Bangkok Bank Will Not Payback Fraudulent Pos Transactions W/Stolen Atm Card

[ianguygil]

If any info posted above is incorrect, I'd certainly be happy for someone from BKK Bank to correct and/or clarify it, especially as regards customer liability for charges occurring with lost or stolen BKKB cards.

Re Ian's comment above about the Be1st card and card skimming, note that the OP in this thread had a case of a lost or stolen card... not a skimmed one.

Another gentleman mentioned a card being "cloned" further on the posts. Anyway, I have neither the time or the business expertise to answer some of these points raised, so i will leave them to DAVEROC to answer where we can add value.

[ianguygil]

So I went to my BBL branch today. I was able to apply for Internet Banking, will have to wait and see if I get the snail-mails and emails.

Regarding setting the Be1st Visa Debit/ATM card daily spending limit to ZERO I'm not sure the service rep. really understood what I was asking. She kept referring back to changing my PIN to protect myself, even though that really only applies to ATM activity, I think. Do you use your PIN when making Visa debit purchase? Then when I mentioned using the card a Tesco she said yes, it would work. On the account screen it said "Daily Spending Limit EDC" and then a longish blank space. (I could see by daily ATM limits of 50,000 on the right-hand side of that screen.)

Does anyone know if those letters, EDC, mean that my daily spending limit is actually ZERO? Is there anyway to verify that my daily spending limit is actually ZERO? Would it be somehow illegal, or against the rules, to try and use my card for a purchase, just to see if it is denied? Or would this cause other problems?

EDC is the POS terminal they put your card into at the merchant. I believe it is Electronic Data Capture or something like that. We have I believe tens of thousands of them in our aquiring network. Dave can give more details or you can PM me and I will put you directly in touch with me at the Bank. We can have somebody hold your hand and step you through all these to make sure you are confident in what your settings are...

[KKvampire]

Its shameful if you can prove that the card was stolen and illegally used the Bank will not refund. But there we are I guess they also think people could colloborate to defraud the bank, but even so if a criminal is caught and case proven(unlikely in Thailand ) then a Bank should refund, Why isn;t this enshrined in any law ?

Edited November 22, 2011 by KKvampire

[Pib]

Its shameful if you can prove that the card was stolen and illegally used the Bank will not refund. But there we are I guess they also think people could colloborate to defraud the bank, but even so if a criminal is caught and case proven(unlikely in Thailand ) then a Bank should refund, Why isn;t this enshrined in any law ?

Always remember, This is Thailand (TIT)....We are not in Kansas anymore.

[jeffinbangkok]

Thanks for this post. It is extremely educational.

stolen Be 1st ATM Visa card

None of my business but how did your card get "stolen"?

Hi jackdawson and thank you for your question. Since posting, I have visited Bangkok Bank Headquarters and met with an executive who has promised to look into this matter further. He asked me the same question and I told him that I thought it was stolen as I do remember being conscious of retrieving my card, though that machine has eaten it before. I have a videotape describing difficulties with this machine and its location from the manager of the internet/travel agency where it is located.

I told the Bangkok Bank Executive that I recall being surprised that my wallet was slightly out of my pocket afterwards but all withdrawn funds seemed to be there and I thought the card was still there as well. It is awhile ago but I do remember a homeless man standing dangerously close to me on my left side...the card is returned on the right. It is possible that this was a tactic of a team to get me to look left after replacing my wallet.

I was at Bumrungrad Hospital the next afternoon, and checked my account online because I was expecting a large incoming wire transfer. That is when I saw the six transactions and when my friend showed up to go for a bite to eat. He told me to stay calm and led me to the Bangkok Bank branch in the lobby of the hospital where I reported the loss. They told me they were not responsible and I told them that for ten years with Bangkok Bank I had always thought the Visa logo on the card carried a certain degree of protection. They also told me to make a police report which I then did with the assistance of a police volunteer translator. I faxed all of the documents to them and followed up by telephone from the USA. Will withhold further comments pending the decision of Bangkok Bank promised by Friday.

[KKvampire]

Its shameful if you can prove that the card was stolen and illegally used the Bank will not refund. But there we are I guess they also think people could colloborate to defraud the bank, but even so if a criminal is caught and case proven(unlikely in Thailand ) then a Bank should refund, Why isn;t this enshrined in any law ?

Always remember, This is Thailand (TIT)....We are not in Kansas anymore.

