Cambodian Soldiers Fire At Thai Helicopter Near Border In Trat Province

[webfact]

Fired-upon chopper never entered Cambodia: Marines chief

The Nation

A Royal Thai Navy helicopter that came under fire from Cambodian troops on Thursday had not strayed into Cambodian airspace, Royal Thai Marine Corps commanderinchief Vice Admiral Pongsak Phuriroj, who is in charge of border defence in Chantaburi and Trat, said yesterday.

The Thai Navy Bell 212 helicopter was struck by machinegun fire from the Cambodian side, causing damage to the helicopter's rotor. At the time, it was delivering food to Thai and Cambodian border soldiers based just 50 metres away.

"Soldiers in the field regularly provide supplies for [Thai] soldiers - and also Cambodia's troops, as Thai and Cambodian soldiers enjoy very good relations. They cook together every day. It is surprising that such an incident happened," Pongsak said, adding that Cambodian officers were scheduled to visit local Thai commanders today(Saturday) to discuss the incident.

He said the Royal Thai Navy had sent a letter protesting the act to Cambodia's Third Region Commander. Another letter was submitted through the Foreign Ministry.

Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul said he had received an initial report describing the incident as a misunderstanding.

-- The Nation 2011-12-17

[sparebox2]

Fired-upon chopper never entered Cambodia?

That depends which map they use. Thai map or Cambodian map.

Also, if it is shot at in Thailand, then the Cambodia army must be based in Thailand.

Because the AK shoot up against gravity, I don't think it can travel very far (sideway) and have kinetic energy left to do damage.

[sparebox2]

Normally if a helicopter goes a bit over the border it is not shot down. There is a protest note at best.

If a Cambodian logger strays over the border they are burnt alive, shot or just disappeared.

Did they find the six missing loggers last week or did they turn up dead along with the four others who were shot by the Thais?

Do you have proof?

[OzMick]

Fired-upon chopper never entered Cambodia?

That depends which map they use. Thai map or Cambodian map.

Also, if it is shot at in Thailand, then the Cambodia army must be based in Thailand.

Because the AK shoot up against gravity, I don't think it can travel very far (sideway) and have kinetic energy left to do damage.

It is unusual to find someone so ignorant of physics and ballistics, or at least one willing to pontificate on those subjects. For starters, a handful of gravel thrown into rapidly spinning rotor blades would cause damage

FYI v² = u² + 2 x a x S where v = final velocity (0), u = 900 m/sec (approximately), a = -9.8 m/sec/sec (acceleration due to gravity) and S = distance travelled. If friction with air is ignored, around 400 m is achievable when fired vertically upwards, and I would estimate 300m height at 300m horizontal distance allowing for friction.

As "At the time, it was delivering food to Thai and Cambodian border soldiers based just 50 metres away." it would be pretty reasonable to assume that it was within those distance parameters.

More interesting is the estimate of 100 rounds fired. Allowing for a bit of exaggeration, that's 3 magazines from an AK47. I don't imagine a chopper pilot is going to be a sitting duck for one rifleman to get off 3 magazines, more likely 3 riflemen or more likely still, a GPMG @ around 600/min.

Edited December 17, 2011 by OzMick

[ginjag]

Meanwhile, the Cambodian military later reported that it fired more than 100 rounds at the Thai helicopter

Were these 100 rounds from a BB gun?

There's no discernible damage in photos

100 shots fired at, not hit it. That is how I read it.

'Luckely' it is very hard for a normal grunt to hit a flying helicopter.

Why didn't they just wait for it to crash?

Yeah, you do not need firepower to bring down Thai helicopters down, you use them for an excuse not to attend meetings :lol:

[Oberkommando]

Do you have proof?

Of course.

