Anger Erupts In Thailand Over Plans For Amnesty

[hammered]

I live in an area where if there is going to be a groundswell against Thaksin there should be substantial anger and outrage. However, the mix of well heeled middle class and working class people I know dont seem to have much of either. Most really dont seem to care whether he comes back or not but there are definitely some who do want him back. Oddly enough I cant even find ex-PAD attenders who are outraged either. The impression I get is that people know he ios coming back and have adjusted accordingly and dont want to see a big fight.

Then again Chonburi certainly isnt anything like the PAD and Dem supporting heartland it was a few years ago. But that really is the point. If the PAD (used to be a lot of PAD support) and Dems (Only managed to retain one MP) have lost a wealthy area like Chonburi, they are in a lot weaker position than before however their media and spokespeople want to spin it. In short the floods (natural disaster) and the Thaksin pardon issue havent changed a thing round here from what I see unlike the May events, which have been compounded by the Dems by not replacing Abhisit.

[hammered]

Gentlemen, it's easy for us Thais to sit and write the future of Thailand. Reality is a completely different case. We can wish for the new blood, but his/her path will not be easy, next to impossible. To come in power, one must possess a couple of key elements: money, connections and the army's approval...unfortunately, the people's approval seems to be the least needed factor when it comes to Thai politics as the aforementioned factors will eventually stop one. We Thais are fed up with the system as it is...the same old faces around and around in an evil cycle. If you think Thaksin & Co and the Dems, BJT, CP + whoever are not the same gang, you are wrong. This country has been run by the same gang/families for a long long time behind the scenes. It's just that Thaksin tries to take it to a whole new level i.e. going against sharing the cake evenly and challenging something that we Thais cannot discuss openly. Red shirts/Yellow shirts? same people at the top (I hope you do remember that Thaksin and Sonthi/Chamlong used to be best pals)...I have been sitting and having dinner and drinks with the lead investigator and prime suspect at the same table...all laughing and enjoying their night out. It's all an act in front of camera and papers...and who suffers from this scheme? The normal Somchai and the foreigners investing in Thailand...

Bottom line is, money is the main corrupting factor in Thailand and there seems to be no cure...it's too embedded into our culture. From the mini mafias running the flowers sold at intersections, from the Kamnans controlling the tiny areas in upcountry, our infamous BiB, the military, schools, BMA, government projects...everywhere, even public donations...Thai's will always find a way to get THB...from small gold fish to the big whale. We do indeed shoot ourselves in our feet. We will be the stagnating country relying on tourism, rice and foreign investment for as long as we can, which is a big shame. We have/had so much potential...Our leaders don't really care about this...but when that milking cow dries up...then what?

I hear what you say.

I think the fundamental problem 1 is :

Face = Money = Power = Respect = Status in Society.

A society that measures ever interpersonal meeting by super subtle weis of respect and face acknowledgment.

Attached problem 2: How you make face is not important.

Making it and showing it are what count.

Far too many see it as OK getting power and money by means that are seen as repellant by most people, because once they have it that wei in public goes much deeper and fewer and fewer ever dispute their plans. It seems to be utterly intoxicating for many.

And consequently not getting it, when you had it and lost it,

or you just believe you deserve it,

rankles at a fundamentally deep personal level.

I remember Prem 'wei'ing Thaksin' at the army leader Anupong's mother's funeral, where he was clearly unwelcome. Prem wei'd Thaksin from the navel while shooting eye daggers at Thaksin for the presumption of invading a sacred and mournful occasion, to get his little face making photo-op, which failed spectacularly.

Thaksin lost much face and of course wants it back plus extra for his pain. Add this to the prevailing cultural Face making / saving paradigm and here we are with more grandiose, and culturally dangerous, ego making BS. from that Kuhn T.

3rd problem is Nationalism.

