Exercising Eea Right To Move Back To The Uk

[ludditeman]

Thanks to Mr. Angry and 7by7 for their informative posts.

From the last two posts it appears that going to Ireland with the Thai wife will be relatively easy without Visa charges, and staying also easy, especially if working.

It also appears that if you were to enter Ireland and work for a while, then you could move back to England at a later stage without Visa fees.

Nice to see all the details together at last.

I was fairly sure it would work.

Let me know what kind of jobs Ireland has that are easy/quick to get (for English Speakers) - might join you in Ireland!

I'm thinking

Burger flipper in McD, shelf stacker in supermarket, potato digger, etc.

I'm sure I can stand any job for six months or so.

Edited December 10, 2011 by ludditeman

[AngryParent]

Thanks to Mr. Angry and 7by7 for their informative posts.

From the last two posts it appears that going to Ireland with the Thai wife will be relatively easy without Visa charges, and staying also easy, especially if working.

It also appears that if you were to enter Ireland and work for a while, then you could move back to England at a later stage without Visa fees.

Nice to see all the details together at last.

I was fairly sure it would work.

Let me know what kind of jobs Ireland has that are easy/quick to get (for English Speakers) - might join you in Ireland!

I'm thinking

Burger flipper in McD, shelf stacker in supermarket, potato digger, etc.

I'm sure I can stand any job for six months or so.

All the best!

[bifftastic]

Can I just ask, for clarification purposes, does the non EEA spouse have to be already resident in the EU state that the EEA national is moving from in order for this permit to apply? Or can the non EEA spouse arrive from outside of the EEA with no previous immigration/settlement visa whatsoever?

What I mean is, wouldn't it be seen as trying to circumvent immigration law if the non EEA person moved directly from Thailand (in this example)?

I thought that this permit was for people from outside the EEA who had already gone through the immigration/settlement process in one EEA state and then wanted to move to another EEA state with their EEA national spouse/family.

There is much confusing information and misinformation in this thread, agreed. Most of it from one source!

EEA nationals have the right under EEA freedom of movement treaties to exercise certain 'economic treaty rights' in all other EEA countries. They also have the right to have their non EEA national family members live there with them.

These family members can either accompany the EEA national when he moves to the other state, or join him at a later date.

If the EEA national is living in or moving to the state of which he is a citizen then the EEA freedom of movement regulations do not apply and their non EEA national family members need to obtain the appropriate visa under that state's immigration law. Unless he has dual EEA nationalities, in which case he can use his other nationality to apply under the EEA regulations for his family.

However, if an EEA national has been working in an EEA state other than his own and his non EEA family members have been living there with him and he now wishes to return to his home country then the Surinder Singh judgement means that he can use the EEA regulations rather than his home country's immigration law to obtain entry clearance for them. Note that he must have been working, other economic treaty rights, such as living off independent means, are not covered by this judgement.

Hope that's clear.

N.B.

For clarity I have used the male pronoun throughout the above, but the gender of the EEA national is, of course, irrelevant.

Thanks, that's what I thought. So say for instance I moved from the UK to Germany, my Thai wife left Thailand to come and live there with me (she would have to go through the German immigration/settlement procedures in order to do so), we then decided to move to the UK together, she would not have to go through further UK immigration procedures (other than obtaining the EEA permit).

If however, I was returning from Germany and she was moving directly from being resident in Thailand to live with me in the UK, the EEA permit route would NOT be possible, as it would be seen to be circumventing UK immigration laws.

Correct?

[7by7]

Almost.

In your scenario she would not have to go through German immigration/settlement procedures, she could apply under the EEA regulations. I'm not sure about Germany's procedures for this, but as Germany is a Schengen state I think she would first obtain a Schengen visa from the German embassy in Thailand and then apply for residence once in Germany.

If she was moving directly from Thailand to join you in the UK then yes, the EEA route would not be possible. Not because it would be seen as circumventing the UK immigration rules but because the EEA regulations specifically say that they do not apply when the family member is coming from outside the EEA to the EEA national's home country.

[AngryParent]

Almost.

In your scenario she would not have to go through German immigration/settlement procedures, she could apply under the EEA regulations. I'm not sure about Germany's procedures for this, but as Germany is a Schengen state I think she would first obtain a Schengen visa from the German embassy in Thailand and then apply for residence once in Germany.

If she was moving directly from Thailand to join you in the UK then yes, the EEA route would not be possible. Not because it would be seen as circumventing the UK immigration rules but because the EEA regulations specifically say that they do not apply when the family member is coming from outside the EEA to the EEA national's home country.

In response to your reply.

Now, Schengen is only 90 in 180. So, if bifftastic and family are unable to go back to the UK in 90 days (for whatever reason) will you offer compensation? Bifftastic, in his posts on this thread did not mention seeking employment (needs to be employed) or self-employment (return to the UK is not possible thus). Schengen is not really exercising EEA and a lot more; under EEA from day 1, spouse has full rights to work and do whatever - Schengen does not offer such.

Bifftastic mentioned that he will go to Germany first and Thai wife will join him, that is not exercising EEA treaty 100% (there are pot-holes with this). I could go on....

Think whatever you want of me, the facts speak for themself.

Edited December 10, 2011 by AngryParent

[7by7]

1) As he said ".......say for instance I moved from the UK to Germany....."I got the impression that bifftastic was asking a hypothetical question!

2) I said " I'm not sure about Germany's procedures for this, but as Germany is a Schengen state I think she would first obtain a Schengen visa from the German embassy in Thailand and then apply for residence once in Germany." You may not understand what "I'm not sure" and "I think" mean; but I'm sure that bifftastic and other readers do.

3) If my thoughts on the German procedure are correct, then she would apply for residence once in Germany. EEA regulations mean this must be issued, assuming she qualifies, without delay. So any time limit and other restrictions on her Schengen visa would be irrelevant.

