Abhisit Lashes Out At Attempted Thaksin Pardon

[sparebox2]

If I understand correctly,

PT wanto to change the age from 62 to 60, so to include specifically Thaksin.

This is not acceptable to PAD or the army.

[animatic]

thought experiment for you.

Does democracy = justice?

Type of govern says nothing about the legal system.

right - a system of representation does not deliver justice, only representation.

If there is a problem with justice, then don't attack the democracy (with, eg: a coup) in order to get justice. Fix the problem of justice.

Which in this case will or will not be decided with a pardon, this year or not this year, ... (btw, IMO the Thaksin question was never about justice - his conviction was not about justice, and his pardon, should it ever materialize, will not be about justice either)

Personally, I agree with many that the question needs to be resolved for Thai politics to progress. It is one of several problems, but certainly the most poignant, publicly discussed issue.

Greg's example on justice in an island democracy misses the point for me - Thaksin's return/exile it is not about red democracy, and it is not about justice. It is about politics, and for some, it is about how to pull out the thorn with the minimum of suffering. Does Thailand let Thaksin come back or does Thailand make him live out his life in exile?

Self exile.

Don't confuse that point.

He could come back serve his short time, go quietly into 'political retirement' and be left alone.

As has been the case with most deposed Thai leaders in the past.

If he went politically silent and still live high on the hog, they wouldn't bother with the other cases, in the best Thai tradition of ignoring a problem, but it seems his ego clearly won't let him not regain his lost face. Apparently, he single handedly is forcing the issue of his lost face in the country as a whole using his huge questionably gained fortune to do so.

Thaksin already came back, but was acting strongly political after promising not to do so. And so couldn't prevent his pending charges from continuing, BECAUSE he refused to go silent and walk away from the game. Thaksin has always had the ability to stop this whole march towards civil war, but he seemingly just can not help himself.

[QED]

If I understand correctly,

PT wanto to change the age from 62 to 60, so to include specifically Thaksin.

This is not acceptable to PAD or the army.

No, you don't understand correctly.

The age is already 60.

And as Thaksin is now 62 your post does not make much sense

[QED]

@ Whybother

Thanks for the info.

FYI, IRPC is a refining company, majority owned I believe by PTT.

[Payboy]

@ Whybother

Thanks for the info.

FYI, IRPC is a refining company, majority owned I believe by PTT.

Formerly Thai Petrochemical Industry Public Company Limited owned by Prachai Leophairatana. Just to complete the jigsaw.

[wxyz]

anybody that did not see this coming

is drinking the evian/naive water

[anterian]

No point in discussing the inevitable, what I found funny was the headline, " Abhisit lashes out", that milksop couldn't lash out if you put a bullwhip in his hands.

[Markaew]

Well, before the democrat bashers sign on, let me just say how much I admire Deputy Prime minister Chalerm's transparency and apparent naiivete.

"The deputy premier however declined to comment whether the government's move will benefit Mr Thaksin."

I guess money still can buy anything, Election, Jail time, etc.

Always has in any country.

[Chris Lawrence]

Hope the life insurance is paid up?

[PaulBax]

the end point is that the people voted - end of

People voting doesn't give a government carte blanche to do what they want.

There is even a term for people who believe it does. Recognized by the early Greeks, "Tyranny of the majority" was the term coined by Alex de Tocqueville when discussing democracy in America. So anyone who thinks they can simply "vote" Thaksin into innocence is supporting tyranny and injustice. More importantly they are supporting a system of ochlocracy, better known as mob rule. (Wikipedia is great sometimes, isn't it?) In any case, they aren't exactly taking the moral high road.

If you want democracy, rule of law is the foundation. If you can't accept rule of law, then you don't have democracy and at that point the one with the biggest gun wins.

If the reds continue to subvert the rule of law through a vote, then they by definition have said they no longer want democracy, and the tanks need to roll and the bullets need to start flying.

Aha you mean the rule of law as designed by the military to support themselves or the rule of law that should be applied equally to all?