The nationalistic training from cradle to adulthood that built a 'FORMERLY united Thai People', has lead many to believe that they are somehow better than all other country's peoples, regardless of visible proof to the contrary. Not that anyone is better the other way either, just different, and all countries have nationalism to some extent. Still this fuels a hatred or disrespect for others than is an undercurrent in Thai life in relation to the outside world.

But the problem here is this mixes with face to make people

not listen to alternate ideas because ' they are not Thai Enough'

or it's not the 'Thai Way' ,'They just don't understand the Thai way',etc.

Ok fine it was necessary to make a unified people from crossroads Siam and it's neighbors cousins, back when the nation was founded, but it has gone way too far, and no one dares cool it down lest they be labeled 'not nationalistic enough' a near crime in of itself.

Cousins from all sides are vilified as 'Not Thai' so somehow lesser, which made anyone who joined part of the New Nation, but this has long been unnecessary and a detriment to Thailands growth both internally and internationally.

This is also reflected by the centrally grouped people looking down on Issan people as too Lao/Khemer, etc. and so inferior. Thailands nationalism used to force cultures to a monomaniac singleness that is not reflected in reality It is overlaid as part of nationalism run amok, and is a great factor in the current Red Shirt uprising and Thaksins ability to co-opt them for his own reasons.

Of course making these observations about the culture is not meant in a mean-spirited sense, but as observations to cultural set points as they affect our current state of affairs socially, internationally and internally on political matters.

Interesting stuff. I would also add that there are currently two competing visions both strongly held of what Thailand is

[animatic]

Gentlemen, it's easy for us Thais to sit and write the future of Thailand. Reality is a completely different case. We can wish for the new blood, but his/her path will not be easy, next to impossible. To come in power, one must possess a couple of key elements: money, connections and the army's approval...unfortunately, the people's approval seems to be the least needed factor when it comes to Thai politics as the aforementioned factors will eventually stop one. We Thais are fed up with the system as it is...the same old faces around and around in an evil cycle. If you think Thaksin & Co and the Dems, BJT, CP + whoever are not the same gang, you are wrong. This country has been run by the same gang/families for a long long time behind the scenes. It's just that Thaksin tries to take it to a whole new level i.e. going against sharing the cake evenly and challenging something that we Thais cannot discuss openly. Red shirts/Yellow shirts? same people at the top (I hope you do remember that Thaksin and Sonthi/Chamlong used to be best pals)...I have been sitting and having dinner and drinks with the lead investigator and prime suspect at the same table...all laughing and enjoying their night out. It's all an act in front of camera and papers...and who suffers from this scheme? The normal Somchai and the foreigners investing in Thailand...

Bottom line is, money is the main corrupting factor in Thailand and there seems to be no cure...it's too embedded into our culture. From the mini mafias running the flowers sold at intersections, from the Kamnans controlling the tiny areas in upcountry, our infamous BiB, the military, schools, BMA, government projects...everywhere, even public donations...Thai's will always find a way to get THB...from small gold fish to the big whale. We do indeed shoot ourselves in our feet. We will be the stagnating country relying on tourism, rice and foreign investment for as long as we can, which is a big shame. We have/had so much potential...Our leaders don't really care about this...but when that milking cow dries up...then what?

I hear what you say.

I think the fundamental problem 1 is :

Face = Money = Power = Respect = Status in Society.

A society that measures ever interpersonal meeting by super subtle weis of respect and face acknowledgment.

Attached problem 2: How you make face is not important.

Making it and showing it are what count.

Far too many see it as OK getting power and money by means that are seen as repellant by most people, because once they have it that wei in public goes much deeper and fewer and fewer ever dispute their plans. It seems to be utterly intoxicating for many.

And consequently not getting it, when you had it and lost it,

or you just believe you deserve it,

rankles at a fundamentally deep personal level.

I remember Prem 'wei'ing Thaksin' at the army leader Anupong's mother's funeral, where he was clearly unwelcome. Prem wei'd Thaksin from the navel while shooting eye daggers at Thaksin for the presumption of invading a sacred and mournful occasion, to get his little face making photo-op, which failed spectacularly.