4) What 180 days has got to do with it, only you know. There is no minimum time one must spend in another EEA state before using the Surinder Singh judgement to return home with your non EEA family.

5) Bifftastic was seeking clarification of my earlier post, which he quoted, where I had explained that he must be exercising an economic treaty right in Germany for his wife to join him there under the EEA regulations. Furthermore I explained that for him to utilise the Surinder Singh judgement to return to the UK with his wife he must have been working in another EEA state and his wife have been living there with him. You should read all of the posts you wish to criticise; you'll look less foolish that way.

6) You are right, though, when you say "the facts speak for themself (sic)." Do they have facts under your bridge?

[Arkady]

Who knows how long Britain will remain in the EU?

[Foggy Bottom]

Just some thoughts on this:

Further up in the thread there were references to EU directive(s) and the implementation of those in the UK legislation.

I am not sure but I would think that the directive(s) in question is a EC (and not EU) directive.

I'd guess that it would be one of the rather old directives in the package establishing the inner market or common market if you like.

I.e. free flow of goods, services, capital and people between the member states.

(Could be looked up in the celex database, see upper right hand corner on the first page.)

Anyway, EC or EU is not important.

Consider the purpose of this directive, ie the legislator's intention with this instrument.

My understanding is that the main purpose is to ensure that all non-UK EEA citizens get equal and fair rights

re entering and residing in the UK and enjoying her "facilities". And likewise for UK citizens when going to

non-UK member states.

The purpose is not to make life simpler for UK citizens in the UK.

In particular it is not the purpose of this directive to make it simpler, or even possible, for a UK citizen to bring

non-EEA family into the UK. Even if the UK citizen has such in another EEA country.

If the UK chooses to "make life difficult" for UK citizens re bringing non-EEA family into the UK it would (probably) not be obvious

that that would constitute a breach of the stipulations (or spirit) in the directive.

It sounds a bit far fetched to me for a UK citizen to call upon provisions in EEA regulations (which in this case would be primarily aimed

at ensuring rights for non-UK EEA citizens) in order to make it easier and/or cheaper to bring non-EEA family to the UK.

just my tuppence . . . . . . . .

Within the UK CTA (Common Travel Area - includes all the islands and stuff) a Native British Citizen is NOT an EU / ECC citizen - I have already been down that route when fighting the UK Benefits Agency regarding the Habitual Residency Test after I first returned to the UK.

If the OP topic was attempted by a Brit bringing their non-EU family in via an EU country, the UK authorities would simply state that Britons within UK are not EU Nationals, they are British Nationals and covered by a different set of rules.

Don't confuse case law such as the Overseas British National Surinder Singh ruling, with case law applying to natural British Nationals born in the UK.

They've got this loop hole covered - as someone implied above ... using stealth application of other laws.

[7by7]

^^^^^^^ Sorry, no.

See EUN2.14 Can family members of British citizens qualify for an EEA family permit? ('Surinder Singh' cases)

Example: A British national is exercising an economic Treaty right in Germany and living with his non-EEA national spouse and children. On the British national's return to the UK, his non-EEA national family members can apply for an EEA family permit to join him under EC law.

The Surinder Singh judgement is incorporated into the EEA Regulations in Regulation 9. Family members of British nationals who meet the requirements of Regulation 9 are treated as family members of EEA nationals for the purposes of the EEA Regulations.

Applications for EEA family permits must meet the following criteria:

• The British citizen is residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or was doing so before returning to the UK.
• If the family member of the British citizen is their spouse or civil partner, they are living together in the EEA country or they entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in that EEA country before returning to the UK.

[bifftastic]

Almost.

In your scenario she would not have to go through German immigration/settlement procedures, she could apply under the EEA regulations. I'm not sure about Germany's procedures for this, but as Germany is a Schengen state I think she would first obtain a Schengen visa from the German embassy in Thailand and then apply for residence once in Germany.

If she was moving directly from Thailand to join you in the UK then yes, the EEA route would not be possible. Not because it would be seen as circumventing the UK immigration rules but because the EEA regulations specifically say that they do not apply when the family member is coming from outside the EEA to the EEA national's home country.

Thanks for that, much clearer now.

It was all hypothetical, but I wanted to have a better understanding because I see many people who read about the EEA permit, notice that it's free and apparently easy to get, and then feel that they have found a way to avoid the UKBA settlement procedures.

Which they haven't.

Unless, as has been suggested (I think!), you can just turn up at the Irish border (because Ireland is doing really well at the moment, jobs, a place to live etc. can be found just like that!) demand that they let you and your wife settle there. Live there for a while and then up sticks again, get an EEA permit and move to the UK (again, easy to do, because our economy is also thriving).

Saving yourself around £900

[7by7]

You'd save the cost of the initial settlement visa, £810, plus the cost of ILR, £972 by post or £1350 in person. Plus the cost of satisfying KOL; which if done via a course would not be more than £500 (probably a lost less, this college charges £250).

So you'd save approximately a maximum of £2660.

Obviously the cost of relocating from Thailand to another EEA state would be about the same as to the UK. However, you would then have to pay the cost of relocating from that state to the UK.

I'm willing to be proven wrong by someone producing actual quotes, but I doubt that it could be done for less than £5000.

So following AP's suggestion would actually be more expensive than applying via the UK's immigration rules and coming directly to the UK.

AP may now say that the cost of relocation would be minimal as the family could pitch a tent somewhere and live on hand outs from passers-by while in the other EEA state, claiming when returning to the UK that they were setting up a business whilst there!

[ludditeman]

I couldn't go the UKBA route anyway, so saving money not relevant.

Partner owns nothing in Thailand and would have no reason to return.

I own nothing in the UK, and have no living relatives.

[AngryParent]

You'd save the cost of the initial settlement visa, £810, plus the cost of ILR, £972 by post or £1350 in person. Plus the cost of satisfying KOL; which if done via a course would not be more than £500 (probably a lost less, this college charges £250).

So you'd save approximately a maximum of £2660.

