Rule Of Law Takes A Back Seat In Thaksin Passport Drive

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

Rule of law takes a back seat in Thaksin passport drive

The Nation

Surapong's concern for boss' 'dignity' makes impeachment bid inevitable

Is Noppadol Pattama confusing "dignity" with something else? Defending the Foreign Ministry's renewed plan to return Thaksin Shinawatra his passport, Noppadol said the issue had more to do with dignity than any activity. Thaksin, he insisted, already had freedom to travel overseas with or without help from the Thai authorities. Returning the passport would be largely symbolic, according to the former foreign minister.

If Noppadol is confused, Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul may be even more so. While announcing his new push to get Thaksin back his passport, Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide. Truth is, giving back Thaksin his passport will do anything but.

"Dignity" is something abstract, and even more so when Thaksin is concerned. To his admirers, he remains a hero regardless of whether he holds a Thai passport or not. To his detractors or opponents, even Thaksin being reinstated Thailand's prime minister would never constitute anything close to "dignity". In other words, what's the necessity of Thaksin's passport to begin with?

Many people, Thaksin's supporters in particular, believe his Pheu Thai Party's victory in a general election has returned Thaksin his dignity. Noppadol and Surapong obviously do not think so. To them, Thaksin needs to get back his Thai passport in order to be further redeemed. The passport is an integral part of Thaksin's vindication, or so it seems.

Problem is, Thaksin remains technically and legally a convicted criminal. Surapong, in his capacity as foreign minister, is supposed to do his duty as a state official. That duty requires him to impose constraints on Thaksin's travel - or at least not to facilitate his travel. If Surapong views Thaksin's case as political, at least he should have waited until Thaksin's legal status changes. What the foreign minister is doing is jumping the gun in total disregard for the rule of law just to serve someone he openly describes as his boss.

Surapong will face an impeachment campaign if he makes good on his promise to return Thaksin his passport before the New Year, or even before Christmas. On Friday, he openly stated that impeachment was a risk he was willing to take. The minister could have been encouraged by his earlier success when the Thai government managed to convince Japan to give Thaksin an entry visa. There was a political storm back then, but nothing that a dominant Pheu Thai government could not handle.

This renewed passport push comes hot on the heels of the botched attempt to give Thaksin a Royal Pardon on the occasion of His Majesty the King's birthday. The pardon move triggered a huge public outcry that forced the Yingluck government to back down. Surapong was bold, to say the least, to announce the passport plan just after the government was attacked for not doing its best for the country during the flood crisis, and for focusing instead on divisive issues related to the ruling party's patriarch-in-exile.

The foreign minister said he had made significant "achievements" that could blunt any impeachment campaign. He should not count helping Yingluck Shinawatra go through some international forums as something to boast about. As for Thailand's conflict with Cambodia, the atmosphere for negotiations may have improved, but that's hardly a result of the Foreign Ministry's work. Every time Surapong's name is in the news, it's accompanied by Thaksin's, and the minister's latest plans to refurbish it.

It's not fair for Thailand to have to lurch from one divisive Thaksin issue to another, especially during these difficult times. "15 million votes" have always been cited when a controversial government agenda concerning the man is under attack, but if the likes of Surapong, Noppadol or Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung want to play with numbers, what would they say about the more than 10 million votes that were not cast for Pheu Thai in the last election? If "numbers" have taught us anything, it's the lesson that manipulating them and it may never end.

-- The Nation 2011-12-05

[KKvampire]

PTP ministers really nothing better to do?

I will answer my own question,

No! Their prime directive is helping their boss

[whybother]

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

[nurofiend]

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

out of interest, what is reconciliation for the yellow shirts?

[whybother]

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

out of interest, what is reconciliation for the yellow shirts?

Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases ??

The red shirts were fighting for democracy, the end to double standards, and a number of other things. It isn't supposed to be all about Thaksin.

They don't need Thaksin to get most of the things that they want, so why is it that Thaksin seems to be the "be all and end all" of everything?

[Skywalker69]

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

+1

[nurofiend]

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

out of interest, what is reconciliation for the yellow shirts?

Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases ??

The red shirts were fighting for democracy, the end to double standards, and a number of other things. It isn't supposed to be all about Thaksin.

They don't need Thaksin to get most of the things that they want, so why is it that Thaksin seems to be the "be all and end all" of everything?

so you make the valiant point of saying that it should not all be about thaksin, yet in your first sentence you answered that reconciliation for the yellow shirts is "Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases"

[whybother]

so you make the valiant point of saying that it should not all be about thaksin, yet in your first sentence you answered that reconciliation for the yellow shirts is "Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases"

Supposedly for the red shirts, it isn't all about Thaksin. For the Yellow shirts, obviously it is, but a lot of it in relation to the law.

