP are now the government.

Can we narrow it down simply to implausibly overambitious election promises? Or is there any room there for utter dissatisfaction with the Democrat party and disillusionment with anything political that the army had a role in?

Cheers!

[tlansford]

While the gf was flipping between news now I saw some from VoiceTV where a reporter in the field, during an introduction to people standing waist-high in flood water, talked for 40 second and 3(!) times mention 'Thaksin Shinawatra' (full name), and ends with 'So what do you want to tell Khun Thaksin' (said in Thai) and the man closest to the reporter in the group start to reply how grateful they where over Thaksin and how they want him to come back.

I tell you, it was freaking insane, scary and absolute nuts.

Yes, the channel is owned by members of the family itself, but this unhindered propaganda goes out 24/7.

Everyone has their propaganda channels. Look at The Nation ;-)

But this reminds me that I saw that ASTV satellite stopped broadcasting because Sondi owes 12m Bht to the satellite company. They are still broadcasting (internet, etc) but not on satellite.

And given how biased and agenda driven many media outlets are, it always makes me laugh when people here label someone like Nick Nostitz as biased. There you have someone who actually does the hard work, goes out, takes photos, documents, and reports on what he witnessed. He gets slammed from all sides because he is not aligned with one side or another.

[DP25]

While the gf was flipping between news now I saw some from VoiceTV where a reporter in the field, during an introduction to people standing waist-high in flood water, talked for 40 second and 3(!) times mention 'Thaksin Shinawatra' (full name), and ends with 'So what do you want to tell Khun Thaksin' (said in Thai) and the man closest to the reporter in the group start to reply how grateful they where over Thaksin and how they want him to come back.

I tell you, it was freaking insane, scary and absolute nuts.

Yes, the channel is owned by members of the family itself, but this unhindered propaganda goes out 24/7.

Even after the flood drains away, this country will still be knee deep in bs

[Maestro]

A post advocating violence and the replies to it have been deleted.