What do you think we have in Thailand?

[DocN]

For this amnesty decree, would taksin still need a royal pardon?

can the person giving the pardons say "No"?

Like Nelson Mandela, Thaksin is a convicted terrorist.

Must be stop at all cost, even a the expense of the tax payer.

I really can't read your nonsense anymore!

Mandela was fighting a system that had racism enshrined in it's constitution.

Calling him a terrorist is the same as calling members of the "White Rose" terrorists, because they wanted to get rid of Hitler!

Do you ever think, before you write?

Thaksin is not a convicted terrorist. He is convicted, but not for terrorism.

And he must be stopped at all costs? Is that a call for violence?

What does that make you?

Oh yes: a terrorist!

[DocN]

It's quite simple: Is government corruption OK???

Abhisit says "NO"

PT (Thaksin) says "YES" ...

Suthep says "Err...I'll get back to you on that one"

Abisith say "NO" (turning around and hiding that he can't help but laugh at the question and his own answer)

[charmonman]

I think both of you are right.

The return of Thaksin will probably be a disaster for the country but all we can do is watch from the wings, as a totally selfish agenda unwinds.

The problem is the selfish blindness is on all sides.

Who knows how this will all end, let's just hope commen sense and moderation will win out.

Another coup and some sort of Government of national unity is now an increasing possibility but will not be good for the country and could tip us down an even dirtier road.

If it happens, i think it will be fast.

I don't think there are any winners in the current politics and the loser, sadly, is the ordinary Thai people.

Hope calm heads prevail.

A coup will not be good for the country, and a government of national unity actually needs at least a little bit of unity.

I don't think Thaksin or his supporters will accept anything except having Thaksin or his proxy in power. His opposition might accept a proxy if Thaksin is out of the lime light, but they won't accept him up front.

The majority of Thais want Thaksin back.They call that Democracy.The most of you guys never hear about that word.

Actually, there is a bit more to it than that, such as everyone being equal under the law. Passing a law for the benefit of one single person is not democracy. Most of you Thaksin supporters never heard about that concept.

The man is free to come back to Thailand any time he wants as long as he submits to the law of the land and the decision of the courts. What the hell is so difficult about that? He can hardly claim persecution anymore now that his sister is PM and his cronies are in power.

[JAG]

There is even a term for people who believe it does. Recognized by the early Greeks, "Tyranny of the majority" was the term coined by Alex de Tocqueville when discussing democracy in America. So anyone who thinks they can simply "vote" Thaksin into innocence is supporting tyranny and injustice. More importantly they are supporting a system of ochlocracy, better known as mob rule. (Wikipedia is great sometimes, isn't it?) In any case, they aren't exactly taking the moral high road.

If you want democracy, rule of law is the foundation. If you can't accept rule of law, then you don't have democracy and at that point the one with the biggest gun wins.

If the reds continue to subvert the rule of law through a vote, then they by definition have said they no longer want democracy, and the tanks need to roll and the bullets need to start flying.

You really do want a civil war don't you?

Ever been nearer to one than your TV set have you? Any idea how awful civil war is? Ever smelt a mass grave in hot weather, recovered bodies from burnt out houses, watched widows and orphans weep in the ashes of their homes? I doubt it somehow. If you had you would NEVER post statements like that.

[gregb]

There is even a term for people who believe it does. Recognized by the early Greeks, "Tyranny of the majority" was the term coined by Alex de Tocqueville when discussing democracy in America. So anyone who thinks they can simply "vote" Thaksin into innocence is supporting tyranny and injustice. More importantly they are supporting a system of ochlocracy, better known as mob rule. (Wikipedia is great sometimes, isn't it?) In any case, they aren't exactly taking the moral high road.

If you want democracy, rule of law is the foundation. If you can't accept rule of law, then you don't have democracy and at that point the one with the biggest gun wins.

If the reds continue to subvert the rule of law through a vote, then they by definition have said they no longer want democracy, and the tanks need to roll and the bullets need to start flying.

You really do want a civil war don't you?

