Lighting

[boppia]

Just wondering what others think of the lighting in Thailand. Most Thai homes have built in flourescent lighting. You won't find stuff like this used in many homes where I come from(US). What is better for your eyes, flourescent bulbs or the traditional light bulb( sorry i don't know the name for this type)? Any opinons?

[Tywais]

Just wondering what others think of the lighting in Thailand. Most Thai homes have built in flourescent lighting. You won't find stuff like this used in many homes where I come from(US). What is better for your eyes, flourescent bulbs or the traditional light bulb( sorry i don't know the name for this type)? Any opinons?

Traditional light bulbs are tungsten lamps. The fluorescent gives a better light distribution but the key thing is that they are much more energy efficient and last longer, so much cheaper in the long run to operate. The fluorescent also has broader spectrum (whiter) then tungsten which is weighted towards brown/red. I certainly prefer fluorescent when I'm reading or working, somewhat smoother on the eyes. (IMO)

Edited November 28, 2005 by tywais

[h90]

flourescent is a lot better for safe energy. USA is very backwards on that. But the cheap flourescent type may cause you headache, is definitly not good for you. I guess there are expensive ones which are better.

the normal bulbs are a unbelivable waste of power, but good for the eyes.

I as well don't understand, anything for pollution, take care nature save energy, Thailand is middleage. But for lighting they save....

Just wondering what others think of the lighting in Thailand. Most Thai homes have built in flourescent lighting. You won't find stuff like this used in many homes where I come from(US). What is better for your eyes, flourescent bulbs or the traditional light bulb( sorry i don't know the name for this type)? Any opinons?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[boppia]

I thought that flourescent lights flickered so fast that you can see the flicker whereas the tungsten bulbs didn't flicker at all. I guess I am wrong? But you think the flourscent bulbs are better for the eyes.

To me they seem to omit a wierd glow rather than light like the other bulbs. I haven't had a tungsten lightbulb for years(been out here so long!) so I have no way to compare the two. It could be that when I got out here my eyes started getting weaker and this caused me to think there was a difference in the light emitted from these flourescent bulbs.

[boppia]

I guess I posted a bit to slowly. thanks. maybe I am not so far off in my thinking.

[chownah]

Fluorescent tubes come in different colors so you can choose the color you like best or even mix two colors.

There's a relatively new thing called LED lighting....they are efficient (don't know how they compare to fluorescents in this respect) and they last a long long time...and the color choices are almost limitless....also the light can be directed more easily to where you want it so with the right fixtures you can even use smaller units.

Edited November 28, 2005 by chownah

[bino]

Traditional light bulbs are tungsten lamps.  The fluorescent gives a better light distribution but the key thing is that they are much more energy efficient and last longer, so much cheaper in the long run to operate. The fluorescent also has broader spectrum (whiter) then tungsten which is weighted towards brown/red.  I certainly prefer fluorescent when I'm reading or working, somewhat smoother on the eyes. (IMO)

I agree completely with the energy saving aspect of fluorescent lighting. My place has a fluorescent fixture on the ceiling of each room, with an 18 watt "ring" inside. They provide an ample amount of light, and seem to last forever. (I've only ever replaced one in the two years that I have lived here, and have no idea how long it had been in service prior to our arrival.) From this point of view it is easy to see why they are popular in Thailand.

However, I hardly use them. I find fluorescent lighting to be too cold and "institutional"... feel like I am in a classroom, hospital, etc. I greatly prefer the warmer brown / red of a tungsten (I always called them "incandescent") bulb for a more pleasant atmosphere. I have several lamps with 40 watt bulbs that I use all the time. Only turn on the fluorescents when I drop something small on the floor, cleaning, etc.

Is it only me, or does anyone else notice that tungsten / incandescent bulbs in Thailand generally don't last as long as bulbs at home? Seems that I only get 4-8 weeks out of a bulb before it burns out. Has anyone found a decent brand that lasts longer than others?

[Buff-horns]

Health Effects

Migraine headaches, loss of concentration, and general irritation have all been blamed on fluorescent lights. These problems are caused not by the lights themselves, but by the way they are run. Common magnetic ballasts run the lamps at the same 60 cycles per second that is delivered by our electrical grid. This causes the lamps to flicker noticeably 120 times per second, every time the alternating current switches direction. Approximately one-third of the human population is sensitive to this flicker on a subliminal level.

The cure is to use electronic ballasts, which operate at around 30,000 cycles per second. This rapid cycling totally eliminates perceptible flicker and avoids the ensuing health complaints.