Obviously the cost of relocating from Thailand to another EEA state would be about the same as to the UK. However, you would then have to pay the cost of relocating from that state to the UK.

I'm willing to be proven wrong by someone producing actual quotes, but I doubt that it could be done for less than £5000.

So following AP's suggestion would actually be more expensive than applying via the UK's immigration rules and coming directly to the UK.

AP may now say that the cost of relocation would be minimal as the family could pitch a tent somewhere and live on hand outs from passers-by while in the other EEA state, claiming when returning to the UK that they were setting up a business whilst there!

Thanks for telling us the UK spouse visa route costs a whopping £2660! That is a big sum and assumes one gets the visa first time (or costs go up). What about non-British children (if the family has such)? That already doubles that to well over £5000! What about bringing the extended family? £10,000 so far? Under the EEA route wife, non-UK children and the extended family are FREE!

However, do not forget that the concept needs employment, and thus cost of living in the EEA country are recovered i.e. the EEA route could almost result in ZERO use of savings!

I did some quick looking at the number of EEA family permits that are issued by British embassies around the world, in Thailand it was 11 in September 2011, A whole year around 130 (for just Thailand)? Ireland had 75 for that same month (a year around 900)? So, obviously many people think the EEA entry method is good (granted many/most may not be UK citizens but still lots of people in the world like this EEA system)! http://www.ukba.home...ocessing-times/

I could even give a great idea, bring the extended family, and you have a "free workforce" look at this pub, and there are losts more that are cheaper. It is a mansion, and with a free workforce, you have a very profitable business (wold probably even qualify for bank credit (to startup) as operational costs would be minimal)! http://www.greenekin....php?site=13038

Already you are proven wrong.

Edited December 11, 2011 by AngryParent

[AngryParent]

You'd save the cost of the initial settlement visa, £810, plus the cost of ILR, £972 by post or £1350 in person. Plus the cost of satisfying KOL; which if done via a course would not be more than £500 (probably a lost less, this college charges £250).

So you'd save approximately a maximum of £2660.

Obviously the cost of relocating from Thailand to another EEA state would be about the same as to the UK. However, you would then have to pay the cost of relocating from that state to the UK.

I'm willing to be proven wrong by someone producing actual quotes, but I doubt that it could be done for less than £5000.

So following AP's suggestion would actually be more expensive than applying via the UK's immigration rules and coming directly to the UK.

AP may now say that the cost of relocation would be minimal as the family could pitch a tent somewhere and live on hand outs from passers-by while in the other EEA state, claiming when returning to the UK that they were setting up a business whilst there!

Thanks for telling us the UK spouse visa route costs a whopping £2660! That is a big sum and assumes one gets the visa first time (or costs go up). What about non-British children (if the family has such)? That already doubles that to well over £5000! What about bringing the extended family? £10,000 so far? Under the EEA route wife, non-UK children and the extended family are FREE!

However, do not forget that the concept needs employment, and thus cost of living in the EEA country are recovered i.e. the EEA route could almost result in ZERO use of savings!

I did some quick looking at the number of EEA family permits that are issued by British embassies around the world, in Thailand it was 11 in September 2011, A whole year around 130 (for just Thailand)? Ireland had 75 for that same month (a year around 900)? So, obviously many people think the EEA entry method is good (granted many/most may not be UK citizens but still lots of people in the world like this EEA system)! http://www.ukba.home...ocessing-times/

I could even give a great idea, bring the extended family, and you have a "free workforce" look at this pub, and there are losts more that are cheaper. It is a mansion, and with a free workforce, you have a very profitable business (wold probably even qualify for bank credit (to startup) as operational costs would be minimal)! http://www.greenekin....php?site=13038

Already you are proven wrong.

To add a bit more to the above.

Now for the bombshell! You claim that the non-EEA spouse needs to wait for 5+ years to get permanant residence. Actually, in 3 years she/he gets UK citizenship!!! http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/naturalisation/spouseorcivilpartnerofcitizen/ in case you are sceptical, the EU system UK residence card = UK residence (and the family has right to remain for 5 years under the UK family permit i.e. nothing can prevent UK citizenship)!

[bifftastic]

You'd save the cost of the initial settlement visa, £810, plus the cost of ILR, £972 by post or £1350 in person. Plus the cost of satisfying KOL; which if done via a course would not be more than £500 (probably a lost less, this college charges £250).

So you'd save approximately a maximum of £2660.

Obviously the cost of relocating from Thailand to another EEA state would be about the same as to the UK. However, you would then have to pay the cost of relocating from that state to the UK.

I'm willing to be proven wrong by someone producing actual quotes, but I doubt that it could be done for less than £5000.

So following AP's suggestion would actually be more expensive than applying via the UK's immigration rules and coming directly to the UK.

AP may now say that the cost of relocation would be minimal as the family could pitch a tent somewhere and live on hand outs from passers-by while in the other EEA state, claiming when returning to the UK that they were setting up a business whilst there!

Thanks

I was just trying to establish that the EEA family permit isn't some kind of 'easy fix' for people to move to the UK with their families.

As I usually say, I think that it's always best to live your life how you want to and use the visa that applies to your circumstances, rather than changing your plans to suit the visa you might think is easiest to obtain.

I mean if someone wants to settle in the UK, then why faff about moving to Ireland (or anywhere else) first?

It just seems a bit daft really.

I mean if your circumstances actually took you to another EU state (a job offer or family commitments), and then another opportunity opened up in the UK, than that would be the obvious route to take. But to apply for resident status in a country that you don't really want to live in, and then move to the UK just so you don't have to apply to the UK authorities for residency, just seems to be a lot of unnecessary upheaval for little gain.

[bifftastic]

I couldn't go the UKBA route anyway, so saving money not relevant.

Partner owns nothing in Thailand and would have no reason to return.

I own nothing in the UK, and have no living relatives.

You don't need a reason to return if you're settling in the UK, you won't be returning!

