Flood-Hit Thailand Declines Offer Of Help: US Navy

[gl555]

I would be entirely unsurprised if the agenda behind this alleged rejection was to further undermine the current government. Of course the US government would never interfere like that, so maybe I am being paranoid. Possibly the Thais looked at the US efforts in Katrina and said "Thanks, but no thanks"?

BTW, if you want to look for examples of government's rejecting needed aid, look no further than the USA:

Katrina aid from Cuba? No thanks, says U.S. America welcomes foreign help, except from an old Cold War foe

http://www.msnbc.msn...thanks-says-us/

That was an offer of 1100 urgently needed English speaking doctors for Katrina. Hate to break it to you, but Thailand is far from the only nation that is worried about 'face'.

I hesitate to criticise the US but at times they are not too clever and overweening in their assessments. During WW2 many sailors lost their lives thanks to the US not installing a convoy system and operating a blackout along their eastern seaboard, many aircraft and their crews were lost when making escorted daylight raids on Germany without fighter cover, the Mulberry harbour that was allocated to them for the invasion of Europe was smashed up and made unusable because they laid out only half the anchors recommended. All of these happened because they just wouldn't listen to Brit advice. Compare Westmoreland's tactics in Vietnam with those of Templer's In Malaya and look at the outcome of those situations. This is not an attempt to bad mouth the US, I have worked in that country on three separate occasions and have several American friends, but loss of face and downright pigheadedness are not exclusively Thai traits.

On a lighter note one thing that the US Army excels at is creating and developing a black market, Hollywood even made films about that. Maybe the powers in Thailand wanted all the cream for themselves?.

Seriously? A country offers us help in a crisis and all you can do is make fun fun of them?

The Americans have their faults but they have always been the first to offer their assistance in a humanitarian crisis.

[animatic]

was it China whispering into political ears?

The whole thing is played out politically, very much to the distress of the flood victims. This is a crime in itself when emergencies are sidetracked by political maneuvers.

A good point since Dr. T and the Chinese are thick as thieves on the Bt. 400 billion plane to prevent future flooding and the 'high speed' railroad scheme.

Yes, can't let the USA get any more regional hegemony if it can be helped, and if some little peasants die because of that, well the proletariat must do what's best for the party.

YUCK!

Edited October 25, 2011 by thaiphoon

[elcent]

The story is a little bit different. This is of course the spin that the politicized Nation gives on it. But other sources clearly state that the Thai army leadership was not really happy with it. Bloomberg News is even quoting that the Navy leadership told them that the flood was not as bad as it seemed. But than again the Thai army is never working for but mostly working against the people. So no news really here.

there's a paranoia happening on some levels in the T-Army. Instead of negotiating the relief operation and to appoint army personal to US-Navy for observing the operations, they're twisting around.

Sad state indeed.

Water is scarce, medicine will run out shortly. Food supply has dangerously slowed down. Remember it's getting grilling hot at the moment.which will be the main reason for illnesses.

[ElVez]

As one is aware, the United States and Thailand have been "friends" through out the Vietnam War era and afterwards. Annually there is military training done with the Thai army and navy from the US forces. The Thai government accepts this with no problem. It is a "shocker" for the Thai goverrnment NOT to accept help from the American military that has the resources of helicopters and men to assist in this massive, MASSIVE tragedy. I suppose "saving face" has something to do with it???? - Who knows.

If I remember correctly, the USA accepted foreign assistance with the Katrina flooding. All civilized countries accept help (such as Japan this year) when they need to save lives during a tragedy. (ok, Burma does not-- is Thailand wabt to be likeBurma?)

The US and Thailand have been friends since 1945 when the US prevented Great Brittain from classifying Thailand as the enemy and occupying it.

I think you may want to go back a few more years to Lincoln's time when he (the U.S.) gave horses to Thailand.

Wasn't it that Thailand gave or wanted to give some elephants to the USA?

[wintermute]

I don't see where all the hypocritical comments are coming from. Have the E.U. nations offered any help at all?

