Justice Minister Rules Out Thaksin Pardon

[whybother]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

Wasn't it the Justice Ministry that drafted the amnesty?

[hanuman1]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

Wasn't it the Justice Ministry that drafted the amnesty?

If it was, then they just killed their own baby. (Please don't take that literally all you crazy anti-gov-fanatic guys!)

No less weird than if it wasn't their initial draft.

Looks like the truth will only ever be a matter of supposition. Again.

If only Wikileaks could be a monthly publication

Edited November 21, 2011 by hanuman1

[Buchholz]

Fourth paragraph: Thaksin signalled an end of the conflict soon. "When the light of dharmma appears, everything will end."

"When the light of dharmma appears, everything will end." What is the light of dharmma?

The light of dharmma is New Thailand, which will replace the old structure.

The unstudied and non-detailed New Thailand is priced at up to 900 Billion Baht

OR... for only 350 Canadian dollars, we can have the "end of the conflict" by means of the "Light of Dharmma" by April 2012.

http://lightofthedhamma.org/web/

.

[thaivisitorTeeVee]

hear ye! hear ye!

Light of dharmma is near.....New Thailand is upon us.....please be patient for the return of the saviour of Thailand!

The letter is well organised, consisting of 5 paragraphs. Mr T is not a well organised guy, who could write a structured letter.

First paragraph: He mentioned about crisis, a need for prong dong (reconciliation) and his willingness for self sacrifice.

Clinton and Obama have also supported Thai prong dong -- not coincidental.

Second paragraph: He withdrew himself from any benefits of the amnesty, currently crafted by the Govt.

Third paragraph: He referred to a need to prevent any complications from hurting the feeling of HM the King.

Fourth paragraph: Thaksin signalled an end of the conflict soon. "When the light of dharmma appears, everything will end."

fifth paragraph: He called for Thais to learn to "forgive and forget" (he used English terms here) so that the country returns to peace.

It sounded like a manifesto for the whole country to follow -- with him designing the game from the outside.

Thaksin's backing off from the amnesty is only a strategic retreat.

The retreat was aimed at cooling the opposition and the public outcry from the other side of the political spectrum.

This would help the govt's stability somewhat in immediate term, though govt's credibility has been badly damaged by flood mismanagement.

But he made it clear that he would come back since Thais had to learn to "forgive and forget."

"When the light of dharmma appears, everything will end." What is the light of dharmma?

The light of dharmma is New Thailand, which will replace the old structure.

/via @ThanongK

[Buchholz]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

I'll add one.

v) they got a small whisper in their ears "try it and the tanks roll"

Enough is enough! More people have died needlessly in these floods than all the Red / Yellow conflicts combined. All while this governments priorities and attention were cleanly elsewhere.

A quite significant point followed by another.

.

[Derifo]

Its simply amazing that a crook on the run from jail time could be considered for a Pardon in the first place . Simply amazing .....

Have you forgotten where you are? TIT

[Buchholz]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

Wasn't it the Justice Ministry that drafted the amnesty?

Yes, they drafted it and set the criteria both.

Justice Minister Pracha Promnok and a number of Cabinet members reportedly said they would await the royal discretion on whether to grant a pardon to Thaksin rather than force the royal decision on the issue. In the draft proposed by Pracha, those eligible for pardon would include convicts aged more than 60 with less than three-year jail term and no prior offence.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=512872&view=findpost&p=4852149

and

Mr Chalerm noted that the government has no authority to seek a royal amnesty, but it is the duty of the Justice Ministry to set up a 20-member panel to study the appropriate criteria for those eligible to apply for royal pardon.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=512792&view=findpost&p=4851443

.

[hellodolly]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

Are you wearing red glasses?

They are his normal glasses.

The letter would never have been written if there had not been such a violent reaction to the blatant attempt at Pardoning him.

The letter was a way of admitting that he had lost another round and was the best way he could spin it to make him look good to his supporters eyes. As we c an see it worked for some of them.

Funny thing about his supporters they are for the most part uneducated. He threw them a bone once and they thought he had thrown them the hole cow. Here we are 5 years later and they are still hungry but still think he is there liberator because he threw them a bone.