Kansas wheres that , hmm seem to remember it mentioned in a movie about a Wizard, It's not always about comparing Thailand with the US

[Pib]

Its shameful if you can prove that the card was stolen and illegally used the Bank will not refund. But there we are I guess they also think people could colloborate to defraud the bank, but even so if a criminal is caught and case proven(unlikely in Thailand ) then a Bank should refund, Why isn;t this enshrined in any law ?

Always remember, This is Thailand (TIT)....We are not in Kansas anymore.

Kansas wheres that , hmm seem to remember it mentioned in a movie about a Wizard, It's not always about comparing Thailand with the US

But it's a great way to get the point across to most farangs that Thailand does not offer many of the protections taken for granted in the home country of most farangs...even you knew what was being implied/what the analogy meant. TIT

[Fookhaht]

Today I opened a separate non-ATM-card account at my Thai bank in which to keep most of my funds, while I plan to transfer the piddly-stuff into my ATM account as needed.

I feel much better.

Appreciate those willing to share their great advice here.

[Pib]

That's definitely a good way to help minimize the baht loss due to a lost/stolen card. I basically do the same thing by having the bulk of my baht in a non-ATM savings account earning around 3.75% interest and using my no foreign transaction fee US bank issued debit cards to withdraw day-to-day living expenses....also use these US cards to top-up my Thai bank account which has the ATM/debit card access.

[Swiss1960]

I thought VISA underwrite transactions, which is how they can refund fraudulent transactions ?

totster

From what I've been able to tell, the international VISA card network provides basically no meaningful consumer protection provisions in Thailand as relates to VISA logo credit card or debit card fraud.

I've called international VISA in the past and discussed it with them regarding Thailand. Their answer: it's up to the local policy of the card issuing bank.

VISA and MasterCard provide network services, but globally, they provide neither consumer protection nor help to consumers with regards to disputed transactions. They provide global rules about disputes and chargebacks which differ based on the regions (US, Europe etc.) and based on the transaction type (e-commerce, 3D Secure, EMV transactions, PIN transactions etc.)

Within the regions, there are again special rules. As an example, a Chip and PIN transaction within Europe can NEVER be charged back from the issuer to the acquirer / merchant, because it is assumed that the cardholder is liable for any transaction made with his card and his PIN (which he has to keep secret at all times). Within countries, there can be different rules between banks, but within countries, the consumer protection acts from the government do take precedence over the credit card rules (i.e. in the UK, consumer protection is really high).

Finally, the banks have general conditions with regards to their cardholders that can additionally put lot of burden to the cardholder in case of lost / stolen / misused cards. Furthermore, banks have more or less high (or low) sophisticated fraud prevention / detection systems that might stop fraudulent transactions even before the cardholder reports his card as stolen.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The approach mentioned above of keeping baht funds in a non-ATM card account and then shifting them in small amounts to a card account, as needed, seems a reasonable, prudent approach for those who want to keep funds in a Thai bank.

Just remember, as of fall 2012, the government's deposit insurance scheme for Thai bank deposits will drop to 1 million baht per bank per named depositor, regardless of the number of accounts or branch locations involved. So it certainly would be prudent to limit total deposits with any one Thai bank company to that amount per named individual.

Also keep in mind, that Thai government insurance scheme only protects against the failure/bankruptcy of the bank -- and not against any kind of fraud or criminal loss of funds.

The forthcoming 1 million baht insured amount works out to about $33,000 U.S. By comparison, the U.S. government bank deposits insurance plan at present protects depositors up to $250,000 per person per bank. But as noted, it's hard to find 3% accounts in the U.S. these days, except for the longest term CDs.

[jeffinbangkok]

Am praying the Bangkok Bank executive with whom I met is able to speak with others at the bank to adjust their policy to a "case by case" basis. I also could never find the policy on Bangkok Bank's web site regarding ATM's.

True, as he mentioned there is a great deal of fraud in Thailand but, as this post suggests, only one other person responding to this thread had this problem suggesting that there are not that many cases of this "fraudulent signature" POS happening out there. A case by case consideration of the matter, coupled with requiring merchants to be responsible for "signature" matching, would not be an expensive policy for banks in Thailand. Would a merchant accept a forged (i.e., counterfeit) 1,000 baht bill? Then why would they so quickly accept a "forged signature." Why, because, IMO, up to now banks would never accept a counterfeit 1,000 baht bill but they apparently have been accepting forged signatures (i.e., counterfeit).