Maybe Brits can send pompous ass David Beckham over to wag his willy at Thai tv cameras.

The French can send Sarkozy and his sideshow model wife.

The Germans can send their ladyboy female PM over to entertain us at a cabaret.

Until E.U. nations offer anything (at all) then shut up with criticizing the U.S.

I think a few dutchmen showed up and looked at some dykes in between trips to soi cowboy.

[Buchholz]

The story is a little bit different. This is of course the spin that the politicized Nation gives on it. But other sources clearly state that the Thai army leadership was not really happy with it. Bloomberg News is even quoting that the Navy leadership told them that the flood was not as bad as it seemed. But than again the Thai army is never working for but mostly working against the people. So no news really here.

What are you babbling about?

The OP is from AFP.

There are no Nation or Bloomberg articles in this thread.

[harryfrompattaya]

Thailand doesn't need major help and being seen to do so would be more than losing face, it would affect the country's international standing - credit, investment the baht etc - they didn't ask for aid at the time of the tsunami and they won't ask now. They have ample capital reserves anyhow.

the only aid they may ask for is in some specialist areas........ engineering, dykes, medical advice.

What would they do with a US ship?

Agreed. Just because some of the TV hardy perennials are having to move upstairs and have to use a 'bush toilet'* for the next few weeks, it doesn't mean Thailand needs major disaster relief.... ever.

Look at page 2A of today's Nation for Moody's comment on Thailand's creditworthiness. I bet the US and Italians are spewing at that!

* Hint: before dropping a log, check which way the current is flowing.

You'll thank me for it.

You are right the Thia Baht got stronger in the last month. Thailand credit is higher than US and the EU. Soon the one Baht for one dollar.

Thailand was afraid America will ask for a loan.

[bangkokrick]

Bucholz,

The point is that they have not rejected help from the US if a US ship is providing help. It's futile arguing over a detail when the country is facing disaster

[wintermute]

Bucholz,

The point is that they have not rejected help from the US if a US ship is providing help. It's futile arguing over a detail when the country is facing disaster

10 marines lifting sandbags from a destroyer is not really called accepting aid. A carrier could provide the logistics of a small city.

[JohnAllan]

I should be able to say I am gobsmacked . . but TiT.

We all know about Thais and their oft ridiculous 'face', but with catastrophe dragging the stable door in its wake, just how stupid are they [the authorities]?

[harryfrompattaya]

I don't see where all the hypocritical comments are coming from. Have the E.U. nations offered any help at all?

Maybe Brits can send pompous ass David Beckham over to wag his willy at Thai tv cameras.

The French can send Sarkozy and his sideshow model wife.

The Germans can send their ladyboy female PM over to entertain us at a cabaret.

Until E.U. nations offer anything (at all) then shut up with criticizing the U.S.

I think a few dutchmen showed up and looked at some dykes in between trips to soi cowboy.

Please remember the the EU nations are still upset about the out come of World War 2

They need aid again from America and anyone else.

[wintermute]

The E.U. is busy providing emergency relief in the form of endless cash injections into Greece and other failing E.U. nation states right now to worry about other people.

[bangkokrick]

Bucholz,

The point is that they have not rejected help from the US if a US ship is providing help. It's futile arguing over a detail when the country is facing disaster

10 marines lifting sandbags from a destroyer is not really called accepting aid. A carrier could provide the logistics of a small city.

If you read my posts you will see that I am totally in favour of the US fleet helping Thailand and oddly enough I am a Brit. Aid is aid period.

[zydeco]

Bucholz,

The point is that they have not rejected help from the US if a US ship is providing help. It's futile arguing over a detail when the country is facing disaster

There is a slight difference in capabilities b/w a carrier task force and a single guided missile destroyer.

[newermonkey]

To refuse help from the US is bordering on insanity. What is better, to lose 'face' or to lose lives?

The way things are going the Government will end up begging for International help. The flood is the tip of the iceberg,as the coming diseases are going to be the biggest problem.

Why do you think like this?

