Major Panic - Please Advise

[Derkerdog]

Don't ask me how, but I've managed to let my wife's spouse visa expire one week ago. I realised this last night and spent this morning finding out what my options are.

She doesn't have the Life in the UK qualification, so she can't submit an application for indefinite leave to remain. She doesn't have an English qualification on their approved list (although she has a higher one), so she can't apply for further leave to remain. I've been on the phone several times to the UK Border Agency this morning, and it looks like all she can do is leave the UK asap and return to Bkk, where she can re-apply for a visa and start all over again.

How they will view her overstay I don't know, She has spent the last two years working voluntarily as a teaching assistant, and recently passed her NVQ level 2, (which qualifies her to work as a teaching assistant) and will be able to get good character and work references from the school to support her application.

So with all that in mind, I'm just writing to ask if anyone has any experience of their partner overstaying in the UK then returning to Bkk and going through the process again. I just want to get an idea whether once she leaves the uk she'll ever be able to teturn.

Many thanks for any advice -

Regards, an idiot in the UK

[bobrussell]

I would doubt that a short period of overstay will cause much of a black mark on the record. As long as it is clear that it was a genuine error and that you tried to correct at the first available opportunity, there should be minimal knock on effect. The immigration rules are not there to punish the inefficient but if the UKBA say that a new application will only be considered back in Thailand that is probably punishment enough!

If you are going to fight from within the UK may I suggest you get legal advice from a qualified immigration solicitor or a registered immigration adviser immediately. Get it wrong and your wife could get a real black mark against her! Did she enter the UK two years ago + a week? If so you still have time to get the application done. If it was 27 months + week ago get advice now!

She is your wife and this is an immigration technicality at the moment, not the crime of the century!

Don't panic but act without delay!

Best of luck and let us know what happens!

[Derkerdog]

Thanks for your reply bobrussel

She entered the UK 5/9/09, but her visa is valid from 31/7/09 to 31/10/11, so she has been in the UK less than 27 months but her visa has gone over its 27-month validity by one week and counting.

As you suggested, we have just been to see an immigration advisor. He said 'no problem' until he realised she had neither the life in the UK exam nor a recognised English language certificate. Then he shrugged and said nothing to do but go back to Thailand and do it all again. The Life in the UK test cannot now be sat, because they check the visa dates before allowing students to take it, and the English language tests all take weeks if not months to process, according to her 6th form tutor.

So it looks like she has no choice but to go back to Thailand. I just hope you're right about the overstay. The chance of her being refused over there then never being able to return to the UK doesn't bear thinking about.

We're now in the process of going through the folder we submitted for her original application so she can take it back with her. Hopefully it will be much the same this time, plus we can add her teaching assistant quals and good character references from the school. I haven't worked for ages as I've been in busy with a self-build barn conversion, but according to the advisor I'd better get a job quick in order to qualify me as a suitable sponsor.

The next step is to get a cheap (preferably direct) flight to Thailand and get her out of the country. Hopefully the worst of the flooding will pass over soon and things will return to enough normality for her to return to her home in Bangkok and prepare her application.

The reason we're in this position is a combination of neglegence and laziness, and not double-checking what I was told. I thought the life in the UK test was only for citizenship applications, and I thought her Literacy level 2 (equivalent to GCSE grade would suffice .. and to cap it off I got the dates wrong on the visa. After sweating so hard for the spouse visa, it's hard to believe you could be so stupid But I managed it!

I'll keep you informed what happens ...

I would doubt that a short period of overstay will cause much of a black mark on the record. As long as it is clear that it was a genuine error and that you tried to correct at the first available opportunity, there should be minimal knock on effect. The immigration rules are not there to punish the inefficient but if the UKBA say that a new application will only be considered back in Thailand that is probably punishment enough!

If you are going to fight from within the UK may I suggest you get legal advice from a qualified immigration solicitor or a registered immigration adviser immediately. Get it wrong and your wife could get a real black mark against her! Did she enter the UK two years ago + a week? If so you still have time to get the application done. If it was 27 months + week ago get advice now!

She is your wife and this is an immigration technicality at the moment, not the crime of the century!

