Bangkok Bank Will Not Payback Fraudulent Pos Transactions W/Stolen Atm Card

[lomatopo]

-adjusting POS maximum spending amounts to a level you are comfortable with (default is set to 50,000 baht per day.

-setting up free SMS alerts for any time 1,000 bt or more is spent via your Be1st Visa Debit Card (also applies to Credit cards)

Can a customer adjust their BBL Be1st Visa Debit Card daily spending limit to ZERO at an ATM, or must you do this in person?

- and if in person, can you advise on the proper language to use when requesting this change to ZERO?

Can you set up SMS alerts at an ATM, or must you do this in person?

- is there any additional fee associated with this service?

Can you confirm that the BBL Be1st Visa Debit Card, which also functions as an ATM card, is guaranteed to be "un-skimmable"?

[ianguygil]

-adjusting POS maximum spending amounts to a level you are comfortable with (default is set to 50,000 baht per day.

-setting up free SMS alerts for any time 1,000 bt or more is spent via your Be1st Visa Debit Card (also applies to Credit cards)

Can a customer adjust their BBL Be1st Visa Debit Card daily spending limit to ZERO at an ATM, or must you do this in person?

- and if in person, can you advise on the proper language to use when requesting this change to ZERO?

Can you set up SMS alerts at an ATM, or must you do this in person?

- is there any additional fee associated with this service?

Can you confirm that the BBL Be1st Visa Debit Card, which also functions as an ATM card, is guaranteed to be "un-skimmable"?

I have 5 mins before a meeting so I will answer a couple of these and will get back to you on the first one....

You can setup SMS Alerts at the ATM

http://www.bangkokba...es/default.aspx

The Be1st Smart Card uses a Chip and cannot be copied (skimming involves simply duplicating a magnetic stripe - you an buy the devices everywhere, sometimes for things like taking credit cards on iPhones)

Here is the link to the Be1st Smart Card. About 80%+ of our ATMs can accept these.

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Personal%20Banking/Be1st%20and%20ATM%20Cards/Be1st%20Smart/Pages/Default.aspx

I will answer your other question in a bit

Edited November 25, 2011 by ianguygil

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm sure Ian or Dave will correct me if I go astray.... But re the Be1St cards...

There are two varieties...the regular one and the "smart" one embedded with the chip.

The smart one has the additional non skimming security features. But unfortunately, it also has various disadvantages including, as best as I recall, not being compatible with other Thai bank ATM machines besides those of BKKB, and not being useable as an ATM card at most or all U.S. bank ATMs.

I think a lot of us have looked at the smart card, weighed its advantages and disadvantages, and decided to pass. But, of course, it all depends on the individual user and how and where they would expect to be using the card.

[Daveroc]

-adjusting POS maximum spending amounts to a level you are comfortable with (default is set to 50,000 baht per day.

-setting up free SMS alerts for any time 1,000 bt or more is spent via your Be1st Visa Debit Card (also applies to Credit cards)

Can a customer adjust their BBL Be1st Visa Debit Card daily spending limit to ZERO at an ATM, or must you do this in person?

- and if in person, can you advise on the proper language to use when requesting this change to ZERO?

Can you set up SMS alerts at an ATM, or must you do this in person?

- is there any additional fee associated with this service?

Can you confirm that the BBL Be1st Visa Debit Card, which also functions as an ATM card, is guaranteed to be "un-skimmable"?

I see most of your questions haver been answered. To tidy up the rest.

Yes you can set the limit to Zero. You need to call our call centre at 1333. English version requires you to then press 2. Having tested the system before answering I note that the automated procedure starts with an option at 20,000 baht. As there are limited requests for a Zero limit you will probably have to take the option of speaking to an operator to do it for you. Have your card with you when you make the call.

the SMS can be set up through the ATM machines and it is free.

[Daveroc]

Dave, thanks for the thoughtful and well-spoken response above... It's good that BKKB has, at least here, attempted to clarify things from a policy perspective. And the policy you recount above, if actually used by the bank, is a fairly reasonable one, IMHO...

But, there are a number of different issues raised by your post. So let me recount some of them and encourage you to further clarify and respond...

--Your opening comment referred only to debit cards... But the lost/theft liability issues for Thai bank/BKKB issued credit cards are just as pertinent. So are BKKB issued VISA logo credit cards covered by the same BKKB policy you discuss above, or if a different one, what theft/loss liability policy applies for those credit cards?

--Since you mention that BKKB's approach to VISA logo debit cards is based on VISA Intl's policy, what about loss/theft liability for Master Card logo cards (debit or credit) that may be issued by BKKB or other Thai banks?

--I was a bit surprised to see you hanging BKKB's policy on the VISA International policy for debit cards... Because, I've called and spoken to VISA Intl in the past directly, and they said in no uncertain terms that their zero fraud liability pledge for VISA logo debit cards is only applicable to U.S. bank issued cards, and they do not enforce or require that in other countries. Can you clarify on that as regards BKKB?

Just to be more clear, yes, the VISA Intl people told me their policy does apply worldwide -- for U.S. bank issued cards. So if you have some reference for VISA Intl saying their debit card liability policy applies to cards issued by banks in other countries, can you provide it?

--Similarly, as you may have seen in one of my posts above, there clearly are some other Thai banks that, at least as far as their VISA and MC credit card products are concerned, are using the "customer liable until 5 minutes after contacting the bank" policy. So that seems to be at odds with your comment about other Thai banks also using the VISA International standard. Unless you intentionally avoided including credit cards in your post comments, because your bank and the others do treat credit cards differently. Can you please clarify?

--I must say, I found myself very surprised to read your recounting of BKKB's policy on debit card theft/loss liability exactly because of the treatment received by the OP in this thread and others in the past who have posted similar experiences with BKKB and other Thai banks as well. If BKKB really has such a policy, I'm wondering why the OP and others seem to get the responses/treatment they get? Where often the local BKKB staff seem to simply dismiss them and say, "you're responsible,' even when they have a timely Thai police report and other appropriate circumstances/evidence. I guess I'm asking, why is it that branch level BKKB staff often seem not to be in tune with the policy you've described above.

--Also, on a bit of a technical point, in your post, you seem at different points to use two very different standards for BKKB determining whether a customer is liable or not. In the first wording, it would seem the burden of proof is kind of on the bank, whereas in the second wording, it seems the burden of proof is on the customer. And that second wording doesn't deal with the "lost" card scenario.