The USA is trying to make MONEY out of other peoples suffering - all countries that accept "The offer" will be handed a HUGE OVER INFLATED BILL later on, of course this can be negotiated later on BUT SELLING your PEOPLES SOLES to the DEVIL is not the right way to go.

Face up to the real world Rick, as the Thai politicians obviously do, they are not stupid as you are inferring.

I think like this because there are many people in Thailand that need urgent help. There are food and water shortages and I am sure that the US could help with this problem. Their helicopters would also come in very handy.With reference to payback I think that you are being paranoid.

No, I am serious the invoice typically would read as follows: Helicopter time = @ US$11,350. per hour x 50 = US$ 567,500 ---- 300 mud shovels (US army issue) @ US$200 x 300 = US$60,000 --- etc.... etc... the prices the US government charge is outrageous so if the Thai Government and authorities can just about manage on their own its far better than accepting help. its like "with friends like these who need enemies"?

In comparison when the Thai army or navy runs a bell helicopter for one hour the cost is set at around Baht 45,000 (US$ 1,459) See the difference?

[Riely]

And this is what the poor people get for voting in these Red Shirt scumbags. Disgusting.

[rametindallas]

It makes sense for the Thai military to refuse aid because it would be a major loss of face for outside military help to come and do a far better job with superior logistics/equipment involved.

Plus they are probably planning on instituting a coup sometime down the road and foreign military presence would complicate things.

The Thai military relies on the US military for equipment, training, and other support. They have 0 friends in the current government. Why would the Thai military piss off their good friend and benefactor the US military with such an insult. The US and every other government can see how corrupt and singleminded this government is to bring back the criminal, Dr. Thaksin and restore his wealth and power. Your theory requires an awful lot of ifs, perhaps, and probablys. You lose.

[JohnAllan]

I don't see where all the hypocritical comments are coming from. Have the E.U. nations offered any help at all? Maybe Brits can send pompous ass David Beckham over to wag his willy at Thai tv cameras. The French can send Sarkozy and his sideshow model wife. The Germans can send their ladyboy female PM over to entertain us at a cabaret. Until E.U. nations offer anything (at all) then shut up with criticizing the U.S. I think a few dutchmen showed up and looked at some dykes in between trips to soi cowboy.

The Brits send pompous ass, David Beckham? Can you explain that one, please? Something got lost in the translation somewhere.

Edited October 25, 2011 by JohnAllan

[rametindallas]

I would be entirely unsurprised if the agenda behind this alleged rejection was to further undermine the current government. Of course the US government would never interfere like that, so maybe I am being paranoid. Possibly the Thais looked at the US efforts in Katrina and said "Thanks, but no thanks"?

BTW, if you want to look for examples of government's rejecting needed aid, look no further than the USA:

Katrina aid from Cuba? No thanks, says U.S. America welcomes foreign help, except from an old Cold War foe

http://www.msnbc.msn...thanks-says-us/

That was an offer of 1100 urgently needed English speaking doctors for Katrina. Hate to break it to you, but Thailand is far from the only nation that is worried about 'face'.

I hesitate to criticise the US but at times they are not too clever and overweening in their assessments. During WW2 many sailors lost their lives thanks to the US not installing a convoy system and operating a blackout along their eastern seaboard, many aircraft and their crews were lost when making escorted daylight raids on Germany without fighter cover, the Mulberry harbour that was allocated to them for the invasion of Europe was smashed up and made unusable because they laid out only half the anchors recommended. All of these happened because they just wouldn't listen to Brit advice. Compare Westmoreland's tactics in Vietnam with those of Templer's In Malaya and look at the outcome of those situations. This is not an attempt to bad mouth the US, I have worked in that country on three separate occasions and have several American friends, but loss of face and downright pigheadedness are not exclusively Thai traits.

On a lighter note one thing that the US Army excels at is creating and developing a black market, Hollywood even made films about that. Maybe the powers in Thailand wanted all the cream for themselves?.

What cream? Troll

[Buchholz]

There were news stories last week, and I will have to summarize from memory, that said the U.S. had about 20 helicopters available at Don Muang. The PM stated they would fall under the supervision of the Thai Air Force Commander.