OF THE five dirt-poor farmers who set out from Chhoeu Slab village in November in search of rosewood, only four returned. The fifth is recuperating in a Thai hospital, having been shot by a Thai border patrol.

http://www.economist.com/node/21541871

Police and military officials were searching for six missing Cambodians yesterday who villagers believe were shot dead by Thai soldiers on Saturday night after entering the Khun Han district of Thailand’s Si Saket province in search of luxury timber.

http://www.phnompenhpost.com/index.php/2011112853007/National-news/six-missing-after-border-shooting.html

Nearly 30 Cambodians have been shot dead while illegally crossing the Thai border since 2008, with many headed there for the purpose of illegal logging. Yesterday, Prime Minister Hun Sen said they have only themselves to blame.

http://www.phnompenhpost.com/index.php/2011121453355/National-news/hun-sen-puts-onus-on-loggers.html

[blackthorn2005]

This was reported by another means, and there was no mention of Cambodian Soldiers or anything like that, in fact I am sure it did not mention 100 rounds but one or two being fired.

Sensationalism from the Nation again maybe!!!

And what does " dock at the emergency landing" mean?

Thai press are reporting the 100 rounds

If I was in a helicopter and someone on the ground fired 100 rounds at me, I would return more that four!

[Buchholz]

This was reported by another means, and there was no mention of Cambodian Soldiers or anything like that, in fact I am sure it did not mention 100 rounds but one or two being fired.

Sensationalism from the Nation again maybe!!!

And what does " dock at the emergency landing" mean?

Thai press are reporting the 100 rounds

If I was in a helicopter and someone on the ground fired 100 rounds at me, I would return more that four!

updated news...

The chief stated that the chopper did not fire back, as it was not armed.

[anterian]

As I read elsewhere, the copter was flying in food supplies for the Thai and Cambodian soldiers, apparently they mess together. Perhaps someone was pissed off at the quality of the food?

[pauljones]

More of the same.

The Army has been itching for a fight over there since the yellow shirts brought up that old temple dispute a couple years ago.

Manufactured outrage, meant to rally the people around Abasit. Didn't work.

Could this aggressive action be the beginning of a manufactured crisis...then another coup?

[whybother]

More of the same.

The Army has been itching for a fight over there since the yellow shirts brought up that old temple dispute a couple years ago.

Manufactured outrage, meant to rally the people around Abasit. Didn't work.

Could this aggressive action be the beginning of a manufactured crisis...then another coup?

The Cambodians want a coup?

[Buchholz]

More of the same.

The Army has been itching for a fight over there since the yellow shirts brought up that old temple dispute a couple years ago.

Manufactured outrage, meant to rally the people around Abasit. Didn't work.

Could this aggressive action be the beginning of a manufactured crisis...then another coup?

Could be Hun Sen angling for a better deal with Thaksin over the oil and gas money.

Thaksin wouldn't be the first "friend" that Hun Sen flipped.

p.s. the border squabbling pre-dates PAD by centuries. Even with the more recent border spats, it predates even Thaksin... but not Hun Sen.

.

[Oberkommando]

The Cambodians want a coup?

Hun Sen is enjoying a period of popularity, ironically partly due to his strong-arm tactics when dealing with the Thais during the Democrats fumbling of the Preah Vihear issue. Cambodians are intensely proud of Preah Vihear. It is a iconic symbol of Cambodian history and the Khmer Empire.

I'm sure the Cambodians are happier with the political situation in Thailand now, as the fascist nutters and those who pander to overt nationalism and extremism have been removed from government office.

the border squabbling pre-dates PAD by centuries

Border conflict does but the issue was brought to the fore again by the fascist element of the PAD and their unreasonable demands and behaviour.

Of course after the illegal Thai army invasion and occupation of the temple in 1959 and the subsequent (and correct IMO) ICJ ruling that the site is Cambodian and the eviction of the Thai military from Cambodian soil it has been a sore point for Thai nationalists for decades.

[Buchholz]

the border squabbling pre-dates PAD by centuries

[/size][/color]

Border conflict does but the issue was brought to the fore again by the fascist element of the PAD and their unreasonable demands and behaviour.

Of course after the illegal Thai army invasion and occupation of the temple in 1959 and the subsequent (and correct IMO) ICJ ruling that the site is Cambodian and the eviction of the Thai military from Cambodian soil it has been a sore point for Thai nationalists for decades.

I can concur with you that the border squabbling, regarding the temple specifically, pre-dates PAD by decades.

