Lease Legality

[Khun Jean]

This was the topic http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/166345-the-303030-year-lease-final-discussion/

[ludditeman]

@New007

So you are buying the house on a lease AND giving them a monthly rental as well.

Sounds like a great deal for them.

A better deal for you would just to rent it for 4,000bht a month and put the 1.8Mbht in a bank.

We don't know where it is so can't give an opinion on the rental value.

In CM rental on that sort of place is 8-10k per month (or 3M outright purchase)

In NR rental would be 4-5k per month (or 1.5M outright purchase)

Edited January 20, 2012 by ludditeman

[New007]

Well, the money is collected by the emple committee every month as far as I understood. We've seen the lease contract and the contract says that after the 30 years they will be re-negotiating the terms.

The property is located in Nakhon Pathom province.

Yes, the house is up for sale. The owner don't want to rent them out. They prefer to sell them. I think for the first ten years the terms are really reasonable. We want to run a little business in it and hope to pay the lease from it. We currently own a two-storey house but we're looking for a buyer for that than. We've decided against renting it out since Thai tennants aren't very keen on maintainence! But I think we get a fair deal there! Thanks for your input guys.

[New007]

The land is owned by a temple which is located opposite the property. We've talked to people in town that live on leased temple land and they have lived there for 40+ years. They never had problems and there contracts were renewed with a slight increase of course, but not the mentioned 2 or 3 times as much!! What do you think of a temple as lessor? There will always be monks in Thailand to run a temple, so people don't die or they transfer it to their daughters or sons!

[johnnyk]

30+30+30 is fantasyland. Developers hoodwink gullible falangs with this one all the time. 30 max is all that is recognized, the rest is bull feces. A lease must be honoured by the heirs or assigns but they are under NO obligation to renew for an additional 30 years.

[guzzi850m2]

I have a question regarding leasing:

I just finished paying my house off (to the developer) and now has to do the transfer.

The land office fee is app 220k bath total which I has to pay as pr contract. because I been living interest free in the house for app. 2 years with monthly payments to them.

2 independent law offices in Pattaya have told me that I have to transfer two times in order to get my name in the Chanote and that it will be the most safe option for me? I will be leasing from my wife and we have a 2 year old boy. I am fine with leasing for only 30 years as I will be 80 years old then (if still alive, he-he).

Why is it necessary to transfer 2 times and pay 440 k bath instead of 220k bath?

Hope somebody here can enlightening me, thanks.

[Gary A]

If you are leasing from your wife, why bother with a lease at all? You will be just throwing away your money.

[thaiwanderer]

I have a question regarding leasing:

I just finished paying my house off (to the developer) and now has to do the transfer.

The land office fee is app 220k bath total which I has to pay as pr contract. because I been living interest free in the house for app. 2 years with monthly payments to them.

2 independent law offices in Pattaya have told me that I have to transfer two times in order to get my name in the Chanote and that it will be the most safe option for me? I will be leasing from my wife and we have a 2 year old boy. I am fine with leasing for only 30 years as I will be 80 years old then (if still alive, he-he).

Why is it necessary to transfer 2 times and pay 440 k bath instead of 220k bath?

Hope somebody here can enlightening me, thanks.

Could you perhaps clarify what the 2 are to be?

I assume the first is transfer of freehold from to developer to your wife, the second is a lease from your wife to you (strictly speaking not a transfer).

As it stands of course they are two separate transactions so I'm struggling to see why you would think they are or could be one?

You talk of 'most safe option' - are you aware your wife can in the future cancel a lease she's granted to you?

Edited February 4, 2012 by thaiwanderer

[guzzi850m2]

Could you perhaps clarify what the 2 are to be?

I assume the first is transfer of freehold from to developer to your wife, the second is a lease from your wife to you (strictly speaking not a transfer).

As it stands of course they are two separate transactions so I'm struggling to see why you would think they are or could be one?

You talk of 'most safe option' - are you aware your wife can in the future cancel a lease she's granted to you?