[samran]

You'd save the cost of the initial settlement visa, £810, plus the cost of ILR, £972 by post or £1350 in person. Plus the cost of satisfying KOL; which if done via a course would not be more than £500 (probably a lost less, this college charges £250).

So you'd save approximately a maximum of £2660.

Obviously the cost of relocating from Thailand to another EEA state would be about the same as to the UK. However, you would then have to pay the cost of relocating from that state to the UK.

I'm willing to be proven wrong by someone producing actual quotes, but I doubt that it could be done for less than £5000.

So following AP's suggestion would actually be more expensive than applying via the UK's immigration rules and coming directly to the UK.

AP may now say that the cost of relocation would be minimal as the family could pitch a tent somewhere and live on hand outs from passers-by while in the other EEA state, claiming when returning to the UK that they were setting up a business whilst there!

Thanks for telling us the UK spouse visa route costs a whopping £2660! That is a big sum and assumes one gets the visa first time (or costs go up). What about non-British children (if the family has such)? That already doubles that to well over £5000! What about bringing the extended family? £10,000 so far? Under the EEA route wife, non-UK children and the extended family are FREE!

However, do not forget that the concept needs employment, and thus cost of living in the EEA country are recovered i.e. the EEA route could almost result in ZERO use of savings!

I did some quick looking at the number of EEA family permits that are issued by British embassies around the world, in Thailand it was 11 in September 2011, A whole year around 130 (for just Thailand)? Ireland had 75 for that same month (a year around 900)? So, obviously many people think the EEA entry method is good (granted many/most may not be UK citizens but still lots of people in the world like this EEA system)! http://www.ukba.home...ocessing-times/

I could even give a great idea, bring the extended family, and you have a "free workforce" look at this pub, and there are losts more that are cheaper. It is a mansion, and with a free workforce, you have a very profitable business (wold probably even qualify for bank credit (to startup) as operational costs would be minimal)! http://www.greenekin....php?site=13038

Already you are proven wrong.

I really hope you teach neither finance or entrepreneurship under the bridge which you live under...

[7by7]

Thanks for telling us the UK spouse visa route costs a whopping £2660! That is a big sum and assumes one gets the visa first time (or costs go up). What about non-British children (if the family has such)? That already doubles that to well over £5000! What about bringing the extended family? £10,000 so far? Under the EEA route wife, non-UK children and the extended family are FREE!

However, do not forget that the concept needs employment, and thus cost of living in the EEA country are recovered i.e. the EEA route could almost result in ZERO use of savings!

So, using your logic, those who enter the UK directly will never have any employment and be living entirely off their savings!

In the real world, for most people; if moving directly to the UK, the settlement costs will be covered by income; if moving first to another EEA state the subsequent cost of relocating to the UK will be covered by income. As the cost of relocating from one EEA state to another will be at least double the entire cost of settlement, the direct to the UK way is obviously cheaper.

Extended family members do not automatically qualify for entry under the EEA regulations. They can be refused and probably would be unless they were previously living with the EEA national outside the EEA and dependent upon him.

Now for the bombshell! You claim that the non-EEA spouse needs to wait for 5+ years to get permanant residence. Actually, in 3 years she/he gets UK citizenship!!! http://www.ukba.home...rtnerofcitizen/ in case you are sceptical, the EU system UK residence card = UK residence (and the family has right to remain for 5 years under the UK family permit i.e. nothing can prevent UK citizenship)!

You really must learn to read the links you post in their entirety. Using a link to prove your point when in fact it does the opposite only shows you to be lazy and foolish.

Read the above link all the way through and you will see that in order to apply for naturalisation one must have no time restrictions on their stay in the UK. Not the right to remain for 5 years but no time restrictions at all.

Entering using the EEA regulations means that this will not happen until one has been living in the UK for 5 years and has PR. That one is the spouse or civil partner of a British citizen does not change this. One cannot apply for ILR after 2 years because ILR is a UK immigration category and one will not be in the UK under the immigration rules.There are several dual Irish/British nationals who are members of this forum and who used their Irish nationality to obtain EEA family permits for their spouses to live in the UK who can confirm this is so.

You also obviously have no idea about running a pub. I was once the assistant manager of a pub, and do.The costs are not minimal. As well as buying the tenancy you will have to pay the rent decided by the brewery, with regular increases, business rates, insurance, wages, employers NI contributions etc. In addition, with most tenancies you must buy all your stock from the brewery at the price they choose. Even nipping down to the local cash and carry because you've run out of crisps would mean you were in breach of your agreement and you'd be out on your ear if the brewery found out. Plus, how many customers would you retain if all your staff were your Thai spouse's family who could not speak much, if any, English!

[7by7]

I couldn't go the UKBA route anyway, so saving money not relevant.

Partner owns nothing in Thailand and would have no reason to return.

I own nothing in the UK, and have no living relatives.

You don't need a reason to return if you're settling in the UK, you won't be returning!

Indeed, bifftastic.

Don't see how not owning anything in the UK would stop you applying for, and obtaining, a settlement visa for your wife but not stop you moving with her to another EEA state. Maybe, ludditeman, you own a property in another EEA state and so intend to move there and live in it?

I'm sorry to hear that you have no living relatives; but again fail to see how that is relevant to this topic or a UK settlement visa application by your wife.

[AngryParent]

Thanks for telling us the UK spouse visa route costs a whopping £2660! That is a big sum and assumes one gets the visa first time (or costs go up). What about non-British children (if the family has such)? That already doubles that to well over £5000! What about bringing the extended family? £10,000 so far? Under the EEA route wife, non-UK children and the extended family are FREE!

However, do not forget that the concept needs employment, and thus cost of living in the EEA country are recovered i.e. the EEA route could almost result in ZERO use of savings!

So, using your logic, those who enter the UK directly will never have any employment and be living entirely off their savings!