So which version is it? And does that mean if a card is simply "lost," that that bank would consider that customer negligence and hold them responsible?

...Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy. The policy protects cardholders worldwide from unathorised transactions, unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence fraud or collusion.

vs

If someone has been proven to have stolen your card, then in most cases you will not be liable for any transactions. (Assessed case by case)

Not to be overly legal here, but if one were to follow your second wording above, the only way someone could be "proven to have stolen" one's card presumably would be via an arrest by the police and subsequent conviction. Is that the standard you mean to be suggesting?

--Lastly, I guess I should ask, since people like the OP and others seem to often have problems in resolving these kinds of issues with local bank branch staff, what would your recommendation be for a farang BKKB customer be in terms of how to best pursue such an issue, if they find themselves in the unfortunate situation of having charges lodged against a lost/stolen card. Whom to contact first, whom to contact at the next level if the first level is unsatisfactory, what documentation or other supporting material would be needed by the bank.

PS - I forgot to ask, is the policy you've described viewable somewhere by the bank's customers now, either somewhere on the bank's web site or as a printed document available at the head office or branches. If it is viewable, where and how? And if it isn't, shouldn't it be?

Thanks very much. Look forward to your response.

Sir, thank you for your comments. I appreciate you are a man who is keen on the detail. It has taken me some time to gather the material for my answer. I note this perceived tardiness was commented during the days I was pulling material together and not posting updates. I will answer what questions I can on this post and will call it a day.

I entered this forum to endeavor to provide help to customers that may be struggling with BBL and also to correct issues where required. Unfortunately the resources available to me do not allow extensive research and answers such as you are asking for. Given the number of topics I get to comment on, it takes time to find an appropriate source for an answer and at times have the material translated from the National language in order that I can respond. the material is not necessarily at my fingetips.I also have to ensure my answers are not leaving my employer legally exposed.

Also these extensive emails will be archived once this thread finally leaves the front page and very few people will care about it. I also have a day job to attend to.

I appreciate this will not be acceptable to you but i do need to assist a number of others that come through directly to me or PM me. While 100% effective would be great, I am happy with the levels of people we have been able to assist.

As our international base of customers continues to grow we could well put in place a more effective communications route that will become more actively involved in the social media

We accept that policy does not appear on the Website. We are looking to correct this.

The document that provided material for the answers is the Visa Asia Pacific Policy issued to members in November 2005. Probably explains the reaction to your query in the US

It covers debit and credit cards.

I cannot comment on past behaviours or experiences from posters as I have not been part of it. However if a customer feels they are getting unfair treatment at Branch level, they can make contact with the Card Centre. If that does not get the desired response then a formal letter to the Senior Management of the Bank would be a next step.

regards

Dave

[lomatopo]

Daveroc and ianguygil thank you very much for keeping us up to date on these issues, and addressing all of our questions.

Edited November 25, 2011 by lomatopo

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Unfortunately the resources available to me do not allow extensive research and answers such as you are asking for.

Dave, thanks for your response above.. Unfortunately, as the saying goes, "the devil's in the details." And it seems as you're choosing to leave unanswered most of the details-type questions re BKKB's policy that I've posted above, at least for now.

A lot of the confusion and uncertainty over this whole subject would be erased if BKKB would simply make available to its customers, either in paper or online, what it's actual written policies are on liability for BOTH its debit card and credit card products.

I guess we both know those policies, in whatever form they may exist, don't appear to be available via the bank's website. But you seem to have likewise avoided the simple question of whether those policies are available in writing via the branches or the main office. Is that really a question that requires extensive research and consultation??? I wouldn't think so.

You talked in your post about the VISA Intl document from back in 2005 covering both debit and credit cards. But you didn't make clear in your post whether the BKKB policy that you described generally above is also one the bank itself applies to its own credit cards. Once again, that seems a pretty simple, straightfoward yes or no answer.

Rather than leaving folks here trying to interpret and parse your general and sometimes variable description of what BKKB's supposed policies on this matters are, the bank should simply make the applicable policies available for its customers and put an end to the mystery and confusion.

That's assuming, of course, that the bank actually has real written policies on these subjects, and that it's not a situation where bank branch staff and others are responding to the OP's kind of problems in an ad hoc basis without formal procedures and guidelines to follow.

Assuming such real policies exist in writing, the bank's customers have a legitimate right to know them.

[ianguygil]

Daveroc and ianguygil thank you very much for keeping us up to date on these issues, and addressing all of our questions.

We are both very glad to of been of help, it is a pleasure to help reasonable members of the forum.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Well, I had a very interesting and informative telephone conversation with a BKK Bank supervisor this afternoon on the subject of debit card and credit card liability in the event of loss or theft.

I first asked those questions to a regular BKK Bank phone rep, not expecting that she'd know the answer. And she didn't. So after some checking, she passed me along to her supervisor who she said was knowledgeable on the subject. And the supervisor and I had a longer than half hour conversation on the subject, which included the supervisor pausing to call and check with the merchant department of the bank as regards their policies before confirming his answers back to me.

Here's the upshot of that conversation:

Basically, the supervisor said the bank would take responsibility for fraudulent charges, and not hold the customer responsible, for anything that might occur

AFTER the cardholder has reported the card loss or theft to the bank. No surprise about that. That's the AFTER reporting answer.

As to the BEFORE reporting answer, the supervisor basically said, if the case was confirmed to be real fraud via a police report and other evidence, that the bank, possibly together with the police, would work with the merchant(s) involved to try to get the merchants to return the funds in the amount of the fraudulent purchases. But I pressed the supervisor on this point and the ultimate answer was clear: If for whatever reason the merchant doesn't or won't refund the disputed funds, the supervisor said the bank itself would not refund the disputed amount(s) to the customer itself.

I also asked the supervisor if the bank had a written policy that spelled out the bank's practices and actions in dealing with BEFORE reporting and AFTER reporting fraudulent card transactions. And the supervisor said that while the bank had broad language about cardholders having a duty to safeguard their cards and promptly report any loss/theft, the supervisor said the bank doesn't have a written policy that spells out the answers/practices he provided verbally above about what the bank will and won't do in cases of lost/stolen cards, and transactions before and after the loss/theft is reported.

The supervisor also said the BEFORE and AFTER reporting liability scenarios we discussed, at least for BKKB, apply equally to their debit card and credit card products.