Per my American Embassy & British Embassy-recommended Thai Attorney , there is nothing in the law to support this policy, which on face value, would, IMO, not pass the "reasonable" test of most systems of law.

Second, an ethical question of how on a business organizations treat their customers regarding "implied contracts" such as the safekeeping of one's funds.

The last question that I have been pondering has to do with "unethical or false advertising"... or false use of an international brand. . If the "Visa" logo is used on Bangkok Bank and most Thai Bank ATM cards then does it not, for The Western part of the world imply that such forged transactions would be reimbursed. The answer for me, for ten years with Bangkok Bank was "yes." I thought I was covered just as if it were a visa from somewhere in The West.

It was mentioned that in the West, a bank's policy is to charge the first $50 (1500 baht) to the customer and then make good on the rest of the fraudulently signed transactions. If the signature was not the customers then he did not have to pay.

Perhaps, in a small way, this thread may help Bangkok Bank, and maybe all Thai banks to bring their liability for stolen cards policy in line with Western and International ethical policies and practices.

Also, having taught Ethics of Business I was under the impression that most large organizations had a person in charge of their Ethic's Policy. This may be the Compliance Officer referred to at Bangkok Bank. This change would have to start a "check signature" carefully procedure throughout Thailand and would lead to less "fraud" which was said to be a big problem in Thailand, often involving whole families. Overall, such a policy's time has come. With Thailand fed up with corruption in government and business, with the ability of the internet to put such matters on "the front page" not only to a newspapers subscribers but to billions of people around the world...the time for honest and ethical policies has come!

For me, it would be easy to say that I just hope that I am refunded the part of my incoming wire transfer funds, but overall, I would hope this never happens to an obviously defrauded customer of a bank in Thailand again!

Finally, thanks for all of your kind comments and for the great ideas on how to bank carefully in Thailand. Am going to adopt many of the good policies shared here and I know the thread has already helped many readers. Thank you all. Together maybe we may make a gradual, positive change, with graciousness, not anger.

[KKvampire]

Ethics in Money Business in Thailand?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Jeff, thanks for your follow-up post... This really is a legitimate, important issue from a consumer standpoint... And I'll be very interested to hear how the bank responds to your case.

Just curious, I couldn't quite tell.... from your meeting with the bank exec, did he/she actually explain to you what the bank's policy is on such matters and/or point you to any document that lays out that policy in writing?

One of the BKK Bank-related members here was supposed to be chiming on some of the specifics that have been raised in this thread. But thus far, we haven't heard from that individual.

[ianguygil]

Jeff, thanks for your follow-up post... This really is a legitimate, important issue from a consumer standpoint... And I'll be very interested to hear how the bank responds to your case.

Just curious, I couldn't quite tell.... from your meeting with the bank exec, did he/she actually explain to you what the bank's policy is on such matters and/or point you to any document that lays out that policy in writing?

One of the BKK Bank-related members here was supposed to be chiming on some of the specifics that have been raised in this thread. But thus far, we haven't heard from that individual.

Dave is currently dealing with the customer in question. As such we will not discuss this specific case at this time. Also, Dave is extremely busy having just returned, so you should cut him some slack until he has time to provide some general answers (not specific to this case).

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks Ian... I wasn't expecting he or anyone else from BKKB would publicly discuss the specifics of any particular private case...

But it certainly would be helpful if someone from the bank would clarify and state the bank's actual policy on handling such matters. That's what's been noticeably lacking thus far.

Edited November 23, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Not surprisingly, the various Thai banks do seem to go out of their way to hide and/or avoid presenting the actual legal terms and conditions documents pertaining to their VISA/MC logo credit and debit cards... at least as far as making those findable/viewable on their web sites...

I had found several before and posted the details here in some other TV threads, but no longer can find those past posts via search. So I did go out looking again at several of the sites where I had found them before, and the visible links to those documents seem to have been taken down.

One of the TH banks I remember finding that policy info for before was HSBC Thailand. Today, I went back to their Thailand website and couldn't find a link to the pertinent document. So I did a Google advanced search for the HSBC TH website and used the term "terms and conditions" and was able to find the pertinent document for HSBC TH VISA and MC logo credit cards.

As I've posted previously, and similar to the policies of other TH banks I've seen previously, the HSBC legal document basically says the card holder is responsible for any charges incurred until 5 minutes after the cardholder has reported the card's loss/theft, etc to the bank -- even if the cardholder had no knowledge or involvement in the theft/loss or did anything wrong.