Ever been nearer to one than your TV set have you? Any idea how awful civil war is? Ever smelt a mass grave in hot weather, recovered bodies from burnt out houses, watched widows and orphans weep in the ashes of their homes? I doubt it somehow. If you had you would NEVER post statements like that.

No. Actually I loathe the thought of it, and if it breaks out my family and I will be fleeing until the fighting is all over.

My point is to try and get all the reds to realize exactly where this amnesty decree is pushing us. This will not end peacefully if they don't back down and the PAD and opposition can not find a way to legally thwart this decree.

I view a civil war as inevitable unless Thaksin dies. I wish with all my soul it weren't the case, but it is ridiculous to try and pretend the world is roses when there is a mounting body of evidence that this is going to end very, very badly. Accept the judgement of the courts, or there will be war. It is that simple.

[Thaddeus]

I think both of you are right.

The return of Thaksin will probably be a disaster for the country but all we can do is watch from the wings, as a totally selfish agenda unwinds.

The problem is the selfish blindness is on all sides.

Who knows how this will all end, let's just hope commen sense and moderation will win out.

Another coup and some sort of Government of national unity is now an increasing possibility but will not be good for the country and could tip us down an even dirtier road.

If it happens, i think it will be fast.

I don't think there are any winners in the current politics and the loser, sadly, is the ordinary Thai people.

Hope calm heads prevail.

A coup will not be good for the country, and a government of national unity actually needs at least a little bit of unity.

I don't think Thaksin or his supporters will accept anything except having Thaksin or his proxy in power. His opposition might accept a proxy if Thaksin is out of the lime light, but they won't accept him up front.

The majority of Thais want Thaksin back.They call that Democracy.The most of you guys never hear about that word.

Errr ,,,, well. 53% of the population didn't want this government, I would suggest that even if the number of Thais who wanted some aimless female non-entity to rule them didn't just want that... the answer is no, the majority of Thai's don't want that either.

[tlansford]

I think both of you are right.

The return of Thaksin will probably be a disaster for the country but all we can do is watch from the wings, as a totally selfish agenda unwinds.

The problem is the selfish blindness is on all sides.

Who knows how this will all end, let's just hope commen sense and moderation will win out.

Another coup and some sort of Government of national unity is now an increasing possibility but will not be good for the country and could tip us down an even dirtier road.

If it happens, i think it will be fast.

I don't think there are any winners in the current politics and the loser, sadly, is the ordinary Thai people.

Hope calm heads prevail.

A coup will not be good for the country, and a government of national unity actually needs at least a little bit of unity.

I don't think Thaksin or his supporters will accept anything except having Thaksin or his proxy in power. His opposition might accept a proxy if Thaksin is out of the lime light, but they won't accept him up front.

The majority of Thais want Thaksin back.They call that Democracy.The most of you guys never hear about that word.

Errr ,,,, well. 53% of the population didn't want this government, I would suggest that even if the number of Thais who wanted some aimless female non-entity to rule them didn't just want that... the answer is no, the majority of Thai's don't want that either.

That is taking the wrong numbers for the statement you want to contradict.

Not only did the PTP win 53% of the seats & 48% of the vote, the current coalition govt consists of well over 50% of the popular vote, so, I would say that "majority" is the right word, regarding the vote, that is.

How many Thais want him back, don't want him back, or don't care is another question altogether. If anyone has seen a recent poll, that would be interesting.

[TAWP]

For this amnesty decree, would taksin still need a royal pardon?

can the person giving the pardons say "No"?

Like Nelson Mandela, Thaksin is a convicted terrorist.

Must be stop at all cost, even a the expense of the tax payer.

I really can't read your nonsense anymore!

Mandela was fighting a system that had racism enshrined in it's constitution.

Calling him a terrorist is the same as calling members of the "White Rose" terrorists, because they wanted to get rid of Hitler!

Do you ever think, before you write?

Thaksin is not a convicted terrorist. He is convicted, but not for terrorism.

And he must be stopped at all costs? Is that a call for violence?

