Wills

[Seismic]

My current understanding is that A legal will in Thailand is only good for monies/assets in the country and If I have assets/monies in the UK or overseas, I must also have a legally registered Will in the UK. Can anyone tell me if this is correct.

I would be leaving all my assets to my wife and daughter here in Thailand. Said assets include private pension schemes, 401K US scheme, Company pension and any other assets.

regards

[kunash]

short answer if yes, you will need a Will for each country.

[AyG]

I beg to differ. A Thai will can cover one's assets globally; there's no need for a second will. However, having two wills will undoubtedly make it easier for your executor(s).

[Swiss1960]

Legally, their can not be two wills, their is always only 1 will for 1 person which includes every asset globally.

While I can not speak for Thailand, as a Swiss citizen, I can do a will in Thailand, sign it in front of two witnesses who must confirm that they have seen me sign and date it personally and this will be a legal will for Switzerland.

Of course, now I can either keep this will at home and hope that somebody finds it, likes what is inside and does not destroy it... or I do send it back to Switzerland to my district of origin and they will keep it and assign an executor when I pass away. Whether this is true also in Thailand, I would not know.

Problem with 2 wills is that they might deviate from each other (and the smallest deviation could lead to huge problems) and it would be unclear which of the wills (specially if dated on the same day) should take precedence...

So if you hate your surviving family... write to wills, have them both legally signed, dated on the same day... and have different beneficiaries in each will

[astral]

Wills made overseas, for example in the UK or US, are accepted by the Thai courts.

I cannot see why the opposite would not be true.

[AyG]

Legally, their can not be two wills, their is always only 1 will for 1 person which includes every asset globally.

While I can not speak for Thailand, as a Swiss citizen, I can do a will in Thailand, sign it in front of two witnesses who must confirm that they have seen me sign and date it personally and this will be a legal will for Switzerland.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Yes, there can be two wills. They need to be drafted carefully to ensure they don't invalidate each other. It's definitely possible. (Boilerplate text along the lines of "I hereby revoke all former wills and codicils" can be a problem.) Each will does, though, need clearly to specify to which assets it relates.

A will in Thailand doesn't need to be witnessed if it's handwritten (a so-called "holographic will") - and it can be in any language, not just Thai.

[thaibeachlovers]

Of course you need a will for each country. Just make sure that the one in Thailand states that it's just for Thailand, and the one in your home country does not mention anything in Thailand.

It would be a nightmare trying to use a will in one country for the other.

[Rimmer]

There is a very good 'Pinned' topic on wills HERE

[Swiss1960]

First a thank to Rimmer, very helpful link to the procedures in Thailand.

Of course you need a will for each country. Just make sure that the one in Thailand states that it's just for Thailand, and the one in your home country does not mention anything in Thailand.

It would be a nightmare trying to use a will in one country for the other.

That, my dear beachlover, is not fully correct!

1) I can write a will in Thailand by hand, sign and date it and have two witnesses confirm my signature. This will is a valid will for any Swiss authority who would be approached with this will.

2) Obviously now I learned from Rimmers link that I can have this will legally deposited in Thailand. I can do the same thing in Switzerland with the same will. That means I have one single will and have it registered in all countries where I have funds to be distributed.

3) Two different wills can not exist under Swiss Civil Code. It clearly states that the will with the latest date is the will that counts, as long as it is legally valid (and it does not need to be notarized as long as it is hand-written by myself and signed by two witnesses).

4) The only exception under Swiss Civil Code is made, if an amendment to the first will is made which clearly states that it is an amendment!

Otherwise, the following could happen:

a ) I make a will in Switzerland before I leave for Thailand and do not specifically list the items in question and put my Swiss sons as beneficiaries.

b ) Later, I make a will in Thailand for another beneficiary (thai wife, thai kids..) and again, do not specifically mention the items in question.

When I pass away, the second will from Thailand will supersede the first will in Switzerland, as again, a legally valid will (handwirtten, dated, signed and witnessed) does not need notarization and deposit in Switzerland. That means that my Thai survivors could take that second will to Switzerland and claim it to be valid over my Swiss will and my Swiss sons would loose all!