Here's the actual language from the HSBC TH web site:

In case where the Card is lose, stolen or used by other persons without the Cardholder's authorization, the Cardholder shall immediately report such incident to the Bank's Customer Service Centre so as to suspend the use of the Card and to cancel the personal identification number. Nevertheless, any sum arising from such unauthorized use prior to the report being made by the Cardholder and within 5 minutes after the report has been made shall be at the Cardholder's full liability. In any case, if investigation by the Bank indicates that such liability occurred by the Cardholder's own act or with the Cardholder's awareness, the Cardholder shall be liable in full as aforementioned.

And here's the link to the full document:

http://www.hsbc.co.t...msAndConditions

Based on the basically identical Thai bank policies on this that I've read on the past, and based on how uniformly Thai banks typically handle such matters, I think it's pretty safe to assume basically all the Thai banks are going to have this kind of policy as their approach on such matters.

Consumer Beware!!! These are likely NOT the same kind of rules that typically would apply in people's home countries.

Edited November 23, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[4evermaat]

2 Thai Bank Accounts.

1 for small money, this has an ATM in my wallet.

1 for slightly bigger money, this has an ATM locked in my safe. Used to transfer money into the smaller personal account.

Neither are set up for internet banking.

All transactions are cash.

Proper money is kept well away from Thailand.

This country/region is a joke with regards to security, and just as bad with responsibility of such.

Here's the typical credit/debit card signature verification process in Thailand. You hand the checkout clerk your card, they run it through the POS machine, and then either lay the card down or hand it back to you while the POS machine prints out the receipt for signature and your receipt. If the clerk didn't immediately hand you the card back right after swiping it, they will now have the card and your receipt in their hand as they watch you sign the receipt for signature. As you hand them back the signed receipt they hand you your card and receipt. Now if on some occasions you may notice they appear to glance down at your card as you were signing, well, they are probably not comparing signatures but only glancing at their fingernail polish.

Now, after saying above I will have to admit that "one" time, repeat, "one" time a clerk actually did a signature verification of sorts. It was at the Pinklao Tops Market a few months ago and the wife signed her name in Thai while her signature on the credit card was in English. The clerk caught this and asked her to sign again in English but even then didn't really compare the two signatures in English. Other than this one signature verification of sorts in all the hundreds of credit/debit card purchases the wife and I have done in Thailand, signature verification in Thailand is basically not accomplished. Why should it be accomplished since there is no real consumer protection laws....once the store has the signature on the receipt they are pretty much assured come hell or high water the payment will not be pulled by the bank if it was a stolen card. TIT

Its shameful if you can prove that the card was stolen and illegally used the Bank will not refund. But there we are I guess they also think people could colloborate to defraud the bank, but even so if a criminal is caught and case proven(unlikely in Thailand ) then a Bank should refund, Why isn;t this enshrined in any law ?

It's funny, I've had very identical experience with Pib in regards to the checking of signatures for POS transactions. ONE person has checked and asked me to resign vs hundreds of no-check, sign and go transactions. I started drawing the same conclusions as some people have already pointed out: use 2 accounts, limit POS transaction limit, SMS alerts. I saw the writing on the wall as I noticed the sign and go transactions and concluded that if I were to keep this debit card with me, i would treat the debit card as cash. While i sympathize with the OPs complaint, the stolen money was not a bank error.

The reason why the other countries have such high consumer protection laws is because they are much more credit based societies, and consumers are continuously encouraged to spend their money. They will only do so willingly when they feel the credit option is convenient and safe; otherwise they would be much more conservative with their purchase choices and use cash as needed. Of course, those laws come at a price (higher cost of living), as you must pay those public servants to enact/enforce these laws that the individual should be (IMO) doing for themselves. Another side effect of trying to place the responsibility in 3rd parties in an attempt to offer blanket consumer protection is that collusion fraud increases dramatically, which further raises the cost of goods.

At the core of the issue is convenience. The debit card gives us quick access to our money, and enhances the shopping experience for the merchant and consumer alike, especially with impulse buying, cash rewards, etc. But the other side of the coin, you risk fraudulent activity occurring if the card falls into the wrong hands. There have been multiple practical suggestions of how to reduce or eliminate the fraud potential, outside of cancelling the debit card altogether. Using your debit card as an "atm-only" card i think is the most convenient AND secure option. Of course you may have to walk a little to the nearest atm or pay fee for non-bank atm/outside home province atm instead of being able to charge your purchases. But isn't 10-30 baht "insurance" worth guaranteeing the other 9970-90 baht is available when we need it?