Thaksin lost much face and of course wants it back plus extra for his pain. Add this to the prevailing cultural Face making / saving paradigm and here we are with more grandiose, and culturally dangerous, ego making BS. from that Kuhn T.

3rd problem is Nationalism.

The nationalistic training from cradle to adulthood that built a 'FORMERLY united Thai People', has lead many to believe that they are somehow better than all other country's peoples, regardless of visible proof to the contrary. Not that anyone is better the other way either, just different, and all countries have nationalism to some extent. Still this fuels a hatred or disrespect for others than is an undercurrent in Thai life in relation to the outside world.

But the problem here is this mixes with face to make people

not listen to alternate ideas because ' they are not Thai Enough'

or it's not the 'Thai Way' ,'They just don't understand the Thai way',etc.

Ok fine it was necessary to make a unified people from crossroads Siam and it's neighbors cousins, back when the nation was founded, but it has gone way too far, and no one dares cool it down lest they be labeled 'not nationalistic enough' a near crime in of itself.

Cousins from all sides are vilified as 'Not Thai' so somehow lesser, which made anyone who joined part of the New Nation, but this has long been unnecessary and a detriment to Thailands growth both internally and internationally.

This is also reflected by the centrally grouped people looking down on Issan people as too Lao/Khemer, etc. and so inferior. Thailands nationalism used to force cultures to a monomaniac singleness that is not reflected in reality It is overlaid as part of nationalism run amok, and is a great factor in the current Red Shirt uprising and Thaksins ability to co-opt them for his own reasons.

Of course making these observations about the culture is not meant in a mean-spirited sense, but as observations to cultural set points as they affect our current state of affairs socially, internationally and internally on political matters.

Interesting stuff. I would also add that there are currently two competing visions both strongly held of what Thailand is

Thanks H.

I did accidentally botch a paragraph,

due to real world distractions here, and it timed out.

"Cousins from all sides are vilified as 'Not Thai' so somehow lesser,

which made anyone who joined part of the 'New Nation AKA Thailand',

instantly correct, superior, and in the 'in group'.

But this 'us or them attitude' has long been unnecessary and a detriment to Thailands growth both internally and internationally."

Two views indeed. One based on the old Nationalism,

and one based on a twisted take on socialism

and redress of envy, tied closely with FACE... yet again..

Edited November 21, 2011 by animatic

[elcent]

Gentlemen, it's easy for us Thais to sit and write the future of Thailand. Reality is a completely different case. We can wish for the new blood, but his/her path will not be easy, next to impossible. To come in power, one must possess a couple of key elements: money, connections and the army's approval...unfortunately, the people's approval seems to be the least needed factor when it comes to Thai politics as the aforementioned factors will eventually stop one. We Thais are fed up with the system as it is...the same old faces around and around in an evil cycle. If you think Thaksin & Co and the Dems, BJT, CP + whoever are not the same gang, you are wrong. This country has been run by the same gang/families for a long long time behind the scenes. It's just that Thaksin tries to take it to a whole new level i.e. going against sharing the cake evenly and challenging something that we Thais cannot discuss openly. Red shirts/Yellow shirts? same people at the top (I hope you do remember that Thaksin and Sonthi/Chamlong used to be best pals)...I have been sitting and having dinner and drinks with the lead investigator and prime suspect at the same table...all laughing and enjoying their night out. It's all an act in front of camera and papers...and who suffers from this scheme? The normal Somchai and the foreigners investing in Thailand...

Bottom line is, money is the main corrupting factor in Thailand and there seems to be no cure...it's too embedded into our culture. From the mini mafias running the flowers sold at intersections, from the Kamnans controlling the tiny areas in upcountry, our infamous BiB, the military, schools, BMA, government projects...everywhere, even public donations...Thai's will always find a way to get THB...from small gold fish to the big whale. We do indeed shoot ourselves in our feet. We will be the stagnating country relying on tourism, rice and foreign investment for as long as we can, which is a big shame. We have/had so much potential...Our leaders don't really care about this...but when that milking cow dries up...then what?