Nowhere in the conversation, including after talking to the bank's merchant department, did the supervisor say anything about the bank abiding by or being governed by VISA's no liability pledge for fraud such as it exists for U.S. bank-issued cards.

It's very unfortunate that some folks here find it unreasonable that a bank customer should expect clarity about their personal liability for lost/stolen bank debit and credit cards, and to have some clear understanding of how their bank will treat those kinds of cases.

It's also less than reassuring to be informed, based on the BKKB supervisor's version, that in the event my BKKB debit or credit card is lost or stolen and then used illegally by others, that BKKB itself won't take any direct responsibility for refunding the charges and instead ultimately leaves the entire issue with the merchant(s) involved.

Edited November 25, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, in light of this entire conversation, I used the BKKB telephone response system today to reset the daily limits associated with my Be1st Card.

--Set the daily POS limit to ZERO, so if the card should ever fall into the wrong hands, it can't be used by thieves to make POS purchases that I'll be held responsible for.

--Set the daily ATM withdrawal limit to 50,000 baht. According to the voice response system and confirmed by bank staff over the telephone, they can't/won't allow the customer to set any lower an ATM amount than 50,000 baht per day. But at least the ATM withdrawals are protected by a PIN code, unlike the Point-of-Sale purchases.

The phone system is a little funky, in that there are separate menu choices for asking the system what one's daily limits are for both POS and ATM actions, and then likewise separate menu choices to change either of those limits. Then after making the changes, I went back for a third round to have the system tell me/confirm what my new daily limits were.

Just fyi, the available daily limit values for POS, other than zero, are listed as 20,000, 50,000, 100,000 and 150,000 baht. So depending on the current value for one's card, that could give a potential card thief a lot of POS spending power before the victimized cardholder would have a chance to put a stop to it via reporting to the bank.

Edited November 25, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[monty]

I fortunately have not been on the receiving end of fraud through my banking cards, but relating to this topic I do have some experience from a merchants point of view.

Running a resort/pub and using a Bkk Bank EDC terminal, we have twice been asked to provide the bank with a copy of the signed slip of a particular transaction.

In both cases they were genuine transactions, once a customer staying in a room, so cross check against his passport on record showed he was the genuine owner of the card, the second time a long time regular who fell out with one of the staff members and left in a bad mood after settling his bill with his card (he usually paid with that same card).

Both times the card used was a Thai issued visa electron debit card. One a Bkk bank one and the other Kasikorn.

Likely for both transactions the card owners put in a claim, I do not know the nature of the claim (stolen card, unauthorized use,...) as Bkk bank does not inform the merchant of that.

In one case I'm pretty sure it was a false claim done by a disgruntled customer maybe thinking he could scam us out of his payment, the other I have no idea what happened, on the customer's bank records payments through our EDC terminal show up with the actual resort name and not the operating Co., Ltd. ( which might be unknown to the customer creating confusion).

As these were genuine transactions, we never heard more from it, not sure what would have happened if we could not provide the slips, or slips with wrong signatures.

Which doesn't help the OP much, apart from showing that indeed it can be very difficult for the issuing bank to differentiate between false and genuine claims.

What would the bank have to do if a customer buys himself a 50,000 Baht gold chain with his card, signs with a wrong signature (easy to find a shop which doesn't check very carefully), then goes on to throw his card in the garbage and makes a claim.

Right on the same level as the gazillion false insurance claims done by tourists (especially here in Pattaya). The local cops are pretty clued on nowadays when tourists pop in with claims, but I doubt they would much doubt a local Farang simply declaring the loss of his wallet, which unfortunately held his ATM Card...

Although nowadays with some detective work it should not be all that difficult, what with so many shops having CCTV recorders which can be checked against the timestamp of the transaction...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for the elaboration, Monty.. Interesting perspective...

Just curious about one of the things you noted. If one of the transactions you mentioned had instead and in fact have been done with a stolen or fraudulent card....and the bank later determined that alone or with help from the police...

Do they have the ability to deduct the funds from your account somehow, assuming it was an immediate payment with a debit card? ... Or would they come asking you to somehow return the proceeds gained from the fraud transaction? The bank seems to take the position the merchant should be financially responsible, if the card and transaction signatures don't match.

In your business though, I'd assume you have an advantage over most merchants. In that, whenever you have a residing customer, presumably you're getting a copy of their passport/photo ID as part of the normal check-in process...which ought to allow you some confidence that your resident and card holder are one and the same. Most merchants don't do that, however.

The whole thing about slip signatures does seem kind of ridiculous here. After living here for years and using my U.S. bank cards regularly for purchases of all kinds, very few of the cashiers I ever deal with ever pay any attention in the least to comparing the transaction slip signature with the card signature.

And even fewer bother to ask for any kind of photo ID in connection with a card-based purchase, which I'd happily provide if asked. Likewise, I'd assume everything would operate much more securely if banking here transitioned to using PIN based card purchases instead of swipe and sign ones.... Hmmm....

[Swiss1960]

While I can not directly comment about Thailand, let me give you some general (European) thoughts:

Do they have the ability to deduct the funds from your account somehow, assuming it was an immediate payment with a debit card? ... Or would they come asking you to somehow return the proceeds gained from the fraud transaction? The bank seems to take the position the merchant should be financially responsible, if the card and transaction signatures don't match.

Normally, the disputes & chargeback transaction processing does not allow Card Issuing banks to deduct funds from the merchant accounts. The Issuing bank enters a chargeback towards the Acquiring bank (merchant bank) and once accepted (along a manual of several hundred pages that also describes arbitration situations between Issuer and Acquirer), the acquirer will return the fund to the Issuer through VSIA / MC accounts (intermediary accounts). Acquirers will then deduct from the merchant and Issuers will refund the cardholder.

Thus, even if an Issuer would loose a chargeback request, it is up to him and his own customer care policy (and of course local consumer protection acts) whether he might still refund the cardholder and write off the fraud transaction on his own. Refundind fraudulent transactions made before the card was reported stolen therefore depends also on the internal valuation of the customer within his bank.

And even fewer bother to ask for any kind of photo ID in connection with a card-based purchase, which I'd happily provide if asked. Likewise, I'd assume everything would operate much more securely if banking here transitioned to using PIN based card purchases instead of swipe and sign ones.... Hmmm....