Another strategy: I just found out that it may be possible to link TWO debit cards to a single account. So you could reduce the POS limit on one of the cards to "0" and use it as an ATM-only card. Then have the 2nd card 'locked up in the safe' for larger transactions that require credit purchase, without the need for 2nd account.

Question: can you do pin-based debit POS transactions with the major retailers? They seem to only offer the "credit" only options where it is swipe and sign only.

suggestion: experiment with two-factor security purchase. One more step would be added to the merchant approval process before the transaction is approved: entering in the OTP sent to the shoppers phone. This would probably make the order process more clunky (what if the SMS is delayed, etc), so you'd have to experiment to get the right balance.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There are all kinds of different ways that the card/purchasing process could be made more secure...

But.. Why should the Thai banks make any concerted effort to change things in that arena?

Whenever fraudulent card use occurs, the cardholder generally is stuck with liability for the losses, and the banks basically waive all liability.

The bank isn't out anything. The merchant who didn't even bother to check a card signature or ask for photo ID keeps their funds from the fraudulent transaction.

It's only the cardholder who's the victim of the card loss/theft who's getting reamed.

So explain to me again why a more secure card purchasing system isn't in place here?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, there were some interesting numbers on Thai credit card debit in The Nation earlier this year...

Quoting government data, the article said Thais had 13.69 million credit card accounts with a total outstanding balance of 241.88 billion baht. I believe that works out to an average of about 17,000 baht per account in credit card balance.

Of that amount, bad/non-performing accounts (those overdue more than 3 months) were listed as 1.4 million accounts with a total of 64.1 billion baht of outstanding/bad debt. That means bad credit card accounts account for about 10% of all accounts, but those bad accounts reflect about 26% of total outstanding credit card debt.

That data, of course, only reflects credit card debt, and not the broader underground lending market.

[happysanook]

While i sympathize with the OPs complaint, the stolen money was not a bank error.

I have to agree. without fraud protection, If anything, it's the shop/store who's directly responsible because they didn't properly verify the signatures.

a head and shoulders shot of me makes up the entire background on my debit card... i got it at kasikorn, CMU.

they take a digi shot at the kiosk and out comes your card with your mug on it. not sure it'd help much with the shamelessness of these merchants...but might at least give the thieves pause before stealing it/using it..? one would hope anyways...

[sbk]

Off topic post removed, if you think you have an issue with a member best to contact admin rather than post in the forum. Further such posts will result in something more formal than mere deletion

[ianguygil]

There are all kinds of different ways that the card/purchasing process could be made more secure...

But.. Why should the Thai banks make any concerted effort to change things in that arena?

Whenever fraudulent card use occurs, the cardholder generally is stuck with liability for the losses, and the banks basically waive all liability.

The bank isn't out anything. The merchant who didn't even bother to check a card signature or ask for photo ID keeps their funds from the fraudulent transaction.

It's only the cardholder who's the victim of the card loss/theft who's getting reamed.

So explain to me again why a more secure card purchasing system isn't in place here?

It is pretty obvious that all banks would want to prevent fraud. Trust in the banking system as that is in both our interest and the interest of our customers. Whatever kind of simplistic and cynical slant you want to put on this for your own ends, these are the facts. But why should you let the facts get in your way? Seems you have moved here from the US and think that everything here should work in the same way as back home..... after all, all of us Americans know how perfect things are there..

We will continue to work with the OP and see if we can find out exactly what happened here while you make your ill informed generalizations. Posts from some contributors will need to be ignored while we take care of this..

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Ian, this isn't an issue of personalities. It's a matter of bank policy and recounting the facts...

In Thailand, in the event a card is lost or stolen, the card holder is held responsible for everything until AFTER they've called to notify their bank -- even if they don't learn of or discover the theft for some time, as certainly can occur.

The bank usually won't take any loss, even though it perpetuates an insecure card system. The merchant who probably didn't bother to check card signatures or ask for photo ID keeps their funds from the fraudulent transaction, so they're content to do the same thing again.

Please explain to me how that's fair to a cardholder who very well may have done absolutely nothing wrong, except for to become a victim of a crime in Thailand.