I hear what you say.

I think the fundamental problem 1 is :

Face = Money = Power = Respect = Status in Society.

A society that measures ever interpersonal meeting by super subtle weis of respect and face acknowledgment.

Attached problem 2: How you make face is not important.

Making it and showing it are what count.

Far too many see it as OK getting power and money by means that are seen as repellant by most people, because once they have it that wei in public goes much deeper and fewer and fewer ever dispute their plans. It seems to be utterly intoxicating for many.

And consequently not getting it, when you had it and lost it,

or you just believe you deserve it,

rankles at a fundamentally deep personal level.

I remember Prem 'wei'ing Thaksin' at the army leader Anupong's mother's funeral, where he was clearly unwelcome. Prem wei'd Thaksin from the navel while shooting eye daggers at Thaksin for the presumption of invading a sacred and mournful occasion, to get his little face making photo-op, which failed spectacularly.

Thaksin lost much face and of course wants it back plus extra for his pain. Add this to the prevailing cultural Face making / saving paradigm and here we are with more grandiose, and culturally dangerous, ego making BS. from that Kuhn T.

3rd problem is Nationalism.

The nationalistic training from cradle to adulthood that built a 'FORMERLY united Thai People', has lead many to believe that they are somehow better than all other country's peoples, regardless of visible proof to the contrary. Not that anyone is better the other way either, just different, and all countries have nationalism to some extent. Still this fuels a hatred or disrespect for others than is an undercurrent in Thai life in relation to the outside world.

But the problem here is this mixes with face to make people

not listen to alternate ideas because ' they are not Thai Enough'

or it's not the 'Thai Way' ,'They just don't understand the Thai way',etc.

Ok fine it was necessary to make a unified people from crossroads Siam and it's neighbors cousins, back when the nation was founded, but it has gone way too far, and no one dares cool it down lest they be labeled 'not nationalistic enough' a near crime in of itself.

Cousins from all sides are vilified as 'Not Thai' so somehow lesser, which made anyone who joined part of the New Nation, but this has long been unnecessary and a detriment to Thailands growth both internally and internationally.

This is also reflected by the centrally grouped people looking down on Issan people as too Lao/Khemer, etc. and so inferior. Thailands nationalism used to force cultures to a monomaniac singleness that is not reflected in reality It is overlaid as part of nationalism run amok, and is a great factor in the current Red Shirt uprising and Thaksins ability to co-opt them for his own reasons.

Of course making these observations about the culture is not meant in a mean-spirited sense, but as observations to cultural set points as they affect our current state of affairs socially, internationally and internally on political matters.

Interesting stuff. I would also add that there are currently two competing visions both strongly held of what Thailand is

Thanks H.

I did accidentally botch a paragraph,

due to real world distractions here, and it timed out.

"Cousins from all sides are vilified as 'Not Thai' so somehow lesser,

which made anyone who joined part of the 'New Nation AKA Thailand',

instantly correct, superior, and in the 'in group'.

But this 'us or them attitude' has long been unnecessary and a detriment to Thailands growth both internally and internationally."

Two views indeed. One based on the old Nationalism,

and one based on a twisted take on socialism

and redress of envy, tied closely with FACE... yet again..

wow, that's a call for sure. Thanks for wording people's feelings.

[nikster]

Yellow, red, same thing. It's not the country that's divided, it's the rich oligarchs running it that are divided. They're fighting their battles over who gets the most. Their foot soldiers - or anyone else - aren't going to win either way.

Eventually there will be a public uprising to kick all those clowns out. An Asian Spring.

[jpinx]

I remember the consequences of the removal of the stablising influence in Vietnam and Cambodia some years ago - albeit the withdrawal of a colonial power. It would be a disaster for Thailand if there is no stabilising influence.