As long as banks do not have the obligation to refund money to their customers, their interest in more secure systems is low. You could clearly see this within Europe. The UK was the first country to issue chip based (EMV) cards, because their fraud level with skimmed cards (skimming = copying mag stripe to other cards) was going through the roof. Of course, the pressure from the consumer protection act was very high, as banks had to start to write off these transactions themselves. Thus, there was a joint excercise between banks and acquirers to introduce chip cards and - few years later - switch to PIN based transactions at POS. The rest of Europe followed years later as fraud switched to their countries. In Switzerland as an example, the first chip cards were issued around 10 years ago, the last Issuer started only 4 years ago... Chip and PIN transactions only now start to be rolled out and it will take another 2 years until we have country wide coverage.

But remember, the merchant POS still needs to accomodate all the foreign cards that do not have EMV chips (i.e. US cards) or have EMV chips but do not support PIN transactions (each card / POS has a so-called CVM - card verification method - list on it's mag stripe that says which authorisation method is supported in which priority and POS and card will negotiate the preferred authorisation method against each others CVM list). The merchant wants to do business and will accept any card transaction in order to make his profit.

Finally, you say that you would be happy to show your ID when you make the purchase. Fine, thank you... but look at it from a merchant point of view: First, even checking the signature will not help too much. Look at the signature on the back of the card... small strip of paper, unreadable signatures, forged with 2 minutes of testing by every thief... second, if you only show the ID, it might help, but what with all the cards that do not carry your name on it? Then the merchant would need to make a copy of the ID and keep it for up to 6 months (according to the manuals) and somehow link that copy to the transaction made (how do you want to do that for tens of thousands of electronic transactions versus ID copies?)...

And most important: The cashier behind his terminal must sell... sell fast, as there are customers waiting to pay for their goods... cashiers must make their transactions FAST and are not given the time to check ID's or even make copies and write down transaction ID's on the copies of your passport... You know the reason why Chip and PIN transactions are introduced? Only to make transaction processing faster in order to have higher sales and smaller queues in front of the POS...

I give you two examples of speed of transaction vs. fraud write-off risk: UK is proud of their chip and PIN system... when I arrived at LHR (having a chip and PIN card), I needed two tickets for Heathrow Express to Paddington... sales persons are waiting inside the terminal already... I bought two tickets for £100... transaction was magstripe swipe, no signature... now such a transaction can be disputed by my Issuing bank within seconds with 100% success rate... and Heathrow Express Acquiring bank nows this... but obviously, such transactions tend not to be disputed, that is why they take the risk to make such transactions, as 200 potential customers for Heathrow express arrive with the same plane at the same time... just speed of transaction...

The other example was the hotel (international chain)... on arrival, they read the card (chip based) and make a pre-authorisation checking validity of the card and the availability of funds for two nights... when I left, the invoice was much higher (food, drinks etc.), BUT they did not want to see my card again, they did not want any signature (not even on the invoice) and again, such transactions would be highly likely to be successfully disputed... when I asked the cashier, she told me that they do not want to bother their international travellers with such inconvenient things like showing the card again and signing slips... obviously, they don't have any relevant fraud and thus, customer experience is valuated higher than possible fraud...

How to change? The government must put the burden on their banks with better consumer protection laws. Only if banks feel the pressure to write off fraudulent transactions on their own, they will raise the pressure on the acquiring banks to press their merchants with more secure terminals for more secure cards giving more secure transactions... that is the reality.

[x5david]

Thai banks will always screw the farang....if this had been a Thai customer they would have been falling all over themselves to help...

[tombkk]

Thai banks will always screw the farang....if this had been a Thai customer they would have been falling all over themselves to help...

I personally doubt that Thai and farang customers are treated less friendly by the banks, but I wonder what makes you think so. Kindly elaborate.

Bangkok Bank even has a department specialised in foreigners, I forgot what they call it but they have booths at many fairs and exhibitions targeting expatriates. These people speak English (and probably other languages) and understand the needs of foreigners.

[lomatopo]

Personally I’d like to see all cards embossed with a real full name in English and account number, with a picture of the card-holder, and require a PIN, either pre-chosen or OTP via mobile phone, for any/all credit/debit transactions.

I feel that banks here need to address the fraud issues by implementing security protocols and then push these, and responsibilities, onto merchants. They also need to implement fraud-protection/avoidance schemes used in other countries. And they need to clearly communicate the card-holders responsibilities in the case of loss, theft or account compromise.

Re; BBL specifically, I’d like to see additional daily ATM levels at BBL, below 50,000; maybe 20,000 and 10,000. If your card gets skimmed and your PIN observed, then your account can get cleaned out while you are out of the country on a trip. And add SMS alerts for amounts down to 500 baht.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

How to change? The government must put the burden on their banks with better consumer protection laws. Only if banks feel the pressure to write off fraudulent transactions on their own, they will raise the pressure on the acquiring banks to press their merchants with more secure terminals for more secure cards giving more secure transactions... that is the reality.

Thanks for the interesting and informative post, Swiss.... I certainly agree with your comments above. But unfortunately in Thailand, there is little if any movement for better consumer protection laws. And thus the unsecure system continues, and Thai people seem to accept as the norm that they'll be held responsible by their banks for charges that thieves put against lost/stolen cards. And the banks of course are happy to continue doing so.

Sometimes, some people here in this thread incorrectly accuse me of saying everything in Thailand should resemble American standards, because I'm an American. Well, I often use those comparisons, good or bad ones, because that's my frame of reference. But when it comes to banking security, I'll be the first to say the U.S. is no model to be followed -- except for one area.

Because the government, and perhaps the bankers, understood that U.S. consumers would never readily use bank cards for purchases if they the consumer were going to be held responsible for fraudulent transactions, the U.S. federal government passed nationwide laws, which cover ALL U.S. banks and their customers, that in large part leave the cardholder without any liability for fraud with lost and stolen/cards, even for charges before the card is reported stolen, provided the cardholder reports reasonably promptly.

Thus Americans with U.S. bank issued cards can pretty much use and carry them without any great fear or hesitation, because even if their card is skimmed or stolen or similar, they know they won't be held liable in most cases. Very little is left up to the individual banks' discretion or policies on that. The federal laws are very specific, detailed and clear.

Unlike Thailand, U.S. cardholders usually don't have to go begging to their bankers when such problems occur, or get the bankers runaround like the OP in this thread recounted. There is a clear, well-documented and established public policy system that everyone follows -- again unlike here in Thailand.