The U.S. said they would provide up to 85 more if needed and requested in the coming weeks. Not only could they be used for rescue and supply drops, but for heavy lifting to place flood barriers, sand bags, etc.

The Air Force Commander stated that everyone that need rescue or evacuation had already been taken care of. He stated many people were staying in place, and that they could be supplied with trucks and boats, helicopters are not necessary. He also stated that it was too dangerous to fly so many helicopters at the same time. Unbelievable!

I was surprised there was not much reaction to this on T.V. at the time. Now it is a major topic. Soon after there were stories of not enough boats with motors to reach the stranded population.

Could you please link at least one of the stories?

I'm not finding results to any news article that match your word strings except for your post here.

.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Buchholz

[wintermute]

No, I am serious the invoice typically would read as follows: Helicopter time = @ US$11,350. per hour x 50 = US$ 567,500 ---- 300 mud shovels (US army issue) @ US$200 x 300 = US$60,000 --- etc.... etc... the prices the US government charge is outrageous so if the Thai Government and authorities can just about manage on their own its far better than accepting help. its like "with friends like these who need enemies"?

In comparison when the Thai army or navy runs a bell helicopter for one hour the cost is set at around Baht 45,000 (US$ 1,459) See the difference?

No but you see the cost ends up much higher because the Thai military will crash 4 out of 5 of every helicopter in flight thus increasing their overhead expense.

[ElVez]

I would be entirely unsurprised if the agenda behind this alleged rejection was to further undermine the current government. Of course the US government would never interfere like that, so maybe I am being paranoid. Possibly the Thais looked at the US efforts in Katrina and said "Thanks, but no thanks"?

BTW, if you want to look for examples of government's rejecting needed aid, look no further than the USA:

Katrina aid from Cuba? No thanks, says U.S. America welcomes foreign help, except from an old Cold War foe

That was an offer of 1100 urgently needed English speaking doctors for Katrina. Hate to break it to you, but Thailand is far from the only nation that is worried about 'face'.

Looking at all these responses on this thread and others, so many people report these kinds of "well the US did the same thing"-style arguments. Yes, the US has refused certain foreign aid before, but, in the example you're pointing out here, don't you think that 1) the richest country in the world, with 2) the absolutely best trained doctors (whether US or foreign born) could and did organize a very robust response without the aid of other nations? The answer is "yes".

Can you make the argument for Thailand currently as to their ability to organize a robust response to the flooding? The answer is "no". And, therein lies the 'different', no? Two different disasters; two different abilities to respond. So, while your statement is true in the form of: IF A THEN B , it is NOT true in the form of: THEREFORE IF B THEN A.

Why do so many people enjoy criticizing the US in this matter? It's strange.

Because it seems to be the worlds hobby. Take or dont take aid, and complain about the US.

Example Indira Ghandi in India accepted millions of dollars in American aid, and then turned around and said bad things about them. That is not a way to show gratitude, nor is it a professional response of a national leader, she should have been ashamed.

As for PM Yingluck, i think she just wants to prove to everyone that she can handle the problem without help from anyone,[ no matter how many Thais have to die and be homeless and suffer from illness and poverty], in order to prove it.

To offer help is nice, but why turn into insults when the offer is declined? Thats a pretty ugly attitude. Seems that not only the Thais who said 'No, thanks' have some big ego problems.

[JohnAllan]

To refuse help from the US is bordering on insanity. What is better, to lose 'face' or to lose lives?

The way things are going the Government will end up begging for International help. The flood is the tip of the iceberg,as the coming diseases are going to be the biggest problem.

Why do you think like this?

The USA is trying to make MONEY out of other peoples suffering - all countries that accept "The offer" will be handed a HUGE OVER INFLATED BILL later on, of course this can be negotiated later on BUT SELLING your PEOPLES SOLES to the DEVIL is not the right way to go.

Face up to the real world Rick, as the Thai politicians obviously do, they are not stupid as you are inferring.