I am by no means an expert on this subject but I will try to explain what the experts have told me.

No we are talking about 2 transfers in the land office, first to my wife and then another where my name will be in the bottom ot the Chanote, thats why the 2X 220 k bath.

I will also be leasing the property for 30 years from my wife and she signs a mortgage agreement. I am having another meeting with a Thai lawyer on Monday and hopes he can explain why this 2X transfers are necessary.

Are you saying my wife can cancel the lease agreement at any time? If so I will assume that she will have to compensate me?

[taninthai]

Are you actually paying to lease of your wife if so how bizarre and what a strange relationship

[guzzi850m2]

Are you actually paying to lease of your wife if so how bizarre and what a strange relationship

No I am not paying for the lease.

Nobody knows how a marriage will be in say 10 -15 years time, so I am taking my precautions. I know quite a few guys that has lost big money in the West & here due to a divorce so why not try to protect myself. Your statement is very naive.

[taninthai]

Not naive at all just if you don't trust your wife why go down the road of buying something you can't legally own and will never be in your name you have already admitted you are no expert in this your wife can cancel the lease whenever she wants so it's not worth the paper it's written on ,so you are looking at paying 220k minimum for a piece of paper that is worth nothing now tell me who is naive.

I would look at doing more research into how you can protect yourself properly if you are going the lease route.

Edited February 4, 2012 by taninthai

[thaiwanderer]

Could you perhaps clarify what the 2 are to be?

I assume the first is transfer of freehold from to developer to your wife, the second is a lease from your wife to you (strictly speaking not a transfer).

As it stands of course they are two separate transactions so I'm struggling to see why you would think they are or could be one?

You talk of 'most safe option' - are you aware your wife can in the future cancel a lease she's granted to you?

I am by no means an expert on this subject but I will try to explain what the experts have told me.

No we are talking about 2 transfers in the land office, first to my wife and then another where my name will be in the bottom ot the Chanote, thats why the 2X 220 k bath.

I will also be leasing the property for 30 years from my wife and she signs a mortgage agreement. I am having another meeting with a Thai lawyer on Monday and hopes he can explain why this 2X transfers are necessary.

Are you saying my wife can cancel the lease agreement at any time? If so I will assume that she will have to compensate me?

Your wife can cancel the lease and mortgage and any other agreement made between you and may not need to compensate you (opinions differ). The structure your intent on also appears illegal and you both may well be comitting an imprisonable offence.

That's assuming of course the land office accept the lease and mortgage and for example don't just only allow the registration of the freehold to your wife!

How much is the tea money?

Since you appear interested in protecting yourself there are varying other ways to do it.

On your structure, the first transfer will be the freehold to your wife.

The lease and mortgage will be two further and technically separate transactions.

- therefore three transactions - so I'm a little confused as to why you are questioning why its 2 fees instead of 1????

You talk of your name on the chanote but that means little since it might be for for the lease, the mortgage and / or for something else. What do you think its for? And are you aware it offers no real protection?

Edited February 5, 2012 by thaiwanderer

[guzzi850m2]

[

Your wife can cancel the lease and mortgage and any other agreement made between you and may not need to compensate you (opinions differ). The structure your intent on also appears illegal and you both may well be comitting an imprisonable offence.

That's assuming of course the land office accept the lease and mortgage and for example don't just only allow the registration of the freehold to your wife!

How much is the tea money?

Since you appear interested in protecting yourself there are varying other ways to do it.

On your structure, the first transfer will be the freehold to your wife.

The lease and mortgage will be two further and technically separate transactions.

- therefore three transactions - so I'm a little confused as to why you are questioning why its 2 fees instead of 1????

You talk of your name on the chanote but that means little since it might be for for the lease, the mortgage and / or for something else. What do you think its for? And are you aware it offers no real protection?

Thanks for your inputs.

The more I hear about leasing the more confused I get. I have told my lawyer that I will do only one transfer (app. 220k bath) as I can't see the purpose of all these transfers. We will also go and talk to the landoffice soon and hear what they say.