[hammered]

Yellow, red, same thing. It's not the country that's divided, it's the rich oligarchs running it that are divided. They're fighting their battles over who gets the most. Their foot soldiers - or anyone else - aren't going to win either way.

Eventually there will be a public uprising to kick all those clowns out. An Asian Spring.

It will be interesting to see where it goes in the future and likely to be unpredictable. People are now far too politicized for this to all be put back in a box by any political party. The question is at what point are the oligarchs leading their supporters and what point are the peopel pushing the oligarchs. Two things spring to mind:

1. All those upcountry PTP MPs who used the analogy of being a leper by the roadside if they had taken the lucrative route of defecting to another party.

2. The scathing attacks of the PAD when they were abandoned by their allies

I would think by now not everything is as easily controlled by the powerful as it once was

There is also the community radio phenomenon which is avidly listened to by farmers, and rapidly turned off in the presence of strangers. Many of these stations are not heavily tied into movements leaderships as people think

I would also wonder if the actual PTP MPs saw the red villages and now red districts as a positive thing or not.

[Logarhythm]

Well now The PT have successfully made Thailand look like a third nation country to the rest of the world.

isn't it still officially a developing country and not a first world country anyway?

maybe --- but developing into what exactly ?

A mess!

[sparebox2]

Well now The PT have successfully made Thailand look like a third nation country to the rest of the world.

isn't it still officially a developing country and not a first world country anyway?

maybe --- but developing into what exactly ?

A mess!

Thailand is the most powerful ASEAN country, after Indonesia.

Thailand even use aircraft carrier as a yatch.

[animatic]

Yellow, red, same thing. It's not the country that's divided, it's the rich oligarchs running it that are divided. They're fighting their battles over who gets the most. Their foot soldiers - or anyone else - aren't going to win either way.

Eventually there will be a public uprising to kick all those clowns out. An Asian Spring.

It will be interesting to see where it goes in the future and likely to be unpredictable. People are now far too politicized for this to all be put back in a box by any political party. The question is at what point are the oligarchs leading their supporters and what point are the peopel pushing the oligarchs. Two things spring to mind:

1. All those upcountry PTP MPs who used the analogy of being a leper by the roadside if they had taken the lucrative route of defecting to another party.

2. The scathing attacks of the PAD when they were abandoned by their allies

I would think by now not everything is as easily controlled by the powerful as it once was

There is also the community radio phenomenon which is avidly listened to by farmers, and rapidly turned off in the presence of strangers. Many of these stations are not heavily tied into movements leaderships as people think

I would also wonder if the actual PTP MPs saw the red villages and now red districts as a positive thing or not.

Only if they were utterly foolish...

The ideologues have quietly ridden the psycho-greedy oligarchs to a position of control they could not possible have gained without that backing. The problem is during a change of backing... those ideologues retain control but not necessarily the incoming oligarchs... chaos on the installment plan.

[Buchholz]

No royal pardon for former Thai PM after outcry

THAILAND'S government has withdrawn endorsement of a royal pardon for fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra that threatened to ignite new protests across the nation as it recovers from devastating floods.

The decision will also allow revered King Bhumibol Adulyadej, who has been unwell, to mark his auspicious 84th birthday next month without controversy.

The government's retreat followed strong criticism of the endorsement that would have allowed Thaksin to return to Thailand after five years living in Dubai to escape a two-year jail sentence for corruption.

Read more:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/no-royal-pardon-for-former-thai-pm-after-outcry-20111121-1nqyg.html#ixzz1eLTB52ZN

Sydney Morning Herald - ‎18 minutes ago‎

[connor6063]

Would taking away any chance of him becoming politically involved make everyone happy?

[rubl]

Would taking away any chance of him becoming politically involved make everyone happy?

'everyone happy'? Utopia? Stay cool, keep smiling and dream on, my friend