So if you want to have two wills for two countries, as you stated, each will must have clear delimits / demarcations to the other one, else your beneficiaries in the two countries will loose all you wanted them to have through lawyer fees.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Swiss1960

[Langsuan Man]

If you have substantial assets in both countries then spend a few baht and have a Thai lawyer advise you (if he prepares a will for you just make sure your significant other has a copy of the final one)

I am a big fan of DIY, but sometimes it pays to have an expert do it for you

[AyG]

If you have substantial assets in both countries then spend a few baht and have a Thai lawyer advise you (if he prepares a will for you just make sure your significant other has a copy of the final one)

If your significant other finds out you have substantial assets and sees a copy of your will you might find your life expectancy suddenly drops.

Incidentally Thai law allows for multiple copies of a holographic will, with equal status. Not sure about duplicates for the two other kinds of will.

[Spaniel]

Legally, their can not be two wills, their is always only 1 will for 1 person which includes every asset globally.

While I can not speak for Thailand, as a Swiss citizen, I can do a will in Thailand, sign it in front of two witnesses who must confirm that they have seen me sign and date it personally and this will be a legal will for Switzerland.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Yes, there can be two wills. They need to be drafted carefully to ensure they don't invalidate each other. It's definitely possible. (Boilerplate text along the lines of "I hereby revoke all former wills and codicils" can be a problem.) Each will does, though, need clearly to specify to which assets it relates.

A will in Thailand doesn't need to be witnessed if it's handwritten (a so-called "holographic will") - and it can be in any language, not just Thai.

So if I want to leave my condo in Pattaya to my son all I have to do is write my will out and sign it and this is legal? Why bother with a lawyer if this is so easy? Of course for a more complicated estate I suppose a lawyer would be a good idea.

[thaibeachlovers]

First a thank to Rimmer, very helpful link to the procedures in Thailand.

Of course you need a will for each country. Just make sure that the one in Thailand states that it's just for Thailand, and the one in your home country does not mention anything in Thailand.

It would be a nightmare trying to use a will in one country for the other.

That, my dear beachlover, is not fully correct!

1) I can write a will in Thailand by hand, sign and date it and have two witnesses confirm my signature. This will is a valid will for any Swiss authority who would be approached with this will.

2) Obviously now I learned from Rimmers link that I can have this will legally deposited in Thailand. I can do the same thing in Switzerland with the same will. That means I have one single will and have it registered in all countries where I have funds to be distributed.

3) Two different wills can not exist under Swiss Civil Code. It clearly states that the will with the latest date is the will that counts, as long as it is legally valid (and it does not need to be notarized as long as it is hand-written by myself and signed by two witnesses).

4) The only exception under Swiss Civil Code is made, if an amendment to the first will is made which clearly states that it is an amendment!

Otherwise, the following could happen:

a ) I make a will in Switzerland before I leave for Thailand and do not specifically list the items in question and put my Swiss sons as beneficiaries.

b ) Later, I make a will in Thailand for another beneficiary (thai wife, thai kids..) and again, do not specifically mention the items in question.

When I pass away, the second will from Thailand will supersede the first will in Switzerland, as again, a legally valid will (handwirtten, dated, signed and witnessed) does not need notarization and deposit in Switzerland. That means that my Thai survivors could take that second will to Switzerland and claim it to be valid over my Swiss will and my Swiss sons would loose all!

So if you want to have two wills for two countries, as you stated, each will must have clear delimits / demarcations to the other one, else your beneficiaries in the two countries will loose all you wanted them to have through lawyer fees.

Ah, perhaps if one has lots of valuable property etc it would be advisable to have a single will registered in both.

However, in my case, I have a will in my home country detailing what happens to the property ( only personal effects, no houses or anything of much value ) there, and another in Thailand giving all my money in a THAI bank to my wife. Neither mentions assets in the other country. When I kick the bucket, I can't see my wife buying a plane ticket to try and dispute a will in another country.

[Headgame]

There are many countries that do not have any mechanism for registering wills prior to death.

A will in effect does not become a "legal document" until death.

It is most advisable to have only one will that covers all global assets, specifically revokes all prior wills and is witnessed by at least two competent adults.

Many countries require sworn affidavits from the witnesses to the will affirming that they saw the will signed.