After some hard thinking over the weekend I have come to the conclusion that I will choose to trust my wife whom I know for app 7 years and we have a lovely + 2 year old son and plan to have another child.

I think in case of divorce we will have to split all assets in 1/2 and that is good enough for me.

[thaiwanderer]

[

Your wife can cancel the lease and mortgage and any other agreement made between you and may not need to compensate you (opinions differ). The structure your intent on also appears illegal and you both may well be comitting an imprisonable offence.

That's assuming of course the land office accept the lease and mortgage and for example don't just only allow the registration of the freehold to your wife!

How much is the tea money?

Since you appear interested in protecting yourself there are varying other ways to do it.

On your structure, the first transfer will be the freehold to your wife.

The lease and mortgage will be two further and technically separate transactions.

- therefore three transactions - so I'm a little confused as to why you are questioning why its 2 fees instead of 1????

You talk of your name on the chanote but that means little since it might be for for the lease, the mortgage and / or for something else. What do you think its for? And are you aware it offers no real protection?

Thanks for your inputs.

The more I hear about leasing the more confused I get. I have told my lawyer that I will do only one transfer (app. 220k bath) as I can't see the purpose of all these transfers. We will also go and talk to the landoffice soon and hear what they say.

After some hard thinking over the weekend I have come to the conclusion that I will choose to trust my wife whom I know for app 7 years and we have a lovely + 2 year old son and plan to have another child.

I think in case of divorce we will have to split all assets in 1/2 and that is good enough for me.

Understandably confusing, but the purpose of the 2nd and 3rd transactions is YOU.

One transaction alone will just be the freehold to your wife.

Before the land office register it they will require:

her to prove she's buying with her own money;

or ;

you to declare its her own money alone and the land is her Sin Suan Tua (separate/personal property) rather than Sin Somros (community/marital property).

Experiences and opinions on how this plays out at divorce differ.

[Khun Jean]

After some hard thinking over the weekend I have come to the conclusion that I will choose to trust my wife whom I know for app 7 years and we have a lovely + 2 year old son and plan to have another child.

I think in case of divorce we will have to split all assets in 1/2 and that is good enough for me.

Split all assets except the land. Meaning a lot less than you think, a lot less!

The best thing (for you) is to put the land in your wifes mothers name and get a usufruct for life

A standard usufruct will cost you around 120 baht. A lease will have tax implications and is limited to 30 years,

If your wife has brothers and sisters it can be a problem when her mother dies, not for you but for your wife and child. If it is certain your wife will inherit it then it is not a problem for your wife.

If under those conditions it is a big problem for your wife (it should not unless a large percentage is her personal money), think very hard why.....

Edited February 6, 2012 by Khun Jean

[guzzi850m2]

Been talking to a real Thai lawyer today and he told me that a 30 year lease that will paid at the land office after or during the transfer (paid for the whole 30 years period in one go) can't be canceled by anybody.

A 30 year lease is good enough for me, when it expire I will be 80 years old, if I am still alive or perhaps already expired, he-he. If I am alive at that age and my wife has managed to put up with me for so long can likely take 10 years more with me if needed.

Thanks for the tip about usufruct but It is really not an option for us.

[thaiwanderer]

Been talking to a real Thai lawyer today and he told me that a 30 year lease that will paid at the land office after or during the transfer (paid for the whole 30 years period in one go) can't be canceled by anybody.

A 30 year lease is good enough for me, when it expire I will be 80 years old, if I am still alive or perhaps already expired, he-he. If I am alive at that age and my wife has managed to put up with me for so long can likely take 10 years more with me if needed.

Thanks for the tip about usufruct but It is really not an option for us.

If lease to you is granted by your wife it CAN be cancelled. The lawyer is wrong, you misinterpreted them or you meant to post 'other than if its a lease from the wife'.