Don't panic but act without delay!

Best of luck and let us know what happens!

[bobrussell]

We learn a lot about the immigration system by our mistakes! The saving grace is that it seems the processing time for all types of visa in Thailand is very short at the moment. I expect your wife will get a phone call soon after the application goes in to demand an explanation as to the overstay. I suggest she does what my wife does and says her 'husband is an idiot and it was all his fault - MEN!' I suspect it will get a chuckle and a prompt if rather expensive vignette on her passport.

Suggest she treats the visit as a holiday and a good opportunity to see friends. It might just get you enough 'brownie points'!

Edited November 8, 2011 by bobrussell

[Derkerdog]

Yes, slapping me on the head benny hill style seems the best defence at this point.

I'm glad to hear processing times are quick at the moment. I've just been looking through the application process and refreshing myself what we have to do. Her TB test has already expired, and the biometric has to be done again. She also has to take an English test now (some places here), but that shouldn't be a problem providing the certificate doesn't take months to come through.

I'd like her to be in and out of Thailand as quickly as possible, but what concerns me most - apart from the overstay - is how they will view the fact I have no job. I have around 18k in savings, but the immigration advisor we spoke to today wasn't very impressed with that. If I have to get a job and submit several months' wage slips she could be stranded there quite a while. On the other hand, if we submit it straight away and they refuse that will make things even harder next time.

I'm already starting to get that familiar knot of tension in my shoulders. And I get the feeling it's only just begun ...

We learn a lot about the immigration system by our mistakes! The saving grace is that it seems the processing time for all types of visa in Thailand is very short at the moment. I expect your wife will get a phone call soon after the application goes in to demand an explanation as to the overstay. I suggest she does what my wife does and says her 'husband is an idiot and it was all his fault - MEN!' I suspect it will get a chuckle and a prompt if rather expensive vignette on her passport.

Suggest she treats the visit as a holiday and a good opportunity to see friends. It might just get you enough 'brownie points'!

[ludditeman]

Air Asia flights to KL are currently 300UKP return (inc tax), but maybe not at the last minute.

[Derkerdog]

The cheapest I I've found so far is £630 for a three-month return from Manchester with Qatar. It's her first time flying alone so I want to make it as easy as possible

Thanks for the info -

Air Asia flights to KL are currently 300UKP return (inc tax), but maybe not at the last minute.

[paully]

what concerns me most - apart from the overstay - is how they will view the fact I have no job. I have around 18k in savings, but the immigration advisor we spoke to today wasn't very impressed with that. If I have to get a job and submit several months' wage slips she could be stranded there quite a while.

That level of savings should be okay, Derkerdog, especially if you can also submit evidence of your looking for a job and the level of salary you could realistically receive, ie copy job ads. Don't wait for the phone call from the entry clearance officer about your wife's overstay - explain it fully in the application she will submit. Good luck.

[Derkerdog]

Hi paully,

Yes I intend to include a letter of explanation about the overstay when we submit the application. They may find it implausable that someone could be neglegent enough to forget 1) the Life in UK test, 2) English lang test AND 3) visa expiry date, but unfortunately it's the truth so they' ll just have to believe it! Hopefully they deal with plenty of morons and they're used to it by now.

About my unemployment, rather than her going over there and immediately submitting an application, we are considering waiting until I can provide a couple of months' wage slips. I'm worried they will be unhappy with my using my parents as co-sponsors, and could decide to use the overstay issue as grounds for refusal. I'm unclear whether they are happy to accept savings instead of a regular income (and if so how much), or if they prefer see me earning a regular income even if it's a modest one. We've got no kids, rent to pay etc.

BTW as of September this year my wife is qualified as a teaching assistant and is now able to apply for NVQ level 2 TA positions. We've asked the school head to write her a character reference, mentioning that they will attempt to keep her present paid position (midday assistant 1 hr per day) open until she returns.