A properly drafted and executed Thai will is going to be recognized in just about every western jurisdiction but beware of specific issues such as witness affidavits in some countries.

[ExpatJ]

its no problem - as long as no one contests the will.

[scorecard]

Don't be too quick to listen to the armchair experts, get some proper legal advice from a reputable lawyer.

[Langsuan Man]

If you have substantial assets in both countries then spend a few baht and have a Thai lawyer advise you (if he prepares a will for you just make sure your significant other has a copy of the final one)

I am a big fan of DIY, but sometimes it pays to have an expert do it for you

Most Thais are very distrustful of lawyers (gee, I wonder why) and that is the purpose of making sure that someone other than the lawyer has a copy

It is quite easy for a lawyer to change a Will once you are no longer there to validate it

I trust my "simple" Will with my Amphur since they have controls in place to insure that it cannot be changed once in their possession

[Headgame]

its no problem - as long as no one contests the will.

Probate requirements vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and many require swrn affidavits from witnesses.

BTW, retired lawyer with 40 years experience.

[nong38]

I would have thought that one will "for all my assets in Thailand" and one will "for all my assets in Anyland" would be fine provided that the phrase " this revokes all previous wills ( or similar ) are not present. I wish to leave my UK possessions and assets to my children in the UK and what I have here is Thailand to my wife here. Both parties understand this is my position and what each of them will find in the will that concerns them.

[AyG]

I would have thought that one will "for all my assets in Thailand" and one will "for all my assets in Anyland" would be fine provided that the phrase " this revokes all previous wills ( or similar ) are not present. I wish to leave my UK possessions and assets to my children in the UK and what I have here is Thailand to my wife here. Both parties understand this is my position and what each of them will find in the will that concerns them.

Correct. There have been problem in the past with one country's will revoking another country's.

The exact wording of my Thai will (drawn up by a Thai legal firm) is:

1. Confirmation of Wills. I can confirm that this will be my only will produced in Thailand with regards to the below mentioned property. I also have a will produced in England with regards to the property in Europe only. I intend a will in Thailand shall be in effect only the property in Thailand and a will in England shall be in effect only the property in Europe. I do not wish this will in Thailand to revoke a will in England.
   
2. การรับรองพินัยกรรม ข้าพเจ้าสามารถรับรองได้ว่าพินัยกรรมฉบับนี้เป็นพินัยกรรมของข้าพเจ้าซึ่งจัดทำขึ้นเพียงฉบับเดียวในประเทศไทยเพื่อทรัพย์สิน (ทรัพย์มรดก)ของข้าพเจ้าที่ระบุในพินัยกรรมฉบับนี้เท่านั้นทั้งนี้ข้าพเจ้ามีพินัยกรรมอีกหนึ่งฉบับในประเทศอังกฤษเพื่อทรัพย์สิน (ทรัพย์มรดก)ของข้าพเจ้าในยุโรปเท่านั้นเช่นกันซึ่งข้าพเจ้าประสงค์ให้พินัยกรรมในประเทศไทยมีผลบังคับเฉพาะทรัพย์สินในประเทศไทยและพินัยกรรมในประเทศอังกฤษมีผลบังคับเฉพาะทรัพย์สินในยุโรปเท่านั้นข้าพเจ้าไม่ประสงค์ให้พินัยกรรมฉบับนี้มีผลเป็นการเพิกถอนพินัยกรรมในประเทศอังกฤษ

[up2you2]

"I would be leaving all my assets/monies in the UK or overseas, to my wife and daughter here in Thailand".

Sounds a bit harrowing to say the least.

UK probate would have to be filed, the Inland Revenue notified, potential death duties/IHT paid, two strings of lawyers to carry out this work, all documents to be translated - some officially.

To wind up an Estate like this I think you would be looking at a minimum of two years.

Further more the costs of all the fees, charges and taxes could well have quire a bearing on this Estate.

I would personally form a Trust to get around all of these issues.

[nong38]

"I would be leaving all my assets/monies in the UK or overseas, to my wife and daughter here in Thailand".

Sounds a bit harrowing to say the least.

UK probate would have to be filed, the Inland Revenue notified, potential death duties/IHT paid, two strings of lawyers to carry out this work, all documents to be translated - some officially.

To wind up an Estate like this I think you would be looking at a minimum of two years.