CCC Section 1469. Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage, provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

[taninthai]

Been talking to a real Thai lawyer today and he told me that a 30 year lease that will paid at the land office after or during the transfer (paid for the whole 30 years period in one go) can't be canceled by anybody.

A 30 year lease is good enough for me, when it expire I will be 80 years old, if I am still alive or perhaps already expired, he-he. If I am alive at that age and my wife has managed to put up with me for so long can likely take 10 years more with me if needed.

Thanks for the tip about usufruct but It is really not an option for us.

Most lawyers will just tell you what you want to hear or tell you anything to seal the deal look at the other thread the sales rep told the op once he has the 30 year lease he can just go land office pay 1% and change to 60 years lol

[guzzi850m2]

If lease to you is granted by your wife it CAN be canceled. The lawyer is wrong, you misinterpreted them or you meant to post 'other than if its a lease from the wife'.

CCC Section 1469. Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage, provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

Well well, the lawyer I used today have helped me in the past with company set up for my previous house. Todays visit at his office was free of charge.

Have anybody here heard about a house lease contract wife/husband has been canceled, using CCC Section 1469?

[thaiwanderer]

If lease to you is granted by your wife it CAN be canceled. The lawyer is wrong, you misinterpreted them or you meant to post 'other than if its a lease from the wife'.

CCC Section 1469. Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage, provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

Well well, the lawyer I used today have helped me in the past with company set up for my previous house. Todays visit at his office was free of charge.

Have anybody here heard about a house lease contract wife/husband has been canceled, using CCC Section 1469?

Classic. What was the lawyer's advice on that?

[guzzi850m2]

Classic. What was the lawyer's advice on that?

What do you mean? He did set up a company for me then with me as chairman (49%) and different nominees. I sold the house after 3 years with a small profit (app.2 years ago) and dissolved the company as the company was only there to own land/house.

[Khun Jean]

Dump the lawyer quickly or find out the consequences later.

Guess what, he will not be accountable (very convenient) and you will have nothing.

But it is "Up to you".

My advise would be to follow the written law not some lawyer who knows you don't know and makes money distorting the truth.

Thaiwanderer even gave you the section in which it says very clearly that a contract between spouses can be dissolved. Actually it is not 'can' be but 'have to'. Again the lawyer is wrong! As are most unfortunately.

Why am i hearing the song 'another bites the dust' in my head.

I don't understand something. You ask for advice, and if the advice is not 100% what you would like to hear it is better to ignore it? Do you think the lawyer has more knowledge? Go read some www.samuiforsale.com . Another laywer but one that is not twisting the truth to make some money.

You do want some form of protection, right?

Read that site, learn and then TELL your lawyer what to do or by then you know enough to do it yourself.

Some more for your enjoyment: http://www.thailandlawonline.com/view/11-is-my-wife-entitled-to-the-house.html

Edited February 6, 2012 by Khun Jean

[guzzi850m2]

Khun Jean

Thanks for the advise and links and no I didn't mean to sound like I don't want to listen to the experts.

I have decided to trust my wife, yes I know it sounds stupid but that me, as I wrote earlier I been together with my wife for almost 7 years and we have a kid.

For me to loose our house in case of divorce would not be the end of the world to me. I have a quite good job in the oil off-shore industry and my salary goes to a bank in Singapore. I still have 15 years of work left in me so when the time comes to retire I will have good pension fonds waiting in Singapore and Denmark.

To me the end of the world would be not able to see my son grow and develop, fxxx the house.

[thaiwanderer]

Classic. What was the lawyer's advice on that?

What do you mean? He did set up a company for me then with me as chairman (49%) and different nominees. I sold the house after 3 years with a small profit (app.2 years ago) and dissolved the company as the company was only there to own land/house.

It was a throw away comment more aimed at what we can tell about your lawyer.

Good for you, you broke the law, got away with it and profited.

There might never have been a problem with your illegal company structure but its anyway different from thinking a lease, mortgage or whatever to and from your wife gave some protection or even a brittle appearance of some when right from the outset it gave absolutely none.