In the real world, for most people; if moving directly to the UK, the settlement costs will be covered by income; if moving first to another EEA state the subsequent cost of relocating to the UK will be covered by income. As the cost of relocating from one EEA state to another will be at least double the entire cost of settlement, the direct to the UK way is obviously cheaper.

Extended family members do not automatically qualify for entry under the EEA regulations. They can be refused and probably would be unless they were previously living with the EEA national outside the EEA and dependent upon him.

Now for the bombshell! You claim that the non-EEA spouse needs to wait for 5+ years to get permanant residence. Actually, in 3 years she/he gets UK citizenship!!! http://www.ukba.home...rtnerofcitizen/ in case you are sceptical, the EU system UK residence card = UK residence (and the family has right to remain for 5 years under the UK family permit i.e. nothing can prevent UK citizenship)!

You really must learn to read the links you post in their entirety. Using a link to prove your point when in fact it does the opposite only shows you to be lazy and foolish.

Read the above link all the way through and you will see that in order to apply for naturalisation one must have no time restrictions on their stay in the UK. Not the right to remain for 5 years but no time restrictions at all.

Entering using the EEA regulations means that this will not happen until one has been living in the UK for 5 years and has PR. That one is the spouse or civil partner of a British citizen does not change this. One cannot apply for ILR after 2 years because ILR is a UK immigration category and one will not be in the UK under the immigration rules.There are several dual Irish/British nationals who are members of this forum and who used their Irish nationality to obtain EEA family permits for their spouses to live in the UK who can confirm this is so.

You also obviously have no idea about running a pub. I was once the assistant manager of a pub, and do.The costs are not minimal. As well as buying the tenancy you will have to pay the rent decided by the brewery, with regular increases, business rates, insurance, wages, employers NI contributions etc. In addition, with most tenancies you must buy all your stock from the brewery at the price they choose. Even nipping down to the local cash and carry because you've run out of crisps would mean you were in breach of your agreement and you'd be out on your ear if the brewery found out. Plus, how many customers would you retain if all your staff were your Thai spouse's family who could not speak much, if any, English!

To reply to the first part, if one has a job in the UK then they would not use this route as I have said before. Thus, your criticism on this is invalid and my points remain.

Proving dependency for extended family might not be too hard for many families in Thailand - I think I have read multiple threads where foreigners constantly support such.

As for my UK citizenship idea, what did I mention in a post before, if the UK family becomes stable, the wife can happily leave the UK for a month and apply for ILE, then as no time restrictions apply, we are as per my 3 year statement! And you are wrong again.

As for the pub idea, that was an interesting idea that may work or may not. As for your "you must buy all your stock from the brewery at the price they choose" you are wrong, if you read the link it says free of ties on wines, spirits and minerals. As for rents etc - most businesses have such operational costs.You might not be able to make it work (as you have indicated above, does not mean somebody else can't too). This thread is not about how to use the EEA method to move back to the UK to run a pub - it was just an interesting tangent.

[7by7]

As for my UK citizenship idea, what did I mention in a post before, if the UK family becomes stable, the wife can happily leave the UK for a month and apply for ILE, then as no time restrictions apply, we are as per my 3 year statement! And you are wrong again.

Apart from the fact that the ILE application will have to be paid for, which negates the whole foundation of your argument, to qualify for ILE the couple must have been living together outside the UK for a continuous period of at least 4 years (Immigration rules, para 281(i)( b )(i) and 282( b )). You are wrong again.

They could apply for ILE in whichever EEA state they have temporarily moved to; but if they qualify for ILE better to apply for it in Thailand and save the expense of a move to one EEA state quickly followed by a move to the UK!

As for the pub idea..........You might not be able to make it work

Apart from the fact that the pub was very successful, you haven't read it all yet again! Either that, or you don't understand what the word assistant means!

That one pub from Greene King may be free of such ties; most are not. Obvious, really, otherwise Greene King would not have highlighted such freedom as a selling point in their ad.

You obviously don't understand the difference between supplying some support, which may or may not be needed, and living with and being totally dependent upon.

This is not the first time you have shown such non understanding of English, e.g. not knowing the meaning of the word 'assistant' in my previous. Is English your first language?

I said before that I couldn't be bothered with this anymore; this time I mean it. If you wish to continue with your fantasies; I will no longer be participating.

[AngryParent]

As for my UK citizenship idea, what did I mention in a post before, if the UK family becomes stable, the wife can happily leave the UK for a month and apply for ILE, then as no time restrictions apply, we are as per my 3 year statement! And you are wrong again.

Apart from the fact that the ILE application will have to be paid for, which negates the whole foundation of your argument, to qualify for ILE the couple must have been living together outside the UK for a continuous period of at least 4 years (Immigration rules, para 281(i)( b )(i) and 282( b )). You are wrong again.

They could apply for ILE in whichever EEA state they have temporarily moved to; but if they qualify for ILE better to apply for it in Thailand and save the expense of a move to one EEA state quickly followed by a move to the UK!

As for the pub idea..........You might not be able to make it work

Apart from the fact that the pub was very successful, you haven't read it all yet again! Either that, or you don't understand what the word assistant means!

That one pub from Greene King may be free of such ties; most are not. Obvious, really, otherwise Greene King would not have highlighted such freedom as a selling point in their ad.

You obviously don't understand the difference between supplying some support, which may or may not be needed, and living with and being totally dependent upon.

This is not the first time you have shown such non understanding of English, e.g. not knowing the meaning of the word 'assistant' in my previous. Is English your first language?

I said before that I couldn't be bothered with this anymore; this time I mean it. If you wish to continue with your fantasies; I will no longer be participating.

As you don't want to participate - and this is in reply to your post about costs of EEA vs other routes i.e. your topic. Then I won't bother replying except to 2 points (more valuable than the pub).

1. No, the external ILE (at a later date) does not negate the whole argument. This EEA route is for those who may not have the funds or might not qualify etc to get the spouse visa whilst not having a base or anything in the UK. Then under this EEA route they can build a life again (in the UK) and when ready can either do an outside ILE or they can just live happily for 5 years (almost like PR as they cannot be kicked out) and then get PR or citizenship.