The red shirts are getting most of the things that they want, and the Yellow shirts (or others) aren't on the streets or threatening to be on the streets protesting against that.

The red shirts are talking about reconciliation. That shouldn't mean getting everything that they want.

The red shirts can have their people in power and get the handouts that they want, but they don't need Thaksin for that.

[nurofiend]

so you make the valiant point of saying that it should not all be about thaksin, yet in your first sentence you answered that reconciliation for the yellow shirts is "Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases"

Supposedly for the red shirts, it isn't all about Thaksin. For the Yellow shirts, obviously it is, but a lot of it in relation to the law.

The red shirts are getting most of the things that they want, and the Yellow shirts (or others) aren't on the streets or threatening to be on the streets protesting against that.

The red shirts are talking about reconciliation. That shouldn't mean getting everything that they want.

The red shirts can have their people in power and get the handouts that they want, but they don't need Thaksin for that.

let me just ask you straight, what are the yellow shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

[whybother]

let me just ask you straight, what are the yellow shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

I have no idea. Go and ask a yellow shirt.

But a lot of people don't want Thaksin to be whitewashed of his crimes and charges. A lot of people are prepared to accept a Thaksin proxy government, and want to get rid of double standards (from all sides).

There won't be reconciliation with Thaksin in the picture. Whether you think that is right or wrong is irrelevant.

[ThaiOats]

Don't you guys see how tiring this is talking about one man? Him and his government keeps opening the can of worms even when there are other important things such as flooding. There's someone more deserving a gift than Thaksin this month but instead we hear about him AGAIN. Is it so much to ask of one very rich man to face his charges so that the issue about him can be history?

[lannarebirth]

so you make the valiant point of saying that it should not all be about thaksin, yet in your first sentence you answered that reconciliation for the yellow shirts is "Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases"

Supposedly for the red shirts, it isn't all about Thaksin. For the Yellow shirts, obviously it is, but a lot of it in relation to the law.

The red shirts are getting most of the things that they want, and the Yellow shirts (or others) aren't on the streets or threatening to be on the streets protesting against that.

The red shirts are talking about reconciliation. That shouldn't mean getting everything that they want.

The red shirts can have their people in power and get the handouts that they want, but they don't need Thaksin for that.

let me just ask you straight, what are the yellow shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

They have more or less disbanded for one thing. I think that serves the purpose of reconciliation, don't you?

[nurofiend]

let me just ask you straight, what are the yellow shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

I have no idea. Go and ask a yellow shirt.

But a lot of people don't want Thaksin to be whitewashed of his crimes and charges. A lot of people are prepared to accept a Thaksin proxy government, and want to get rid of double standards (from all sides).

There won't be reconciliation with Thaksin in the picture. Whether you think that is right or wrong is irrelevant.

oh i just asked because you seem to know about what the red shirts want to do for reconciliation, so i guessed that you knew about what the yellow shirts want to do too.. are you a red shirt then maybe?...... since you have to go and ask a yellow shirt to know, i take it you have to go and ask a red shirt to know too.

but all pettiness aside, yeah there won't be reconciliation with thaksin looming.

[nurofiend]

so you make the valiant point of saying that it should not all be about thaksin, yet in your first sentence you answered that reconciliation for the yellow shirts is "Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases"

Supposedly for the red shirts, it isn't all about Thaksin. For the Yellow shirts, obviously it is, but a lot of it in relation to the law.

The red shirts are getting most of the things that they want, and the Yellow shirts (or others) aren't on the streets or threatening to be on the streets protesting against that.

The red shirts are talking about reconciliation. That shouldn't mean getting everything that they want.

The red shirts can have their people in power and get the handouts that they want, but they don't need Thaksin for that.

let me just ask you straight, what are the yellow shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

They have more or less disbanded for one thing. I think that serves the purpose of reconciliation, don't you?

ha and they did this for reconciliation did they?

[lannarebirth]

Supposedly for the red shirts, it isn't all about Thaksin. For the Yellow shirts, obviously it is, but a lot of it in relation to the law.

The red shirts are getting most of the things that they want, and the Yellow shirts (or others) aren't on the streets or threatening to be on the streets protesting against that.

The red shirts are talking about reconciliation. That shouldn't mean getting everything that they want.

The red shirts can have their people in power and get the handouts that they want, but they don't need Thaksin for that.

let me just ask you straight, what are the yellow shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

They have more or less disbanded for one thing. I think that serves the purpose of reconciliation, don't you?

ha and they did this for reconciliation did they?