It's not our place to speculate on whether you should or shouldn't trust your wife, but you talked of wanting protection and yet invoked the advice of a 'real thai lawyer' who is (i) giving wholly incorrect advise (if reported by you accurately) and (ii) has already assisted in setting up a company for you to commit an imprisonable offence and potential forfeiture of your investment (without clarifying whether he advised you of this).

You say you've now decided to trust your wife though I interpret your talk of offshore work and pensions etc that you may not be considering her entitlement (and trusting her) to anything beyond the land?

At the very least, good for you on that. I've posted here a number of times that usually I see the differing land rights for thai / farang relationships as a perfect reason to give the thai spouse the land from the outset, rather than just give the appearance they have the land in the hope of successfully breaking the law. I do sometimes wonder when posters talk of protecting themselves regarding land what provision if any they are making for their spouses should things go wrong, especially since they are already planning for it themselves!

Edited February 6, 2012 by thaiwanderer

[ludditeman]

I have decided to trust my wife, yes I know it sounds stupid but that me, as I wrote earlier I been together with my wife for almost 7 years and we have a kid.

You can often trust you wife while she loves you, when she no longer loves you then you can't trust her.

The 'no longer' bit comes at the end of the relationship. Having kids together makes little difference at the endgame.

PS

If you have children with her, why not put the land in the kids name, whith a provision giving you use of the land.

Saves on the lease fees, stops your wife breaking any lease in event of divorce.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ludditeman

[haveaniceday]

My ex is trying to make life very hard for my new wife and has told her that she is the rightful owner of everything, even demanding access to the land / house as she sees fit. All cobblers of course but how does Thai law view this?

Does the Ex have legal access to the land in and entry rights to the house?

[guzzi850m2]

Lets face it: Non Thais can't own land here unless you invest is it 40 mill bath which I don't have and if I had I would not do that anyway.

Many expats have been trying this and this in order to "own" land here, incl myself but I must admit than when I went to this adviser last Friday and he told me okay we do this and this but then we also has to do this and this. Transfer 2 times at the land office and mortgage for the wife to sign and making last will for her and me and bla bla, I said to myself: who do you think you are kidding buddy? If the marriage goes tits up and it ends in court its very likely that they will rule in her favor anyway so why fight it.

Yes I wrote that I decided to trust my wife! A bit silly statement as I been trusting her all the time, I mean I go to work all over the world 2 month at the time before having 2 month holiday here and I never been nervous that she been up to something when I am gone. If I felt it that way my life would be hell when out working.

Most marriages goes tits up sooner or later (world wide-statically facts), most older expats in Thailand have a divorce behind them in their home country but hopefully grown up kids before that happened and many of them come out here fell in love again with a much younger woman/girl. I wish them all good luck with that but please don't invest more in her what you can walk away from and still have money to live for.

I can write a novel about my marriage and why I think it will last but I will not do that, you would be bored to hell, lol.

I prefer family life any day, it gives me a felling of security (my family/house) in an ever increasing uncertain world, yes a bit optimistic but whats wrong with that. If I lived alone I would properly hit the bars every night and have many partners, I tried that and its okay for a period but boring in the long run.

[rayinkrabi]

My ex is trying to make life very hard for my new wife and has told her that she is the rightful owner of everything, even demanding access to the land / house as she sees fit. All cobblers of course but how does Thai law view this?

Does the Ex have legal access to the land in and entry rights to the house?

I thought there was something that stated she could 'inspect' on appointment but following your reply I've re-read the lease (at least another 3 times) and can't find it!

No problem now tho, we had a brief period of grief from her during which time I pointed out that she is likely to get herself into trouble with the law, this didn't seem to worry her at all so we simply asked others to have a quiet word on our behalf (no silly threats of violence or anything illegal, just straight talking of what is right & wrong) this seemed to do the trick.

To be honest I didn't / don't really want to involve the police or go down the 'legal route' unless I really have to as I simply don't trust the authorities here.