I wonder if the family's of the 2,500 he had executed think he should come back a free man?

[noahvail]

Is it completely out of the realm of possibility that the politician who said that Thaksin would not receive a pardon this time around, could be lying? It gets opposition demonstrations to cease immediately. And then, after 5 December, what's done is done, and Khun T returns?

And then Khun T could be there to advise the government directly (without the need for Skype) on how to handle the aftermath.

Nah, just fantasy on my part, eh...

[webfact]

Thai government backs off Thaksin pardon plan

BANGKOK, November 21, 2011 (AFP) - Thailand's government has ruled out a royal pardon for fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, according to the justice minister, after strong criticism from opponents to a reported draft decree.

Thaksin lives abroad to escape a jail term for corruption, but a cabinet meeting last week reportedly endorsed a royal pardon that could allow him to return without serving time, prompting an angry response from his rivals.

"(Thaksin) will not receive any benefit," from this year's royal pardon, Justice Minister Pracha Promnok told reporters late Sunday.

Royal pardons, which usually exclude convicts found guilty of drug offences and corruption and those who have not spent time in prison, are granted each year on King Bhumibol Adulyadej's birthday on December 5.

Local media reported last week that this year's decree -- which needs to be approved by the king -- would be expanded to apply to "convicts who are at least 60 years old and are sentenced to under three years in jail".

Thaksin, who was ousted by the army in a 2006 coup, is 62 and lives in self-imposed exile in Dubai to avoid a two-year sentence for graft.

His potential pardon had threatened to inflame existing tensions in Thailand, with rallies both for and against the decree held in recent days.

The anti-Thaksin "Yellow Shirt" movement cancelled a planned demonstration in the capital Monday "after the justice minister said the royal pardon will stick with the (standard) conditions," spokesman Parnthep Pourpongpan told AFP.

Reports of the pardon came at a delicate time for Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, who is Thaksin's younger sister and widely considered his political proxy, as she faces criticism for her handling of devastating floods.

Thaksin himself played down suggestions that he would get special treatment from his government allies in a letter to his fellow Thais sent on Sunday.

"I trust in the principle that the government will not do anything that will benefit me or any individual specifically," he wrote.

Thaksin said any action now taken should be "to bring national reconciliation to our country and to overcome the crisis" of Thailand's floods, which have killed more than 600 people.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-11-21

[sparebox2]

This is exactly the reason why Thaksin proxy must not rule Thailand.

Thaksin is super super corrupted.

[lannarebirth]

This is exactly the reason why Thaksin proxy must not rule Thailand.

Thaksin is super super corrupted.

That's true, but the main reason he isn't back here yet is because he's super, super authoritarian and autocratic. He maintains absolutely zero democratic principles save for "majority rules" which he uses to dismantle the remaining pillars of a democracy. You're correct too though. He's super super corrupt as well.

[Crushdepth]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

It's a sappy and pathetic face saver. More than likely he was told to jam it. Do you have to apologise for everything he does?

Edited November 21, 2011 by Crushdepth

[Insight]

The handling of the flood along with the timing of these pardon shenanigans have provided the enemies of Phua Thai & Thaksin with plenty of ammunition. This is on top of the disappointment with various unions about the delays in the minimum wage policy.

I really can't see this letter helping them at all. As others have pointed out, it might appease their current fan base, but will hardly win over others.

[yoshiwara]

If there is one crime Thaksin is guilty of again and again it is bad bad timing.

He always trips over his own shoes.

And then he desperately rows backwards...

...But only using one oar.

[elcent]

Fourth paragraph: Thaksin signalled an end of the conflict soon. "When the light of dharmma appears, everything will end."

"When the light of dharmma appears, everything will end." What is the light of dharmma?

The light of dharmma is New Thailand, which will replace the old structure.

The unstudied and non-detailed New Thailand is priced at up to 900 Billion Baht

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4810326

OR... for only 350 Canadian dollars, we can have the "end of the conflict" by means of the "Light of Dharmma" by April 2012.

http://lightofthedhamma.org/web/

.

there's an enlightenment, lol

from the website mentioned above ...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Didn't I see this lakorn on Channel 3 a few months back with Pancake playing the role of the PM??? I'm sure I did...