It seems you want to make the issue about personalities, because you're not in a very good position to defend an indefensible policy.

How long do readers here have to wait for someone from BKKB to simply and publicly state the bank's policy on liability for lost and stolen card expenditures? Is it really that difficult a thing to put forward?

Edited November 23, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

Until the government get serious about real consumer protection in the financial area, banks will continue to set their own policies which IMHO will be bank protection oriented versus consumer protection oriented. This would occur in any country, but right now we are talking Thailand.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think that's right, Pib...

But unfortunately, at the broad public level, Thai people only know how it's always been done here, and probably most don't know that other places have better policies and better protection for their consumers. All they know is, that's the way it is done here, and that's the way it's always been in Thailand. They don't know to expect any better.

And, it would seem, the Thai government has relatively little interest in promulgating meaningful consumer protection measures here, since those would be likely opposed by big business interests. And of course, the government often seems to have its focus on other matters it considers more pressing.

From a farang perspective, though, it's particularly insidious. Because as the OP's comments reflect, many farang come here and mistakenly think the Thai bank VISA or MC logo card they end up carrying will operate just like the VISA and MC cards they had back home, wherever that may be. Such as with VISA's "zero liability" fraud pledge and campaign in the U.S.

And as we've seen, while the Thai banks can certainly communicate well when they want to about the subjects they want, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of hiding the reality here of their "you're on the hook for everything until 5 minutes after you've called us" policies...

I wouldn't and won't carry a Thai bank credit card with that kind of liability. But as with the OPs case, a lot of farang don't find out the reality of that until it's too late.

[Pib]

On target!

[Daveroc]

Thanks to everyone who has put put forward their views and concerns around debit card usage in Thailand. There have been some good questions and issues raised as well as a little confusion, which we will take on board at Bangkok Bank and endeavor to provide better explanations through our communications and website.

While I cannot discuss the original posters case specifically because of customer confidentiality, I will take the opportunity to address some of the core issues and questions raised in this thread. (apologies for the length of the post in advance)

Fact. Your transaction will be covered if your card is lost/stolen, unless you are negligent, fraudulent, or found to be colluding to fraud.

Bangkok Bank, indeed all banks operating Visa cards worldwide, assess cases according to Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy. The policy protects cardholders worldwide from unathorised transactions, unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence fraud or collusion. The policy does not apply to ATM transactions which are PIN based.

In practical terms, this means debit card holders should treat their card as securely as cash- as 4evermaat correctly noted. At present there is no PIN based POS option for cards in Thailand, however systems such as this are continually being assessed by the Banks in Thailand.

If someone has been proven to have stolen your card, then in most cases you will not be liable for any transactions. (Assessed case by case)

While different countries have Code of Practices providing consumer protection at different levels, these are based on the conditions and maturity of financial and policing systems available in those countries.

Fact. There are ways to improve your protection as several people have noted.

-keeping lump sum cash in an account separate to your debit card spending account.

-adjusting POS maximum spending amounts to a level you are comfortable with (default is set to 50,000 baht per day.

-setting up free SMS alerts for any time 1,000 bt or more is spent via your Be1st Visa Debit Card (also applies to Credit cards)

-checking for any transaction irregularities via internet banking or passport updates

Obviously it is important to notify your bank as soon as possible if you realise your card is lost or stolen. Depending on circumstances, you could be liable for all transactions up to that point.

Fact. Signatures are still useful in cardholder protection, as long as the process is properly carried out by cashiers.

A good question was raised earlier about the relevance of signatures. The signature essentially operates as one of many layers of cardholder protection (obviously as long as cashiers take the time to check)

Its important to again note that the responsibilty is on the cardholder to ensure their card is kept safe.

If the cardholder's debit card is stolen/lost and there is evidence of neglience , fraud or collusion, then they will be liable to repay funds. Over the years in different countries I have faced claims such as family or friends being given cards and PIN numbers to undertake specific transactions because it was convenient for the cardholder. Unfortunately more than was expected was taken from the account and the cardholder deems it the Banks fault and makes a claim. We also have to deal with claims that have selective memory on the part of the claimant as to where the card was lost and under what circumstances etc. Unfortunately this does not assist the genuine person as we work through these.

Fortunately with the millions of card transactions undertaken daily only a very small percentage become issues.

Trust this clarifies some issues.