.

[Oberkommando]

I can concur with you that the border squabbling, regarding the temple specifically, pre-dates PAD by decades.

.

However the ultimatums, protests and rituals carried out by the PAD added flames to the fire and exacerbated the situation after a peaceable solution looked to have been likely.

Not to mention PAD core leader and future foreign minister Kasit's remarks about Hun Sen.

[whybother]

I can concur with you that the border squabbling, regarding the temple specifically, pre-dates PAD by decades.

However the ultimatums, protests and rituals carried out by the PAD added flames to the fire and exacerbated the situation after a peaceable solution looked to have been likely.

Not to mention PAD core leader and future foreign minister Kasit's remarks about Hun Sen.

I didn't realise that Kasit was a "PAD core leader".

[bigbamboo]

the border squabbling pre-dates PAD by centuries

[/size][/color]

Border conflict does but the issue was brought to the fore again by the fascist element of the PAD and their unreasonable demands and behaviour.

Of course after the illegal Thai army invasion and occupation of the temple in 1959 and the subsequent (and correct IMO) ICJ ruling that the site is Cambodian and the eviction of the Thai military from Cambodian soil it has been a sore point for Thai nationalists for decades.

I can concur with you that the border squabbling, regarding the temple specifically, pre-dates PAD by decades.

.

Actually the Thai and Cambodian locals in the area around the temple had been getting on very well for years until some bright spark decided to make it a World Heritage site.

[phiphidon]

Normally if a helicopter goes a bit over the border it is not shot down. There is a protest note at best.

If a Cambodian logger strays over the border they are burnt alive, shot or just disappeared.

Did they find the six missing loggers last week or did they turn up dead along with the four others who were shot by the Thais?

Do you have proof?

http://www.upiasia.com/Human_Rights/2009/12/23/thai_miltary_killing_cambodian_loggers/7372/

[Oberkommando]

Actually the Thai and Cambodian locals in the area around the temple had been getting on very well for years until some bright spark decided to make it a World Heritage site.

The PAD 'solution' to the Preah Vihear World Heritage Listing (there's more at the link, but that's the jist of it).

“We would close all 40 Thai-Cambodian border checkpoints, and ban all flights to Phnom Penh and Siam Reap from Bangkok; 70% of flights to the two destinations are from Bangkok.

And then we would order the Defense Ministry to build a naval base at Koh Kut, deploy two battleships there, together with patrol ships, build a runway for F-16 aircraft, abolish the committee which oversees demarcation of overlapping sea areas, and officially declare our own marine map.

Cambodia would be hopping mad, but we would not bother because Cambodia would not have the nerve to fight us. They can make noises and threats because our own people are traitors. But if they see that Thai soldiers have a firm stand, the (new) Thai government has a firm stand, and the Thai people are ready to sacrifice their lives for sovereignty, they will back off. Cambodia can do nothing but to count on Thailand. If they want to count on Vietnam, let them do so, but problems would surely arise between the real Cambodians and the Vietnamese in future.

China openly makes friends with everybody, but furtively China knows that, between Thailand and Cambodia, it prefers Thailand.

When we declare all overlapping areas ours, Cambodia will surely protest. But we will not argue. We’ll send our battleships to seize any islands and islets we spot, or anchor our battleships in the overlapping sea territory.

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/732

[hellodolly]

the border squabbling pre-dates PAD by centuries

[/size][/color]

Border conflict does but the issue was brought to the fore again by the fascist element of the PAD and their unreasonable demands and behaviour.

Of course after the illegal Thai army invasion and occupation of the temple in 1959 and the subsequent (and correct IMO) ICJ ruling that the site is Cambodian and the eviction of the Thai military from Cambodian soil it has been a sore point for Thai nationalists for decades.

I can concur with you that the border squabbling, regarding the temple specifically, pre-dates PAD by decades.

.

Actually the Thai and Cambodian locals in the area around the temple had been getting on very well for years until some bright spark decided to make it a World Heritage site.

And you can bet your bottom Dollar that all those people could care less if it was a Heritage Site.

The only one's who claimed they cared were a group of rabble rousers.