They did this in the absence of provocative actions by those they see as their opposition. Also, the criminality of the opposition grew to such a point that the instruments of government could no longer ignore them, so PAD became superfluous. IF they rise again, I would imagine that it might be because they might feel the current government would not only not be willing tocarry out their law enforcemnt duties, but might be even complicit in breaking the laws in furtherance of the interests of one man. I could be wrong but that's my general impression.

It is interesting that no PAD leaders have not come out to embrace the general amnesty that is being proposed, even though they would be large beneficiaries of same.

Edited December 5, 2011 by lannarebirth

[KRS1]

Thaksin appears a hero to the poor because he gave them 30 baht, while he stole 30,000,000,000 baht. (cant remember the figure but it was more)

[exeter]

Without the law there is no law. no justice and thats sounds like trouble to me. If the law is taking a back seat then everythins else will go out of the window. Three options: respect the law and live in a law abiding country, possible civil war or the military step in and instil military law until the country comes to its senses. The PTP are playing into the military's hands with their behaviour on the Thaksin issue, it has to be today! Well then we shall see what we will see.

[nurofiend]

They did this in the absence of provocative actions by those they see as their opposition. Also, the criminality of the opposition grew to such a point that the instruments of government could no longer ignore them, so PAD became superfluous. IF they rise again, I would imagine that it might be because they might feel the current government would not only not be willing tocarry out their law enforcemnt duties, but might be even complicit in breaking the laws in furtherance of the interests of one man. I could be wrong but that's my general impression.

It is interesting that no PAD leaders have come out to embrace the general amnesty that is being proposed, even though they would be large beneficiaries of same.

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

[whybother]

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

What do you expect them to have done? What can they do?

[lannarebirth]

They did this in the absence of provocative actions by those they see as their opposition. Also, the criminality of the opposition grew to such a point that the instruments of government could no longer ignore them, so PAD became superfluous. IF they rise again, I would imagine that it might be because they might feel the current government would not only not be willing tocarry out their law enforcemnt duties, but might be even complicit in breaking the laws in furtherance of the interests of one man. I could be wrong but that's my general impression.

It is interesting that no PAD leaders have not come out to embrace the general amnesty that is being proposed, even though they would be large beneficiaries of same.

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

As far as I know they have no major differences with the Red Shirts beyond the Thaksin issue. When that particular item of the Red Shirt agenda is off the table the PAD seem to be non existant.

[nurofiend]

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

What do you expect them to have done? What can they do?

well that's just it.

there isn't any give from either side.

you can't just put it on one group not wanting to give any as the problem regarding reconciliation.

your complaint was that the red shirts only want their way, show me a group that doesn't have this attitude then.

but to answer your question, a bit of civil discussion between established members would at least be a start.

[scorecard]

PTP ministers really nothing better to do?

I will answer my own question,

No! Their prime directive is helping their boss

Yes, there are a lot of things they should be focused on, but they aren't, not at all.

Examples: Where's some discussion generated by the PTP ministers which would generate big picture overriding policies:

1). Which demand fast and massive changes to education and much better preparation for today's work environment and which make Thailand more attractive than other Asian countries? (It's not like the discussion about the poor quality of education started yesterday.)

2). Which ensure that modern work opportunities are spread across Thailand, even if it means subsidized freight etc.

3). Which overall gain a better spread the wealth.

4). Which mean that a much larger % of the Thai population have a decent quality of life through their own productivity.

5). Which actually fight corruption.

There is no discuss on any of this by ptp ministers, and their red shirt 'lieutenants' appointed as ministerial advisers certainly aren't pushing for such discussions.

The bottom line is even more disturbing: 99% of these people don't have the capability to be insightful or to generate such discussions and even worse, they have no desire / no intent to start such discussions.

[phiphidon]

They did this in the absence of provocative actions by those they see as their opposition. Also, the criminality of the opposition grew to such a point that the instruments of government could no longer ignore them, so PAD became superfluous. IF they rise again, I would imagine that it might be because they might feel the current government would not only not be willing tocarry out their law enforcemnt duties, but might be even complicit in breaking the laws in furtherance of the interests of one man. I could be wrong but that's my general impression.

It is interesting that no PAD leaders have come out to embrace the general amnesty that is being proposed, even though they would be large beneficiaries of same.

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

I would imagine some of the PAD Leaders have a bit more to worry about - like when are they going to pay the 552 Million Baht fine (plus 7.5% interest per year) they incurred for invading the airport. Perhaps Kasit would like to help out seeing as he got away with prosecution. Whats good enough a law for Thaksin is good enough for the PAD. What will happen first, Thaksin goes to jail or the PAD pay the fine?