At the very least, according to some of them, certain types of fluorescent tubes leak radiation and some may lead to a depletion of brain chemicals such as serotonin and melatonin. This can lead to the kind of depression that in extreme situations precipitates suicide.

[Guest endure]

Health Effects

Migraine headaches, loss of concentration, and general irritation have all been blamed on fluorescent lights. These problems are caused not by the lights themselves, but by the way they are run. Common magnetic ballasts run the lamps at the same 60 cycles per second that is delivered by our electrical grid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thailand runs at 50Hz. Is the specific frequency the problem or just the fact that it's quite low?

[h90]

here even worse 50 cycles....

Health Effects

Migraine headaches, loss of concentration, and general irritation have all been blamed on fluorescent lights. These problems are caused not by the lights themselves, but by the way they are run. Common magnetic ballasts run the lamps at the same 60 cycles per second that is delivered by our electrical grid. This causes the lamps to flicker noticeably 120 times per second, every time the alternating current switches direction. Approximately one-third of the human population is sensitive to this flicker on a subliminal level.

The cure is to use electronic ballasts, which operate at around 30,000 cycles per second. This rapid cycling totally eliminates perceptible flicker and avoids the ensuing health complaints.

At the very least, according to some of them, certain types of fluorescent tubes leak radiation and some may lead to a depletion of brain chemicals such as serotonin and melatonin. This can lead to the kind of depression that in extreme situations precipitates suicide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Tywais]

Health Effects

Migraine headaches, loss of concentration, and general irritation have all been blamed on fluorescent lights. These problems are caused not by the lights themselves, but by the way they are run. Common magnetic ballasts run the lamps at the same 60 cycles per second that is delivered by our electrical grid.

Thailand runs at 50Hz. Is the specific frequency the problem or just the fact that it's quite low?

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergonomics/...ng_flicker.html

http://www.gaiam.com/retail/gai_content/le...article_id=1780

[Leo_Moscow]

Fluorescent tubes come in different colors so you can choose the color you like best or even mix two colors.

There's a relatively new thing called LED lighting....they are efficient (don't know how they compare to fluorescents in this respect) and they last a long long time...and the color choices are almost limitless....also the light can be directed more easily to where you want it so with the right fixtures you can even use smaller units.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

from some period we used both it at summer houses - led and flour painting, looks great, works perfect - led power up painting fo rest of dark

[Buff-horns]

Health Effects

At the very least, according to some of them, certain types of fluorescent tubes leak radiation and some may lead to a depletion of brain chemicals such as serotonin and melatonin. This can lead to the kind of depression that in extreme situations precipitates suicide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wonder if all the deceased balcony jumpers had fluorescent lights?

[lovejoy]

i have used L.E.D's for quite a while for bar and nightclub lighting,you have countless options for there applications and they can last up to 400,000 hrs.a little more expensive but evens out over time,you can also programme them very easy and they have a full range of color

this is the company i mostly use http://www.colorkinetics.com/ have a look in there showcase.

another good site for lighting is www.paintwithlights.com

[John K]

I don’t know if this is a health question or not, but if it is, simply what most resembles natural light is best for you. The color of the sun is bright yellow. However the bright direct light can give headaches, so backlighting is the best option. If you are reading then a small spot reading lamp. Colored light can actually strain your eyes.

[h90]

Does anyone know how this device for 30.000 cycles per second is called here in Thailand and/or where I can buy it?

thank....

Health Effects

Migraine headaches, loss of concentration, and general irritation have all been blamed on fluorescent lights. These problems are caused not by the lights themselves, but by the way they are run. Common magnetic ballasts run the lamps at the same 60 cycles per second that is delivered by our electrical grid. This causes the lamps to flicker noticeably 120 times per second, every time the alternating current switches direction. Approximately one-third of the human population is sensitive to this flicker on a subliminal level.

The cure is to use electronic ballasts, which operate at around 30,000 cycles per second. This rapid cycling totally eliminates perceptible flicker and avoids the ensuing health complaints.

At the very least, according to some of them, certain types of fluorescent tubes leak radiation and some may lead to a depletion of brain chemicals such as serotonin and melatonin. This can lead to the kind of depression that in extreme situations precipitates suicide.

[Carmine6]

Does anyone know how this device for 30.000 cycles per second is called here in Thailand and/or where I can buy it?

thank....

Health Effects

Migraine headaches, loss of concentration, and general irritation have all been blamed on fluorescent lights. These problems are caused not by the lights themselves, but by the way they are run. Common magnetic ballasts run the lamps at the same 60 cycles per second that is delivered by our electrical grid. This causes the lamps to flicker noticeably 120 times per second, every time the alternating current switches direction. Approximately one-third of the human population is sensitive to this flicker on a subliminal level.

