11 Vs 18

[NguuMuu]

As my Thai progresses I still have a serious pronounciation problem that I can't seem to fix. The most common example is when I say 11 vs 18. The confusion is in the ones digit, et vs bpaet. Now I know those two words are not very similar, but anytime I want to say 'sip et' I can't just cut the 'p' and it kind of melds into the 'et' making it sound more like 'bpaet'. So I'm trying to say 11 but it gets interpreted as 18. I even have trouble when I put a pause in between the syllables: sip.....et (in my brain) still comes out as sip.p.p....p.p.bpaet (in my mouth).

I'm not sure what the linguistic term is for this sudden cut off, but if anyone can give me tips on how to make my mouth do it I would be very grateful. My soi ends with a 1 so I frequently confuse taxi drivers with thinking they're taking me to a different soi.

I hope this post isn't too confusing and someone understands it.

[ProfessorFart]

Say it slowly and clearly with a long pause between the two!

Maybe use sign language as well!!?

Bizzare post but I see how it could be a problem!

[skylar]

It's more to do with your accent, I think.

[meadish_sweetball]

As my Thai progresses I still have a serious pronounciation problem that I can't seem to fix.  The most common example is when I say 11 vs 18.  The confusion is in the ones digit, et vs bpaet.  Now I know those two words are not very similar, but anytime I want to say 'sip et' I can't just cut the 'p' and it kind of melds into the 'et' making it sound more like 'bpaet'.  So I'm trying to say 11 but it gets interpreted as 18.  I even have trouble when I put a pause in between the syllables: sip.....et (in my brain) still comes out as sip.p.p....p.p.bpaet (in my mouth). 

I'm not sure what the linguistic term is for this sudden cut off, but if anyone can give me tips on how to make my mouth do it I would be very grateful.  My soi ends with a 1 so I frequently confuse taxi drivers with thinking they're taking me to a different soi.

I hope this post isn't too confusing and someone understands it.

I have had the exact same problem - I wanted to go to soi 11 and the taxi driver took me to soi 18. In my case I think it was due to two things, the first being that my 'e' in 'et' was not sharp = (pointed) enough, and came out as an 'ae' sound instead. This is probably due to my dialect in Swedish, where short 'e' and 'ä' (the Swedish version of แ) sound identical.

I had to work on sharpening my short 'e' in Thai in the direction towards 'i'. It is important to to not go too far, though - you don't want it to become 'sip-it' instead of sip-et!

Try to say 'ae' แอะ 'e' เอะ and, 'i' อิ in a row (preferably to a native Thai) and make sure there is a clear distinction between them that the listener can hear as well.

The second problem in my case was probably in the link between the two words, just like you said.

The first sound in 'et', which you call the 'sudden cut-off' is known as a glottal stop, the symbol of which is อ in Thai. This glottal stop is similar to the sound cockneys make in the middle of the word 'letter' - 'le'er' , and is not pronounced in your mouth, but in your throat, by closing your glottis completely and then opening it.

It involves starting the word with your glottis closed and then opening it fully to let the word explode. In linkage, the glottal stop is not as apparent as it is in isolation - but to make sure you speak more clearly, it is a good idea to have a marked glottal stop in between 'sip' and 'et', because this will signal clearly that you dont mean 'sip-bpaet', that has no glottal stop.

Hope that helps.

[buadhai]

Excellent analysis and explanation. Perhaps now I can go back to staying at the Rembrandt (Soi 18) instead of having to stay at the Ambassador (Soi 11)....

[Jeff1]

Excellent analysis and explanation. Perhaps now I can go back to staying at the Rembrandt (Soi 18) instead of having to stay at the Ambassador (Soi 11)....

It is a long walk

[Jimmy2004]

Hehe, I've heard this a hundred time.

Ok, 11 is seep- et (say it quickly)

18 - is bpeat (slowly)

There's a language called 'pasaa tahaan' which means military language or literally 'language soldier' so if you want to say 11 say sip-nueng

[Neeranam]

Excellent analysis and explanation. Perhaps now I can go back to staying at the Rembrandt (Soi 18) instead of having to stay at the Ambassador (Soi 11)....

555

I've had a similar problem with soi 41 and 48.