2. I am sure those who want to bring the extended family will be more than happy to provide proof of dependance (at a level greater than just support). I am sure they could even provide evidence that the sick buffalo is a family member

Please don't get me wrong, I really have better things to do then split hairs on minor matters e.g. the pub. I am sure you were a great assistant manager and the pub was the best in the UK and you could give great advice on the ins and outs etc.

You disbelieved that it would be cheaper to do the EEA route, I showed that it could be (depending on the number of people and getting employment that pays for the extra costs in the third party EU nation). But you did raise a valid question and that is something others will have to think about. In my case, it probably would work out cheaper and better (would also be an interesting experience and stepping stone for the family).

Edited December 12, 2011 by AngryParent

[AngryParent]

I couldn't go the UKBA route anyway, so saving money not relevant.

Partner owns nothing in Thailand and would have no reason to return.

I own nothing in the UK, and have no living relatives.

You don't need a reason to return if you're settling in the UK, you won't be returning!

Indeed, bifftastic.

Don't see how not owning anything in the UK would stop you applying for, and obtaining, a settlement visa for your wife but not stop you moving with her to another EEA state. Maybe, ludditeman, you own a property in another EEA state and so intend to move there and live in it?

I'm sorry to hear that you have no living relatives; but again fail to see how that is relevant to this topic or a UK settlement visa application by your wife.

OK, for all those who keep harping on about the benefits of paying 2600 Pounds to get the spouse back to the UK (when approval is not certain).

Stop and think for 1 minute that you might be insulting thousands of honest and hardworking people - UK citizens who might only have 1-2 thousand Pounds in the bank. Before you quickly babble about how foolish or it is the fault of the person that has limited funds, think for one ___ minute that these 1-2 thousand Pounds savings is a lot more than many who live in the UK have NOW! And you are asking them to blow this on a visa and then will not even be able to afford the trip back or living expenses in the UK?

You casually act like, hey apply, or hey, if you cannot get it today, change your life and next year or the decade later you can achieve it (till then it is the fault of the poor guy)! Cheap and easy words that often sound like the quick words of a 20-30 something person who thinks he/she knows it all but has never lived in the shoes of the other person.

I am not luditeman, but I find it insulting and highly irritating that there is a round of back slapping with bifftastic regarding - yes, we as a group agree etc when luditeman said he is not in a privledged positon and chose a certainn route. Did he insult anyone? NO! So why have a hearty back slapping event at his expense?

I honestly posted this thread with the hope that it will benefit the excluded.

Edited December 12, 2011 by AngryParent

[bobrussell]

Without being particularly interested in getting drawn into such a bizarre thread and without wading through vast numbers of posts which seem to argue in circles the plan seems to be to by-pass the UK immigration system (unless I am wrong!).

A few things leave me a bit confused. A UK family arrives in a non-UK country within the EU. Who pays for the first meal? Who provides shelter for the night? If you have savings to pay for this why not just apply properly in the first case? If you are without two pennies to rub together do you expect the foreign country to pay for you to live there?

If you have a job and housing arranged why did you not do this in the UK in the first place and do without the hassle? I am clearly missing something. There may be a technicality that allows someone to by-pass UK law but this is pointless if it is more complicated and expensive than doing things the legal way!

We have all grumbled about the cost of settlement visas but they are peanuts compared to the costs of setting up home for a few weeks only to move lock-stock and barrel to the UK! If you have children the value of the NHS and schools rapidly make settlement look very good value.

Proving someone is a dependent to the satisfaction of any of the EU countries requires a lot of evidence. If this is going to be 'manufactured' there will be the risk of rejection if found out and a big black mark will follow future applications.

This seems to be a thread where theory outstrips all common sense! Of course I may have missed something important.

[AngryParent]

Without being particularly interested in getting drawn into such a bizarre thread and without wading through vast numbers of posts which seem to argue in circles the plan seems to be to by-pass the UK immigration system (unless I am wrong!).

A few things leave me a bit confused. A UK family arrives in a non-UK country within the EU. Who pays for the first meal? Who provides shelter for the night? If you have savings to pay for this why not just apply properly in the first case? If you are without two pennies to rub together do you expect the foreign country to pay for you to live there?

If you have a job and housing arranged why did you not do this in the UK in the first place and do without the hassle? I am clearly missing something. There may be a technicality that allows someone to by-pass UK law but this is pointless if it is more complicated and expensive than doing things the legal way!

We have all grumbled about the cost of settlement visas but they are peanuts compared to the costs of setting up home for a few weeks only to move lock-stock and barrel to the UK! If you have children the value of the NHS and schools rapidly make settlement look very good value.

Proving someone is a dependent to the satisfaction of any of the EU countries requires a lot of evidence. If this is going to be 'manufactured' there will be the risk of rejection if found out and a big black mark will follow future applications.

This seems to be a thread where theory outstrips all common sense! Of course I may have missed something important.

You have indeed missed something. Taking a simple job in the UK may not ensure UK spouse and dependant (lets keep it to a child - extended families we can debate later) visas. Also, the high priceof the visas can erode much/most of any savings. Without any family or friends in the UK a person would need to have a suitable property (rented at minimum) and for London around 150-200 a week (minimum), + around 150 additional income for a spouse and child. That itself is above the minimum wage jobs. However, a quick and simple job in the EU ensures UK entry and that job also pays for the stay in that EU country!

Edited December 12, 2011 by AngryParent

[ludditeman]

Without being particularly interested in getting drawn into such a bizarre thread and without wading through vast numbers of posts which seem to argue in circles the plan seems to be to by-pass the UK immigration system (unless I am wrong!).

A few things leave me a bit confused. A UK family arrives in a non-UK country within the EU. Who pays for the first meal? Who provides shelter for the night? If you have savings to pay for this why not just apply properly in the first case? If you are without two pennies to rub together do you expect the foreign country to pay for you to live there?