[maidu]

There are still intentions by Yingluck, Chalerm, PT party and the Reds to get Thaksin back.

They may have had a slight set-back by this amnesty thing (though it's not an open and shut case yet), but they're got other tricks up their sleeves.

Here's the fall-back scenario. Mr. T simply gets on a jet and arrives in Bangkok, or (better yet) Chiang Mai airport (from Singapore perhaps?).

Who's going to arrest him? No one. At most, he might be detained for a bit, but as a large supportive crowd gathers, it will quickly devolve in to yet another publicity event. T never let the law get in his way before, so why would the law get in his way if he simply showed up in Thailand - unannounced to the public? Neither the cops nor the army nor the judiciary is going to arrest him - particularly while his sister is in the PM's chair. It's a win win scenario for him, and will probably lead to him being PM again - awhile later. Mark my words, that is what I predict will happen. Incidentally, 5 days before the coup, I predicted the coup in a poem-like letter published in the Bkk Post. You can look it up. Some of the details were a bit off, but it happened within days after I mentioned it would happen within days.

[Colin Yai]

There are still intentions by Yingluck, Chalerm, PT party and the Reds to get Thaksin back.

They may have had a slight set-back by this amnesty thing (though it's not an open and shut case yet), but they're got other tricks up their sleeves.

Here's the fall-back scenario. Mr. T simply gets on a jet and arrives in Bangkok, or (better yet) Chiang Mai airport (from Singapore perhaps?).

Who's going to arrest him? No one. At most, he might be detained for a bit, but as a large supportive crowd gathers, it will quickly devolve in to yet another publicity event. T never let the law get in his way before, so why would the law get in his way if he simply showed up in Thailand - unannounced to the public? Neither the cops nor the army nor the judiciary is going to arrest him - particularly while his sister is in the PM's chair. It's a win win scenario for him, and will probably lead to him being PM again - awhile later. Mark my words, that is what I predict will happen. Incidentally, 5 days before the coup, I predicted the coup in a poem-like letter published in the Bkk Post. You can look it up. Some of the details were a bit off, but it happened within days after I mentioned it would happen within days.

Yeah you make a very good point which to be candid I or others on this forum will find quite plausible ,of course civil war will ensue within days of this happening with loss of life on both sides ,but as Thaksin has proved in the past he cares nothing for justice or the sanctity of life, megalomaniacs seldom do, now do they!

[elcent]

There are still intentions by Yingluck, Chalerm, PT party and the Reds to get Thaksin back.

They may have had a slight set-back by this amnesty thing (though it's not an open and shut case yet), but they're got other tricks up their sleeves.

Here's the fall-back scenario. Mr. T simply gets on a jet and arrives in Bangkok, or (better yet) Chiang Mai airport (from Singapore perhaps?).

Who's going to arrest him? No one. At most, he might be detained for a bit, but as a large supportive crowd gathers, it will quickly devolve in to yet another publicity event. T never let the law get in his way before, so why would the law get in his way if he simply showed up in Thailand - unannounced to the public? Neither the cops nor the army nor the judiciary is going to arrest him - particularly while his sister is in the PM's chair. It's a win win scenario for him, and will probably lead to him being PM again - awhile later. Mark my words, that is what I predict will happen. Incidentally, 5 days before the coup, I predicted the coup in a poem-like letter published in the Bkk Post. You can look it up. Some of the details were a bit off, but it happened within days after I mentioned it would happen within days.

Yeah you make a very good point which to be candid I or others on this forum will find quite plausible ,of course civil war will ensue within days of this happening with loss of life on both sides ,but as Thaksin has proved in the past he cares nothing for justice or the sanctity of life, megalomaniacs seldom do, now do they!

the welcome ceremony was set by Jutaporn in NE where he set up a kind of militant red village. Remember what he said? There will be most likely big troubles after December 5 and people then will understand why. This was about two weeks ago.