I had to get a Thai person who was willing to sit down with me and practise for 10 minutes. Also with other vowel sounds, due to my scottish accent.

I was amazed when a few people told me that the เอ sound it comes out as แอ

The problem came by reading books where the phonetics were for Southern English speakers.

It is very important to get the right sounds when you start rather than what I did, learning lots of vocabulary but unable to pronounce it properly.

Some Americans say when I say bed it sounds like bad and when I say bad it sounds like bud.

[bina]

relax its not just us;

i've seen irritated thais screaming in the phone: sip et sip et , mai chai sip baet!!.. si neung, chai, sip et.....

[Johpa]

The first sound in 'et', which you call the 'sudden cut-off' is known as a glottal stop, the symbol of which is อ in Thai. This glottal stop is similar to the sound cockneys make in the middle of the word 'letter' - 'le'er' , and is not pronounced in your mouth, but in your throat, by closing your glottis completely and then opening it.

It involves starting the word with your glottis closed and then opening it fully to let the word explode. In linkage, the glottal stop is not as apparent as it is in isolation - but to make sure you speak more clearly, it is a good idea to have a marked glottal stop in between 'sip' and 'et', because this will signal clearly that you dont mean 'sip-bpaet', that has no glottal stop.

Hope that helps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Svenske has it correct. The glottal stop does occur in English in some phrases but does not act as a consonant as it does in Thai. In English we, even us Yanks, insert a glottal stop in the phrase "uh-oh" before ths second vowel. In Thai it always occurs before a syllable initial short vowel such as ?et, where the '?" is a common symbol used for the glottal stop. Mastering the glottal stop is as difficult as mastering the "ng' ngaa nguu consonant at the beginning of a syllable for most of us.

[Pescator]

One is short vowel other is long, both low tone, yes, but I thought that the tone duration alone would rule out mistakes?

Cheers

Michael

[meadish_sweetball]

One is short vowel other is long, both low tone, yes, but I thought that the tone duration alone would rule out mistakes?

Cheers

Michael

Yes, you'd think the vowel length should be enough, but in my case anyway, it was not. Since my native language does distinguish clearly between long and short vowel sounds, that could not have been the problem.

In sloppy everyday Thai, the vowel lengths are rather blurred out - in dialects, some words take short vowels instead of long as they do in Central Thai... there are a number of things that can go wrong. And then there is the omnipresent risk of just being a farang - you are not expected to speak clearly, so in some cases the person you speak to will trust their own assumptions more than what they hear coming out of your mouth. In the case of taxi drivers, you also have to take into account that some of them come more or less straight from the rice field into Bangkok - they may be used to people speaking Isaan dialects, Northern Thai or Southern Thai.

Only five days ago, I went to a temple for merit-making with a friend. After we were finished, we chatted for a while with the monk, who complimented me on my Thai (as Thais often do, even if one only knows three sentences and half of them are incorrect ). He then asked me where I come from, and I say, VERY slowly, with exaggerated tones, to avoid misunderstandings : เป็นคนประเทษสวีเด็น ครับ bpen khon bprathêed s-wiiden khrap... and he smiles and says 'Ohh, Switzerlan(d)!'

[NguuMuu]

Thanks for the tips...I'll have to keep working on this one.

After I was reading some of these posts I was thinking that from my own experience it seems Thais usually register the tone of a word before it's vowel length (i.e. if the tone alone is enough to distinguish the word they will more or less ignore the vowel length).

Perhaps a glottal stop would trump both tone and vowel length, thus being first on the list of what gets registered? So in the case of saying สีบเอ็ด sip-et with no glottal stop it would instantly get registered as สีบแปด sip bpaet because everything else is ignored.

Any thoughts on this?

[steveromagnino]

Michael

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only five days ago, I went to a temple for merit-making with a friend. After we were finished, we chatted for a while with the monk, who complimented me on my Thai (as Thais often do, even if one only knows three sentences and half of them are incorrect ). He then asked me where I come from, and I say, VERY slowly, with exaggerated tones, to avoid misunderstandings : เป็นคนประเทษสวีเด็น ครับ bpen khon bprathêed s-wiiden khrap... and he smiles and says 'Ohh, Switzerlan(d)!'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many names does your country have? Sweden = Switzerland = Holland = The Netherworld.