Further more the costs of all the fees, charges and taxes could well have quire a bearing on this Estate.

I would personally form a Trust to get around all of these issues.

A trust is a possibility but you have to be careful that the kids dont take charge and knock you off for one reason or another.

So long as both parties ( UK and Thailand ) dont mention the other then it should work out all ok.

As far as Thalinad is concerned I see it like this. Any assets are likely to be a form of transport, possibly property ( condo ) but if its a house then it will already be the wife's name so no contest. That really just leaves cash or cash at bank, This could be in a joint accoutn so again no contest. If its in your name alone then you can get your wife's name on it as a 2nd signatury which will slove a lot of legal issues, in fact it wont of much interest to you as you're dead so she can get her hands on things without recourse to producing the will unless there is a requirement to do so.

[nong38]

I would have thought that one will "for all my assets in Thailand" and one will "for all my assets in Anyland" would be fine provided that the phrase " this revokes all previous wills ( or similar ) are not present. I wish to leave my UK possessions and assets to my children in the UK and what I have here is Thailand to my wife here. Both parties understand this is my position and what each of them will find in the will that concerns them.

Correct. There have been problem in the past with one country's will revoking another country's.

The exact wording of my Thai will (drawn up by a Thai legal firm) is:

1. Confirmation of Wills. I can confirm that this will be my only will produced in Thailand with regards to the below mentioned property. I also have a will produced in England with regards to the property in Europe only. I intend a will in Thailand shall be in effect only the property in Thailand and a will in England shall be in effect only the property in Europe. I do not wish this will in Thailand to revoke a will in England.
   
2. การรับรองพินัยกรรม ข้าพเจ้าสามารถรับรองได้ว่าพินัยกรรมฉบับนี้เป็นพินัยกรรมของข้าพเจ้าซึ่งจัดทำขึ้นเพียงฉบับเดียวในประเทศไทยเพื่อทรัพย์สิน (ทรัพย์มรดก)ของข้าพเจ้าที่ระบุในพินัยกรรมฉบับนี้เท่านั้นทั้งนี้ข้าพเจ้ามีพินัยกรรมอีกหนึ่งฉบับในประเทศอังกฤษเพื่อทรัพย์สิน (ทรัพย์มรดก)ของข้าพเจ้าในยุโรปเท่านั้นเช่นกันซึ่งข้าพเจ้าประสงค์ให้พินัยกรรมในประเทศไทยมีผลบังคับเฉพาะทรัพย์สินในประเทศไทยและพินัยกรรมในประเทศอังกฤษมีผลบังคับเฉพาะทรัพย์สินในยุโรปเท่านั้นข้าพเจ้าไม่ประสงค์ให้พินัยกรรมฉบับนี้มีผลเป็นการเพิกถอนพินัยกรรมในประเทศอังกฤษ

Looks a pretty good template to me, dont know if I would want to mention another will in another country, could be a come for the legal chaps make a bit of extra cash, best keep stum and choose the words accordingly, for my thoughts anyway.

[Headgame]

Bottom line is simple - a properly drafted will can cover all global assets.

It is always the best policy to not raise the possibility that, if there is one will will in Thailand and another in Australia or wherever, then there could be even more wills kicking around.

Probate courts like to operate on the basis that there is only ONE last will and testament. That's why almost all boilerplate wills revoke all previous wills - that format has been adjudicated many times in courts so as to avoid oral or other "evidence" that there is possibly another will some place. Could cause probate delays.

The strangest things happen when people die and there are assets to fight over.

[cardholder]

If you have substantial assets in both countries then spend a few baht and have a Thai lawyer advise you (if he prepares a will for you just make sure your significant other has a copy of the final one)

I am a big fan of DIY, but sometimes it pays to have an expert do it for you

Most Thais are very distrustful of lawyers (gee, I wonder why) and that is the purpose of making sure that someone other than the lawyer has a copy

It is quite easy for a lawyer to change a Will once you are no longer there to validate it

I trust my "simple" Will with my Amphur since they have controls in place to insure that it cannot be changed once in their possession

You missed a bit off............. "unless anyone pays them enough to do otherwise"

If they can sign off a divorce for a falang who is not in the country, they can do anything.