It seems to me this will be a strange spouse application in that she has already spent over two years here building a life, gaining qualifications etc and is now ready to hit the ground running when (if) she returns - probably with a better job than me! If we can provide plenty of evidence of her achievements since entering the UK (Literacy level 2, Numeracy level 2, CACHE Teaching assistant levels 1 & 2, lots of in-house training at the school, excellent attendance record etc) this will compensate for weaknesses in my sponsorship.

what concerns me most - apart from the overstay - is how they will view the fact I have no job. I have around 18k in savings, but the immigration advisor we spoke to today wasn't very impressed with that. If I have to get a job and submit several months' wage slips she could be stranded there quite a while.

That level of savings should be okay, Derkerdog, especially if you can also submit evidence of your looking for a job and the level of salary you could realistically receive, ie copy job ads. Don't wait for the phone call from the entry clearance officer about your wife's overstay - explain it fully in the application she will submit. Good luck.

[bobrussell]

what concerns me most - apart from the overstay - is how they will view the fact I have no job. I have around 18k in savings, but the immigration advisor we spoke to today wasn't very impressed with that. If I have to get a job and submit several months' wage slips she could be stranded there quite a while.

That level of savings should be okay, Derkerdog, especially if you can also submit evidence of your looking for a job and the level of salary you could realistically receive, ie copy job ads. Don't wait for the phone call from the entry clearance officer about your wife's overstay - explain it fully in the application she will submit. Good luck.

Sorry I was not suggesting that you ignore the overstay on the application. Cover it fully in writing. I still expect your wife will get a call from the Embassy and they generally seem to ask at least one question and I bet this will be that question!

The English test required should be a doddle for anyone who has been in the UK for any significant time. What a pain!

A few days overstay is unlikely to cause much of a problem as long as you have reacted appropriately when this was realised. The ECO is not looking for trouble just doing his or her job.

Edited November 9, 2011 by bobrussell

[7by7]

As said, this short an overstay should not be a problem, particularly as she is leaving the UK voluntarily. Simply explain the circumstances fully in a covering letter.

The maintenance requirement is that you can support yourselves without recourse to public funds; 18K in the bank should be more than enough. However, I would also include any evidence you have of your job search and the likelihood of you being employed soon.

Your wife's employment prospects also count, so include details of those, too.

[Derkerdog]

I'm relieved you all agree the overstay shouldn't be too much of a problem. The English test is a real pain for sure, considering it will cost around 7k baht and won't be any use when/if we finally get to apply for ILR in two years time. And they are not shy putting the prices up either. The visa application has jumped from 32k to 40k in the space of two years. ILR is £950 at the moment .. in two years how much I wonder.

At the moment I'm going through my previous spouse visa application made two years ago, and I have come across a document called 'Affirmation of Freedom to Marry' which has been certified by the British embassy and translated into Thai. This document was drafted two years ago while I was still living and working in Thailand, and now has invalid info such as my previous occupation, salary, address etc.

I'm wondering if that's going to be a problem? If I remember rightly, I needed this document in order to get married in Thailand, but not for our visa application itself, as I already provided originals of my previous UK marriage and divorce certificates (in accordance with no.10 on the checklist 'If you or your spouse were married before - Divorce or death certificate of your or your spouse's previous husband/wife/civil partner'). In which case, I don't know what it's doing in the folder .. unless I just decided to put it in for good measure.

I don't suppose much of the evidence I submitted in the last applicaiton (proof of relationship, my mum's visit, postcards, proof of cohabitation in Thailand etc) is that relevant anymore, now that we have more recent proof of having lived together the last two years in the UK. I think I'm going to compartmentalize the application into two sections, one with all the old stuff prior to our first application, and another for our life since arriving in the UK. That way they can just skip it if they want to.

I've just been going over the checklist they provide. Number 4; certified copy of spouse's passport as evidence that he is British or settled in the UK. According to several posters on this forum, that just means I have to photocopy every page of my passport and sign each page, have I got that right?

Thanks for your replies

[Kadafi]

I hope all work out for you, seems stupid that someones wife has to leave just because of a english test but i guess its the rules and she has had plenty of time to have done it.

I read in July that they were raising the time limit on spouse visas from 2 years to 5 years until they are able to apply for a settlement. Not sure if its come into effect yet but i guess you dont want to miss out on that.