Can't you blokes just choose one name for your country? Just because you make chocolate and have a lot of dykes...blimey....

I'd say try the opposite approach of speaking more slowly and clearly.

Sip [pause] eit

Sip [pause] bpairt

then explain

pai soi sip eit. mai chai soi sip bpairt na krub khun pee na kaaaaaaaaa.

(then flutter your eye lids seductively) (optional)

One of the things i used to do to sound more like my mates was speak Thai fast and mutter a lot. While sounding more like a THai (to me) my clarity was not nearly as good as when I spoke slowly, and broke words apart.

So now.... for business I stick to slow and careful in both Thai and english. Fast is just to show off.

To my cat.

[Johpa]

I'd say try the opposite approach of speaking more slowly and clearly.

Sip  [pause] eit

Sip  [pause]  bpairt

Does remind me of the person who was adamant that Jimi Hendrix was a gay rights activist because he chose to hear the lyrics:

'scuse me while I kiss this guy,

Purple haze all around......

[steveromagnino]

I'd say try the opposite approach of speaking more slowly and clearly.

Sip  [pause] eit

Sip  [pause]  bpairt

Does remind me of the person who was adamant that Jimi Hendrix was a gay rights activist because he chose to hear the lyrics:

'scuse me while I kiss this guy,

Purple haze all around......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

classic stuff... there is some website full of all the lines people mishear when singing songs...

[Gappui]

I think the problem is not so much long or short pronounication, but the tonation of the words for those who've not mastered the "por pla" (bp) sound. Also, farang speakers of Thai language tends to say Thai words with ending sound, which Thai language doesn't have. So Sib-ed becomes Si-bed or Si-ped, which sounds close to sib-bpad. (and also wrong grammatically)

So my suggestions is to make sure that you treat each word as its own. Meaning that you have to say 2 words, not one. SIB-ED, SIB-BPAD. "Ed" as in "Jed" (7), "Sed" (done). Like the name "Ed" or "jet" or "set" but it has a low tone. When saying Bpad (8), think of "Bad" "Had" etc.

BTW, think of 10 as "SIB" not "SIP" as it should be the way it's written.

[chownah]

Doesn't the et in sipet have a high tone? The bpat in sipbpat should be a low tone....tone is really important. Another example of this is when saying Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai. the 'Mai' in Chiang Mai is a low tone but the 'Rai' in Chiang Rai is a neutral tone. I'm from Chiang Rai and when I first started saying Chiang Rai when Thais asked where I lived they always thought I was saying Chiang Mai and I finally figured out that I was saying the 'Rai' with a low tone and as soon as I stopped doing this people started to understand me immediately.

[Gappui]

Both "Ed" and "Bpad" have the same low tone.

[Johpa]

I think the problem is not so much long or short pronounication, but the tonation of the words for those who've not mastered the "por pla" (bp) sound. Also, farang speakers of Thai language tends to say Thai words with ending sound, which Thai language doesn't have. So Sib-ed becomes Si-bed or Si-ped, which sounds close to sib-bpad. (and also wrong grammatically)

So my suggestions is to make sure that you treat each word as its own. Meaning that you have to say 2 words, not one. SIB-ED, SIB-BPAD. "Ed" as in "Jed" (7), "Sed" (done). Like the name "Ed" or "jet" or "set" but it has a low tone. When saying Bpad (8), think of "Bad" "Had" etc.

BTW, think of 10 as "SIB" not "SIP" as it should be the way it's written.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is true that Thai does not use voiced consonants in syllable final position, but I have never seem Thais have a problem comprehending a Farang ending a syllable with a voiced consonant. It might be phonetically different but usually not phonemically different. It can make a huge difference in syllable initial position though leading to incorrect understanding.

And besides, most Thais in common speech put very little emphasis on the final consonant, often barely audible, and instead place the phonetic stress on the vowel. This is quite different than in English where the phonetic emphasis is placed on the consonants which leads to the variety of accents used in English, not to mentioned the often maligned over use of dipthongs by my Ahmericans.