Dave

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Dave, thanks for the thoughtful and well-spoken response above... It's good that BKKB has, at least here, attempted to clarify things from a policy perspective. And the policy you recount above, if actually used by the bank, is a fairly reasonable one, IMHO...

But, there are a number of different issues raised by your post. So let me recount some of them and encourage you to further clarify and respond...

--Your opening comment referred only to debit cards... But the lost/theft liability issues for Thai bank/BKKB issued credit cards are just as pertinent. So are BKKB issued VISA logo credit cards covered by the same BKKB policy you discuss above, or if a different one, what theft/loss liability policy applies for those credit cards?

--Since you mention that BKKB's approach to VISA logo debit cards is based on VISA Intl's policy, what about loss/theft liability for Master Card logo cards (debit or credit) that may be issued by BKKB or other Thai banks?

--I was a bit surprised to see you hanging BKKB's policy on the VISA International policy for debit cards... Because, I've called and spoken to VISA Intl in the past directly, and they said in no uncertain terms that their zero fraud liability pledge for VISA logo debit cards is only applicable to U.S. bank issued cards, and they do not enforce or require that in other countries. Can you clarify on that as regards BKKB?

Just to be more clear, yes, the VISA Intl people told me their policy does apply worldwide -- for U.S. bank issued cards. So if you have some reference for VISA Intl saying their debit card liability policy applies to cards issued by banks in other countries, can you provide it?

--Similarly, as you may have seen in one of my posts above, there clearly are some other Thai banks that, at least as far as their VISA and MC credit card products are concerned, are using the "customer liable until 5 minutes after contacting the bank" policy. So that seems to be at odds with your comment about other Thai banks also using the VISA International standard. Unless you intentionally avoided including credit cards in your post comments, because your bank and the others do treat credit cards differently. Can you please clarify?

--I must say, I found myself very surprised to read your recounting of BKKB's policy on debit card theft/loss liability exactly because of the treatment received by the OP in this thread and others in the past who have posted similar experiences with BKKB and other Thai banks as well. If BKKB really has such a policy, I'm wondering why the OP and others seem to get the responses/treatment they get? Where often the local BKKB staff seem to simply dismiss them and say, "you're responsible,' even when they have a timely Thai police report and other appropriate circumstances/evidence. I guess I'm asking, why is it that branch level BKKB staff often seem not to be in tune with the policy you've described above.

--Also, on a bit of a technical point, in your post, you seem at different points to use two very different standards for BKKB determining whether a customer is liable or not. In the first wording, it would seem the burden of proof is kind of on the bank, whereas in the second wording, it seems the burden of proof is on the customer. And that second wording doesn't deal with the "lost" card scenario.

So which version is it? And does that mean if a card is simply "lost," that that bank would consider that customer negligence and hold them responsible?

...Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy. The policy protects cardholders worldwide from unathorised transactions, unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence fraud or collusion.

vs

If someone has been proven to have stolen your card, then in most cases you will not be liable for any transactions. (Assessed case by case)

Not to be overly legal here, but if one were to follow your second wording above, the only way someone could be "proven to have stolen" one's card presumably would be via an arrest by the police and subsequent conviction. Is that the standard you mean to be suggesting?

--Lastly, I guess I should ask, since people like the OP and others seem to often have problems in resolving these kinds of issues with local bank branch staff, what would your recommendation be for a farang BKKB customer be in terms of how to best pursue such an issue, if they find themselves in the unfortunate situation of having charges lodged against a lost/stolen card. Whom to contact first, whom to contact at the next level if the first level is unsatisfactory, what documentation or other supporting material would be needed by the bank.

PS - I forgot to ask, is the policy you've described viewable somewhere by the bank's customers now, either somewhere on the bank's web site or as a printed document available at the head office or branches. If it is viewable, where and how? And if it isn't, shouldn't it be?

Thanks very much. Look forward to your response.

Edited November 25, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just for some proper context regarding my questions above about BKKB staff's performance relative to the bank policy expressed by Dave above, let me quote some pertinent parts of the OP's post above:

Calls from the USA regarding the matter were frustrating. Visits to the General Manager, who although polite and affable, said he did not have the authority to approve the return of my monies. He forwarded documents to headquarters to the Compliance Officer. Before that I was told to go back to the police department which I did on two occasions. It seems that I am being given the "runaround." They say Thai Law negates the Visa Zero Liability policy which states that if the point of sale transaction was not signed by you then you do not have to pay.