[Derkerdog]

I hope all work out for you, seems stupid that someones wife has to leave just because of a english test but i guess its the rules and she has had plenty of time to have done it.

I read in July that they were raising the time limit on spouse visas from 2 years to 5 years until they are able to apply for a settlement. Not sure if its come into effect yet but i guess you dont want to miss out on that.

You're right I had plenty of time to do it. As the woman from the Border Agency helpline said, 'You've had more than two years to follow these clear and simple rules, and you've failed to do so'. Even if I'd realised the visa was about to expire and I managed to rush her through the Life in UK test, it would have been too late to get an English language certificate.

If anyone reading this is going through a spouse visa application as the moment, don't make the mistakes I made. Don't rest on your laurels when you get into the UK. Be absolutely clear what you need to do next, and do it asap. Don't take for gospel what you think you heard or read somewhere and put the whole thing to the back of your mind - get on the website double check until you're absolutely sure. If you're not sure, search through the archives of forums like this and take advice from reliable sources. For example the Life in the UK test, according to an immigration agent I spoke to you can take the Life in UK test done anytime, so just get it done then it's done. The price is only going to go up and up, so it makes sense from all angles. Also bear in mind the English certification can take many months to complete, and if he/she fails it has to be done all over again. That could easily take a year.

But who am I kidding giving advice! I don't think even the biggest knuckle-dragger I've ever seen around Bangkok would manage the hat-trick of forgetting the language test, life in UK test, AND visa expiry date

I hope what you say hasn't come into effect yet. I haven't heard anything about it so hopefully it hasn't. If it comes in after our visa has been processed I assume they won't be able to make those granted two years before settlement wait a further three years, but I suppose it could happen

[tricolor]

You could get the English test requirement sorted before she leaves the UK.

Costs £75 from Trinity College with almost daily exams now being held in Birmingham, Manchester and London. Certificates issued within a few days after exam. Details here :http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/site/?id=2094.

Once you've got that sorted why not try sending in a 2-3 week 'late' FLR application with an explanatory letter ?

No need for Life in UK certificate if it's a FLR application.

Worth a try maybe ? If refused appeal and request consideration be given for a discretionary visa (lasts 2-3 years) or

maybe there's some sort of human rights appeal allowed in terms of splitting up a family......

Edited November 9, 2011 by tricolor

[Kadafi]

You could get the English test requirement sorted before she leaves the UK.

Costs £75 from Trinity College with almost daily exams now being held in Birmingham, Manchester and London. Certificates issued within a few days after exam. Details here :http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/site/?id=2094.

Once you've got that sorted why not try sending in a 2-3 week 'late' FLR application with an explanatory letter ?

No need for Life in UK certificate if it's a FLR application.

Worth a try maybe ? If refused appeal and request consideration be given for a discretionary visa (lasts 2-3 years) or

maybe there's some sort of human rights appeal allowed in terms of splitting up a family......

I would be very surprised if discretionary leave was granted, I believed this is only given in exceptional circumstances and i dont see any here.

[7by7]

Even if I'd realised the visa was about to expire and I managed to rush her through the Life in UK test, it would have been too late to get an English language certificate.

The LitUK is required for ILR, the speaking and listening certificate is not required for ILR, just FLR or an overseas settlement application. Had she passed the LitUK test she could have applied for ILR and so would not have needed the speaking and listening certificate.

The AFM is a Thai requirement for foreigners marrying in the Kingdom. It is not required for a UK visa application. It doesn't matter that it has now expired as you are already married.

[Derkerdog]

Thanks for that link tricolor. On the morning we realised our mistake we called the local college where my wife had attended various courses over the last two years. The tutor I spoke to said she was familiar with these settlement visa language requirements, but there was no way my wife could get a certificate anytime soon. However looking at the link you sent me it looks like you can. She mustn't have been aware of the place.

But even if we had the language requirement, she still didn't have the life in the UK test, and couldn't sit it because her visa (which they apparently check on entry to the test centre) had already expired. which would mean she'd be submitting her ILR with no Life in Uk, and an overstay too .. not exactly a strong application.