If you have a job and housing arranged why did you not do this in the UK in the first place and do without the hassle? I am clearly missing something. There may be a technicality that allows someone to by-pass UK law but this is pointless if it is more complicated and expensive than doing things the legal way!

We have all grumbled about the cost of settlement visas but they are peanuts compared to the costs of setting up home for a few weeks only to move lock-stock and barrel to the UK! If you have children the value of the NHS and schools rapidly make settlement look very good value.

Proving someone is a dependent to the satisfaction of any of the EU countries requires a lot of evidence. If this is going to be 'manufactured' there will be the risk of rejection if found out and a big black mark will follow future applications.

This seems to be a thread where theory outstrips all common sense! Of course I may have missed something important.

OK, so I have 5000ukp in savings

After applying for a Visa for my wife and my step-daughter, I will have almost nothing left to pay for accommodation in the UK, not that it would be enough to be granted access in the first place. I don't have a sponsor or anyone I can stay with in the UK, I have to provide for my wife and step-daughter.

Alternatively, I can use that 5000ukp to feed and accommodate us in Ireland, we can all be together and we can get jobs, many jobs come with accommodation even if only a caravan.

Then I can move to the UK with the family, claim a council home (based on entitlement for me and my son) immediately, and hopefully still have some of my 5000ukp left to get me started.

[bobrussell]

Without being particularly interested in getting drawn into such a bizarre thread and without wading through vast numbers of posts which seem to argue in circles the plan seems to be to by-pass the UK immigration system (unless I am wrong!).

A few things leave me a bit confused. A UK family arrives in a non-UK country within the EU. Who pays for the first meal? Who provides shelter for the night? If you have savings to pay for this why not just apply properly in the first case? If you are without two pennies to rub together do you expect the foreign country to pay for you to live there?

If you have a job and housing arranged why did you not do this in the UK in the first place and do without the hassle? I am clearly missing something. There may be a technicality that allows someone to by-pass UK law but this is pointless if it is more complicated and expensive than doing things the legal way!

We have all grumbled about the cost of settlement visas but they are peanuts compared to the costs of setting up home for a few weeks only to move lock-stock and barrel to the UK! If you have children the value of the NHS and schools rapidly make settlement look very good value.

Proving someone is a dependent to the satisfaction of any of the EU countries requires a lot of evidence. If this is going to be 'manufactured' there will be the risk of rejection if found out and a big black mark will follow future applications.

This seems to be a thread where theory outstrips all common sense! Of course I may have missed something important.

OK, so I have 5000ukp in savings

After applying for a Visa for my wife and my step-daughter, I will have almost nothing left to pay for accommodation in the UK, not that it would be enough to be granted access in the first place. I don't have a sponsor or anyone I can stay with in the UK, I have to provide for my wife and step-daughter.

Alternatively, I can use that 5000ukp to feed and accommodate us in Ireland, we can all be together and we can get jobs, many jobs come with accommodation even if only a caravan.

Then I can move to the UK with the family, claim a council home (based on entitlement for me and my son) immediately, and hopefully still have some of my 5000ukp left to get me started

Or get a job in the UK. Have you seen unemployment figures in Eire? £5000 in savings will give you a start anywhere and if you have skills you should be able to put forward a reasonable case for settlement anyway.

Of course there is an empty council house waiting with your name on it especially if you have £5000 in savings! Around here the waiting list is several years but then you would be playing the system to jump the queue because that is your right! It is hardily surprising the government make things harder (and a heck of a lot more expensive) for legitimate family settlement with this attitude. Entitlement will get you on the waiting list.

If you can get a job anywhere why not just take it and stay with it until something better comes along? This seems the most responsible thing to do. If it is in another EU country so be it.

The government argument is that as a citizen you are allowed to marry a non-EU citizen but don't expect the tax-payer to pay for it.

I am far from being a fan of the existing situation and visa fees but even less of a fan of those that try to by-pass them.

Many of us have been through the grind and succeeded with settlement of family without by passing the rules.

[ludditeman]

Of course there is an empty council house waiting with your name on it especially if you have £5000 in savings! Around here the waiting list is several years but then you would be playing the system to jump the queue because that is your right! It is hardily surprising the government make things harder (and a heck of a lot more expensive) for legitimate family settlement with this attitude. Entitlement will get you on the waiting list.

If I were to take the official route.

I would be returning to the UK with my baby son alone (both of us UK citizens). This would entitle me to instant emergency housing, and a council house within a month, and I wouldn't be able to work, because the UKBA would have made me a single parent family. You wouldn't believe the entitlement and benefits I can get after being forced into 'single parent' status by a government organization.

PS. 5k in savings won't buy me anything in the UK if I spent it all on Visas.

Edited December 12, 2011 by ludditeman

[bifftastic]

I couldn't go the UKBA route anyway, so saving money not relevant.

Partner owns nothing in Thailand and would have no reason to return.

I own nothing in the UK, and have no living relatives.

You don't need a reason to return if you're settling in the UK, you won't be returning!

Indeed, bifftastic.

Don't see how not owning anything in the UK would stop you applying for, and obtaining, a settlement visa for your wife but not stop you moving with her to another EEA state. Maybe, ludditeman, you own a property in another EEA state and so intend to move there and live in it?

I'm sorry to hear that you have no living relatives; but again fail to see how that is relevant to this topic or a UK settlement visa application by your wife.

OK, for all those who keep harping on about the benefits of paying 2600 Pounds to get the spouse back to the UK (when approval is not certain).

Stop and think for 1 minute that you might be insulting thousands of honest and hardworking people - UK citizens who might only have 1-2 thousand Pounds in the bank. Before you quickly babble about how foolish or it is the fault of the person that has limited funds, think for one ___ minute that these 1-2 thousand Pounds savings is a lot more than many who live in the UK have NOW! And you are asking them to blow this on a visa and then will not even be able to afford the trip back or living expenses in the UK?