I don't know, in the case of fraudulent card transactions in the U.S., how the banks and the merchants handle the financial loss among themselves. But the victimized consumer gets their refunds returned. And I assume the banks and the merchants look at it as a cost of doing business, and having a retail system where consumers don't hesitate to carry and use their credit and debit cards, which is good for the banks and merchants.

Clearly, in the U.S. and elsewhere, some more secure bank card systems are needed -- ones that as you pointed out, balance the need for banking security with the merchants' need for speed and efficiency in handling transactions.

Back in the U.S., even though swipe and sign is still common, a lot of merchants also have and use PIN-based card terminals. And in my experience, using those usually is just about as fast as a swipe and sign transaction. At least that's my sense. If I had the choice in Thailand, I'd certainly prefer to do PIN transactions instead of swipe and sign.

In the end, all I want for Thailand, or anywhere else, is a banking system that's fair and equitable to all involved. If a consumer/cardholder is victimized by thieves but promptly reports the card loss as soon as they become aware of it, most reasonable people would agree the cardholder shouldn't be held liable for the fraudulent charges involved in that. Unfortunately, that's not the way it often works in Thailand right now.

[tombkk]

Unlike Thailand, U.S. cardholders usually don't have to go begging to their bankers when such problems occur, or get the bankers runaround like the OP in this thread recounted. There is a clear, well-documented and established public policy system that everyone follows -- again unlike here in Thailand.

I don't know, in the case of fraudulent card transactions in the U.S., how the banks and the merchants handle the financial loss among themselves. But the victimized consumer gets their refunds returned. And I assume the banks and the merchants look at it as a cost of doing business, and having a retail system where consumers don't hesitate to carry and use their credit and debit cards, which is good for the banks and merchants.

Possible, and it's also risk management. I understand that the banks make most money on the credit cards on the interests, so they are not happy if you always pay in full.

Do the American card holders on average have a record of paying only the minimum, or at least less than the full amount each month? Do the Thai card holders on average pay in full, or almost in full?

I don't know whether these statistics are published, they might be internal to every bank. However, it might be a factor.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Loma, that's a great post below... I heartily concur with your various suggestions.... Going to the photo embossed cards in another approach, and one that's presumably more secure and quicker than comparing signatures.

I too was very surprised at finding BKK Bank wouldn't allow its customers to set a lower daily ATM withdrawal limit than 50,000 baht. I don't know/understand why??? 50K is a lot for me as a daily withdrawal limit. But think about ordinary Thai people upcountry... 50K could well be much of their year's earnings.

The lack of transparency is how the banks treat their customers is this area is another troublesome point. Try getting your local Thai bank branch to explain the bank's policy on lost/stolen card liability. Or better yet, try asking your local Thai bank branch for a copy of their policy on lost/stolen card liability, or finding such policies anywhere on their websites.

Personally I'd like to see all cards embossed with a real full name in English and account number, with a picture of the card-holder, and require a PIN, either pre-chosen or OTP via mobile phone, for any/all credit/debit transactions.

I feel that banks here need to address the fraud issues by implementing security protocols and then push these, and responsibilities, onto merchants. They also need to implement fraud-protection/avoidance schemes used in other countries. And they need to clearly communicate the card-holders responsibilities in the case of loss, theft or account compromise.

Re; BBL specifically, I'd like to see additional daily ATM levels at BBL, below 50,000; maybe 20,000 and 10,000. If your card gets skimmed and your PIN observed, then your account can get cleaned out while you are out of the country on a trip. And add SMS alerts for amounts down to 500 baht.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Do the American card holders on average have a record of paying only the minimum, or at least less than the full amount each month? Do the Thai card holders on average pay in full, or almost in full?

Tom, I don't know all the answers and details to those questions. But I can say, it's very normal for the typical American to carry a revolving balance on their credit cards and to pay some interest on those balances month to month.

Generally speaking, the typical debt levels were higher a few years back, but supposedly have lessen some in the past few years amid the economic downturn. But still, I'd say carrying some levels of credit card balance is the norm... and a smaller portion of folks pay their balance in full each month.

Re Thais, my impression from the data I've seen is that for those who have credit cards (remember the government/banking industry adopted a yearly income eligibility standard some time back, 15,000 baht per year for Thais, I think), that's it's pretty normal to carry revolving balances. I had an article from The Nation the other day that had data showing the average balance for a Thai with a credit card was about 17,000 baht...

BTW, considering that the Thai banks charge a standard 20% APR interest on their credit card products, while market interest rates are below 5%, one could make the case that they have a financial cushion built into their system for handling card-related fraud issues.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thai banks will always screw the farang....if this had been a Thai customer they would have been falling all over themselves to help...

Likewise to Tom's response, I don't think your perception above is accurate.

When I talk to average Thais on this subject, their typical response is that if their bank card were to get stolen and used by thieves, they expect that their bank will hold them responsible for the charges. That seems to be the societal norm here.

If there's any issue for farangs, it's probably moreso that a lot of Thai bank staff don't speak English or speak it well, so there becomes a language communication problem added into an already murky area -- that being what the banks' policies are re lost/stolen card liability.

Your perception "might" be correct if the Thai involved is some hi-so type or a VIP customer with the bank for whatever reason, whom the bank wants to keep happy. But for the average working class Thai, I seriously doubt it.

Edited November 26, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[lomatopo]

Following up...

Yesterday I applied for "SMS Alerts" at a BBL ATM. I received a confirming SMS. Today I withdrew 1,500 Baht as a test. I have not received an SMS alert as of yet, some 4 hours later. Should one expect an SMS Alert in a timely fashion?

Based on this limited experience I'd have to say that relying on SMS Alerts to monitor one's account seems problematic.

edited to add:

OK, my bad. I now see that SMS Alerts only apply to:

1,000Bt or more is spent with your Be1st debit card.*

1,000Bt or more is spent with your Bangkok Bank credit card.*

A credit card payment is due (three days in advance).

Funds have been remitted into your account from overseas.

and not to any/all activity on the account.

This is disappointing as this makes it impossible to guard against ATM card theft/loss/compromise (skimming, with video camera to capture PIN).

Do any other banks have full SMS alerts available?

Edited November 26, 2011 by lomatopo

[lomatopo]

And I just tried to change my Be1st daily POS limit to ZERO. As mentioned ZERO is not an automated option (the reason given for not making this an option based on low demand seems curious when all it really requires is one additional prompt in the tree), and there was no escape to a LIVE AGENT. BTW, the English-language prompts are very challenging to understand, at least for me.