[alstaxi]

There are still intentions by Yingluck, Chalerm, PT party and the Reds to get Thaksin back.

They may have had a slight set-back by this amnesty thing (though it's not an open and shut case yet), but they're got other tricks up their sleeves.

Here's the fall-back scenario. Mr. T simply gets on a jet and arrives in Bangkok, or (better yet) Chiang Mai airport (from Singapore perhaps?).

Who's going to arrest him? No one. At most, he might be detained for a bit, but as a large supportive crowd gathers, it will quickly devolve in to yet another publicity event. T never let the law get in his way before, so why would the law get in his way if he simply showed up in Thailand - unannounced to the public? Neither the cops nor the army nor the judiciary is going to arrest him - particularly while his sister is in the PM's chair. It's a win win scenario for him, and will probably lead to him being PM again - awhile later. Mark my words, that is what I predict will happen. Incidentally, 5 days before the coup, I predicted the coup in a poem-like letter published in the Bkk Post. You can look it up. Some of the details were a bit off, but it happened within days after I mentioned it would happen within days.

Maybe you missed the interview seh daeng had in BKK during the red shirt terrorist riots, it ended rather abruptly.

Edited November 21, 2011 by metisdead
Repaired the reply, when replying to a quoted post, do not post your comments inside the [quote] tags.

[janverbeem]

"Thaksin will not receive any benefit from the decree, and his name will not be included on the list of convicts eligible for a royal pardon," Pracha said.

That is very brave from Mr Pracha and I would be inclined to believe him..............Only thing is that Mr Pracha will probably be history by the end of this week.

[cloudhopper]

"Thaksin will not receive any benefit from the decree, and his name will not be included on the list of convicts eligible for a royal pardon," Pracha said.

That is very brave from Mr Pracha and I would be inclined to believe him..............Only thing is that Mr Pracha will probably be history by the end of this week.

And so what will they be saying about him by the end of this week janverbeam?

[janverbeem]

"Thaksin will not receive any benefit from the decree, and his name will not be included on the list of convicts eligible for a royal pardon," Pracha said.

That is very brave from Mr Pracha and I would be inclined to believe him..............Only thing is that Mr Pracha will probably be history by the end of this week.

And so what will they be saying about him by the end of this week janverbeam?

The censure debate against Justice Minister Pracha Promnok this coming Sunday is likely to be used by the opposition to launch attacks against Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra and her brother Thaksin, a senior coalition figure said Monday

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/513855-pm-yingluck-likely-to-be-attacked-during-censure-debate/

Edited November 21, 2011 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[cloudhopper]

The censure debate against Justice Minister Pracha Promnok this coming Sunday is likely to be used by the opposition to launch attacks against Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra and her brother Thaksin, a senior coalition figure said Monday

http://www.thaivisa....censure-debate/

So how will that make him "history"?

[virtualtraveller]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

The ill informed rural masses still think he's a saint, couldn't care less about upholding the law on corruption, just want him back so the moolah can flow, they'll read total magnanimity from this letter. The Bangkok middle class who pay all the taxes see right through it all and know he was pushing his luck, making this letter of humility all the more ridiculous and pitiful. The point of this exercise is that you can't pull a fast one on this country, no matter how many supporters you have, the law is the law, use it to your advantage (if you are genuinely innocent) or lose it. Come on Thaksin Man Up!

Let's face it, you lost this round Thaksin, your govt looks more dishonest than ever, but that isn't going to lose the next election for you is it now.

[Publicus]

Its simply amazing that a crook on the run from jail time could be considered for a Pardon in the first place . Simply amazing .....

I completely agree with you that no fugitive on the run should ever be considered for a pardon. I also belive any pardon for Thaksin would likley be the absolute worst things that could happen to Thailand, as it would likely lead to so much civil unrest from both supporters and those against.