I will not go into your choice of examples, but you are getting closer when you suggest the person think of two words. And that takes us back to the glottal stop that would serve to distinguish and break up the two words to Thai speakers but, not being a phonemic element in most Indo-European languages, is not really heard by Farangs.

[Johpa]

Doesn't  the et in sipet have a high  tone?  The bpat in sipbpat should be a low tone....tone is really important.  Another example of this is when saying Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai.  the 'Mai' in Chiang Mai is a low tone but the 'Rai' in Chiang Rai is a neutral tone.  I'm from Chiang Rai and when I first started saying Chiang Rai when Thais asked where I lived they always thought I was saying Chiang Mai and I finally figured out that I was saying the 'Rai' with a low tone and as soon as I stopped doing this people started to understand me immediately.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps you need to say Chiang Hai, just as it is pronounced by the locals, to avoid misunderstanding. Besides, those Khon Thai lump the entire north as Chiang Mai.

[meadish_sweetball]

Perhaps you need to say Chiang Hai, just as it is pronounced by the locals, to avoid misunderstanding.

Or even Jiang Haai.

[NguuMuu]

BTW, think of 10 as "SIB" not "SIP" as it should be the way it's written.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe it should be transliterated as SIB, but the way it is pronounced is closer to SIP, and we're talking about pronounciation here. Last time I checked a บ in the final postion is pronounced as a p.

This makes me think of all the writings of Sawasdee (correct transliteration), but then it makes me chuckle to hear it said that way when it should be pronounced Sawatdee based on the pronounciation rules for สวัสดี (final s should be pronounced as t)

BTW, thanks for all the replies so far everyone.

[meadish_sweetball]

How you transliterate Thai is up to you, basically - either way, there is only one spelling in the Thai alphabet.

The sound of บ* in final position is sometimes transcribed with /b/, sometimes with /p/ - depends on which system you use. (The Haas system uses /b/, whereas for example AUA and Smythe use /p/). Similar cases are final position ก ข ค /k/ vs. /g/ and ท ต ฐ ธ /t/ vs. /d/ .

The important thing to remember is that the Thai pronunciation of the consonant in final position is not released, your lips should remain sealed.

In this respect Gappui is right that a b is closer than a 'p', since when most people pronounce 'p' they'll let out a burst of air after having closed their lips. To not release this air is what you should concentrate on when speaking Thai.

* as well as ภ ผ ป etc., even ฟ is by some people pronounced the same, since final position ฟ only occurs in loans.

[buadhai]

The important thing to remember is that the Thai pronunciation of the consonant in final position is not released, your lips should remain sealed.

In this respect Gappui is right that a b is closer than a 'p', since when most people pronounce 'p' they'll let out a burst of air after having closed their lips. To not release this air is what you should concentrate on when speaking Thai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is it voiced or unvoiced?

Edited December 9, 2005 by buadhai

[meadish_sweetball]

Unvoiced if you pronounce it correctly; the thing is, you should never even give the final consonant the chance to carry on to where you would apply the voice - you should 'close your mouth like a greedy oyster' at the end.

[buadhai]

Unvoiced if you pronounce it correctly; the thing is, you should never even give the final consonant the chance to carry on to where you would apply the voice - you should 'close your mouth like a greedy oyster' at the end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lovely description.

I guess that's what's hard for us. If we want a final consonant that's unaspirated, we want to voice it and then it lasts too long. Does English have any unvoiced unaspirated final consonants?

[Johpa]

I guess that's what's hard for us. If we want a final consonant that's unaspirated, we want to voice it and then it lasts too long. Does English have any unvoiced unaspirated final consonants?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Methinks the unvoiced consonants, /k/, /t/, and /p/ are unaspirated in syallable final position.

[Jimmy2004]

Me: I come from Scotland (Pom-ma-jaak-Sa-got-land)

Thai: Ahhh - Holland ou have beautiful flowers

Nuff said.

[buadhai]

Methinks the unvoiced consonants, /k/, /t/, and /p/ are unaspirated in syallable final position.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think that's true in my speech. I can't think of any word where aspirating any final consonant is a distinctive feature.

For example, if you say the word "stop", does it mean something different if you aspirate the final "p" as I do?

Edited December 10, 2005 by buadhai