Can anyone share the path to a LIVE AGENT who can change my daily POS to ZERO? Dial 1333 press 2, then ???

It seems like BBL really wants to make it overly challenging for customers to protect their account(s).

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Loma, you've got a couple different issues going here... and I went thru the same ordeal yesterday, as posted above. The BKKB phone menu system is not very user friendly...

1. So you're saying that the SMS alerts, which I haven't tried set up yet via BKKB ATM, only apply to credit and debit card purchases, but not ATM cash withdrawals with the Be1st card???

2. It is possible, via the phone menu system, to set your POS to zero, although it may not seem like it... I had the same experience yesterday... When you get to the voice menu where the system lists the various POS amount options in gradually larger amounts, the ZERO option for some odd reason is the very last on the list, after the highest amount, and is chosen I believe by pressing option 5 at that point. It seemed like there also was some pause in time after the #4 option, before the recording went on to list #5 as zero. I too thought initially that the system wasn't going to give me ZERO as a choice.

3. And I had the same frustration, in that those POS and ATM daily limits menus don't give any apparent way to get to a live BKKB CSR along the way, if one needs that... I think I got there by pressing zero, or hanging up, calling back, and starting with the main menu and somehow finding a choice to speak to a live person...as I recall...by choosing the "Banking Services" option.

4. Lastly, as I mentioned, after I finished that whole phone system process including going back into those menus a third time to have the system tell me my update settings, which were correct, I called back to speak to a CSR...and as part of that chat, asked her to check my limits and verbally confirm them to me... When she checked and answered, she reported my limit for POS was 50,000, not the zero amount I had just set and confirmed with the phone system.

After some back and forth on that, she said the system that she pulls info from only gets updated daily at or around after midnight, so her system wouldn't yet be showing the changes I'd just made through the phone system. Why the phone system recognizes the change right away, but the info the CSRs have doesn't reflect that... I have no idea... That's just a footnote... in case anyone else would decide to call and check on their outcome.

[4evermaat]

Following up...

Yesterday I applied for "SMS Alerts" at a BBL ATM. I received a confirming SMS. Today I withdrew 1,500 Baht as a test. I have not received an SMS alert as of yet, some 4 hours later. Should one expect an SMS Alert in a timely fashion?

Based on this limited experience I'd have to say that relying on SMS Alerts to monitor one's account seems problematic.

edited to add:

OK, my bad. I now see that SMS Alerts only apply to:

1,000Bt or more is spent with your Be1st debit card.*

1,000Bt or more is spent with your Bangkok Bank credit card.*

A credit card payment is due (three days in advance).

Funds have been remitted into your account from overseas.

and not to any/all activity on the account.

This is disappointing as this makes it impossible to guard against ATM card theft/loss/compromise (skimming, with video camera to capture PIN).

Do any other banks have full SMS alerts available?

You also get an SMS if someone deposits 1000 plus into your account. I think transactions where you are using your own card with pin, the original programmers of alert system assumed that only the cardholder would know the pin, so no need to alert the transaction.

I have a question about the skimming thing. How does this happen at the atm? I understand it can happen at a restaurant/store/disgruntled spouse if the card leaves your sight. A restaurant or gas station is more probable, but in 90% of the cases the card is ran in plain view of cashier. How could someone attach something like that at the ATM machine? Unless it is microscopic, wouldn't it be obvious? The atm video....how would the same person skimming also own the camera?

I dug up the envelope that I got with my new debit card. It had a form for the bangkok bank insurance if you wanted it. And it had on the back of the page that has the debit card adhesive, a short list in thai/english of debit card dos/donts. I did not see the small packet of "Terms of Service" that is common with USA debit cards. I have scanned and attached that form here in color. I was reading the bulleted points and found they were on par with precautions I already take ( i don't change my pin every 3 months though).

Be 1st mini ToS color.pdf

I guess the only outstanding issue is whether or not these Terms of Service which clearly outlines cardholder and bank rights/responsibilities exists and is readily available for cardholder to review. I think part of the reason why it is not in clear writing is because of the possible conflict/legal technicality with existing Visa procedures dealing with the Zero-Liability rule. It would really open a can of worms in terms of collusion fraud. I don't mean to sound harsh, but the bank does not want to reward people for carelessness.

Look on the flip side to this. Say you got your desired level of "Zero Liability" in writing in plain thai (with english translation). Then the banks would have to put 1-3 day business holds all money transfers and limit other conveniences. The instant access to your funds via ATM/CDM, combined high withdrawal/POS limits that can be adjusted by the user require that the user is familiar with and responsible enough to properly safeguard their passbook and atm card, neither of which are difficult to do. Security is only as strong as the weakest link, and I think in this case the cardholder is the weakest link. It is really up to you to ensure that you protect the password to the different access points, mainly internet banking, walk-in branch, and your atm card.

Dave and Ian have done what they could. They cannot make up new policies, only relay what is already in place. And they have gone much further than an average thai rep would have done to gather facts about what the rules are.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4ever, it seems like you're making a lot of excuses for the shortcomings of BKKB and the other Thai banks... And under the circumstances, it's hardly surprising that the supposed policy description on cardholder liability that BKKB employee Dave gave above in this thread is different than the version related by the BKKB supervisor with whom I spoke on the phone yesterday at length.

It really begins to sound like they don't actually have a written policy on such matters. It isn't posted on the bank's website, and the two BKKB reps here in this thread ignored my question about whether such a document was available for review either at the bank's headquarters or at the branches. And of course the BKKB supervisor I spoke with in fact said the bank doesn't have any written policy for how it handles cardholder liability issues. Add to that, none of us with BKKB cards here thus far ever recall ever getting or seeing such a document before.

As for your question, card skimming at ATMs (or elsewhere) can be done in a couple of different ways... Attaching some kind of card reader device onto the front of the ATM is one approach. The customer thinks they're just putting their card into the ATM, not realizing there's a kind of false front or section in front of the actual ATM card slot. In other settings like restaurants, when the wait staff walks away with your card, they could hand it quickly to another person with a card reader and then process your bill and hand it back to you.

I think that's the reason sometimes security types recommend that people don't use standalone ATMs, and instead use ATMs at staffed bank branches, because the ATMs at the latter are probably more closely watched and serviced, and probably a more unlikely target for attempted card skimming compared to a solo ATM all by itself.