That being said... it would not be the first time that a government abused this power

http://en.wikipedia....don_controversy

While most presidents grant pardons on several days throughout their terms, Clinton chose to make most of them on January 20, 2001. Collectively, the controversy surrounding these actions has sometimes been called Pardongate in the press

Marc Rich, a fugitive who had fled the U.S. during his prosecution, was residing in Switzerland. Rich owed $48 million in taxes and was charged with 51 counts of tax fraud, was pardoned of tax evasion. He was required to pay a 100 million dollar fine and waive any use of the pardon as a defense against any future civil charges that were filed against him in the same case. Critics complained that Denise Rich, his former wife, had made substantial donations to both the Clinton library and to Mrs. Clinton's senate campaign. According to Paul Volcker's independent investigation of Iraqi Oil-for-Food kickback schemes, Marc Rich was a middleman for several suspect Iraqi oil deals involving over 4 million barrels (640,000 m³) of oil.^[21] Longtime Clinton supporters and Democratic leaders such as former President Jimmy Carter, James Carville and Terry McAuliffe, were all critical of the Clinton pardon. Carter said the pardons were "disgraceful."^[22]

Maybe this is why Clinton helped Yingluck sidestep some of the questions during the joint press conference.... as she may simpathize with a leader abusing their power to push through unjust pardons???

Clinton knew before arriving in Thailand that the pardon effort was dead. The United States is committed to this elected government, period. That means without Thaksin.

[Puccini]

From the news article in the OP:

Justice Minister Pracha Promnok insisted yesterday that former prime minister Thaksin Shina-watra would not benefit from the draft Royal Decree seeking pardons for inmates on the occasion of His Majesty the King's birthday.

"Thaksin will not receive any benefit from the decree, and his name will not be included on the list of convicts eligible for a royal pardon," Pracha said.

...

Even if Thaksin's name will not be included in the list he will still benefit if the decree says that all convicted persons aged 60 or older, without naming them individually, are pardoned.

As regards the mention that a convicted person must first have served a part of his sentence, this seems to contradict Section 265 of the Criminal Procedure Code, which implicitly allows for the possibility of a pardon being received when no part of the sentence had been enforced yet:

A sentence which is pardoned absolutely and unconditionally may not be enforced. Had any part thereof been enforced, the remainder shall without delay come to an end. Had any fine been paid, whatever paid shall be returned in toto.

[hanuman1]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

The ill informed rural masses still think he's a saint, couldn't care less about upholding the law on corruption, just want him back so the moolah can flow, they'll read total magnanimity from this letter. The Bangkok middle class who pay all the taxes see right through it all and know he was pushing his luck, making this letter of humility all the more ridiculous and pitiful. The point of this exercise is that you can't pull a fast one on this country, no matter how many supporters you have, the law is the law, use it to your advantage (if you are genuinely innocent) or lose it. Come on Thaksin Man Up!

Let's face it, you lost this round Thaksin, your govt looks more dishonest than ever, but that isn't going to lose the next election for you is it now.

Again with the 'rural masses are told how to think' shtick.

I don't think they think Thaksin's a saint. They think he's a politician, which means they think he's a corrupt politician. Just like all the others before him. Except that this corrupt politician, they feel, actually gave them something back after they voted him in. If any other political leader/party could be disciplined and organized enough to pull off the same feat, maybe Thaksin's popularity could finally start getting eroded. Which up till now hasn't happened.

Thaksin's more dictatorial tendencies, which only became more manifest during the last couple of years of his premiership, could have resulted in the public kicking him out through elections or otherwise. It is the tragedy of the coup which extended his longevity and turned him into what so many see as a martyr of democracy instead of an overthrown dictator, which is what he could have eventually become.

All those who say the coup was some kind of pre-emptive strike to avoid decades of Burmese/Zimbabwe/Nazi-style rule make far too large an assumption. They cannot possibly prove their proposition.

It is understandable that those who see their job as the guardians of the Thai people would want to protect them from such a fate, but it is a characteristic of maturing nations that the people are given more power. Like a parent giving their growing child freer reign over their own life, so the guardians of the Thai people will have to let them be the sole arbitrators of their fate. Failure to do this can only lead to dysfunction. Either you respect your own people or you don't.

Edited November 21, 2011 by hanuman1

[metisdead]

A profanity post has been removed.