You casually act like, hey apply, or hey, if you cannot get it today, change your life and next year or the decade later you can achieve it (till then it is the fault of the poor guy)! Cheap and easy words that often sound like the quick words of a 20-30 something person who thinks he/she knows it all but has never lived in the shoes of the other person.

I am not luditeman, but I find it insulting and highly irritating that there is a round of back slapping with bifftastic regarding - yes, we as a group agree etc when luditeman said he is not in a privledged positon and chose a certainn route. Did he insult anyone? NO! So why have a hearty back slapping event at his expense?

I honestly posted this thread with the hope that it will benefit the excluded.

Backslapping? All I was asking for was clarification.

I have heard a few people asking about the EEA permit as a way to settle permanently in the UK without having to go through the usual settlement visa route. I had always thought that in order to do that, the people involved would first have to settle in another EU state, what I didn't understand is how exactly that makes anything easier, as presumably those people would have to satisfy the settlement requirements of that EU state first, and then move to the UK via the EEA permit, which would be the right thing to do if their circumstances led them down that route and avoid them having to apply for and pay for, two lots of settlement visas (a perfectly reasonable arrangement).

What I don't understand is in all of your threads Angry Parent, when people have views that differ from yours, you seem to take that as a personal slight and react as if they must be wrong and the notion that you first post with is correct. Even if it later doesn't appear to be so, you then seem to want to argue with everyone that it either is, or should be.

Is winning an argument more important than finding out the truth?

Do you post wanting advice and clarification? Or do you only seek to pontificate and 'help the excluded'?

What could have been a helpful and informative thread containing information, has now become yet another silly thread full of arguments. Similar to the one on Thai citizenship that AP started before his latest crusade to aid the poor unfortunate excluded UK nationals with non-EU spouses who, it turns out, now have the 'simple' option of moving to a different EU state altogether (finding a 'simple' job, whatever that might be!) before uprooting their disadvantaged family once more to settle in the UK.

I find it all very very odd.

"let's move to the UK"

"the settlement visa's a bit tricky to get"

"Ok, let's move to Ireland first, get some simple work and then move to the UK later, that way the visa is free"

"great idea, let's book the tickets tomorrow, what do we have to do to be able to live in Ireland?"

"nothing, we just turn up and demand that they let us in!"

"really?"

"yes, I've argued with everyone who says it can't be done, so it must be true"

"excellent, let's go, our lives will be perfect now"

"yes, and there's the added bonus that we won't be insulting any of the people in the UK who haven't got any savings"

Edited December 12, 2011 by bifftastic

[AngryParent]

Backslapping? All I was asking for was clarification.

I have heard a few people asking about the EEA permit as a way to settle permanently in the UK without having to go through the usual settlement visa route. I had always thought that in order to do that, the people involved would first have to settle in another EU state, what I didn't understand is how exactly that makes anything easier, as presumably those people would have to satisfy the settlement requirements of that EU state first, and then move to the UK via the EEA permit, which would be the right thing to do if their circumstances led them down that route and avoid them having to apply for and pay for, two lots of settlement visas (a perfectly reasonable arrangement).

What I don't understand is in all of your threads Angry Parent, when people have views that differ from yours, you seem to take that as a personal slight and react as if they must be wrong and the notion that you first post with is correct. Even if it later doesn't appear to be so, you then seem to want to argue with everyone that it either is, or should be.

Is winning an argument more important than finding out the truth?

Do you post wanting advice and clarification? Or do you only seek to pontificate and 'help the excluded'?

What could have been a helpful and informative thread containing information, has now become yet another silly thread full of arguments. Similar to the one on Thai citizenship that AP started before his latest crusade to aid the poor unfortunate excluded UK nationals with non-EU spouses who, it turns out, now have the 'simple' option of moving to a different EU state altogether (finding a 'simple' job, whatever that might be!) before uprooting their disadvantaged family once more to settle in the UK.

I find it all very very odd.

"let's move to the UK"

"the settlement visa's a bit tricky to get"

"Ok, let's move to Ireland first, get some simple work and then move to the UK later, that way the visa is free"

"great idea, let's book the tickets tomorrow, what do we have to do to be able to live in Ireland?"

"nothing, we just turn up and demand that they let us in!"

"really?"

"yes, I've argued with everyone who says it can't be done, so it must be true"

"excellent, let's go, our lives will be perfect now"

"yes, and there's the added bonus that we won't be insulting any of the people in the UK who haven't got any savings"

I really don't care what you believe or not, no do I care what the muppets on the Thai nationality thread said.

The fact of the matter is I am correct here and also there - full stop!

Hey, I debate (not argue) to show that I am correct (this finds and shows the truth - as, if I cannot debate, then obviously my point is wrong). If you want me to say "yes sir" to every moronic idea that is incorrect or to those who disbelieve (because they cannot research like I have) - then those who spout such ideas, can start to pay my bills and live in my shoes first! Till then, I will continue to state facts, post excellent ideas and if wrong I will accept (as I have done in the past - but I am not wrong that often). If you and others like blinkers then wear them - don't ask me to wear them to. This EEA thread has developed with much fleshing out of a concept and many, many valid facts have been brought to the table by myself (that were not there before) - just like in the Thai nationality thread.

You claim one has to uproot a family - well if you want to go to the UK, you would have to do that from Thailand! You claim some sort of settlement in Europe - 7by7 has already told you it is not settlement. If you think it is too hard to go to Ireland and work for a short time, that enables the wife and children to get 5 year stay in the UK, that costs less than the trip back from Ireland, then feel free to give 2600 Pounds (or much more over the next 2-3 years) to the UK govt and if you are refused a visa don't blame me - because I have already said this EEA route is not for all, only those who are not stable in the UK or who might not qualify for the visa.This EEA family permit is used by THOUSANDS of people moving to the UK - so, feel free to believe that it is nonsense scheme!

Edited December 13, 2011 by AngryParent