I think like this because there are many people in Thailand that need urgent help. There are food and water shortages and I am sure that the US could help with this problem. Their helicopters would also come in very handy.With reference to payback I think that you are being paranoid.

No, I am serious the invoice typically would read as follows: Helicopter time = @ US$11,350. per hour x 50 = US$ 567,500 ---- 300 mud shovels (US army issue) @ US$200 x 300 = US$60,000 --- etc.... etc... the prices the US government charge is outrageous so if the Thai Government and authorities can just about manage on their own its far better than accepting help. its like "with friends like these who need enemies"?

In comparison when the Thai army or navy runs a bell helicopter for one hour the cost is set at around Baht 45,000 (US$ 1,459) See the difference?

Be sure to tell us when you are joking.

[sbk]

To refuse help from the US is bordering on insanity. What is better, to lose 'face' or to lose lives?

The way things are going the Government will end up begging for International help. The flood is the tip of the iceberg,as the coming diseases are going to be the biggest problem.

Why do you think like this?

The USA is trying to make MONEY out of other peoples suffering - all countries that accept "The offer" will be handed a HUGE OVER INFLATED BILL later on, of course this can be negotiated later on BUT SELLING your PEOPLES SOLES to the DEVIL is not the right way to go.

Face up to the real world Rick, as the Thai politicians obviously do, they are not stupid as you are inferring.

I think like this because there are many people in Thailand that need urgent help. There are food and water shortages and I am sure that the US could help with this problem. Their helicopters would also come in very handy.With reference to payback I think that you are being paranoid.

No, I am serious the invoice typically would read as follows: Helicopter time = @ US$11,350. per hour x 50 = US$ 567,500 ---- 300 mud shovels (US army issue) @ US$200 x 300 = US$60,000 --- etc.... etc... the prices the US government charge is outrageous so if the Thai Government and authorities can just about manage on their own its far better than accepting help. its like "with friends like these who need enemies"?

In comparison when the Thai army or navy runs a bell helicopter for one hour the cost is set at around Baht 45,000 (US$ 1,459) See the difference?

Until you can come up with some kind of evidence of this kind of thing, perhaps its best if you stop posting it as fact and post it merely as your own opinion.

[rametindallas]

Bucholz,

The point is that they have not rejected help from the US if a US ship is providing help. It's futile arguing over a detail when the country is facing disaster

are you basing you case on one tweet? The only aid from the US so far, in the press, is a few million baht and some marines delivering empty sandbags. When you have more than a tweet, please share your source. Thanks

Edited October 25, 2011 by rametindallas

[angeledge]

...today the US help you, tomorrow they'll be ready to reclaim the favor and put it in your a**...

and don't tell me it never happened before

Yeah..........yippie. Finally someone who hits the nail on the head.

US starts moving 3 battle ships into the Thai Gulf.......offer their help which is declined and then they start to moan that their help is declined.

Please US, stay out of this and solve your own shit first. (Oh and please do not refer to the Marshall plan, that was more than 60 years ago and Europe is still suffering.)

Help should come from UN and Red Cross. US is represented in both organisation and that should do it.

Just so I get it right: HERE we are, facing a crisis in drinking water ( i assume) like never before in the history of Thailand. And THERE is a nuclear powered battle-ship, that can produce hundreds of thousands of liters EVERY <deleted> SINGLE DAY and you send them away , because you don't like them? Nobody asked you to hang out with them on Nana! No one asked you to make a pilgrimage to the harbour every evening and praise them! They offered help and I am afraid, we will need all the help we can get! Soon! So put your sentiments behind you for who-ever-you-pray-to's sake!

So far there is no indication as to who exactly refused USA naval help.

There are 6 pages of assumption here that it was the Prime minister or her team.

Given that she has already invited U.S.relief efforts and previously asked for, and accepted U.S. helicopter support it might be unlikely that it was her personal refusal of help from the U.S. Navy.

So, exactly who turned down this offer of assistance ??

Any ideas ???