The cure is to use electronic ballasts, which operate at around 30,000 cycles per second. This rapid cycling totally eliminates perceptible flicker and avoids the ensuing health complaints.

At the very least, according to some of them, certain types of fluorescent tubes leak radiation and some may lead to a depletion of brain chemicals such as serotonin and melatonin. This can lead to the kind of depression that in extreme situations precipitates suicide.

All flourescent lights have ballasts built in. Lights with better (electronic) ballasts cost more money and I'm not sure you can retrofit a fixture for much less than a new fixture, unless you're good with electrical. I believe the ballast is the part that usually goes bad first. For example, if your light starts taking longer to light up when you turn it on, it's the ballast.

As for the US, there are actually a ton of flourescent lights, just not so much in houses. They're usually in kitchens and garages since the light color isn't as appealing for most home uses. But this is changing as better color lights have come out. I have the coiled ones in every room except the bathroom with has a standard incandescent. They're also used in office buildings, schools and other large facilities where the energy savings makes a lot of sense.

LEDs are just now coming to the market for home use and these will probably dominate as the price drops. Very efficient, durable, and much more compact that flourescents. US traffic lights are being switched over to LEDs due to the energy savings and long life of the bulbs, so if you look carefully you see lots of little LED lights making one big red or green light.

[sierra01]

I don't mind flourescent lighting, as long as it's bright enough to see what I'm doing, what annoys me is the time they take to come on. From new they come on quite quick, then after a short time they get slower, that's what I've found anyway.

[h90]

we have basically everywhere flourescent lights and I guess the cheapest available. Together with daily 12-14 hours computer work it makes my wife and me crazy now.

So if I understand it right, there are 2 different things:

The tube or however this part is called in english, if I buy a better one I get a more "natural" color but still the 50 Hz flickering

And the electronic ballast, can this be bought sepperate? Or will they look at me like I am from the moon (again) when I ask for a better ballast? (Mai mee)

Thanks

All flourescent lights have ballasts built in. Lights with better (electronic) ballasts cost more money and I'm not sure you can retrofit a fixture for much less than a new fixture, unless you're good with electrical. I believe the ballast is the part that usually goes bad first. For example, if your light starts taking longer to light up when you turn it on, it's the ballast.

As for the US, there are actually a ton of flourescent lights, just not so much in houses. They're usually in kitchens and garages since the light color isn't as appealing for most home uses. But this is changing as better color lights have come out. I have the coiled ones in every room except the bathroom with has a standard incandescent. They're also used in office buildings, schools and other large facilities where the energy savings makes a lot of sense.

LEDs are just now coming to the market for home use and these will probably dominate as the price drops. Very efficient, durable, and much more compact that flourescents. US traffic lights are being switched over to LEDs due to the energy savings and long life of the bulbs, so if you look carefully you see lots of little LED lights making one big red or green light.

Try to replace the "starter" it nearly costs nothing, maybe with a new one they start fast again (not tested, but would make sense in my opinion)

I don't mind flourescent lighting, as long as it's bright enough to see what I'm doing, what annoys me is the time they take to come on. From new they come on quite quick, then after a short time they get slower, that's what I've found anyway.

[Crossy]

Actually at 50Hz mains fluorescent lights flicker 100 times a second (twice per cycle), still give you a headache though.

Regular tubes have very sharp peaks in the light spectrum which can cause problems with colour rendition aggravating the headache problem. There are literally dozens of different colours and spectrums available including special ones for fish tanks and plant growth (do a web search for GroLux they are a really weird purple colour), just look at the website for a tube manufacturer to see what's available.

I'd go for 'daylight' or 'warm' tubes with a high frequency electronic ballast. No flicker, no starter to fail, instant startup, even more energy efficient and the tubes last even longer. BTW, nothing looks worse than a double fitting with tubes of different colours.

Since we are currently in rented accomodation I've not looked for electronic ballasts in Thailand, I am sure they are available though, just might need a bit of searching out.

You ought to be able to retro fit electronic ballasts in existing fittings but you will need some electrical nouse as it's not just a case of a like for like swap, not difficult though.

After all that, I really like low-voltage Halogen lights for reading.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Crossy

[Carmine6]

we have basically everywhere flourescent lights and I guess the cheapest available. Together with daily 12-14 hours computer work it makes my wife and me crazy now.