Separately, I think your assumption about the VISA no fraud liability policy regarding Thailand is wrong. As I mentioned previously in this thread, I've called VISA Intl in the past and talked with them specifically about that subject, and was told the VISA no fraud liability policy only applies to U.S. bank issued cards. I spent a long time searching the VISA Intl web site a year or so back looking for any mention of that policy, and found none. That was what led to my call.

Also, I see today that the VISA USA web site on that subject specifically says the policy only applies to U.S. issued cards... It also includes exceptions for gross negligence, fraud, delay in reporting authorized use, etc. See the following:

http://usa.visa.com/..._liability.html

If your account is compromised, Visa is committed to setting things right without further aggravation or inconvenience to you. Visa’s cardholder protection policy requires all financial institutions issuing Visa products to extend provisional credit for losses from unauthorized card use within 5 business days of notification of the loss.

And note footnote #1:

]¹Covers U.S.-issued cards only. [/b] Does not apply to ATM transactions, PIN transactions not processed by Visa, or certain commercial card transactions. Individual provisional credit amounts are provided on a provisional basis and may be withheld, delayed, limited, or rescinded by your issuer based on factors such as gross negligence or fraud, delay in reporting unauthorized use, investigation and verification of claim and account standing and history. You must notify your financial institution immediately of any unauthorized use. Transaction at issue must be posted to your account before provisional credit may be issued. For specific restrictions, limitations and other details, please consult your issuer.

Here's the VISA site for Southeast Asia

^{http://www.visa-asia...ces/index.shtml}

^{And here's the card security page for VISA Southeast Asia. No mention of "no fraud liability" or "zero liability" anywhere that I can see there.}

^{http://www.visa-asia...ity/index.shtml}

^{Enter the VISA policy term "zero liability" in the web search box on the VISA Southeast Asia page and you get zero hits/results.}

^{Meanwhile, here's a summary of the applicable U.S. regulations on cardholder liability for lost/stolen/skimmed credit and debit cards, which apply for all the U.S. card issuers including VISA, MC, AMEX and other logo cards.}

^{http://www.ftc.gov/b...edit/cre04.shtm}

To be clear -- neither the U.S. law that is the basis for these consumer protections nor the VISA policy are blanket. All of the applicable provisions make exceptions for fraud, undue delays in reporting, etc.

In the U.S., the legal protections for consumers are somewhat different for credit cards (stronger) vs. debit cards (somewhat weaker). But even for debit cards, as long as you report to your bank within two business days of LEARNING of any loss or theft, you're pretty well protected.

Lastly, it's a mystery to me where you get the notion that a no fraud liability policy would somehow cause the Thai banks to "1-3 day business holds all money transfers and limit other conveniences." What do money transfers have to do with credit and debit card liability?

Edited November 26, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[tombkk]

Do the American card holders on average have a record of paying only the minimum, or at least less than the full amount each month? Do the Thai card holders on average pay in full, or almost in full?

Tom, I don't know all the answers and details to those questions. But I can say, it's very normal for the typical American to carry a revolving balance on their credit cards and to pay some interest on those balances month to month.

Generally speaking, the typical debt levels were higher a few years back, but supposedly have lessen some in the past few years amid the economic downturn. But still, I'd say carrying some levels of credit card balance is the norm... and a smaller portion of folks pay their balance in full each month.

Re Thais, my impression from the data I've seen is that for those who have credit cards (remember the government/banking industry adopted a yearly income eligibility standard some time back, 15,000 baht per year for Thais, I think), that's it's pretty normal to carry revolving balances. I had an article from The Nation the other day that had data showing the average balance for a Thai with a credit card was about 17,000 baht...

BTW, considering that the Thai banks charge a standard 20% APR interest on their credit card products, while market interest rates are below 5%, one could make the case that they have a financial cushion built into their system for handling card-related fraud issues.

Hm, we have no facts about the average amount of revolving credit, and we can only make assumptions about the average card holder calculating what the interest means for them.

Not much to go on to understand the banks' risk-management policies. I do believe that they take what they can get away with, and it requires a consumer-protection law to make them change their policies.

[4evermaat]

4ever, it seems like you're making a lot of excuses for the shortcomings of BKKB and the other Thai banks... And under the circumstances, it's hardly surprising that the supposed policy description on cardholder liability that BKKB employee Dave gave above in this thread is different than the version related by the BKKB supervisor with whom I spoke on the phone yesterday at length.

It really begins to sound like they don't actually have a written policy on such matters. It isn't posted on the bank's website, and the two BKKB reps here in this thread ignored my question about whether such a document was available for review either at the bank's headquarters or at the branches. And of course the BKKB supervisor I spoke with in fact said the bank doesn't have any written policy for how it handles cardholder liability issues. Add to that, none of us with BKKB cards here thus far ever recall ever getting or seeing such a document before.

......

Separately, I think your assumption about the VISA no fraud liability policy regarding Thailand is wrong. As I mentioned previously in this thread, I've called VISA Intl in the past and talked with them specifically about that subject, and was told the VISA no fraud liability policy only applies to U.S. bank issued cards. I spent a long time searching the VISA Intl web site a year or so back looking for any mention of that policy, and found none. That was what led to my call.

Well, it looks like they are not having a written policy on the specific subject of VISA credit/debit card-related fraud is in place for a reason. I agree on one hand it would make it more clear where the line is drawn on what the bank can and cannot do. But since even VISA company themselves have made clear that non-US bank issued cards do not have the zero-liability policy, then the banks are free to draw their own boundaries.

I am curious to know how the thai banks handle chargebacks. There is no written information on that either. I've assumed up until now (and based on reading a couple of forum posts) that it's extremely difficult to get the bank to process chargeback and credit you funds in case the merchant did not deliver the goods. Naturally I am more hesitant to purchase something from an unknown or risky merchant with thai debit card wheras with my USA credit/debit card i am more apt to making purchases, knowing that any funny business by merchant can be resolved quickly.

BTW, CREDIT CARD and DEBIT CARD with visa logo are handled slightly differently when it comes to chargebacks in the USA. I know with debit card, some banks may wait 30 days before processing chargeback request on DEBIT card transactions. It was always a good idea to use Credit card whenever possible with more risky purchases and then just pay off your credit card vs using debit card, which is linked to your bank account. But this thread is about fraud, which is much more immediate in issuing provisional credits.

.......

Lastly, it's a mystery to me where you get the notion that a no fraud liability policy would somehow cause the Thai banks to "1-3 day business holds all money transfers and limit other conveniences." What do money transfers have to do with credit and debit card liability?