Anyway, it's all by the by now because she's booked on a Sunday flight via Doha, then on to Surat thani, where her parents have evacuated to until the floods subside. She's booked to return end of Feb but that date can be changed for £100. The ticket cost about £570 which I didn't think was too bad considering it's short notice. It needed to be out of Manchester with no more than one tranfer as it's her first time flying alone. We've flown Qatar via Doha together before so it shouldn't be too traumatic.

Thanks for that link anyway. I'll bookmark that place for future reference

You could get the English test requirement sorted before she leaves the UK.

Costs £75 from Trinity College with almost daily exams now being held in Birmingham, Manchester and London. Certificates issued within a few days after exam. Details here :http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/site/?id=2094.

Once you've got that sorted why not try sending in a 2-3 week 'late' FLR application with an explanatory letter ?

No need for Life in UK certificate if it's a FLR application.

Worth a try maybe ? If refused appeal and request consideration be given for a discretionary visa (lasts 2-3 years) or

maybe there's some sort of human rights appeal allowed in terms of splitting up a family......

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Just reading this with interest I think its highly likely the A1 English test will be scrapped at the end of this month in my opinion.

[Derkerdog]

Kadafi

I called the Border Agency helpline several times, and you're right there wasn't much compassion! There was one scouse girl who made a real effort asking around for us, but I felt her compassion was directed more toward my wife for being married to a cretin

7by7

Thanks for clearing that up. The marriage and visa application happened one after the other and it's all become a bit of a blur.

About her employment prospects in the UK, she has worked as a voluntary teaching assistant for two years solid with hardly any time off, and recently qualified as a level 2 TA. She has a paid position working 1 hour a day as a midday assistant. The school have given her a glowing reference and have agreed to keep her midday assistant position open while she is away. My parents live alone in a 4 bedroom house and have agreed to let us live here rent free (same circumstances as original application), and our savings will be down to around 16k by the time the application goes in. With all that in mind, do you think we'll be ok submitting the application as is, without waiting for me to get a job and accrue a couple of months' wage slips?

tricolor

BTW I remember the woman on the border agency helpline said if you overstay and get your late applicaion refused, you then have no right of appeal

[Derkerdog]

Just reading this with interest I think its highly likely the A1 English test will be scrapped at the end of this month in my opinion.

I hope you're right it'll save me 7 thousand baht and one less thing to do. Why do you think they will scrap it?

[Derkerdog]

In wonder, in an unusual situation like ours where my wife has already spent longer than two years living as a spouse in the UK but then because of an error has to return and do it all again. Providing her repeat spouse visa application is successful, once she is back in the UK she will have already fulfilled the requirement of living 2 years in the UK, and as such may be able to apply for ILR straight away (once she obtains the approved language and life in uk certs)

[tricolor]

Just reading this with interest I think its highly likely the A1 English test will be scrapped at the end of this month in my opinion.

Why ?? I thought the intention was to make the test more difficult or are you referring to the pending court case where the ruling is to be challenged.

It's become a nice little earner for approved test centres - £75+ or 7 000 + Baht for what can be as little as a 5 minute oral exam.

Same same for the Life in UK test.

Meanwhile yet more revelations this week about how UKBA operates.

Edited November 10, 2011 by tricolor

[Derkerdog]

At the moment we're investigating where to obtain this English speaking requirement. So far we know that it must be level A1 and we have a list of providers here. But my wife has called them and has been given assorted course names and prices:

TOIEC at BB Building, Asoke for 1200B for listening & reading, 3,500 for speaking and writing TOTAL 4700B (certificate 15 days to process)

BULATS @ Vintage Siam - 6950B

I have just got off the phone to my wife's tutor from the local college. She knows her well from the classes she attended for previous literacy, numeracy and teaching assistant courses. I called her to ask whether it would be possible to take an exam in Thailand that will also cover the requirement for her subsequent application for ILR, thus killing two birds with one stone and saving me the cost of another certificate. According to her, if she passes the Life in UK test she doesn't need any further English language qualifications! the plot thickens. As it happens it doesn't affect our situation, but nonetheless I'm sure that's not what the UKBA helpline told me