So if I understand it right, there are 2 different things:

The tube or however this part is called in english, if I buy a better one I get a more "natural" color but still the 50 Hz flickering

And the electronic ballast, can this be bought sepperate? Or will they look at me like I am from the moon (again) when I ask for a better ballast? (Mai mee)

Thanks

Try to replace the "starter" it nearly costs nothing, maybe with a new one they start fast again (not tested, but would make sense in my opinion)

I don't mind flourescent lighting, as long as it's bright enough to see what I'm doing, what annoys me is the time they take to come on. From new they come on quite quick, then after a short time they get slower, that's what I've found anyway.

You're right, it's the starter, not the ballast on the startup. The ballast keeps the light going after that.

If you're talking about long straight tubes, you may be able to do this but you have to be handy as there's wiring involved to swap the ballast. You might have to change the starter with that too. I don't think they'll look at you crazy since the lights are fairly common and I'm sure it's common to fix them when they go bad. For round ceiling lights, maybe the parts will be available, maybe not. They never seem to be interchangeable in the US.

Frankly, I'm not one of those who can pick out the flickering, it's only the color that I hate. I have small standard ballast lights, but with a nicer color. Thai lights are just too blue. There's a color rating system that may be stamped on the bulbs that's explained at this website. Good thing I found it as I thought the colors went the other way.

http://www.topbulb.com/lighting_information/info_color.asp

One way around the ballast issue may be a low wattage normal light close to your work space. The flicker will still be there on the space lights, but the regular light won't flicker and it may be enough.

[h90]

that are the round tubes.

Does every ballast work for every tube? I mean a ballast for the straight ones and the round ones is the same?

I remember years ago a friend told me that he uses the electronic from the flourescent lightings with socket (they are meant to replace the tungston ones) for starting his flourescent tubes, but I can not remember the full story anymore.

I can see the 100 Hz (but having doubts, when I look at the light I see some "vibration" of the light), but on the other hand when I set the monitor to 85 Hz I can not see any flickering, but at 60 Hz I can see it. so is it really 100 Hz or just 50 or do I see something different?????

Questions over Questions.......

I personaly love Quicksilver steam lamps. In the past I had to solder a lot smd electronic and my eyes are not the best and with a 400 Watt lamp of this I could see perfect, but I guess it kills the eyes very fast.

[Carmine6]

that are the round tubes.

Does every ballast work for every tube? I mean a ballast for the straight ones and the round ones is the same?

I remember years ago a friend told me that he uses the electronic from the flourescent lightings with socket (they are meant to replace the tungston ones) for starting his flourescent tubes, but I can not remember the full story anymore.

I can see the 100 Hz (but having doubts, when I look at the light I see some "vibration" of the light), but on the other hand when I set the monitor to 85 Hz I can not see any flickering, but at 60 Hz I can see it. so is it really 100 Hz or just 50 or do I see something different?????

Questions over Questions.......

I personaly love Quicksilver steam lamps. In the past I had to solder a lot smd electronic and my eyes are not the best and with a 400 Watt lamp of this I could see perfect, but I guess it kills the eyes very fast.

Sounds like a question for the store on whether a certain ballast will work with a certain bulb. I was thinking more of space inside the fixture. The long ones have a lot of room to work with and pretty much whatever size the new one was would fit in some way. Not sure how much room there is in the round fixtures. I'd wager those bulbs are also lower wattage too. If it's the right specs and you can get it in there, it wouldn't matter what fixture it was. But don't forget to check if you have to swap the starter too.

I'm not sure the flickering you're seeing is due to the 50hz. Could just be a worn out fixture. Can you see this with lights at other houses or maybe at food stalls?

[elkangorito]

Buff-horns & Crossy I believe are on the mark again, although there is an error with one of the diagrams displayed in the linked website, posted by Carmine6. Red is low frequency & therefore has a large wavelength. Violet is higher in frequency & therefore has a shorter wavelength.

Anyway, most fluoros have a number written on them. It will be between 800 & 900. The higher the number, the 'bluer' the colour. Commonly, 'warm white' tubes are best for good colour rendition.

The flickering may be due to the quality of the tube, a faulty or low quality ballast or bad quality supply electricity. Generally, under good supply conditions, there is no difference whatsoever between lights that are fed with a 50 or 60 Hertz supply.

As far as ballasts are concerned, there are 3 types; low power factor, high power factor & electronic.