They should stick to occupying airports they have some expertise in that.

One other interesting point the Thai helicopter crew says they returned fire only four rounds

The next thing is

"Chief of the Royal Thai Marine Corps, Vice Admiral Pongsak Phuriroj, who oversees security along the Thai-Cambodian border in Trat and Chanthaburi

The chief stated that the chopper did not fire back, as it was not armed.

I guess I could say TIT but maybe not all in Thailand.

[Ricardo]

Fired-upon chopper never entered Cambodia: Marines chief

The Nation

<snip for brevity>

At the time, it was delivering food to Thai and Cambodian border soldiers based just 50 metres away.

"Soldiers in the field regularly provide supplies for [Thai] soldiers - and also Cambodia's troops, as Thai and Cambodian soldiers enjoy very good relations. They cook together every day. It is surprising that such an incident happened," Pongsak said,

<snip for brevity>

-- The Nation 2011-12-17

Whist I've heard that military-rations are hardly gourmet-cuisine, this was surely an excessive measure, to delay the feast's arrival !

[Buchholz]

I can concur with you that the border squabbling, regarding the temple specifically, pre-dates PAD by decades.

However the ultimatums, protests and rituals carried out by the PAD added flames to the fire and exacerbated the situation after a peaceable solution looked to have been likely.

Not to mention PAD core leader and future foreign minister Kasit's remarks about Hun Sen.

I didn't realise that Kasit was a "PAD core leader".

He wasn't. It's just hyperbole to go along with completely ignoring Hun Sen's decades-long role in the periodic escalations throughout several Thai governments.

.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Buchholz

[geovalin]

From a French journalist in Phnom Penh

It does mean that the chopper wanted to land on the Cambodian soil. The Khmer soldiers shot to prevent that and the chopper landed on the Thai side. The Cambodian officer tried to find an explication to this attempt to enter Cambodian territory: the Thai military would like to erect Buddha statues along the border to reinforce their presence in this area.

http://www.lepetitjournal.com/cambodge/en-bref-cambodge/92073-diplomatie-tirs-dans-lespace-aerien-du-royaume.html:

Hier, dans le district de Mondul Seima, province de Koh Kong, l'armée cambodgienne a fait feu sur un hélicoptère thaïlandais vers 13h30. Le général Dy Phen, en charge du bureau des relations transfrontalières, a affirmé que l'hélicoptère avait pour objectif d'atterrir sur le territoire cambodgien. Une centaine de balles l'en a empêché et il a dû effectuer un atterrissage d'urgence du côté thaïlandais de la frontière, après que sa partie arrière ait été endommagée.

Dy Phen a fourni une explication à cette tentative d'incursion sur le territoire cambodgien : selon lui, l'objectif des militaires thaïlandais est d'ériger des statues du Bouddha le long de la frontière, ce qui leur permettrait de renforcer leur présence dans cette zone.

[cup-O-coffee]

Some of these posts describe it as if the poster were right there when it happened. Others describe the incident as if they were privy to the contents of the Thai and Cambodian soldier's reports.

After all, only the soldiers on the scene truly know, with their training, what was going on, and any intentions, actions and reactions involved.

Once issues like these get into the hands of higher ups and "officials" they get spun out of order and lose all facts that lead back to the truth.

So, this entire incident is clearly not for the public, as there are no official reports that we are being provided. All hearsay.

I submit that we can only surmise due to scant evidence. We don't even know the angle of entry, which would identify the general location of the airship with respect to the gunmen (Cambodian or Thai infiltrators) who fired upon it.

Since Thailand is not jumping about and rattling their sabers, I suspect the pilots miscalculated their flight path. After all, there is a reason a fella gets a bloody nose, no matter how insignificant.

Another unintelligent article to stir the pot. Where is the Editor-in-Chief throughout all this rubbish that gets let out into the public?

[geovalin]

So, this entire incident is clearly not for the public, as there are no official reports that we are being provided. All hearsay.

Of course! The real reason is probably a business dispute.Cambodian and Thai soldiers are very close friends and business partners and, sometimes, there are small frictions, this is normal. No need to tell more.