The Navy are saying there was one channel of acceptance and one of " no thanks".

Be nice to know who said no and why.

The prime minister is always the leader. If she say no and the army say yes, it is no. If she yes and the army say no, it is yes. Pretty easy yo deduct who refuse US help.

Also, those who say that US always want something in return, i remember last year, in Sarnia,Ontario, Canada. There had a massive snowstorm and many people were stuck in their car on the highway. You know what, Canadian and American army were there to help, without asking for anything in exchange. This is not about loosing the face, this is about friendship and we, Canada, do the same when something happen in the US.

It is clear that this government can not handle the situation. Also not good for relations between those 2 countries.

[hawker9000]

... it's all pretty disturbing ... can anyone comment on protocols that would warrant a UN intervention to prevent human disaster, without an invitation from the Thai government? ... at what point do Thais need to be protected from the Thais?

... these people seem just too incompetent to care for themselves ... freakishly incompetent

Not a road the UN wants to go down, or one I would want them to. A military intervention on the pretext that the host government is incompetent!? Violent repression is one thing (Libya, Syria , ???), but forcible intervention on the pretext that the host government is incompetent - the evidence being that it refuses outside help in a time of perceived crisis? The Thais DID elect this government. It WAS their choice. In principle, a decision to refuse outside help by a duly elected government IS the people's decision. 'Not saying the decision to refuse help here is a good or bad decision: but it does go to show all of us the kinds of repercussions voters' choices at the polls can have...

[Buchholz]

No, I am serious the invoice typically would read as follows: Helicopter time = @ US$11,350. per hour x 50 = US$ 567,500 ---- 300 mud shovels (US army issue) @ US$200 x 300 = US$60,000 --- etc.... etc... the prices the US government charge is outrageous so if the Thai Government and authorities can just about manage on their own its far better than accepting help. its like "with friends like these who need enemies"?

In comparison when the Thai army or navy runs a bell helicopter for one hour the cost is set at around Baht 45,000 (US$ 1,459) See the difference?

Yet again with the imagined bills and invoices... for the third time.

for something that has none.

.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Buchholz

[emilyb]

No, I am serious the invoice typically would read as follows: Helicopter time = @ US$11,350. per hour x 50 = US$ 567,500 ---- 300 mud shovels (US army issue) @ US$200 x 300 = US$60,000 --- etc.... etc... the prices the US government charge is outrageous so if the Thai Government and authorities can just about manage on their own its far better than accepting help. its like "with friends like these who need enemies"?

In comparison when the Thai army or navy runs a bell helicopter for one hour the cost is set at around Baht 45,000 (US$ 1,459) See the difference?

Source, please? If this is commonplace then there will be public reporting of it and I would be interested to see it.

[sting123]

US help never comes for free and the hidden payback is always much bigger than the actual help.

I am an Aussie and personally think the Yanks have helped all over the world in hundreads of crisis situations. I dont know of any hidden costs or paybacks to date. Can you elaborate on your comment.

If you do not mind, I may be of some help!

US of A have meddle with internal affairs of countries they were helping, in western europe, in asia, even in some africa, and we will not speak about S of A. The list can long, so I will give only some extract : Italy (Gladio network), Greece (while helping military secret services).

BUT, maybe the initial postulate was mis-writted ; and should be :

Some organisations from the United States of America have regulary trying to influence foreign governments under the cover of United State military and economic help. Those organisations being acting even without full knowledge of the legitimate governement of the United State.

So yes, there are people who hold a gruge against that undue influence; but fairness oblige to precise that most of the time the US government did not know about said influence into foreign country.

Anyway, I do believe it would be also fair (even if you despise USA as much as I do) that never ever USA have mixed urgency help and policy, the policy of the american people who come first on a disaster field have always been to help population without regard of faith, political believe or skin colour. It is AFTER those people have left that meddling start by (non exhaustive list) churches members, so called teachers, crooked economists ... people who are related to the USA gov or an official agency. Usually for humanitarian work, USA are doing a very fine job, they usually send the very best , and life are saved by thousands.