Low Power Factor (0.5) ballasts absorb more energy due to it's inherent design (an inductor). High Power Factor (0.9+) ballasts use less energy as they are connected in parallel with a capacitor. Electronic ballasts are not inductive & therefore have an excellent power factor (close to 1.0). Inductive low PF ballasts waste about 45% of the total absorbed power & get very hot (which causes them to fail). If they are low quality, they may hum & generally don't last long. High PF ballasts are much more efficient. The ballast is used to limit the starting current of the tube. The 'starter' does not affect the 'flicker' of a tube.

Most fluoro fittings can be retro-fitted with electronic ballasts. Using one of these ballasts will increase the life of the tube & turning the tube on & off will not reduce the life of the tube as standard "starter/ballast" lights do.

All fluorescent tubes cannot be dimmed without shortening their life or damaging them. Only incandescant & halogen lights can be dimmed without damage.

It is a myth that low voltage (12 volt) halogen lighting is more efficient. This is because transformers are generally used with this type of lighting & has about a 50% energy loss through generated heat. The globes themselves are fine. These losses can be eliminated with the use of an electronic supply (commonly incorrectly called 'electronic transformers').

There are 4 things that determine the life of a light globe;

1) Quality of supplied electricity.

2) voltage.

3) temperature.

4) vibration.

Reducing the voltage to most lighting by about 5% will increase the life of the globe by up to 50%.

Most ballasts will work with most globes as long as one is sized correctly for the other (watts or amps).

[h90]

thanks for these informations!

I found out that the flickering is different on different lightings and position on the tube, so it (like you mentioned) something different than the 50 Hz. But even on a good working one, I can see something. Not really a flickering but somehow the light is not stable. It seems to differ also if I center the light or I see it from the nearly the end of the possible angle of my eyes. As well it differs if I am tired or not, simillar to a bad computer monitor, so higher frquenzy seems to make sense for me.

Halogen lights, even with perfect transformers can not be nearly as efficient as fluoros, but can beat standard tungston bulbs a lot (as lower voltage and as higher temp. you can do at tungston as better your performance will be in the bulb, transformer is a second story of course).

thanks

Buff-horns & Crossy I believe are on the mark again, although there is an error with one of the diagrams displayed in the linked website, posted by Carmine6. Red is low frequency & therefore has a large wavelength. Violet is higher in frequency & therefore has a shorter wavelength.

Anyway, most fluoros have a number written on them. It will be between 800 & 900. The higher the number, the 'bluer' the colour. Commonly, 'warm white' tubes are best for good colour rendition.

The flickering may be due to the quality of the tube, a faulty or low quality ballast or bad quality supply electricity. Generally, under good supply conditions, there is no difference whatsoever between lights that are fed with a 50 or 60 Hertz supply.

As far as ballasts are concerned, there are 3 types; low power factor, high power factor & electronic.

Low Power Factor (0.5) ballasts absorb more energy due to it's inherent design (an inductor). High Power Factor (0.9+) ballasts use less energy as they are connected in parallel with a capacitor. Electronic ballasts are not inductive & therefore have an excellent power factor (close to 1.0). Inductive low PF ballasts waste about 45% of the total absorbed power & get very hot (which causes them to fail). If they are low quality, they may hum & generally don't last long. High PF ballasts are much more efficient. The ballast is used to limit the starting current of the tube. The 'starter' does not affect the 'flicker' of a tube.

Most fluoro fittings can be retro-fitted with electronic ballasts. Using one of these ballasts will increase the life of the tube & turning the tube on & off will not reduce the life of the tube as standard "starter/ballast" lights do.

All fluorescent tubes cannot be dimmed without shortening their life or damaging them. Only incandescant & halogen lights can be dimmed without damage.

It is a myth that low voltage (12 volt) halogen lighting is more efficient. This is because transformers are generally used with this type of lighting & has about a 50% energy loss through generated heat. The globes themselves are fine. These losses can be eliminated with the use of an electronic supply (commonly incorrectly called 'electronic transformers').

There are 4 things that determine the life of a light globe;

1) Quality of supplied electricity.

2) voltage.

3) temperature.

4) vibration.

Reducing the voltage to most lighting by about 5% will increase the life of the globe by up to 50%.

Most ballasts will work with most globes as long as one is sized correctly for the other (watts or amps).

[Ulysses G.]

[Crossy]

Went shopping yesterday (for something else).

High frequency electronic ballasts are available in Homepro and probably most decent electrical retailers. Priced 300-500 Baht. Make sure you get the right one for your tube wattage.

Bye bye flicker

[h90]

thanks crossy......

Will do that next week :-)

Went shopping yesterday (for something else).

High frequency electronic ballasts are available in Homepro and probably most decent electrical retailers. Priced 300-500 Baht. Make sure you get the right one for your tube wattage.

Bye bye flicker