It has to do with managing risk. There would either have to be an insurance policy or a delay in payout at some point in the merchant processing chain to protect the parties involved. If the debit card's bank is promising the merchant immediate approval of transaction to deliver the goods, followed by same/next business day money credit to their merchant account, then the bank has to be nearly 100% sure that the transaction is intentional and legitimate. There would always be that small percentage that will be fraudulent, in which fees or other reserves can adequately cover. But if the transaction is not legit, then the funds for the transaction would have to be held until the case has been resolved. This in turn makes it difficult for the merchant to hand over their products/services until payment is cleared. The customer would have to wait also. So to keep the money flowing with nearly the same cleared speed as cash transaction, the bank places the responsibility of the use of the card with the issued cardholder. For US-Based cards, the victim may think the chargeback process is seemless, but the money does comes from somewhere, and the merchant can often times lose inventory or money. Plus the merchant still have to pay fees anyway, just for running the card. Of course there are ways for the merchants to minimize the risk, but that's another thread. I doubt in Thailand or other countries merchants really want too many headaches when accepting credit cards. It's a balance between convenience and risk.

The only way the card transaction cannot be legitimate is skimmed card or unauthorized use of original card. Of course if you treat the card the same as cash and are more diligent about your decisions, or use some of the other money management techniques covered this will not happen. I'm sure dan/ian will uncover more and elaborate when they can. I don't think they are avoiding your questions. Perhaps dan/ian should provide examples of fraud they have to investigate, to give us more insight on how the bank handles these types of cases.

Edited November 27, 2011 by 4evermaat

[4evermaat]

.......

Do any other banks have full SMS alerts available?

I think K-bank may have what you are looking for at 20 baht/account/month:

Be informed of changes in deposit balance by SMS alert when the available balance has changed, on an hourly basis. The alert will be made only when the balance has changed from the previous hour, in order to inform customers of every transaction and the latest balance of their deposit account. Details that customers will receive are as follows:

- Account number

- Change of balance

- Available balance

- Time of change

2) Account Alert Package

Be informed of every deposit account transaction by SMS. Details that customers will receive are as follows:

2.1 Be informed of all credit transactions of deposit account, except interest of savings account, from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. Details of transactions posted after 10 p.m. will be sent at 7 a.m. the next day.

2.2 Be informed of all debit transactions of deposit account from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. Details of transactions posted after 10 p.m. will be sent at 7 a.m. the next day.

2.3 Be informed of available balance of deposit account when there is any change, at the top of every hour, but without information of amount increased or decreased.

2.4 Service users can select a minimum amount that will trigger an SMS alert, or the Bank will send information of every transaction.

........

Complete details here: http://www.kasikornbank.com/EN/ServicesChannel/SearchServiceChannel/K-mAlert/Pages/Transaction_Alert.aspx

ian/dave, does BBK offer more thorough sms alert feature, even if paid? One of the most interesting reads from the K-bank page was that you could adjust the alert trigger amount to any amount you desire. BBK has the debit card alert trigger amount hard-coded to 1,000 baht. Can this be increased/decreased upon request?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just a couple adds on this subject...

1. I sent a PM to the OP in this thread on Friday evening, after the close of the Thai business day, simply asking if he had had any resolution of his issue with BKKB. It's now Monday morning and the OP hasn't responded to my PM or posted here since then. I could be wrong on this, but I'd hazard a guess that we may not hear anything further from the OP on this subject, perhaps as part of some accommodation with the bank.

2. As for someone's comment that Dave or Ian might clarify the bank's practices handling liability for card fraud, I think Dave's prior post pretty clearly indicated he's not interested or inclined in clarifying much on this subject. In fact, I'd suspect that the bank would like nothing more than for this subject to disappear and drop off the radar screen, so they can continue doing what they've been doing all along, a la, the OP post in this thread.

For a recap of the various questions and issues left unanswered by Dave's post, see this prior post in this thread. And Dave's response to those questions was:

Unfortunately the resources available to me do not allow extensive research and answers such as you are asking for..... I appreciate this will not be acceptable to you but i do need to assist a number of others that come through directly to me or PM me.

"Extensive research" to answer questions like: does Dave's supposed policy include debit and credit cards? Or, if the bank really has such a policy, where can bank customers read it or obtain a copy? "Extensive research," really???

3. I neglected to mention this earlier in response to Dave's post on the bank's supposed policy. Dave wrote regarding VISA Intl:

Bangkok Bank, indeed all banks operating Visa cards worldwide, assess cases according to Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy. The policy protects cardholders worldwide from unathorised transactions, unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence fraud or collusion. The policy does not apply to ATM transactions which are PIN based.

I think in my prior posts I've pretty clearly shown what he's written above appears patently false. To recap:

--the U.S. VISA site specifically says VISA's zero fraud liability policy only applies to U.S. issued cards.

--the VISA Southeast Asia web site makes absolutely no mention of any such policy or even any specific info on cardholder liability.

--when I've spoken to VISA Intl in the past, they've indicated outside the U.S., cardholder liability is up to the banks themselves and/or national regulations.

--and of course, the BKKB supervisor I spoke with on the phone gave a totally different version of the bank's supposed policy from Dave's post.

Now, let me add as another nail in that coffin, if Dave's claim had even the remotest likelihood of being true, then perhaps he should explain how, as I've posted earlier in this thread, HSBC Bank Thailand has a policy publicly posted on their Thailand website that specifically says cardholders of their VISA and MC credit card products are liable for any charges up until 5 minutes after any card is reported as lost or stolen to the bank, no matter what other circumstances apply? [Re the HSBC policy, see this prior post in this thread.]

And how, although I couldn't find it again lately, I'd read exactly the same "five minutes" policy from a different Thai bank on their web site some months back? "Five minutes after" certainly isn't "assess[ing] cases according to Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy," as Dave claimed all banks worldwide issuing VISA cards do.

If what Dave wrote was true, it certainly would seem very odd that at least two other Thai banks have posted policies that are entirely at odds with the VISA zero liability policy in the U.S.

Questions, questions.... and ones that BKK Bank isn't answering in any kind of credible way...

Where's the written cardholder policy, BKK Bank? If you have it, show it or post it so your cardholders will know exactly where you and they stand...

Until the bank makes such a policy public, I think customers can expect the bank's actual policy is more in line with the experience that the OP in this thread encountered...and that's not good.