[scorecard]

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

What do you expect them to have done? What can they do?

well that's just it.

there isn't any give from either side.

you can't just put it on one group not wanting to give any as the problem regarding reconciliation.

your complaint was that the red shirts only want their way, show me a group that doesn't have this attitude then.

but to answer your question, a bit of civil discussion between established members would at least be a start.

So perhaps you can start the ball rolling with some structured discussion and suggestions.

Edited December 5, 2011 by scorecard

[nurofiend]

They did this in the absence of provocative actions by those they see as their opposition. Also, the criminality of the opposition grew to such a point that the instruments of government could no longer ignore them, so PAD became superfluous. IF they rise again, I would imagine that it might be because they might feel the current government would not only not be willing tocarry out their law enforcemnt duties, but might be even complicit in breaking the laws in furtherance of the interests of one man. I could be wrong but that's my general impression.

It is interesting that no PAD leaders have not come out to embrace the general amnesty that is being proposed, even though they would be large beneficiaries of same.

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

As far as I know they have no major differences with the Red Shirts beyond the Thaksin issue. When that particular item of the Red Shirt agenda is off the table the PAD seem to be non existant.

well that's of course the foundation

but i believe it's also on the human level and whether it's the correct case or not, there is a degree of reds looking at yellows as 'snobs and bangkok elite' etc and vice versa as 'simpletons and country bumpkins'... and that kind of opinion of each other goes beyond thaksin.

[scorecard]

They did this in the absence of provocative actions by those they see as their opposition. Also, the criminality of the opposition grew to such a point that the instruments of government could no longer ignore them, so PAD became superfluous. IF they rise again, I would imagine that it might be because they might feel the current government would not only not be willing tocarry out their law enforcemnt duties, but might be even complicit in breaking the laws in furtherance of the interests of one man. I could be wrong but that's my general impression.

It is interesting that no PAD leaders have come out to embrace the general amnesty that is being proposed, even though they would be large beneficiaries of same.

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

I would imagine some of the PAD Leaders have a bit more to worry about - like when are they going to pay the 552 Million Baht fine (plus 7.5% interest per year) they incurred for invading the airport. Perhaps Kasit would like to help out seeing as he got away with prosecution. Whats good enough a law for Thaksin is good enough for the PAD. What will happen first, Thaksin goes to jail or the PAD pay the fine?

Are you suggesting that PAD pays first rather than thaksin does ... first is reconciliaion?

[nurofiend]

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

What do you expect them to have done? What can they do?

well that's just it.

there isn't any give from either side.

you can't just put it on one group not wanting to give any as the problem regarding reconciliation.

your complaint was that the red shirts only want their way, show me a group that doesn't have this attitude then.

but to answer your question, a bit of civil discussion between established members would at least be a start.

So perhaps you can start the ball rolling with some structured discussion and suggestions.

nah

[whybother]

I would imagine some of the PAD Leaders have a bit more to worry about - like when are they going to pay the 552 Million Baht fine (plus 7.5% interest per year) they incurred for invading the airport. Perhaps Kasit would like to help out seeing as he got away with prosecution. Whats good enough a law for Thaksin is good enough for the PAD. What will happen first, Thaksin goes to jail or the PAD pay the fine?

Which happened first? Thaksin being sentenced or the PAD being fined?

Besides that, I doubt either will happen.

[scorecard]

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

out of interest, what is reconciliation for the yellow shirts?

Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases ??

The red shirts were fighting for democracy, the end to double standards, and a number of other things. It isn't supposed to be all about Thaksin.

They don't need Thaksin to get most of the things that they want, so why is it that Thaksin seems to be the "be all and end all" of everything?

True, but the bottom is is that they aren't really genuine about wanting these things, in fact many of the ptp / red shirts don't even fully understand these things.

(But let me hasten to add, yes there are serious inequities in Thai society, very serious, and they do need urgent attention.)

There has never been one presentation, not one debate, not one prepared handout (NONE!) from the ptp / red shirt people to detail why democracy is important / the pillars of democracy / the pillars of a civil society, etc etc. And they would quickly gag the media is they could get away with it.

And there's a serious mis-match anyway.

- Thaksin has said numerous times that democracy is not important for Thailand, my aim is not democracy, etc

- Thaksin destroyed the checks and balances of democracy, seriously intimidated the electoral commission.

- Thaksin's lawyers tried to fairly openly bribe court officials (the donut box).

- Thaksin clearly broke a serious law about abuse of power (no shades of gray - he clearly broke a long standing very important law).

- Thaksin clearly and deliberately set up double standards in terms of ensuring his family avoided tax.

- Thaksin....... the list goes on.

Edited December 5, 2011 by scorecard

[nurofiend]

yeah, you got it.