What does that make you?

Oh yes: a terrorist!

Uh, just so you know, you are arguing with a returning Red Shirt apologist that is trolling...

[JAG]

There is even a term for people who believe it does. Recognized by the early Greeks, "Tyranny of the majority" was the term coined by Alex de Tocqueville when discussing democracy in America. So anyone who thinks they can simply "vote" Thaksin into innocence is supporting tyranny and injustice. More importantly they are supporting a system of ochlocracy, better known as mob rule. (Wikipedia is great sometimes, isn't it?) In any case, they aren't exactly taking the moral high road.

If you want democracy, rule of law is the foundation. If you can't accept rule of law, then you don't have democracy and at that point the one with the biggest gun wins.

If the reds continue to subvert the rule of law through a vote, then they by definition have said they no longer want democracy, and the tanks need to roll and the bullets need to start flying.

You really do want a civil war don't you?

Ever been nearer to one than your TV set have you? Any idea how awful civil war is? Ever smelt a mass grave in hot weather, recovered bodies from burnt out houses, watched widows and orphans weep in the ashes of their homes? I doubt it somehow. If you had you would NEVER post statements like that.

No. Actually I loathe the thought of it, and if it breaks out my family and I will be fleeing until the fighting is all over.

My point is to try and get all the reds to realize exactly where this amnesty decree is pushing us. This will not end peacefully if they don't back down and the PAD and opposition can not find a way to legally thwart this decree.

I view a civil war as inevitable unless Thaksin dies. I wish with all my soul it weren't the case, but it is ridiculous to try and pretend the world is roses when there is a mounting body of evidence that this is going to end very, very badly. Accept the judgement of the courts, or there will be war. It is that simple.

If you do loathe the thought of war, which I would hope we all do, then for goodness sake dont use phrases such as "the tanks need to roll, the bullets need to start flying. Although our political views differ (I have explained mine elsewhere on this forum, as have you) we should be attempting to prevent a war.

Edited November 18, 2011 by JAG

[Jingthing]

Oh please, enough with the drama queenotry. The tone of the rhetoric expats use on a forum has no effect on whether Thailand is going to drift into civil war, or not. Of course, I certainly hope none of us want to see such a war here, but that isn't really the issue. It certainly is a defensible opinion that such a war appears to be at least potentially developing here. What can we possibly do to stop it? This one is clearly totally with the Thais.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Jingthing

[TAWP]

Those of you here that support Thaksin and don't believe he will turn this nation into an oppressive regime that benefits a small inner circle of friends - can you afford being wrong? Do you have families here? Are you willing to bet their life and freedom?

[Jingthing]

Those of you here that support Thaksin and don't believe he will turn this nation into an oppressive regime that benefits a small inner circle of friends - can you afford being wrong? Do you have families here? Are you willing to bet their life and freedom?

I hear you but realistically what does their support or lack of support change, either way? Foreigners certainly can't be involved in any political action in Thailand, even if we wanted to.

[TAWP]

Those of you here that support Thaksin and don't believe he will turn this nation into an oppressive regime that benefits a small inner circle of friends - can you afford being wrong? Do you have families here? Are you willing to bet their life and freedom?

I hear you but realistically what does their support or lack of support change, either way? Foreigners certainly can't be involved in any political action in Thailand, even if we wanted to.

If they oppose the development they might be looking for alternative plans for the future if things are starting to look like they will finally walk down the 'past the point of no return' - if they are oblivious to what is coming or just super-optimistic that it will not happen, they will not have it.

[Roadman]

Those of you here that support Thaksin and don't believe he will turn this nation into an oppressive regime that benefits a small inner circle of friends - can you afford being wrong? Do you have families here? Are you willing to bet their life and freedom?

I hear you but realistically what does their support or lack of support change, either way? Foreigners certainly can't be involved in any political action in Thailand, even if we wanted to.

We can not be involved in politics to the full extent but we can take the time to educate our Thai families and whanau as to what democarcy means and more important that the law at all costs is not for sale to those with a populist agenda.

[tlansford]

Those of you here that support Thaksin and don't believe he will turn this nation into an oppressive regime that benefits a small inner circle of friends - can you afford being wrong? Do you have families here? Are you willing to bet their life and freedom?

I hear you but realistically what does their support or lack of support change, either way? Foreigners certainly can't be involved in any political action in Thailand, even if we wanted to.

We can not be involved in politics to the full extent but we can take the time to educate our Thai families and whanau as to what democarcy means and more important that the law at all costs is not for sale to those with a populist agenda.

TVF - the internet chat room for political science professors.

[scotbeve]

Hope the life insurance is paid up?

After the 2 assassination attempts on his life (Thai Airways plane!!! And the grenade attack), that his insurance has been paid up to platinum level.

[rubl]

Hope the life insurance is paid up?

After the 2 assassination attempts on his life (Thai Airways plane!!! And the grenade attack), that his insurance has been paid up to platinum level.

For your information:

The airplane accident was just that ( http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20010303-1 ). I'm not aware of a grenade attack on k. Thaksin, but there was this incident ( http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0608/S00304.htm ) which was dropped after the coup, but even before already got very conflicting statements.

[sparebox2]

For this amnesty decree, would taksin still need a royal pardon?

can the person giving the pardons say "No"?

Like Nelson Mandela, Thaksin is a convicted terrorist.

Must be stop at all cost, even a the expense of the tax payer.

I really can't read your nonsense anymore!

Mandela was fighting a system that had racism enshrined in it's constitution.

Calling him a terrorist is the same as calling members of the "White Rose" terrorists, because they wanted to get rid of Hitler!

Do you ever think, before you write?

Thaksin is not a convicted terrorist. He is convicted, but not for terrorism.

And he must be stopped at all costs? Is that a call for violence?

What does that make you?

Oh yes: a terrorist!

I get it now.

Mandel was a convited terrorist. You agreed that this is a fact.

Thaksin was NOT a convited terrorist. You agreed that this is a fact.

I rest my case.

PS. Use the excuse of using terror to fight a cause is OK. Just like the flood victim who robbed a bank a couple of days ago, has become a national hero by the Thai press now.

[DocN]

For this amnesty decree, would taksin still need a royal pardon?

can the person giving the pardons say "No"?

Like Nelson Mandela, Thaksin is a convicted terrorist.

Must be stop at all cost, even a the expense of the tax payer.

I really can't read your nonsense anymore!

Mandela was fighting a system that had racism enshrined in it's constitution.

Calling him a terrorist is the same as calling members of the "White Rose" terrorists, because they wanted to get rid of Hitler!

Do you ever think, before you write?

Thaksin is not a convicted terrorist. He is convicted, but not for terrorism.

And he must be stopped at all costs? Is that a call for violence?

What does that make you?

Oh yes: a terrorist!

Uh, just so you know, you are arguing with a returning Red Shirt apologist that is trolling...

That he is "trolling" didn't escape me. But too much is too much!

[DocN]

For this amnesty decree, would taksin still need a royal pardon?

can the person giving the pardons say "No"?

Like Nelson Mandela, Thaksin is a convicted terrorist.

Must be stop at all cost, even a the expense of the tax payer.

I really can't read your nonsense anymore!

Mandela was fighting a system that had racism enshrined in it's constitution.

Calling him a terrorist is the same as calling members of the "White Rose" terrorists, because they wanted to get rid of Hitler!

Do you ever think, before you write?

Thaksin is not a convicted terrorist. He is convicted, but not for terrorism.

And he must be stopped at all costs? Is that a call for violence?

What does that make you?

Oh yes: a terrorist!

I get it now.

Mandel was a convited terrorist. You agreed that this is a fact.

Thaksin was NOT a convited terrorist. You agreed that this is a fact.

I rest my case.

PS. Use the excuse of using terror to fight a cause is OK. Just like the flood victim who robbed a bank a couple of days ago, has become a national hero by the Thai press now.

??? are you on these pills again???